₦airaland Forum

dolphinheart:
My admissions :
I admit that in posting that translation , i did not fully know or take note of all the words present in that translation. I based my explanation and knowledge on other translations I'm used to .
In general and in complete quotation , does the translation I quoted mean something different from other translation that did not use the word "absolute"? My answer is no. Looking at all the scriptures quoted so far , we know that jesus being giving [size=14pt]"all authority" or "absolute authority" does not make him equal to God!. This is the basis of the discussion we are having as the presence or absence of the word "absolute " does not change jesus position in terms of who is superior in authority between him and the true God(the father).

So you have to quote TRANSLATION YOU'RE NOT USED TO and you couldn't check the wording very well. That's how your organization behave I'm sorry to say it again.

@bold- [b]Only God has ALL or ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY, TRUE or FALSE?

I also admit that I should not have used the sentence " the authority giving to jesus is not absolute" cus apparently we see some translations use that word when talking about jesus authority to judge.

Now the AUTHORITY HAS BEEN LIMITED only TO JUDGE... SMH

My apology:
I apologise for the use of the sentence as stated above as it is not right for me to express it that way . The underlying reasons for saying such words has been explained in previous post.

Apology accepted, but you haven't apologize for wrongly accuse me.

Now that the issue is cleared, we can move on back to the discussion.
The question arises on the issue of authority:
(a)If it is accepted that jesus is not equal to God on the issue of authority, can we rightly say that prior to jesus coming to earth , he did not have that authority as he was not giving then ?
(b) that once jesus came to earth, he also was not equal to God in authority ?
(c) and upon his asscention to heaven as a spirit creature,and till this moment we are discussing, he still does not have the same authority as the father( the one true God, his God)?
(d) that we can say jesus is a God, a mighty God , but he is not almighty as he has someone superior to him in the past , when he came to earth , and in the future?
Will like to hear ur reply on these .

To other aspects : (e) what of power , expecially power to ressurect , was jesus giving that power too?. Is jesus equal to God in power ?
(f) what about knowledge, does jesus know everything the father knows?

This is ABO WA BA in Yoruba means we'll trash this later.

Now to the issue of organization , you have issues with the organization , that is accepted, but on these thread we are discussing on the bible in general.

I don't have issue with your organization but putting the light of the scripture in the eyes of the people whom those who opposes the truth or perverted the Word of God have covered.

I said that you do not say anything positive about the organization despite your mentioning them several times. Is there nothing good in ur eyes to say about them?

Maybe because they fall in the category of those people I mentioned above.
Beside, Devil is a liar and the father of it. Your organization lies a lot maybe you know it but the fear of dis-fellowship still holding you back or you don't know which you can challenge me to provide the evidence. Can God lie?

If there is something good about the organization, why do you not
Say it ? Or have you decided to talk only about what you feel is wrong about the organization?

Every human being are not perfect but when God USED anybody the outcome is perfect, your organization claimed to be used by God but still lying and changing previous message, is that how God works?

My first post on this thread about the OP was "New generation of JWs don't worship Jesus but their founder Russell and his successors do so for over good 50years.

I wonder who is right between the founder and the followers or should I call it confusion, and the fate of those JWs who have been taught that worshiping Jesus is scriptural.

If it is Jehovah that truly called Russell, why Jehovah couldn't tell him that worshiping Jesus is idolatry but allowed Russell to die as an idolater?

NOTE: Am I lying about this? Is this how God works in the history of man?

Note: you can laugh at my post, but I wunt join you , I see laughter during serious discussion as a way of winning arguments and do not pass on any information with the laughter.

I will not use any deamining word towards ur posts

You have your life you can do anything you like with it.

dolphinheart:
Ok ill try and see if I'm able to get the quote method.

You got it this time but still learn how to make use of it fully because you're still giving me some tedious work of copy and paste.

So those words where were ur own and where were never used in the bible.
Pls show me where I used words that I can't defend using the scriptures.

No there are yours! Like I pointed it out earlier you quite knew that it's just A VIEW NOT DIRECTLY quotation from the Bible but you still just want to attack strawman.

I quoted a scripture that says " the word became flesh ". This you sidestepped in ur reply. The noble did not say "the word took on flesh " but "became flesh".

And I'm didn't tell you that my explanation is on that verse, did I? Continue to attack strawman again.

What do you understand by " word became flesh"?

He took share in humanity

So what did jesus come to earth with?
In what way does ur statement support the "took on flesh" statement you made earlier?

His divine nature.
In every ways.

Can you provide prove that jesus went back to heaven with his flesh ?
I read 1 peter 3:18 and that place said " made alive in spirit" in reference to jesus ressurection.
Jesus died in the flesh, he was made alive in the spirit .
This form of ressurection is what humans who hoped to enter into Gods kingdom believe in for paul said "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ".
Remember jesus is the first fruit of those who are to be ressurrected , if jesus where ressurected with his fleshly body , he would not have been the first for there were previous fleshly ressurections before jesus ressurection.

Many proves are in the Bible for FLESHY resurrection of Jesus Christ
1. Jesus answered and said to them, [size=14pt]"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."[/size] 20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 [size=14pt]But He was speaking of the temple of His body.[/size] He didn't say "in three days I will BUILD/FABRICATE/GET another body but RAISE IT UP.

2. He didn't fabricate another BODIES (Plural-like your organization teaches) but show the same PRINTED NAILS and side wounded body to the doubting Thomas.

