₦airaland Forum

Rilwayne001:
LWKMD

https://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2015-07/15/10/enhanced/webdr06/mobile-15077-1436971691-5.jpg

See this chief So you sef dey eye Zahra? loool.

FYI bro, I am still single..

SINGLE you baba ibeji

Please don't let the issue of Zahra cause us gbege you know I'm your brother

Rilwayne001:
LWKMD.. And who is a brick layer??

After how many wives And you're still eying the only woman who can make me convert to Islam

Teyonie:
I was surprised and sad when I checked his phone and realised that he doesn't keep my text messages even the ones he sends to me but he kept one other one from another lady, what could this mean please? I'm anticipating your opinions o cos I don't want to react wrongly. Thanks.

Eyah it's like both of us are facing the same situation currently since over 90% comments show that you're his side chick or is it chicken and it shows that we're compatible.

But hope the big bros never entered the place

paulGrundy:


You are most probably right, I sent a copy of the letter to paul Grundy via e-mail. Funny thing is that his sources had given him a real life copy of the letter months ago. I guess he's working on it.

Really!!!

I'll like to have the copy of the letter

MizJanet:


See public disgrace , David make heaven without Jesus !!!
Point 1 : Okay , Inherited Sin is so useless that it couldnt prevent David from making heaven . You prove that right !

Point 2 : Your answer further Make Jesus Death Useless: so David made heaven without Jesus dying for his inherited original sin ?

Take it easy ma, life is too short.
I know you're only here to mock but I'm doing this for people to grab something.

Let me start by asking you, how do you understand the phrase INHERITED/ORIGINAL SIN as Christian believed?

Maybe we can start from there...

Rilwayne001:
King David is even good, Abel that was killed by Cain in Genesis, is he is heaven or hell since he also according to Emusan inherited this original sin from Adam?

I knew you read the conversation between your brother and I where I've explained what ORIGINAL SIN simply means.

Firstly, the phrase ORIGINAL SIN never appeared in the Holy Scripture but it's a theological word to describe the consequence of what man is passing through today just because of what Adam lost which is HIS UNCORRUPTED NATURE.

Secondly, since we're in the body of Adam when Adam's nature got polluted that's prone to sin and death, that's why MAN DIED TODAY AND CAN SIN.

Thirdly, even your brother agreed that had it been that Adam didn't sin he wouldn't have experienced DEATH and continue to live in Paradise. Now man KNOWS DEATH because Adam sinned.

Lastly, when Adam sinned God provided a way out for man which I may elaborate more as we go on.

MizJanet:
keep it coming , I know you are scared . ( in relation to the Christian original sin . ) Where did King David go when he died ?

Imaging I'm scared...you must be god to know that
For your question, King David is in heaven.
Note: If you switch back to your childish life I'll end the conversation.

MizJanet:
religion is bullshit . Black pot calling kettle black ; @ Emusan , what made you think your own christianity is right ? Let me test your IQ .

The christian tag is " Heaven or Hell " ... Lets address this in relation to the original sin .

Question: where did King David go when he died ? Heaven or hellfire .

I ) if u say hellfire ? Serious Lol , that means your god is a monster that will even torture those who serve him . Yagga ! bullshit

Ii ) and if you say heaven , that means David achieve eternal life in heaven without Jesus dying for his INHERITED Original sin ? Oh ! Yeah , then you just prove that Jesus didnt die for anyone , his death is useless and baseless , so far humans make heaven without him .
"

Let me know the option you choose .

I reply you because I was the one who created the thread but if you truly want me to address your question.

Then you must repost it and ask in a mature way not as a kid.

paulGrundy:
Am interested in the new release -"what Should the bible really teach".
Alert me when they start publishing it.

It's like change of doctrine is coming again.
I must get this letter

JMAN05:
Sister kindly remove this letter from this forum. U made a big mistake by posting this letter here.

Meanwhile, we can speak thru mail.

Why must she remove it?

Kai I must get this latest letter by fire by force

An open minded person following this can see that you're only bringing your Islamic doctrine here not not that you're addressing my points.
NOTE: None of my questions you've ever addressed here, you just keep jumping up and down without meaningful point.

If you didn't address any of my question this time around, forget about me replying you.

Repentance96:
Paul's teachings and writings contradict the rest of the Gospels. Some Christians are now accepting the fact that there appears to be two Gospels in reality - one for the Jew and one for the Gentiles. The writings of this "saint" contradicts itself at a few places which explains such a big spectrum of views regarding the innermost features of Christian theology (Original Sin or none? Calvism true or false? Israel was replaced or not? Etc)

Thank God you say SOME CHRISTIANS (and you can't tell me here that ALL MUSLIMS AGREE WITH THE TEACHING OF THE QURAN, no fractions), but which ever way the teaching of Apostle Paul never contradicts itself, Jesus' Message nor the other Apostles. I believe that's just Muslims excuse to deny the inspired word of God through Paul.

The teachings of the last and final Messenger does not self-contradict. No one claims that it doesn't contradict the Bible of today. No one claims that the Teacher of the Messenger is the Messiah.

Lol...But you first accused Paul not meeting The Messiah in person, so when I brought how Muhammad met people Like Moses and Jesus and his teaching still contradicted theirs you have to change your mouth by claiming Muhammad message never self contradictory, well will you ever claim that it self contradictory before?

[size=14pt]Adam purified his nature and God accepted His repentance.[/size] Even if Adam passed away with a "tainted nature" that does not mean his children will be born with a similar nature. 1) God does not create souls that are tainted in their origin with sin 2) God does not allow the son to carry the burden of his father (that is terrible injustice).

