₦airaland Forum

Jozzy4:
You are silly, it mentions that he is firstborn already in some areas . Creation and the dead

Are you denying he is firstborn from the dead already. ? Or is he might become ? ...

Empty skull read my post again!

Jozzy4:
I know you will act stupid, that's why I added that Wikipedia quote that mentions what is meant by second person of Trinity, God the son

If not because you're a lying liar and don't have single iota of shame

You claimed "Hahahaha they said he exist as God the son before creation,..."

Yet from your links no where was the phrase "He exists as GOD THE SON" appear but you still have audacity to say someone act stupid.

Continue in your delusions

Barristter07:
O.ma se o .

Are you this dull, if he is firstborn in ALL things , does that not include been firstborn of Creation as well ?

O ma she o,

Shallow empty skull...

The point isn't because He is first in ALL THINGS but "BECOMING THE FIRST again", after you have claimed He is the first already...

It's read "so He MIGHT BECOME the one WHO IS FIRST in all things"

Why must he be the one to BECOME FIRST in all things if he was already the first?

First BORN of creation, how exactly was he born ?

Are other creations not born as well ?

What made him First ?

Creations were created not born.

Like I said, of you are asked that question, your BORN will suddenly change to FIRSTCREATED.

Hypocrite!

Jozzy4:
From got question. A trinitarian website
, " His pre-existence means that, before He became a man and walked upon the earth, He was already in existence as the second Person of the triune God. "
https://www.gotquestions.org/amp/pre-existence-Jesus.html

Now can you see the reason why I said you people lack simple comprehension?

This is your claim "Hahahaha they said he exist as God the son before creation,..."

Does this validate your claim?

SMH

Jozzy4:
master of low comprehension . in ALL things dey there nah , All things , take for example his been firstborn from the dead , that happens years after creation has been done . All things imply many other things to happen

Does it change his been firstborn of all creation ?

Barister ask una: How was he born ?

He isn't a son, yet called Gods firstborn ( Heb 1)



How was he BORN ? Explain . we know he was Gods firstborn before coming to earth . making him a son

The most pathetic thing about you people is lack of comprehension by ignoring the key point in a statement.

Lemme come down to a Nursery school level because that's where you people belong.

1. Christ is the firstborn of all creations to you this means Christ is first

2. This means Christ has claimed this position long time ago.

3. Now, the scripture says, "so that he MIGHT BECOME the one who is FIRST in all things;" NWT

4. From here we can deduce that Christ is not the first if not there is no need "HE MIGHT BECOME...FIRST" again.

Lack of scriptural understanding everywhere!

Jozzy4:
Hahahaha they said he exist as God the son before creation, only given the name Jesus on earth . Stop lying

Why called God the son ?

Provide the proof for where they say He exists as God the Son before creation.

Image123:
So you will answer others and ANSWER EACH PERSON whether visible or faceless social media inquisitors like me, but me i should be looking for JW family up and down? Is that not double standards? So i can infer that you are not interested in being born again or going to heaven?

That's one thing you can't take away from JWs, hypocrisy!

Barristter07:
Who are those addressed ? Humans on earth.

No angel in heaven, nonsense!

You mean the angel can't say "for this reason the Holy thing to be born is already Son of God"

Explain what you mean by " Word" _ statement's of God ?

Is Jesus the word of God?
Does the word become flesh?

Show me where it was written that the Son became flesh?

Barristter07:
You clearly do not understand yourself anymore. How can someone Made many years after creation has began become the firstborn of creation , if not that he has existed as Firstborn when creation began ?

I repeat you lack scriptural understanding and even lack how words are structured.

Lemme use your own translation maybe your dull skull can grab it this time.

"so that he might become the one who is first in all things;"

Why must He be the ONE to become FIRST IN ALL THINGS if He was already THE FIRST CREATED

That's the question you should rap inside your skull

How was he the FIRST BORN of Creation is the real question , don't you think ?

How was he BORN ?

Listen to yourself

How was he Born as Firstborn of creation ?