3. The tomb was empty which is the evidence Jesus gave to the eyes witness Disciples to confirm His statement in John 2:19-21 that the TEMPLE will be destroyed in three days and raise it up. If Jesus' body diffused into air as you believe then Jesus is lying to have said He will RAISE IT UP

Many people are said to be "IN THE SPIRIT" in the Bible so using this as a support that Jesus never resurrected with His body contradicts His own statement.

Jesus is the first fruit ressurected in the spirit and annointed christians hope to follow this form of ressurection
"Just as there are fleshly bodies, there are also spiritual bodies". Read 1 cor 15 : 44.

Now can you show me where in the Bible that ANOINTED CHRISTIAN hope for this form of resurrection? Waiting for your Biblical support.

I deliberately did that, I changed the father to the only true God . Does the bible support my view ?
Yes, for jesus called the father the " only true God"
In john 17:1-3.
1 cor 8:5,6 also helps us to know which God we should worship, I encourage you to read it.

You deliberate did it, that's nonsense.
You believe Jesus is A GOD then is Jesus a FALSE GOD OR A TRUE GOD?
Where in 1 Corin 8:5-6 that shows which God to be worshiped?

Now let My reasoning faculty analyze what you just said
The father(only true God) has superior position and authority over jesus.
The father is equal to jesus just as I'm equal to the president cus we are both nigerian citezens.

From the above, we can agree that jesus is a "God" , but he is not the "almighty God" cus the father is superior to him.

Answered!!!

Apart from position and authority , is there any other way the father is superior to jesus?
Knowledge- the father is superior to jesus cus jesus said he learnt from the father and there are still greater things for him to learn(to be shown ). Jesus also told his disciples that there are certain things he did not know , but only the father( the only true God knows).

Power- jesus received the power he used to perform his wonderful works from God. Read acts 10: 38.

According to my Bible Jesus is the POWER of God and through God's Knowledge the depth were broken up which is the act of creation and everything is done through The Word of God which will know on earth as Jesus.

Unless you will tell me that God created His own knowledge and power.

Jesus said there is only one father who is in heaven.

That means Isaiah was lying when he said the Child will be called EVERLASTING FATHER

Read john 5 : 19 to 23 again .
You will know why the son does what the father does. Everything the son does, he learnt from the father.

The point is not why the Son does what the Father does but THE SAME HONOUR THAT GOES TO THE FATHER MUST GO TO THE SON that's the point here

Yes you are right, but his loyalty and love for the father made jesus not to do his own will, I never said jesus does not have his own will. Jesus has subjected his will to the will of the father.
Now john 17:2 helps us to understand that this particular ability of jesus was giving or granted to him by the father.

And after it was granted unto Him, He then says YOU SHOULD HONOUR HIM EVEN AS/JUST AS YOU WILL HONOUR THE FATHER.

Yes , if jehovah(the almighty) came to earth himself , ill worship him as the almighty God. I will also honor him as ill do the almighty god . [size=14pt]But if he sends a messenger , a representative, ill honor that one as a representative of the almighty God.[/size] The previous verse 22 let's us udderstand why he said all will honor him as they honor the father.

Then what is the essence of the SEAL AND AUTHORITY placed on the representative if not because Jehovah wants you to SEE and DO TO THE REPRESENTATIVE just the way you will see and do to Him?

That's why, if a President sent a representative to an occasion to my own understanding and how I see people doing it.
The representative will be addressed with Your Excellency Sir, Mr President some can then attach in the person of so so... to it or some will just continue.

[size=14pt]The honor you give a person is determined by the value or weight that person holds in you.[/size] The father loved us , he sent his son, I honor him for that . The son did not do his own thing, he did what the father sent him to do , I honor him for that . I also honor The son cause he has been giving authority to perform acts that might lead me to evalasting life and can't gain such life if I dnt follow him.

Now the AUTHORITY does not limit to judge alone keep fooling yourself.

I still see the @bold part as attacking a strawman because we're not talking of the How honour you give determined the value the person holds in you [size=14pt]but EQUIVALENT OF THE HONOUR YOU GAVE TO ONE MUST BE GIVEN TO THE OTHER PERSON[/size] ...haba enough of this your twisting tongue.
Jesus said "EVEN AS/JUST AS you honour the Father" point is anyhow you HONOUR THE FATHER HONOUR THE SON IN THE SAME WAY.

If I tell someone:
-Respect me the way/even/just as you respect your parent
-Honour me the way/even/just as you honour your mother
-Fear me the way/even/just as you fear you Father

This doesn't mean that the person must valued his/her parent more than me BUT it's crystal cleared to everyone hearing my voice at that time that [B]I'M DEMANDING FOR EQUAL RESPECT, HONOUR AND FEAR from such fellow.[/b]

So forget about this your jumbo jumbo twisting, IN ANYWAY YOU HONOUR JEHOVAH (which you know within yourself) JESUS DEMANDS FOR SUCH HONOUR ALSO! Very Simple.

The father was superior to Jesus while he was on earth , the father is also superior to Jesus when he went back to heaven.

Answered!!!

You said you're "humble enough to accept them and apologise" but instead of you to do as you claimed, you went further to lay many accusation on me and trying to put the blame on me again.

dolphinheart:
Initially I thought your reference to "absolute authority" was in relation to jesus statement "all authority has been giving me "- Matt 28:18.
With such understanding in mind , I said the authority given to jesus is not absolute! , for the scriptures help us to know that despite all authority being giving to jesus, he is still subjected to the one who gave him such authority . So in the aspect of authority , jesus is not equal to the one who gave him such authority.