Just listing to yourself, Adam purified his NATURE. How does Adam do that? Does Adam have power of his nature?
Again, if it does not mean that HIS CHILDREN are born with SIMILAR NATURE, where does every human being derive their NATURE?
It's too obvious that you have shallow knowledge about this issue because after I explained the meaning of DEATH you can still come up with this.

Very funny, God does not allow the son to carry the burden of his father yet you can say below that [size=14pt]"but we might inherit the consequences of it"[/size] why must you inherit anything at all if son can't carry the burden of his father? Confuse theology!

We don't inherit Sin or kufr, [size=14pt]but we might inherit the consequences of it.[/size] We are on earth but when we born here we were born in the purest of the pure nature. A baby can die not because of sin, but because of God's will. This baby will not necessarily end up in hell.

The @bold is one of the reason I said you have shallow knowledge at the issue at hand.
So what are the CONSEQUENCE OF SIN THAT CAN BE INHERITED? Please don't boycott this one again...
Scientifically proving A MAN WILL DONATE SOMETHING AND THE WOMAN WILL DONATE SOMETHING before a baby NATURE can form, which means EVERY BORN BABY DERIVED THEIR NATURE FROM THEIR PARENT that's why MAN ONLY HAS ONE NATURE.

I can see that you still lack the in-depth understanding of the word 'SIN' like I explained earlier.
Let me help your understanding small which you have also agreed with below.
1. NOBODY WOULD HAVE DIED IF ADAM HAD NOT SINNED
2. NOBODY WOULD HAVE KNOWN SIN if Adam HAD NOT SINNED at first
3. ALL HUMAN DERIVED THEIR NATURE from the TAINTED NATURE OF ADAM, that's why your Quran itself can talk of ADAM'S DESCENDANT (NOT NEW DESCENDANT) which means WE ALL COME FROM ADAM.
So if Adam and Eve did not sin we wouldn't have known sin, if Adam and Eve continue in their PURE state in paradise ALL HIS DESCENDANT will continue to live in paradise without passing through DEATH.
The Soul of a new born baby can be created pure by Allah but HIS NATURE which is from Adam is already tainted that is tartar with sin.

[size=14pt]If they didn't sin then they would have been in Paradise without death,[/size] until the Day of Judgement where everyone will taste death before being recreated.

Thank you for that @bold
But notice the @underline, it's evident that MAN WOULDN'T HAVE KNOWN DEATH if Adam didn't sin.
I'm so happy that you're the one confirming ORIGINAL SIN here.
Original sin simply means DEATH AND SIN was brought upon ALL THROUGH THE FIRST MAN ADAM. if you don't want to called it ORIGINAL SIN you can call it what you like but it's evident that ADAM BROUGHT DEATH AND SIN UPON MAN.
NOTE: Apostle Paul himself never used the phrase 'ORIGINAL SIN' but simply make it known that the DISOBEDIENT OF ADAM caused the suffering and death upon man today just as you agreed that Adam wouldn't have DIED if he didn't leave paradise.

Lastly, you can see the reason why I said Islam theology is too shallow, you talk about EVERYONE BEING RECREATED now but what Muhammad believed was RESURRECTION, are the two words the same?

You seem to think of death as a punishment. It is not necessarily a punishment. Animals have died even before man was placed on earth. Angels will taste death before being reborn in the Day of Judgement when this whole world is transformed.

This is another ridiculous statement or should I call it weak theology?
If death is not a punishment, was Allah planned death for Adam and Eve in the garden? Since Adam wouldn't have died if he remained in the garden it's obvious that DEATH MUST HAVE COME as result of disobedient which is part of what they wouldn't have experienced in the garden.

Science itself has debunked the claim that death entered the world only when Adam sinned.

And this Scientist believed that Adam exist, right?

You seem to love arguing don't you?

And it seems you hate argument, don't you?

No I haven't. All the Prophets had or will taste death on earth and then when the Trumpets sounds. This world will be transferred into a new world. This is not because of sin, but simply a transformation. Death occurs to everyone who is not God the Eternal the Absolute.

Jesus will die. Not because he is born of sin, but simply because he is not God.

You've not cleared your first lie here
According to Islam as you said here "The Quran repeats the fact that every soul will taste death. [size=14pt]At the point of division everything (everyone plus everything - all the earths and all the heavens) will be destroyed and only God shall remain.[/size] Then the Resurrection, and Judgment."

ALL THE EARTHS AND THE HEAVENS (plural) will be DESTROYED and ONLY GOD will remain which means everything will be back to ETERNITY when it was ONLY GOD.
For you to claim RESURRECTION here again is ridiculous RECREATION IS DIFFERENT FROM RESURRECTION.
So what Allah will do according to your theology is RECREATION not resurrection which is against Quranic teaching.

Islam Isa will die but not Jesus the one who created the Universe the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

No, death is not a punishment. Satan will also die plus be resurrected to be tortured for eternity in hell.

This your theology lacks common sense, why will Allah kill people including Angels that know no sin only to RESURRECT THEM BACK to live and throw some of them again to hell.
Like I said before, DEATH IS A PUNISHMENT for Adam's disobedient. That's the fact.