Only if you understand what you're talking about.

I know if I ask you to explain it now, your firstborn will suddenly change to FIRSTCREATED

Barristter07:
Firstborn is a child to his Father . one exist before the other.
If your postulation holds true;
Firstborn of Creation, How is he the one born first among all Creations ?

Because if his Father - Firstborn started on earth, he couldn't be the firstborn of all creation .

If not because you lack scriptural understanding, you'll have known that Apostle Paul was talking about when the Word became part of creation...that's why he round it up by saying "that in ALL THINGS he(Jesus) might have the preeminence"

The question we need to ask is, if Jesus is actually the first created being, why must Jesus still be in ALL THINGS have the preeminence?

But this can only be true if Jesus who was not created but the creator entered His own creation to take the first position over everything He created.

Barristter07:
Your shallow understanding would have been corrected if you address the Father figure.

I've done that just that your understanding is very shallow

Because no man will be involved in Marys pregnancy as she once thought.

You've repeated this lie once again, after I corrected you in the first instance.

The child retains his Heavenly Father

Then the angel shouldn't have used "SHALL BE CALLED"

Thou I know you have problem with English.

Extremely funny.
The word, you mean statements or pronouncement of God ?

Address this first .

Ask John that!

Or Jesus isn't the Word of God anymore?

Show me where it was written that "the Son became flesh"

Barristter07:
The question is simple: Has God always been his Father or only became his Father when he was conceived ?

The incarnation of the Word begins to have a Father immediately He became part of creation.

Barristter07:
Face the issue.


God sent his son

After which came the statement " born of a woman "

Isn't that clear enough ? Galatian 4;4

Am asking: Was God his Father before human birth or only when he was born?

If Jesus has been the son from beginning, why did the Angel say the child SHALL BE CALLED the Son of God? again?

And I also asked you, show me where it is written that the Son became flesh...but you can see where it's boldly written in John 1:14 that "THE WORD BECAME FLESH"

EOD

TATIME:
I read from the beginning to the end of his thoughtless speech and i found out that he has spoken nonsense and ingredients!

Then you lack simple comprehension of you actually did.

His problem is not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish his own! Romans 10:2-3

Rather, you're the very one who raising your own righteousness above that of God.

Whatever Jesus said could only be FULLY understood by His faithful followers who keeps begging for God's holy spirit to comprehend all the utterances of Jesus[the WORD of God] John 1:1

So you're still begging for God's Holy Spirit, I thought the Holy Spirit has been given to your GB to interpret the scripture.

We can then ask, has the Holy Spirit been given to you since you've been begging for it?

All the stupid fellow claiming pastor needed to do is humbly ask TRUE Christians what Jesus' statement meant!

Who told you the man didn't know what Jesus meant?

Out of your stupidity just to promote your evil organization you lost your reasoning.

For instance he quoted Matthew 5:39.
There Jesus talked about a slap on the cheek. A slap is never meant to kill but to humiliate someone, like to hurt the person's feelings and makes him/her feel worthless. If a man is slapped the assaulter meant to ridicule, belittle, downgrade or silence the victim, and if a woman is slapped {by a man} it's a sign of worthlessness as women cherishes been loved!

ITK...

So Jesus wasn't really talking about physical assault but a gesture or expression meant to humiliate someone.

Then can't you see from the statement that the man understood that Jesus didn't talk about physical assault but to draw a conclusion

If that should happen to a Christian, Jesus is saying that a Christian should make the one with the devilish act feel that we're ever ready to lay low! Luke 14:7-11

Who doesn't know this

Apparently this arrogant man full of ego called Pastor wouldn't agree with all of these, so he can never understand what Jesus meant!

ITK....imagine, you are even attacking the man base on a cherry picked message.

Do you think, the way the OP put it down here is how the man actually presented the message on that day or that's all what the man said throughout?