I can't stop just laughing, did I quote any scripture in my post? You just decided to reason beyond my own mind.
Beside, What is the different between ABSOLUTE and ALL? If I may ask because I see you trying to make it looks different.

Ill like to admit some few things here. The translation I use mostimes do not say " absolute", and neither did most other translations use that word, but because I felt you would start arguing on translations, I decided to use one that might be acceptable to you. I bet you might have focused on the discussion and not on the word "absolute" if I've used numerous other translations that did not use the word. As I'm not a scholar who knows all the words used by each translation, i decided to look at what those verses in different translation, using different words is trying to tell us in general.

Now shifting the blame on TRANSLATION, were you not the one who quoted it or didn't you read what you quoted or are you saying the translation you used isn't correct?
Again, YOU FELT I WOULD START ARGUING ON TRANSLATION reading my mind always you must be like my Grandmother.

I also admit that I should not have said to you in particular that " the bible did not say "absolute authority " cus I should have remembered how you twist words.

Now blackmailing me of twisting words when you're the one messing yourself up here. keep blaming me for your lie.
You quoted verses from a particular translation in which you yourself inserted your OWN words in bracket but you couldn't see that.

Now let's look at the scriptures again . Jesus did not say he was [size=14pt]"giving absolute authority"[/size] but said he was giving [size=14pt]"absolute authority to judge ".[/size]
All the translation agree to these and if you had not cut that part "to judge" off from ur Statement, probably this issue would not have come up.

Anyone reading this your post can see how funny you sound, now the Absolute Authority is only to judge. Continue to fool yourself.

I know you are trying to bring the equality of jesus with God up with word "absolute authority" , but it will still not work, cus even if we use the word absolute in describing the authority giving to jesus, he is still subjected to the one who gave him such absolute authority! .

Or do you think jesus is equal to God cus of the authority he was giving?

This is another place that shows how pathetic you sound and baseless your point is because I've already stated in my initial post that the Father is superior to Jesus in Authority and Position. So reading my mind once again to draw your faulty analysis won't save you here. deal with your lie!

I know you might still argue with my explanation, but I posted it this way so that people who have humility in their heart and who want to know the truth can understand why [size=14pt]I said jesus was not giving absolute authority to make him God almighty.[/size] For I know that no matter the authority giving to jesus, it does not make him equal to God. And I can bet that you, knows that too.

I know JWs' problem is the @bold part they hate anything that makes Jesus God and fail to give Jesus the glory that belongs to Him.
Matthew 28 says "ALL AUTHORITY... and it's only God that has ALL AUTHORITY which means if Jesus is not God then Jehovah has raised a CREATED BEING to His own level.

I do wish you could stick to the discussion on what the bible says about jesus and not keep making remarks about an organization, Everyone knows how you feel about them and knows you will never say good things about them. And pls keep derogatory statements out of our discussion

@bold & @underline-Yes the honest people do and know I don't say things out of my own head against JW but [b]ALWAYS USE JWs OWN WRITINGS as my prove which none of you have never disprove. In fact this is evident that one Jws on this Forum was calling me "Mr. Jehovah witness says"
When I say your organization changes their words or contradict their previous statement or even lie, your own is to ask for a prove and if I failed to provide them then I'll agree with you but as it stands now my statement still remains valid.

I will not need to change my previous post, if i do say something wrong Bro, I'm humble enough to accept them and apologise. I dnt act like a "lord of all".

Did you tender your apology? No! Instead you find another avenue to put all the blame on me and the translation.
You should have just said in a simple sentence that it was a mistake and I'm sorry so that everything will just die down but you went ahead to accuse me and wrote another ridiculous post.

Now I hope we can move on to your proper reply on my post and express your views on the scriptures and not an organization.

It will, but let me conclude this part about AUTHORITY with your own word from the first statement in this post so that I won't deal with it again as I'll continue to enlighten you in that your post. "So in the aspect of authority, Jesus is not equal to the one who gave him such authority."

Jozzy4:
My conclusion doesnt contradict , God give birth to the earth means God form/create it (psalm 90:2) the same hebrew word is used

A right thinking person know God is not a woman that he should give birth , that expression refer to creation ! that means the septuagint LXX rendering @ prov 8:22 is correct

I can't just stop laughing the way you hold Septuagint LXX whereas when we look at other Septuagint LXX rendering in other verses about the Messiah your argument will be forfeited.

For instance;

In Psalm 45:6-7 was rendered in Septuagint as 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of righteousness. 7 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy fellows.

Whereas the author of Hebrew applied this verse to Jesus Christ when the Father is addressing His Son in Hebrew 1:8 and an organization rendered it as God is your throne! Which is one is the correct one, the Septuagint or that organization?

Again, in Micah 5:1 Septuagint rendered it as "1 And thou, Bethleem, house of Ephratha, art few in number to be [reckoned] among the thousands of Juda; [yet] out of thee shall one come forth to me, to be a ruler of Israel; and his goings forth were from the beginning, [even] from eternity.

And an organization rendered it as from time indefinite! even though the same Hebrew word was used for the Father in Psalm 90:2.

Is Septuagint or that organization the correct one?