[b]The QUESTIONS I WANT TO ASK YOU NOW WHICH I'M NOT EXPECTING YOU TO IGNORE ARE THESE, [size=14pt]1. WHY MUST THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT COME?
2. Do you think if Satan had not sinned or creations aren't being polluted with SIN, Allah will still judge people or talk about judgement day?
3. How does the phrase JUDGEMENT DAY come into use, is it because Allah Just want to destroy everything he had created without blemish or because of sin (disobedient)?[/size]

So Jesus died for our sins? OK, so what must I do now? [size=14pt]I'm I free to sin for sin is no more?[/size] If I should believe in this crucifiction to obtain the license to sin, then isn't it unfair to the aborigines in the middle of the Amazons of this earth who have not heard of this lamb of sacrifie? How could God be the creator of injustice?

Your problem is simple comprehension.
As I've explained on DEATH before, the second death means TOTAL SEPARATION FROM THE PRESENCE OF GOD and this is caused because of the TAINTED NATURE WE DERIVED FROM ADAM THROUGH HIS SIN. Which is the one Jesus came to replace by GIVING A NEW NATURE.
We all derived PHYSICAL TAINTED NATURE FROM the first Adam but a NEW NATURE through the second Adam.

So the other aspect of SIN which is what flows from Satan i.e Murder, stealing, immorality, lying e.t.c are still in the world today.

Now this is the logic behind it, God has replaced the NATURE Adam lost in the past through Jesus Christ (NOTE: this TAINTED NATURE is what that make Adam lost the paradise i.e benefit of staying in the PRESENCE of God). So Jesus had broken that veil an open the Gate BACK TO THE PRESENCE of God for MAN.

Both Death and Alive will surely heard about Jesus Christ so don't say it's injustice.

We are ALL born with pure natures. How dare you think of new born babies as being born in sin? Furthermore what about those people before Christ? Those who have not heard of Christ?

We are ALL PARTAKER OF THAT ADAMIC TAINTED NATURE we are not born with PURE NATURE, so no human has is PERSONAL NATURE which will make the person different from other people, the nature of animal, Jinn, Angels are different from man, MAN HAS ONLY ONE NATURE AND THIS NATURE CAME FROM THE ONE OF THAT TAINTED MAN, ADAM.

Everyone born before Christ shared the same tainted nature babies do also that's why MAN DIE. Had it been that the NATURE OF ADAM wasn't tainted nobody will ever die. Everybody both death and alive will hear about Jesus.

Pauline Philosophy is a monstrously unjust,and I marvel at you for ignoring the injustice of the God of St Paul.

And your Islamic philosophy is awkward.
You called it injustice but can still refer to Paul as SAINT, anyway the God of Paul is the Father of Jesus Christ, the one who created Adam and Eve, and the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

I don't seem to understand what you're asking here, sorry.

It's better you do because your lies are just too much.
This is your statement: "He might have known that Adam and Eve will equal him in sin when he set out to [/u]seduce them into sin.[/u]

And my respond to this lie was centered at the @underline by asking you was the statement made when Satan went to seduce them or when he didn't bow for Adam

Allah doesn't need to answer that and neither do I.
Think more deeply and you'll see why.

So I should think on what Allah didn't say neither you, so I should think on NOTHING.

No, you should listen to the entire thing.

Post it here I can't listen to what I can't respond to.

You're welcome. May God guide you too away from Christianity into the light of the faith of Abraham, whose belief was simple.

Delusion and you think I praise you here, smh...
God has already guided me by revealing Himself to me it's you God needs to guide away from your darkness into the Light of His Gospel in the face of Jesus Christ.

I killed an ant. Does that mean that ant died because of sin? Come on, use your God given sense of reason.

If Adam didn't sin you won't see ant to kill, true or false or there's ant in paradise?
I'm using it, but do me a favor by putting your own God's given sense into use always.

Do you agree with me that some Christians don't believe in Original Sin and that Christians differ as to the definition?

Do you also agree with me that some Christians don't believe in the virgin birth and that Muslims also differ in doctrine?
Using this as a yard stick belittle common sense.

Adam led us out of Paradise but we don't inherit his nature

But you come from Adam's body.

we have our own natures which is pure in our birth.

Pure lie if you have your own nature that means you're not human because ALL HUMAN BEING DERIVED THEIR NATURE THROUGH ADAM.

To return back to Paradise, we don't need a lamb of sacrifice. We only need to accept God, and be in a continual state of repentance. See how this belief differs widely to the mainstream understanding of Original Sin

And by accepting God and being in continual state of repentance, can you boldly say with 100% assurance that YOU HAVE PLEASED GOD 100% totally throughout your life?
Original sin still stands, we know death and sin through Adam's disobedient. FACT!

No, shared?

According to your version of Christianity what is the fate of Adam?

YES, WE ALL SHARED ADAMIC NATURE and that's what make us a human.
The fate of Adam lies in Jesus' hands. I know you'll still confuse but only if you know that Jesus Christ predated His life on earth and since no MAN (including Muhammad) can come to the Father except through Jesus.

Do they bring up scriptural evidence as in the case of Original Sin?

No! They always support it with Quran and Hadith

There is a difference in opinion regarding this, I believe but I take the view that Adam was informed that he was forgiven only on earth.

YET you're crying me a river above when Christians differ in the topic of ORIGINAL SIN.
And any open minded person can see your lying tongue because the verse clearly stated that Allah pardoned Adam sin that's why I added verse 38 to it so that you can see that THE CONVERSATION OF PARDONING ADAM'S SIN STILL OCCUR IN PARADISE WHEN ALLAH WAS ADDRESSING THE DISOBEDIENT OF ADAM.

Look here, Adam received the words of Repentance after "then".