TATIME:
Of course Maximus refused to argue!
And that's our ministry for you. We're to make simple presentations before STRANGERS and if our presentation didn't sound appealing to the listener we must take our leave.
That is what Maximus{a new convert} is saying, but when you're not seeing the face of the one questioning you and such an inquisitor is insisting you should make a response then some of our brothers will feel like showing the one asking that WE KNOW HOW TO ANSWER EACH PERSON whether visible or faceless social media inquisitors like you!

You're not arguing yet this thread has entered 32pages what if you people want to argue?

Besides, the useless excuse of not arguing will come when you people are in tight Conner and your devilish doctrines are exposed but immediately one of you come, raises another issue which is different from subject matter, the rest of you found your barking voice again.

Your brother will spam my mention when I even try to ignore him....and you can still say you don't argue. Well I know hypocrisy and JWs are like 5&6

Jozzy4:
They also say God the son exist before creation , didn't they ?

Why God the Son ?

They also said Jesus exists before creation...

Why Jesus

OkCornel:
@Jozzy4 and @emusan

What's your take on these verses? Does it in anyway resolve what you've been talking about?

Psalms 110 v 1-4;

1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

No this doesn't address it as both issues are different.

We are talking about the Son of God in His preexistence as Human

Jozzy4:
Nope , answer me.

Trinitarians maintain Jesus exist as God the son before his birth

Why is he a Son by identity ?

I have also told you that what they mean is that the identity of what the Son is before being part of creation.

Are you saying you haven't hard Trinitarians saying Jesus is the Word of God?

Jozzy4:
You didn't make any point different from what he said nah, The Angel only show that God is his Father .

Has God always been his Father or just on earth ?

Read my reply to your brother above!

It means you didn't read previous posts but just jump in and started asking questions

Jozzy4:
That's exactly what am asking

So he was a son by identity before coming to earth ?

Read my reply to your brother above, I have addressed that!

Jozzy4:
Are you still a trinitarian ?

Does God the Son exist before Jesus came to earth ?

Does the Father - Son relationship exist before creation ?

Your ignorance didn't know when people talk about God the Son, they only refer to the identity of what the Son is before coming to earth.

That's why I do say, without knowing when scripture is talking about Christ in His preexisting form and when He became part of the creation. You won't understand shittty

Barristter07:
Every reasonable reading the context knew that pronouncement came as a result of Mary wondering how this will be possible without an human Father . the angel only affirm that what will be born [She wasn't pregnant at The time] Retains God as his Father
Thereby a son of God

One funny thing about discussing with JWs is their outrightly lie and lack of scriptural understanding they always want to rub on your face.

"The pronouncement came as a result of Mary wondering" according to your lie yet Vs 32 clearly stated that "He shall be great, and shall be CALLED THE SON OF THE HIGHEST"

Even your NWT says "...And for that reason..." for what reason? Mary's wondering or because what God will do?

Barristter07:
God sent his son

After which came the statement " born of a woman "

Isn't that clear enough ? Galatian 4;4

Am asking: Was God his Father before birth or only when he was born?

The identity is not just The Word. The identity is a son
Romans quoted for you is enough point
God sent his son

After which came the statement " in the likeness of flesh "

@ the point of been sent and instructed on what to say, he is a son.

The @color says alot about the spirit in you!

Barristter07:
Totally off point . when was he sent ? Because scripture reveal at the point of been sent he was a son.
1. @,color part, which you highlight, Is God his Father before is coming to earth ?

2. When was he sent ?

I gave you an analysis of Angel Gabriel been sent , his identity as at when he was sent was called angel Gabriel, and when was he sent , From heaven or was it when he appreaed on earth ?

We need to know the identity of him who God send from heaven !

I'll only reply your last statement because any reasonable person can see I've done justice to your point about SENT

The identity of what God sent is clearly stated and spelled out in John 1:14 "And the WORD became flesh..."

In fact, had it been you can grab the concept of John 1:14 you'll see that it was after the WORD became flesh that His glory was only beheld as the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father"

Can you show us where it was written that the Son became flesh?