So look at the context of Proverb 8:22-end and see what the writer is saying, like I told one JWs the context of that Proverb 8 will contradict some Christian Greek scripture if being reading out of context because if you read it down the Speaker didn't claim to be used for the creation but just beside Him but Christian's Greek Scripture says everything was created through Jesus.

Let me stop here first, but if you want more explanation about Proverb 8 let me know.

I know the next thing you will do is to strike through my post.

How beautiful would've been to reply your post but immediately I came across this YOUR DAY LIGHT LIE, I know you're just exhibiting the habit of your organization, saying something today change it tomorrow OR contradict the previous statement. What an organization, what a followers! So I have to point it out before I continue with you.

This is from your previous post.

dolphinheart: I will show you my understanding of the verse by quoting it and also adding more info in bracket.

John 5: 19-23:
19 So Jesus explained, “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing( your deity, Jesus, said he only does what he sees the father doing, he does not do anything of his own initiative, yet some say the father and son are equal, how can they be equal when the son does not take any action unless the father tells him to? ) . Whatever the Father does, the Son also does( can you see superiority here too, no verse in the bible ever says "whatever the son does, the father also does"wink. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing( the father teaches the son ). In fact, the Father will show him how to do even greater works than healing this man( the father will still teach the son how to do greater things in the future). Then you will truly be astonished. 21 For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone he wants. (the father has giving the son the ability and taught him how to raise the dead) 22 In addition, the Father judges no one. [size=14pt]Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority[/size] to judge, ( the father gave the son the authority, at a Particular time Jesus never had the authority ) 23 ( since the father has giving this authority to the son , what happens next) so that( the word "so" links verse 23 to verse 22 ) everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

Pay attention to the @color part especially the @underline, now see what you said later in your second post below.

No , jehovah has not taking back the authority. [size=14pt]Bro, the authority giving to Jesus is not absolute!. The scriptures never said absolute authority.[/size] The scriptures explains that despite Jesus being giving authority , he is still subject to the father who gave him the authority. So in no way was Jesus ever equal to the father in authority at any point in time

So which scripture did you quote in the first place that said Jesus was given ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY?
Can you see how you plainly deny scriptural evidence?


Clear this mess before I reply to your post.

*NOTE: Don't try to modify your post because I've taken screenshot of it.

lexiconkabir:
read from 8 and you will see that it was that son talking to God. and God is truely the creator of all things.

Stop bringing Islamic theology into what doesn't concern you.

Verse 8 reads: "But to the Son He (The Father) says..."

Bible isn't like Qur'an where the speaker switched from First Pronoun to second pronoun or from third to another.

lexiconkabir:
you are yet to show me how that verse refers to jesus, some translation uses firstborn, please who was the firstborn on earth and pls address heb1:9. where that son was told "therefore God, your God has placed you above your companions ...."

And if you now add verse 10 that applied creation to the Son.

Was it Adam that created everything?

I know you're a Muslim trying to bring Islam understanding into Christian.

Next time make your post well arrange by using quotation tag (instead of typing You said or I said or my remark) if not I won't reply you.

dolphinheart:
Do you have any bible verse(s) to support [size=14pt]ur views[/size] expecially the "word of God entered the creation"? note key word we are looking for *"enter creation" *

Do you have any verse(s) that supports the statements: (a)"took on flesh"
(b)became part of creation?
*note the key words we need from the scriptures :"took on flesh" and " became part of creation.
Words not used in the right format or probably deliberately twisted can give one a different understanding . The different translations I read on john 1:14 says " the word became flesh " and " word was made flesh "!. * note key word : "became"!

Attacking strawman, @bold how can view/understanding of verse be found in the scripture? When you yourself did the same below.

Now you say jesus had a God when he took on flesh , to me this implies that he did not have a God [size=14pt]before coming to earth(correct me if I'm wrong).[/size] Now did he still have that God or did not have that God when he went [size=14pt]back to heaven[/size] after his ressurrection ?

The two @bold show you never grasp the point; but let me help you.
Jesus came to earth NOT WITH HIS FLESH but He went to heaven with His Flesh.

My remarks:
I agree with you, jesus was sent by the one true God.

So He was not sent by His Father, right?

You said:
His Father!

But no comment, since the Father is different from the one who sent Him according to you by changing The Father to the ONE TRUE GOD in above.

My remarks :
Ur statement shows that jesus and the father are not equal in authority and position , the father is superior to jesus

You read me well.

My remarks:
You earlier stated that the father is superior to jesus , that they are different persons, now you state they are equal?.
How can they be equal when one is superior to the other?

President Muhammad Buhari is superior than Me (It means PMB is superior than me in Authority and Position)
President Muhammad Buhari is equal to Me (It means as a Nigeria Citizen we are equal)
Let your reasoning faculty do the rest

Isaiah 9:6 said :"he will be called....... evalasting father". This denotes that at a particular time he was not called "evalasting father".

Now that He's CALLED Everlasting Father, how many EVERLASTING FATHER DO YOU HAVE?

Are you saying that when we worship jesus, we also worship the father? Or we worship both at the same time

I believe you read and understood my post.

Thank God john 5:23 did not say " everyone will worship the son just as they worship the father".

The question is, do you honour God THROUGH YOUR WORSHIP?

I will show you my understanding of the verse by quoting it and also adding more info in bracket.

Can you provide scripture for your understanding here as you said of me earlier?

( your deity, jesus, said he only does what he sees the father doing, he does not do anything of his own initiative, yet some say the father and son are equal, how can they be equal when the son does not take any action unless the father tells him to?).