Lie number five, show me where you see 'THEN' in that verse.

I follow this interpretation : Here God is speaking to us all Mankind. Notice how God says us what to do and not to do. There is no need of a lamb of sacrifice to purify ourselves of sin. We should follow the guidance of God is all.

Lie number six. Like I said above, verse 36-38 show that the CONVERSATION WAS STILL IN PARADISE with a solid support from verse 38 "We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise),..."

Another point here is that if you believed that Allah is addressing MANKIND here it means you've short yourself in the legs because it will simply means that Allah has already picture the whole HUMAN RACE IN THE BODY OF ADAM and it was this SINFUL/TAINTED/POLLUTED nature of Adam which is prone to SIN that will cause some people to listen to Satan or Allah.

Repentance96:
It is but one man's fallible understanding of the life and death of Jesus (as), one man who never met the Blessed Messiah in front of independent witnesses and then gave contradictory accounts of his conversion. One man whose teachings contradict the Gospels as we know it, who argues with the disciples and who parted ways with James and the Early Church.

Imaging Paul never met the Blessed Messiah and gave a contradictory account of his conversion and I guess that Muhammad also met the Blessed Messiah or Moses, right? Yet his message contradicted both Jesus and Moses.

-Muhammad's teaching contradict the message of Moses
-Muhammad's teaching contradict the message of Jesus Christ
-Muhammad's teaching contradict the message of the Apostles

Yes. In the absence of external (demonic forces) man will be innocent and pure. All babies are born pure in the state of fithra and it is external forces that influence the soul in a negative way. [size=14pt]If not for Satan, we wouldn't have sinned[/size] Sin came from a conscious being that challenged the justice of God. We shouldn't lay the blame on Iblis though, [size=14pt]we should accept that Adam and Eve sinned after letting their pure natures be tainted with false promises.[/size]

I'm so happy for the @bolds especially the last @bold with @underline because it proves again the point you're trying so hard to cover.
Now let's look at it,
When Adam and Eve allowed Satan to TAINTED their PURE NATURE (NOTE: You're the one who used NATURE). Then EVERY HUMAN BEING came from Adam it means THEY ALL will also SHARE in the TAINTED NATURE OF ADAM.
Unless you want to tell us that Allah destroyed THAT TAINTED NATURE and gave Adam another nature. But if it's the same TAINTED NATURE that every human came from my brother you inherited a TAINTED NATURE from Adam.

In Islam sin is not a state but kufr (rebellion) is. Sin is temporary injustice in the eyes of God. It is not a state we all are in.

Then if sin is not a state, will Adam and Eve will have died in PARADISE if they didn't sin?

Did Allah then not promise to return those who reject satan for Paradise? That is the forgiveness but His Forgiveness does not contradict His Justice, so He promises to put all of us, each and one of us, to the test. The consequence of Adam's sin was removed from Adam (he is returned back to Paradise), but the consequence for all of us were not. This is not due to Adam's sin though (as the Hadith clearly clarifies) - it was a matter predestined.

That's is a pure lie! If Adam had not sinned, he will not be banished out of paradise and death won't have come true or false? Because you can't tell me that Allah has it in mind that Adam will die in the paradise.

The Quran does not say that - instead it says that all of us (Muslims) will have to pass through it. This is in reference to the literal bridge over the Fire, as well as the figurative means by which we attain Paradise.

I can see figurative indeed. Anyway that's a topic for another day.

Everything will be destroyed and all souls will taste death, before everything is recreated as a new creation and all souls resurrected. By [size=14pt]"everything" I mean everything in this world - where time and space is bound by God's laws of nature. As to Paradise and Hell, they are of the other world where time and space do not function the same way as in this world.[/size] For example we believe that all the Prophets (sal) are alive but in their graves. At the same time we believe that they met in heaven. How is that possible? That is because Paradise does not run like our world does. It is not bound by the same laws of nature. Bilal was alive on earth, but the Prophet (Sal) heard his footsteps when he visited the other world. I hope you get it. All angels, Jinn and man will face death again in the Day of Judgement while this world will be transformed to something new.

It's just a shame that you can open your mouth to spew this broad day lie.
As you said in the @bold part, can you see your life outside?
This is your previous statement: "The Quran repeats the fact that every soul will taste death. [size=14pt]At the point of division everything (everyone plus everything - all the earths and all the heavens) will be destroyed and only God shall remain. Then the Resurrection, and Judgment."[/size]

From here we can deduce that:
1. It's a believe in ISLAM
2. Everything will be destroyed which earth and HEAVENS (Plural) are part of it
3. Only GOD WILL REMAIN (which then take everything back to when ONLY GOD EXISTED before the creation).

In conclusion it means Muhammad and all Muslims will be destroyed by Allah even after they're being faithful not does this only look ridiculous also the Angels that never disobeyed Allah will also be destroyed.

Now you've change your mouth what a shame.

Only the evil of the evil will dwell eternally in Hell. It is not a wasted effort. It is justice served.

But Allah will destroy everything (AS ONLY ALLAH WILL REMAIN) before he created them back which means EVERYONE will face the same punishment met for Satan before they were restored back to perfect state.

As I asked you at the beginning - do not confuse yourself by falsely premising Islamic theology on the phrase "the wages of sin is death". That is a premise in Pauline Philosophy, and it is not found in Judaism and Islam. Unless you are weak in your reasoning skills, you mustn't assume certain statements which you know is not a premise in the argument you are trying to refute. You are denying that death can be passed onto beings free of sin, [size=14pt]as if death was the result of sin.[/size]

And what I'm here to do is to show you that Islamic premise also support the state of Pauline INSPIRED WORDS that "the wages of Sin is death" since it seems that you people don't fully understand this great revealed word of God.