Barristter07:
Okay , let's see




@ highlighted, the main issue is when was he sent ?

Luke 1:26 said Angel Gabriel was SENT from God. When was he sent ? The moment he appeared on earth or BEFORE ?

===
As at the time of this declaration, Mary isn't even yet pregnant, Mary asked :

" How is this to be , since I am not having sexual relations with a man ? "

Emphasis on with a MAN.

The Angel now answered by explaining that what she will born will be a result of Gods operation through his holy spirit, thus what is given birth to will be Son of God . meaning he will retain God as his Father Just as he has always been

The text doesn't change the fact that he has been a son before his human birth. But he will retain God as Father . not a man as Mary think

Romans 8:3 ' God send his own son, in the likeness of sinful flesh '

God send who ? His son


Not as a spirit but in the likeness of man


Meaning God was his Father even in heaven .

If you had answered the question I posed to you concerning Galatians 4:4 , When was he sent ? In Marys womb or before his birth ? his sending together with the instruction on what to say or speak precedes the declaration to Mary

Who was sent ? His son

My main concern is @color

1. See how you change the text of that verse from "should be CALLED son of God" to "Will be son of God" Why? How convenient it is for you people to just twist the scripture without the fear of God?

Even if we go with the choice of text you choose, it means there was a time that what Mary will give birth to is not son of God since "WILL BE SON OF GOD" shows that there was a time He is not son of God.

Every reasonable person knows that if Jesus is son from beginning, the angel will never use that phrase.

2. You went ahead to give the verse different meaning to suit yourself that's why you have to change the text.

3. Had it being that you pay close attention to the conversation between the angel and Mary, you will have known the angel emphasized on three things

i. The name of the child will be called Jesus, v31 you are to name him Jesus.
ii. The child will be called Son of the Most High, v32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High
iii. The child also will be called Son of God, v35 And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son. NWT

Your own translation says "THE ONE WHO IS BORN will be CALLED..."
If you can grab this, then you'll understand why scripture can say:

God sent His son IN the likeness of sinful flesh or God sent His Son BORN OF A woman.

So the title SON OF GOD was applied to what Mary gave birth to not about the divine nature of what dwells in what Mary born.

Dp

What is the personality of the person who rotates all these positions per/night

That's the hypocrisy I use to talk about JWs.
From the screenshot, what those people are saying is that "so far you're not a Deeper life members you're going to hell" but see how you twisted and deviated from what you posted by yourself.

Maximus69:
Hmmm,
So what you're saying now is that the one posting that hateful comment isn't a member of deeperlife, yet he/she typed such with so much conviction!

Provide the evidence that they were Deeper life members.

If somebody says "One thing I HATE about JWs is...," will you consider such to be a JWs?

The OP of that thread is a core Deeper life member and I haven't seen him with such statement since I joined Nairaland.

But I can't count time JWs have made that statement.

Why do you love arguing blindly?

You argue blindly and with incoherent.

Would you prefer if we present this for other followers to share their views on the post?

Then who stop you from doing so? But remember to support your claim with fact.

Well you can show her from the scriptures that they are wrong, but know one thing today: Kumuyi will not voice out for people to hold him by his comment yet you will SEE the teachings in the lifestyle and attitude of his followers.

Just look at the @underlined and see how shallow and myopic you are.

If Kumuyi didn't voice it out, where did people hear it from?

Kumuyi do LIVE broadcast, print book e.t.c

Jesus the one you claim to be following said 'out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks' Luke 6:45
You may continue deceiving yourself but it's obvious that the dubious man knows how to implant hatred in the minds of those CONTRIBUTING money in his purse against others!

See the way you're accusing someone you don't have evidence for what people are saying about.

On the contrary Jehovah's Witnesses are friendly neighbours who will chat, play, eat, drink, dance and join other people in wholesome social gatherings.

So it's only JWs that do these things, right?
Just type it on Google "Are JWs friendly?" and see different responses.