Do you know the meaning of SUPERIORITY?

Whatever the Father does, the Son also does( can you see superiority here too, no verse in the bible ever says "whatever the son does, the father also does".

In fact your scriptural perversion is alarming. NOTE here, Whatever the Father does, THE SON ALSO DOES! What does that mean to you? Beside, Did I say there's no SUPERIORITY?

20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing( the father teaches the son ). In fact, the Father will show him how to do even greater works than healing this man( the father will still teach the son how to do greater things in the future). Then you will truly be astonished. 21 For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone
[size=14pt]he wants.[/size] ( the father has giving the son the ability and taught him how to raise the dead) 22 In addition, the Father judges no one.

The @bold is the key here, which means Jesus can also carry out HIS OWN WILL without conflicting Father's will. Which brought the whole previous verses into ONE. As even though Jesus can INITIATE His OWN WILL He still Allow the Father to lead.
I know you didn't see this.

Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge, (the father gave the son the authority, at a Particular time jesus never had the authority ) 23 ( since the father has giving this authority to the son , what happens next) so that( the word "so" links verse 23 to verse 22 ) everyone will honor the Son, [size=14pt]just as[/size] they honor the Father.

We will see how perverted you are with this your understanding.

Now that He has the Authority. Has Jehovah take back the Authority? If NO! How many people do you have HAVING ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY? If YES! Kindly explain.

Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

If a king sends a messenger on an errand with his seal or sign of authority, that messenger is honored like you'll honor the king . Jesus said all will honor the son like they honor the father cus of [size=14pt]the authority the father gave him.[/size] He definitely did not mean worship the son like they worship the father.

Imaging after in your own illustration when the messenger will be honored LIKE YOU'LL honor the King later change to not mean worshiping the Son like they worship the Father which we can then ask, how will people would've honored the King if the King that was actually seen by the people in place of that messenger?

I believe you don't understand your own illustration and this is where JWs always miss it.

The meaning of your illustration is very simple, the SEAL and the AUTHORITY can be interpreted If I (the King) be the one who APPEARS in your PRESENCE or come to you, how will you have treated me? In other word it means if it is Jehovah who actually came to earth with is OWN SEAL and Authority WILL YOU WORSHIP HIM or NOT?

Children honor/value there parents
Servants honor/value there masters
Jesus honors/values God
God honors/values jesus
Servants of God honors/values God
God honors/values his loyal servants

Illustration upon illustration without knowing how it refutes your own claim.
Is it the same way the loyal servants honor God that God will honor them back? But Jesus said "...EVEN AS/JUST AS..." which means IN ANYWAY YOU HONOR THE FATHER HONOR ME IN LIKE MANNER.

As for me and the rest of TRUE BELIEVERS all over the world, we honor the Father through our worship, praise, prayers. I don't know about JWs but I know because you knew the gravity of this verse over your believe you decided to limit your HONOR to Jehovah ONLY for being the CREATOR.

Since it was God who highly exalted his Son, all who refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the immortal King of kings and Lord of lords dishonor the Father. Because of who he is and what he has accomplished, the Son deserves honor and loyal support.
All who desire to be honored by the Son as his approved disciples must imitate his example and faithfully adhere to his teaching.— Romans 2:7, 10.

Was it because The Father is also immortal King of kings and the Lord of lord that made them dishonor Him? Since the statement was "...EVEN AS/JUST AS they honor the Father."

I value the father cus he is my creator, I value the son cus of what he has done for me.

You've given that beautiful verse two different meaning now because of your twisted tongue @bold, do you mean what Jesus did for you it's not Jehovah who did it?

Then you must value The Son as the creator too because "...EVEN AS/JUST AS you value (if we replace honor with value just for your own taste) the Father" that's what the verse says.

My remarks :
Sir , you have not answered question 7 .

You question is YES, is that ok?

But my question has been danced around and swept over as usual.

Maamin:
"THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" - Jesus Christ A.D 33

After quoting the whole of my post the only thing you can type is this.
Who says the Father is not greater?

an you help us answer this please?

do you honour the Father through your worship or In what way do you honour the Father? Remember Jesus said [size=14pt]"...EVEN AS/JUST AS..."[/size]

dolphinheart:
All should consider this questions

One mistake that people who raised questions like these are making is the INABILITY to distinguish between when The Word of God entered the creation and was given the name Jesus and His preexisting life from eternity.

(1) does jesus have a God?

When He took on flesh(became part of creations) the Father will automatically be His God as the Father is God for every creations.

(2) was jesus sent ?

Yes to earth by His Father.

(3) who sent jesus ?

His Father!

(4) who do you think is superior , jesus or the one who sent him .

The Father is superior IN AUTHORITY/POSITION than Him.

(5) is jesus the father?

He is not the PERSON of the Father but He is an EVERLASTING FATHER Isaiah 9:6 which placed Him in Equality with the Father.

In fact this is one of the verses that spelled out the Deity of Jesus.

(6) if you think jesus is not the father, who do you think deserves our worship , jesus , the father or both ?

The worship giving to Jesus is also for the Father no difference because "That ALL (including JWs) may HONOR THE SON, [size=14pt]EVEN AS[/size] they (including JWs) HONOR the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth the Father which hath sent him" John 5:23

Let me ask you this maybe you can answer it since JWs I've asked always dance around and swept over it, do you honour the Father through your worship or In what way do you honour the Father? Remember Jesus said [size=14pt]"...EVEN AS/JUST AS..."[/size]
*Note: Don't ridicule your post by now giving me the definition of the word 'Honour' from dictionary.