If death was not the result of sin, will Adam and Eve have died IN THE PARADISE if they haven't sinned?

What is death, anyway? Does it always have the same meaning? Is it the soul being separated from the body? Is it an everlasting state of no life? Is it the act of losing conciousness? What is it for it to be the wages of sin itself!

You got it right to some extent.
1. Death is the soul being separated from the body
2. Death is an everlasting state of no life (which is spiritual separation from God's presence eternally due to sin).

Now for it to be "the wages of sin" is that if God didn't rescue us through His provincial sacrifice when the first Adam LOST THE REAL NATURE by allowed it to be TAINTED by Satan by sending the SECOND ADAM who HAS A NEW NATURE to replace the TAINTED NATURE of the first Adam EVERYONE WILL BE IN THE STATE OF NO LIFE which is the second death.

Now you can appreciate the point the inspired Apostle Paul is bringing out here even according to Islam no doubt that Adam can't go back to paradise with that TAINTED NATURE, that nature must surely be replaced by Allah WHICH IS NOW A GIFT TO ADAM. So by completing Paul's statement "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord Rom 6:23 you can fully respect his inspired word.

He might have known that Adam and Eve will equal him him in sin when he set out to seduce them into sin. God predicted to him that he would succeed anyway.

Imaging the @bold-was the statement made when Satan went to seduce them or when he didn't bow for Adam

Come on, did Allah say that He misleaded Iblis? It was Iblis saying that. He was the first one to bring up the argument of determinism vs freewill. Iblis thought that he cannot bow down because Allah designed him that way. This is wrong and false and dangerous to think. This is the crown of Atheism and the Rebellion against God. Denying freedom of choice is disbelief in God.

But Allah couldn't deny Iblis statement or explain further why Satan was wrong for accusing him with such wild statement instead Allah addressed another issue just unfortunate now that you're the one speaking for Allah what he supposed to have clarified.

Adam on the other hand fully acknowledges his freedom of choice and thus repents and his repentance is accepted.

And then Adam and ALL FAITHFUL SLAVES including upright Angels will be destroyed by Allah before recreated them back.

If you don't get it please listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpZH1lQmuE4

No time you can copy and paste it here...

Everyone will face death. Those who follow Iblis will then be thrown into a state between life and death in the Fire. Those who reject Iblis will be rewarded with eternal life in both spirit and flesh.

But before the reward Adam and ALL FAITHFUL SLAVES including upright Angels will be destroyed by Allah before recreated them back according to you.

You are very shallow in your understanding.

Thanks and you're very broad in your understanding.

I can't believe that you are asking this question. Adam and Eve will enjoy eternal life in Paradise while Iblis will enjoy tormenting himself and his followers in Hell forever and ever.

But Adam and Eve will still face the same torment by being DESTROYED before recreated.

What do you think "destroying" means? Cannot Allah destroy everyone and create them in new forms in a new creation before the Day of Judgement?

Of course Allah can, since he has been doing such but a just God won't destroy A FAITHFUL SERVANTS or ANGELS a Just God will ONLY PUNISH THE WORLD OF SIN.

Original sin is debunked in the very same hadith. It is not a sin that lead us to earth, it is the plan and decision of God. Earth is not our permanent home, it is only a testing ground. This life is not eternal. Allah created us from earth, for earth but when we are returned to him we will be as a new creation.

I'm expecting you to show me how the HADITH debunked the Original Sin, when Musa said categorically that "You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden."
In fact this is a clear statement which means even Moses himself believed that HAD IT BEEN THAT ADAM DIDN'T SIN, PEOPLE WON'T BE LED ASTRAY OR KNOW SIN and MISSED THE PARADISE.
To support the original sin theory you agreed that ADAM'S NATURE WAS TAINTED by Satan's action.

Let me ask again, would Adam and Eve will have died in the paradise if they didn't sin?

Everything? Disobedience? Where does Iblis come into the picture then? So according to Paul Adam is in hell?

Satan is the one who caused the fall which means Adam lost his TRUE NATURE and ALL DESCENDANTS OF ADAM SHARED in the same TAINTED NATURE.
Where did you read that Adam is in Hell?

Christians themselves differ as to whether or not Original Sin is a true concept, and what exactly it is. You cannot deny this

Some Christians even deny the virgin birth of Jesus. What about that?

Yes. Adam and Eve was promised eternal life after they repented. But for us, their children, we have to prove ourselves on earth.

[size=14pt]I think you are not aware that Adam and Eve repented only AFTER they came to earth.[/size] Their repentance was accepted because they blamed themselves. So yes the consequences of their sin was eliminated and transformed by their repentance. Sin is not inherited (no son will carry the burden of his father), but the consequences of sin can. We are still born in state of purity and this belief contradicts the mainstream understanding of Original Sin.

Kia Kia, see another broad day lie even in your own Quran.
How dare you said "I think you are not aware that Adam and Eve repented only AFTER they came to earth. you're a disgrace to Islam and I see how your fellow brother who couldn't use their brain encomium you. What a shame

Let's see how serious you are by looking at this Surah:
"36. Then the Shaitan (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time."

37. [size=14pt]Then Adam received from his Lord Words . And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.[/size]

38. We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve." Surah 2:36-38

Verse 37 emphatically said that Allah accepts HIS REPENTANCE and verse 38 goes further to say that Adam was cast down to earth.
When you don't even know your Quran, do I need to disturb myself any longer?