So that you'll be shocked to know that if you're doing all these, they're some certain JWs who took their own belief to an extreme. Which is true in any religion!

The only thing that separate us from all other people like a huge fence is anything having to do with WORSHIP!
So register that in your heart!

You've deviated from the main point.

Where was scripture said you must belong to a group

Maximus69:
i know you are always against Jehovah's Witnesses using the practical applications of what is written in the Bible to present ourselves as the ONE and ONLY Christian group worldwide.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where it is written in the scripture as a proof for your "only one group".
Yet you're lying of "using practical applications of what is written in the Bible"

Well i screenshot this from an ongoing thread on NL and i will like you to explain what is happening here!
It's like a so called born again Pastor is implanting DEEPER hatred in the minds of his followers against other without any practical application!

So in essence what you're saying is that the so called born again pastor and your watchtower are the same.

From the screenshot, the two people discussing were not an actual members of Deeper life....for you to justify your claim, give us where any member of Deeper life made such claim or a message from their leader or their publications.

Imagine, if someone draws his conclusion about your organization based on what two non JWs are discussing without fact.

Lastly, if their members made such claim in my presence or on NL, my own is to show them from the scripture that they are wrong.

Barristter07:
Exactly, how this is a rebuttal of that Galatians 4:4 , I still don't get ? It only complements the fact that the one who was sent is a son of God. Unless you want to deny his prehuman existence .

Galatians 4:4 said God sent his son., born of woman.

Emphasis on " SENT "

the sending was before the human birth !


" I speak the things I have seen while with my father " John 8:38

" the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak ... So whatever I speak, I speak Just as the Father has told me " John 12:49,50


At the point of been sent and instructed on what to say and speak , he was with the Father as a Son .

You didn't address Luke 1:35, why? Because you know that's where you got understanding of "SENT" wrong.

The angel told Mary "...therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God"

Do you understand this?
If you don't, then it will be hard for you to comprehend while scripture always talks about Jesus as being SENT.

"Therefore also that holy thing (or person) - shall be called the Son of God - We may plainly perceive here, that the angel does not give the appellation of Son of God to the Divine nature of Christ; but to that holy person or thing "το ἁγιον" which was to be born of the virgin, by the energy of the Holy Spirit..." Adam Clarke's Commentrary

Now have you found out when scripture is talking about Jesus before He became part of creation and after He entered creation?

Barristter07:
While you didn't air your view on Word of God .. Either it means a person with that name or just the pronouncement from God's mouth. I will let it slide for now

Your view on Galatians 4:4

" But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his son , who was born of a woman "

Question:

Whom did God sent to be born of a woman?

I know you lack simple comprehension, so I'm not surprised!

God sent His Son!
The Son was born of a woman...

"God sent forth his Son - Him who came immediately from God himself, made of a woman, according to the promise, Genesis 3:15; produced by the power of God in the womb of the Virgin Mary without any intervention of man; hence he was called the Son of God. See Luke 1:35, and the note there." - Adam Clarke's Commentary

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35 KJV

Do you understand this verse especially the @underlined?

I'll soon turn this around so that you'll know what you're dealing with but let's continue first.

TATIME:
OK!
You're
Not ready to consider the presentation of others!
Not ready to present any group even yours for scrutiny!
Not ready to investigate matters for certainty!
Only ready for arguments.
Well sorry to disappoint you Sir, i'm not a parrot that feels like throwing words into the air without motives, therefore i don't have any reason to chat with you!
Farewell!

People who have been discussing with JWs here are all using scripture because that's where true Christians find their truth.

I asked you to show us from the scripture where it was written that the body of Christ will be one group, you couldn't!

I asked you the scripture says judgement will begin in the house of God, why? After all you said, "In the midst of TRUE worshipers, Jesus have destroyed such indomitable missiles! Isaiah 2:2-4, Micah 4:1-3"

Why would judgement begin from the house of God if God has already established ONE TRUE GROUP

You're busy defending a group when you actually lack scriptural understanding of the Salvation of your soul.