(7 ) is Christ under subjection to anybody ?
( if you are in subjection to another, is that person not superior to you ?

Then do the Trinitarian ever claim that Jesus is superior than His Father?

It's better you get a Trinity book and read for your own benefit and leave everything Watchtower had told you about Trinity because it never presents Trinity the way Trinitarian teaches.

thecornerstone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIWezNEoPqo

For more videos, please visit www.illbehonest.com
and www.sermonaudio.com/gcc

New generation of JWs don't worship Jesus but their founder Russell and his successors do so for over good 50years.

I wonder who is right between the founder and the followers or should I call it confusion, and the fate of those JWs who have been taught that worshipping Jesus is scriptural.

If it is Jehovah that truly called Russell, why Jehovah couldn't tell him that worshipping Jesus is idolatry but allowed Russell to die as an idolater?

Willkommen! to all Muslims und Yahweh Gesundheit!

Mariojane:
What is the big deal with inviting Pasuma?

because Pasuma is not singing to edify the body of Christ.

Is it not a church?

Yes it is and that's why such step could be taken before people like you will see Pasuma performing and shout, what is church turning to this day?

What right do they have to condemn human?

Nobody condemned here ma, just a step to prevent such shout.

Who knows maybe the Pasuma is holier than them, what if by inviting him he can change for good and change his style of music. That is, if he is not better than them.

This is a contradictory statements ma, if you think Pasuma is holier than them why did you THINK again that by inviting Pasuma, he can CHANGE FOR GOOD AND HIS STYLE OF MUSIC?
And what do you think is wrong with his music style that needs to change?

People should stop condemn others cos through your condemnation your are sinning while the person you are condemning is living his life.

I can't see any condemnation here

He is invited to church he can't bring naked girls to dance there, he is wiser than that,

And believe if he finally did when the time to prevent such action had gone people like you will shout and pass judgement on the body of Christ.

you should have allow him come before condemning or suspending your pastor.

Prevention is better than cure!

onyengbu:
The second select box (models) populating is the main plot behind the code and it is properly populating when you change makes value.

If you copied my code verbatim and followed the instructions, it must work.

Yes I copied everything just as you wrote them, just don't know the reason why it couldn't populate.

Thanks once again.

Can you help me with another alternative?

*modify
Let me say this, I'm using this code inside a PHP file where getheader was placed, so where exactly will the SCRIPT fit to be inserted?
Could it be after the gethearder or before?
Inside the form tag or outside the form tag?

because I placed the SCRIPT inside the form tag.

onyengbu:
Below is the same code with the jquery part re written. Save in a php file named select.php or update line 27 if you save in another file.
You can see the jquery library I added is hosted online so run the file in a internet connected system or change line 19 to link to to your local copy of jquery library if you are offline.
Cheers.

Thanks so much for your contribution but I'm having problem with the second select box now because the first select box (for #makes) populated but the second select box (for #models) doesn't populate.

What can I do?
Thanks once again.

Thank God he has power now to present the fact he had back then before he could raise the accusation but failure to do so means just a cheap political ranting.

I never truth any Nigeria Politicians!

harristo:
Even if you say that, JW aren't the only ones that don't believe in the trinity.

One of the main reasons I don't believe in the trinity even though I am not a JW, is because it makes the Bible truths less contradictory to me.

There are too many Basic foundational Bible truths that trinitarian belief contradicts.

Of course I know it isn't only JWs who doesn't believe in Trinity.

Well if you think Trinity makes the Bible truth LESS contradictory maybe it's the way you've understood it.

Please can you post some out of MANY basic foundational Biblical truth that Trinitarians believe that contradicts, so that we can look into it together?

Shalom!

Jozzy4:
Rants of a frustrated man .

Typical JWs when their lies are being exposed.

Emusan:
<?php
$makes = array('Acura', 'BMW', 'Lexus', 'Toyota', 'Honda');

if(isset($_POST['submit']))
{ echo '<pre>'; print_r($_POST); echo '</pre>'; }
?>

<form action="" method="post">
<select id="makes" name="makes">
<?php
foreach($makes as $m){ echo '<option value="'.$m.'">'.$m.'</option>'; }
?>
</select>
<select id="models" name="models">
</select>
<input type="submit" name="submit" value="Submit">
</form>



<script>
$('#makes').change(function(){
var make = $(this).val();
$.post('select-request.php', {make:make}, function(data){
$('#models').html(data);
});
});
</script>


<?php
error_reporting(E_ALL);

$acura = array('Integra', 'TSX', 'MDX');
$bmw = array('1 Series', '3 Series', '5 Series', 'X5');
$lexus = array('ES300', 'GX470', 'GS350', 'LS400H');
$toyota = array('Venza', 'Camry', 'Corolla', 'Echo');
$honda = array('Pilot', 'Accord', 'Civic', 'Ridgeline');

if(isset($_POST['make']))
{
$model = strtolower($_POST['make']);

foreach($$model as $mo){ echo '<option value="'.$mo.'">'.$mo.'</option>'; }
}
?>

Please a need someone to help here;
1. I want to put the whole thing on the same file
2. How can I re-write the jQuery/<script> so that it won't contain the $.post(select-request)?
3. I want onchange event to occur at the second select box.

Please if you want to help, kindly use the above codes as an example.