Since your Quran proves that Adam had been forgiven in paradise, while did Allah still cast him down to earth? If not because Allah sees something wrong with HIS TAINTED NATURE.

The beasts of the earth were - for example dinosaurs. The angels saw how evolution involved a lot of bloodshed - that's one possible reason why they questioned God (God allowed them to).

So it's not Allah that created the Dinosaurs but they were made through evolution, that's right!

I mean that their weren't any other possible objects of worship - so no risk of shirk even if they had free will.

But wouldn't Allah have told them that NONE of HIS creature deserves BOWING DOWN since some Angels can do so for being like Jinn or among themselves?

No. Bowing down was not considered an act of worship when done under the command of the God being worshipped.

Imaging so it means Allah is not a being of his word and can raise a created being to his own position. what a God!

We do works in obedience to God.
That's why Iblis didn't bow. The angels accepted that God knew better than them, so when He says to bow they all bowed. Iblis meanwhile acts as the champion of the Rebellious (atheists and their likes). He used his God given sense of rationality, forgetting that it was the same Creator asking him to bow down, to argue that what was being asked was unjust and illogical.

Iblis knew that it's irrational for a God to raise a created being to his own position or allow anyone to take his glory by commanding other to do the art that met for God to another that's why he didn't bow yet Allah still banished him for his total obedient.

That's why you yourself can said that BOWING DOWN was allowed for some people but now it was no longer permitted.

Remember you lied that Angels don't have their own freewill

Keep the lying coming I'm here for you, 3 lies now!

Repentance96:
Unfortunately you are confusing Islamic theology with elements of Pauline Philosophy.

You called it philosophy but let's see how his philosophy surpasses that of Allah.

Like the Jews, we Muslims don't believe in Original Sin (we don't take Paul's words as God's words). We believe that every soul is originally pure in the purest nature.

So if there's no original sin and every SOUL was originally PURE, where does sin come from?
From this statement of yours "...pure in the purest nature" we can infer that SIN was not in the plan of MAN

We believe that Sin cannot be inherited, that every man bears the consequences of his actions. We believe that God is Most Merciful, and that He is a Great Forgiver.

Lol...
If sin can't be inherited and Allah is a great forgiver, why Allah didn't leave Adam and Eve in the so called paradise? AFTER ALL Quran claimed that Adam was forgiven
What did Allah see in Adam and Eve that made him banished them out of paradise after their sin has been forgiven?

We believe that it was always the plan of God to divide the passage of time, once He had begun it into two distinct phases. One temporary, the other eternal and everlasting. One where God is "veiled" and the other when all Sovereignty will be for him. The Quran repeats the fact that every soul will taste death. [size=14pt]At the point of division everything (everyone plus everything - all the earths and all the heavens) will be destroyed and only God shall remain.[/size] Then the Resurrection, and Judgment.

Please please, the @bold statement not only laughable but utmost ridiculous, in fact it's just too funny that an educated person can reason in such way.

How did Iblis know that every soul will taste death, when is he Allah?
Where in the Quran that it was written that Allah explained in detail how the end of creation will be for the jins and angels?

Imaging everything (including everyone, earth and heavens will be destroyed) before resurrection, and judgment.
Please will Muhammad and the pious saints who are in heaven now according to Muslim also be destroyed?
Kia, no wonder Quran says ALL OF YOU (Muslims) shall not escape HELL.

Again after Allah destroyed EVERYTHING including Muhammad, he will then RECREATE (because it won't be resurrection again) everybody back to life and then Judge them and re-destroy them back by condemning them to HELL again. What a wasted effort and poor logic.

The idea that death came into the world with man is baseless. The Quran acknowledges the presence of beasts before Mankind and throughout the universe. Death is predestined for everything and everyone except the Eternal One.

Ehh ehh, including the just Angels are predestined to past through death when they're ALWAYS IN OBEDIENT TO ALLAH.
Again why Allah didn't leave Adam and Eve in PARADISE after he forgave them?

I believe yes, Iblis knew that Adam and Eve was destined to Earth. He might have known that Adam and Eve would be swayed into sin, and so equal him in sin. He would have been a witness to the covenant Allah established between Him and each and one of us before birth. God clearly informed Iblis of success with regards to a portion from Mankind

Now you are using uncertainty word "He MIGHT"
If Iblis might have known that Adam and Eve will equal him in sin as it implies that Adam and Eve haven't been created, it proves my point that Iblis knows the unseen because Iblis ONLY SINNED when he failed to bow for Adam shortly after Adam was created.

39. [Iblis (Satan)] said: [size=14pt]"O my Lord! Because you misled me,[/size] I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead them all.
40. "Except Your chosen, (guided) slaves among them."
41. (Allah) said: "This is the Way which will lead straight to Me."
42. "Certainly, you shall have no authority over My slaves, except those who follow you of the Ghawin (Mushrikun and those who go astray, criminals, polytheists, and evil-doers, etc.).
43. "And surely, Hell is the promised place for them all.
44. "It (Hell) has seven gates, for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.
(Al-Quran, Surah Al-Hijr).

You ignored the @bold part in the OP which I thought I'll remind you but you've finally re-posted it.
@underline-Why will Allah mislead Iblis?

Very funny of you, so after Allah pronounced HELL to those who will dance to tune of Iblis, Allah will later SEND ALL HIS FAITHFUL SLAVES TO EXTINCTION by destroying EVERYTHING including Muhammad and recreated them back, so what is the different between the punishment of those who follow Iblis from those Allah's slaves?