Thanks!

Jozzy4:
Pick your glasses and re-read my post . Its a question :

" So Stephen actually saw Jesus and GOD with his human eyes ?

As I corrected you in the other thread, was this how you were been taught in your English class to be asking question?

My guy, So heaven actually OPENED , abi ? "

No! Heaven was actually closed!

That question might help you to stop mistaking vision for a real-life event . ( Paul's Journey to damascus: A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN FLASHED and Jesus speaks , THE GLORY OF THAT LIGHT blinds paul Act 22:11 ; 'dwelling in unaproachable LIGHT' 1tim 3:16 thats a real encounter after his ascension to heaven. )

Was Apostle Paul talking about his encountered with Jesus or the NATURE of God in general?
Unconfused man who couldn't differentiate between encounter experience and the NATURE of God which the verse is talking about.

Jozzy4:
confuse man ; You Start a thread you cant handle then you start derailing .

a confused man that always furnished article that unconfused man can't refute.

Here is my first statement on this thread

" those guys ( JW's) hardly engage in a conversation where the op is a confuse man" .


Gradually , you proved the point as true ; all you now do is deviate from the main point of the thread just to save face .

You guys gat big problem .

So what is the tangle thing you have contributed to the OP other than ranting up and down?

I stop replying you because your new discovery word "confuse man" perfectly described you.

When you can say so heaven opened when Stephen saw Jesus which is the evidence that people actually saw Jesus after His ascension as it against your claim that the verse is talking about Jesus ascension.

How do you see the fact I presented above Mr unconfused man?

johnw74:
This Greber 'coverup' is disgusting, Isn't it?
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/129299/this-greber-coverup-disgusting-isnt?page=3

No wonder the Bible describes false christianity as Har-lot Babylon or the whor-e
the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit

I didn't even have that link before but the one I have is much revealing.

That's why you won't see them again anytime you begin to bring reality to their faces.

See the summary of these two links:
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/watchtower_greber.htm

*Here the Watchtower knew since 1955-1956 that Greber is a spirit medium
*In December 20, 1980 the Governing Body of JWs sent letter to Greber's Foundation for receiving the COPIES of both Greber's New Testament and his book titled "Communication with the Spirit World of God--Its Laws and Purpose" NOTE: they must have gotten them through a particular ADDRESS.
*After this letter people began to ask the society question for instance Keith Morse of Personal Freedom Outreach (PFO) wrote a letter to the society in (December 10, 1981) on how he can get Greber's translation, the society respond was "With reference to your inquiry regarding the publication the New Testament, by Johannes Greber, [size=14pt]we have to inform you that we do not publish or stock this book.[/size] In line with your comments, on the title page of our library copy of this book, against the date 1937, [size=14pt]the publishers are given as John Felsburg, Inc., 88 N. Fourth Ave., New York, NY. This is really the only information that we have,...[/size]

Notice the BOLD part;
@bold1-they claimed THEY DON'T STOCK THE BOOK was it that immediately they received the copies they quickly quote them and throw them away?
@bold2-they say the only information they have is the address of their library copy (not 'copies') which was the 1937 John Felsburg edition. Just imaging

*Their respond to Keith Morse prompted M. Kurt Goedelman of PFO to write the Society about this letter dated September 27, 1982. The letter is lengthen which I can't quote for the sake of space but it's on the link. But let me extract this from his letter "Thus I restate my question as to why the writers of Watchtower material are in use of a double standard. That is, numerous Watchtower publications roll off your presses instructing members to have nothing to do with spiritistic works, then they themselves quote from spiritistic material to endorse the theology of Jehovah's Witnesses.... Also in closing I would very much appreciate your comments concerning the enclosed photocopied Watchtower letter to Mr. Keith Morse (marked "Figure #4". The Society informed Mr. Morse that they do not know where to obtain a Greber 'New Testament' translation and only furnished him with an out-of-date address..."

*You know what [size=14pt]as a numerous questions from the readers the society stop using the works of Greber in April 1, 1983[/size] "Why, in recent years, has The Watchtower not made use of the translation by the former Catholic priest, Johannes Greber?

This translation was used occasionally in support of renderings of Matthew 27:52, 53 and John 1:1, as given in the New World Translation and other authoritative Bible versions...Watchtower 1/4/83

Can you see how they OPENLY ADMITTED THAT THEY USED IT IN SUPPORT OF John 1:1?

Second link is more the same as the first just that it makes comparison between Greber's teaching with that of JWs
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-Greber.htm

---

Some Greber's DOCTRINE (From his book: Communication with the Spirit World of God--Its Laws and Purpose):
[b]1. God has a Body: Material forms are images of spiritual forms, and since all material things have form and shape, so, too, have all spiritual things, and so, also, has God. ... Inasmuch, then, as God has a shape, He can be seen by the other spirits. (p. 260-61)
2. God Is Not Omnipresent: Inasmuch as God possesses shape and personality, He is not omnipresent ... as a personified spirit He is not everywhere. (p.261)
3. God Is Not Omniscient: You have plenty of proof that I am a truthful spirit ... When I tell you that God has no foreknowledge of the voluntary actions of men, I am not detracting from His greatness. ... such unerring foreknowledge is possessed by no spirit, nor even by God Himself. (p. 263,265)
4. Christ is God's First & Highest Creation: Christ is the highest of the spirits created by God and the sole one to be created directly. ... Christ Himself was not God, but only the first of God's sons. ... Christ is the highest spirit which the omnipotent God could create. Christ ... is the first created "son of God", and as such, His highest and most perfect Creature.(p. 301, 267)
5. Christ is God's Agent in Creation, Not the Creator: Save for the first created Son of God, the entire spirit-world was brought into existence not by direct Divine creation ... but was called into being through the Son upon whom God had conferred creative power.(p.267-