This is the beauty of Islamic theology. This is the Truth. We were meant for Paradise but destined to be tested on earth.

Very ridiculous theology! After Allah's faithful slaves pass his test, Allah will later DESTROY ALL OF THEM before recreated them back.

Why test us though? Because of Satan's challenge. God expelled him for disobedience, so God should also expel anyone that disobeys him.

Then if this is true, Allah is not a great forgiver because I can't phantom claimed to forgive someone and still PUNISH the person.
Iblis disobeyed and he didn't ask for forgiveness Allah casting him out of heaven is justified but Adam and Eve disobeyed and asked for forgiveness, Allah forgave them AND STILL CAST THEM OUT of heaven. What is the different between the judgement of Iblis who isn't a repentance and Adam and Eve who repented and got forgiveness from Allah?

He lets us prove ourselves better than Satan and his allies on earth. God's promise to Satan is that - take all your friends with you to Hell and I'll take my true slaves to myself.

Then after Satan takes all his friends to HELL, Allah will later destroy both HIS OWN TRUE SLAVES and ALL Satan's FRIENDS together.
Which means the judgement that meant for Satan must spread to Allah's true slaves likewise.

Malik Muwatta
Book 46, Number 46.1.1:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa. Musa rebuked Adam, [size=14pt]'You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.'[/size] Adam said to him, 'You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.' He said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you then censure me for a matter which was decreed for me before I was created?' "

This is an eyes opener for a true seeker of the True God.
Notice how the @bold part forfeited the claim that there's no ORIGINAL SIN. Musa used PEOPLE which means MANKIND here and he said ADAM BROUGHT THEM OUT OF THE GARDEN when in reality it was ONLY Adam and Eve that were cast out of the garden!
According to this Hadith, Musa himself knows that, it was as a result of Adam's sin that PEOPLE LED ASTRAY (BEGIN TO SIN) and SUFFERING ON EARTH TODAY. How dare you challenge the authoritative and inspired word of Apostle Paul?
I know majority of Muslims didn't know the meaning of "ORIGINAL SIN" whereas ORIGINAL SIN simply means everything MAN experienced on earth today was as a result of ADAM's DISOBEDIENT. Can you see how your Islamic theology also prove ORIGINAL SIN to be true?

This matter (the "Fall" was predestined so as to be just with regards to Iblis. God has to be consistent with his judgement.

No, Allah wasn't consistent with his judgement by judging the person who asked for forgiveness and was forgiven and the person who doesn't ask at all the same way.

If He condemns Iblis for just one Sin, He cannot give a free pass to us. As for the sin itself, Adam bettered Satan and asked for repentance and forgiveness while blaming himself. Satan never asked for forgiveness, instead he blamed God himself. Adam blamed his own self (his free will), while Iblis blamed predestination. This is the essence of the sixth article of faith in the Islamic creed.

He condemned iblis JUST FOR ONE SIN why Iblis never asked for forgiveness AND also CONDEMNED Adam and Eve JUST FOR ONE SIN after they asked for forgiveness and being forgiven yet you call him a great forgiver.

Yes. Iblis could have easily deduced this. If you know that God intends a Day of Judgement, and that death occurs on earth you can easily deduce that God intends Resurrection. Anyways, the angels immediately asked God when He first broke the news of Adam's role on earth why God intended bloodshed and evil on earth as per their understanding. Evolution involves bloodshed and freewill involved evil, why should God introduce man also to this? God answers them in a marvelous way if you read the entire passage.

But Allah will first destroy EVERYTHING including Muhammad before resurrection, waoooo
Imaging evolution involves bloodshed when man is not yet on earth or you mean people are already living on earth through the spontaneous soup of evolution before Allah later created Adam

Free will involves evil again, how did angels know? or someone has already misused his/her free will before Iblis did?

I think English is not your first language but even so you must have understood what I had written. God didn't command the angels to bow to Him ONLY, there was no command to reject anyone else because [size=14pt]firstly there wasn't anyone else[/size] and secondly the angels have no choice in the matter anyway. God ordered them to bow to Adam, so they all bowed except Iblis who was a Jinn who thought God was being unjust.

Imaging the @bold, so if there's no anyone else Jinns and other angels are not being right? According to Islam theology, Jinn and Angel are not the same.

It is only in our Shariah that bowing down to creation is haraam. Previously literally bowing was allowed to Kings, prophets and their likes but not now. Angels "bowed" to creation because God commanded to do so. Their action is not one of worship to creation, but one of obedience to God. They all accepter that Adam has the potential to better them in the eyes of Allah. This acceptance and action is also a way in which they glorified the works of Allah.

Lol...so those Kings and prophets are not creatures but divine that's why Allah will allow it for them and later reverted it for you.

Not one of WORSHIP! what kind obedience are you talking about here?

Imaging they all accepted that Adam has the potential to better them in the eyes of Allah whereas the angels are the messengers of Allah who can see Allah, talk to Allah but Adam can't do all these.

Enough of this laughable post jare...

Repentance96:
Iblis does not have any knowledge of the unseen, except when informed by Allah or through the power of Allah.

So it was Allah who told Iblis that there will be RESURRECTION OF THE DEATH when the act that brought death on earth has never even happened.

Please did Allah also tell Iblis that he'll be one who will deceive Adam and Eve?