---

The same DOCTRINE by JWs:
1. God has a Body: The bodies of spirit persons (God, Christ, the angels) are glorious. (Insight on the Scriptures p.348)
2. God Is Not Omnipresent: The true God is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. (Insight on the Scriptures p.969)
3. God Is Not Omniscient: Jehovah has the ability to foreknow events, but the Bible shows that he makes selective and discretionary use of that ability ... (Reasoning from the Scriptures p.141)
4. Christ is God's First & Highest Creation: Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God's first creation, his firstborn Son. (Insight on the Scriptures Vol. 2 p.52) ... This means that [Jesus] was created before all the other spirit sons of God, and that he is the only one who was directly created by God. (You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth p. 58)
5. Christ is God's Agent in Creation, Not the Creator: The Son's share in the creative works did not make him a co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit... ((Insight on the Scriptures Vol. .2 p.52)

---

I think the best questions to ask here is since JWs has admitted that Johannes Greber is a spiritst according to their April 1, 1983 and as seen from above
1. while is there so much SIMILARITY DOCTRINE between what a SPIRITIST believed and the self acclaimed mouth piece of God JWs?
2. Was Greber right with all his DOCTRINE?

neoapocalypse:
Eternal but not alive , unless you want to claim that your God is not alive.

Good to hear, which means ONE THING is actually eternal.

If Energy is not alive where does LIFE come from?

JMAN05:
Sorry no enlightenment for u.

Enlightenment from a lie lie person following lie lie organization.

@johnw74
Please don't follow them with caustic words.

If you want to catch JWs on John 1:1 just show them how they've used spiritist source like Johannes Greber and John S. Thompson whom they themselves confessed to be involved in spiritism.

Look at the attached pix it's a letter from self acclaimed mouth pic of God to Johannes Gerber's foundation.

But they say the light getting brighter instead of acknowledging their devil inspiration.

Atlantian:
Energy can not be created nor destroyed, but it can be converted from one form to another.

@bold-You mean Energy is ETERNAL, right?

Jozzy4:
And who told you Jesus is not created ?

The Bible told me when it says Jesus is an ETERNAL LIFE or can't it be created?

Proverb 8:22 " The LORD Made me (Jesus) as the beginning of his way, the earliest of HIS ACHIEVEMENT"

Like I explained to one of your brother sometimes ago, if you read the account of that Prov 8 very well you will find out that it totally refutes JWs. I don't have time to go into this now but let me just make emphasis on these.

From verse 26-29 will see WISDOM (the Me in verse 22) talking about the creation.

Verse 26-While as yet HE had not....
Verse 27-When HE prepared the earth...
Verse 28-When HE established...
Verse 29-When HE assigned...

Who is the HE in those verses?

The above nullified the teaching that God first created Jesus before He used Jesus to create other things as we can see it here that the ME said the HE did everything.

so jesus dwell in unapprochable light when he was on earth, abi? tell me when he start dwelling in unaprochable light, lets see if its not after his ascension to heaven ?

Was the life of Jesus started on earth?
Was Stephen when being stoned to death saw Jesus before His ascension to heaven?

Like as you purposely twist that scripture to suit your claim which never comes to your fable mind that people still see Jesus after His ascension.

JMAN05:
If you wànted a witness to respond, why don't u invite them?

I don't need to! Over 200views you can't tell me no JWs is among.

How can one [size=14pt]bearing a term that can apply to God mean that that one is God?[/size]

Let me agree that you don't know what you're saying when you type this.

You ve started with this ur puerile argument.

And you've started replying to this puerile argument.

Jozzy4:
: Jesus is another God ??

And this is how you're being taught in your English class to ask question.
Anyway it's depend on where your 'another' belongs to.

macof:
Then pls don't ever say this

And what will happen if I do?

Because ur own Eledumare is not Eledumare in yoruba

Ur own Eledumare is jst another name for Jehova,

But Eledumare in yoruba is a different thing entirely

As far as I know the understanding of two different people on ONE POINT/OBJECT varies.

How a Yoruba man understood Moon is different from how an English man does, yet there's only one Moon.

Jozzy4:
Answer me : jesus is another God ?

Did you ask any question

Jozzy4:
you
agree with them , YET you culd say @ op " Ironically, the society interprete this text in reference to Jesus" , See your confusion status ?

Sorry for this, you need more of basic English.

As I highlighted three key points from that verse which are:
1. the one alone having immortality,
2. who dwells in unapproachable light, &
3. whom not one of men has seen or can see.
And go on to say ONLY A BEING THAT IS UNCREATED can absolutely fit into these three descriptions. then you can appreciate my statement you referred to which means if these three attributes that only God possessed was used to describe Christ and JWs openly ADMITTED then Jesus is God.

They do ! End of story

Ok

Did paul say whom no man has seen AT ANYTIME ? Its clear, You are the confuse person

Did Paul also say after His ascension to heaven? It's clear, you're the one who added that.

macof:
Then where do you pit the different personality of Yahweh with that of Eledumare


I hope you know that Eledumare has no "only son" called jesus

My own Eledumare has.