I don't know why you think that Iblis when he was the leader of the angels, knew facts of the unseen [size=14pt]just because he knew that Man was destined to Earth[/size] unless I assume you are very ignorant when it comes to the Quran.
Iblis knew it simply because Allah informed the angels (of whom he lead):
[i]And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know. [/i]2:30

Lol...Allah's plan is to create Adam on earth but shortly after creating them, Adam and Eve were given a GARDEN IN PARADISE.

The key point you're missing is this, Iblis says "the Day the (dead) are raised"

Was it Allah who told Iblis this also?

Allah never previously commanded the angels to bow to Him only alone.

Imaging, and you're the who said maybe I'm ignorant of Qur'an but we can see how this perfectly described you.

This is from the verse you quoted "while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?"

So you mean these angels are carrying out this specific task while STANDING or just feel relax on bed not by bowing down

The angels simply followed the orders of Allah, and in Islam the angels are thought to be different from Mankind and Jinnkind in that they are not burdened with a freedom of choice. Iblis was and is a Jinn.

Your post full of funny statements, so until Allah commanded Angels to declare his praise and sanctify him they ONLY do so, no Angel can do so on his own accord

Whereas we see Angel having his own choice in the Quran.

yazach:
why can't you continue with your orange as your name implies Since that is what you know how to do

Looking for opportunity to derail this thread, sorry such opportunity won't be given to you.

Address the OP.

kingkaspa:
Yeah, that's my perspective. The world will be a better place when we can all think out of the box and not just believe all we were taught as kids. Most of the stories in the holy books are middle east and roman mythologies that were modified and shaped to fit in to some individual's ideology some thousand years ago.

Since you've agreed that it's your perspective. I'm satisfied!

So kindly allow people to comment.

Thanks.

kingkaspa:
It is simple, all the stories as stated by the OP are myths.

From your own perspective!

kingkaspa:
Most of the stories in the supposed holy books are myths passed down to generations.

How does this address the OP

pipeewa:
Kindly share your experience. it could do a lot of good. pls dont hold back.

Actually, I won't hold back because it's the strong evidence I have today about God existence.

Let me give you a quick background of myself.
I was born and raised in C & S (though today I'm not attending C & S, mind you I didn't leave because whether something is wrong them if I go back to my hometown is still same church I attend), so whether you know more about them or you've heard something about them but one thing you can't take away from C & S is how they always talk about being FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT (though some are fake but some are true).

So while I was still attending C & S I use to make jest of them whenever I see them do all sort of things when said they being filled with the Holyspirit, there is no how people will move I will never move or fall. Enough of that.

Now my first encounter happened in 2005 (mind you I'm through with secondary then---to show you that I'm not more a kid that someone can say maybe it's illusion or just imagination), on that faithful night around 12:00am I didn't sleep on time so when I wanted to sleep I just moved and I told myself let me pray, So as I was praying as usual I started by giving thanks to God next asking for the forgiveness of my sin after these two prayers, I started to ask that Holy spirit should empower me (Note I'm just praying a normal prayer not that I have it in mind that something will happen) So as I was praying this prayer SUDDENLY I began to fill a powerful FORCE moving close to me IN FORM OF A PERSON (I'm alone in my room and my door was locked) shortly I begin to speak in tongues and The Person keeps moving towards me on getting to where i knee down I fill His touch but as something I never experience before I was so scared that made me to stand up but immediately I got up everything back to normal.

I began to ask myself different questions i.e did I just speak in tongue now, who touched me, where does this powerful force came from? e.t.c

The second encountered happened in 2008, it starts like the first one but it was then I experienced everything I missed when I got scared and stood up in the first encounter. This time around, He lifted me up by Himself when I was still kneeing down praying and wrap me IN Himself and when He was leaving He backed it up with promise.

I'm not expecting you to welcome my story but everyone has a story to tell in life this happened to be one of my own and in reality that's one of the things I have experienced in life. You may discard my story (as you're not there) but you can't take the reality away from me.

Please permit me to quote this verse to show you that the God that Christians serve, He's ready to reveal Himself to anyone who is ready to know Him. "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him" John 14:21 KJV

Emphasis @underline

Shalom!

I'll use the stone of this surah to kill two birds but I want the readers to have the following in mind as s/he reads through this article.
1) That Quran itself testifies that before Adam and Eve sinned they were living in PARADISE not on Earth.
2) That this conversation between Allah and Satan (Iblis) took place BEFORE Adam and Eve eventually SINNED.

Now in Allah’s command to the angels to bow down to Adam shortly after Adam was created, and what happened after that, is very interested to consider. This story was repeated at least seven times in the Qu’ran which can be found in Surah 2, 7, 15, 17, 18, 20, and 38.

But let me quote only Surah 15:35-37, 39.

35 "And the curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment."
36 (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
37 (Allah) said: "Respite is granted thee…
39 “…I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong Y. Ali

Satan seems to know the unseen!
Here we see Allah talking about "The Day of Judgement," (When Adam and Eve were just created without sin or ever sinned) though one can say well it’s because Allah is All-knowing but the next statement by Satan is alarming, why? We see Satan talking about “The Day the (DEAD) are raised”, really!
How come Satan knows that there will be RESURRECTION of the dead when DEATH has not even occurred nor the event that leads to death had happened? In fact Satan reinforced his statement by saying “I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to THEM ON EARTH”. ON EARTH!!! How come? Does Satan actually know that Adam and Eve will sin and cast out from PARADISE to EARTH? Whereas Allah said this angels don't know what he knows.

Satan was led astray by Allah
In the same Surah I quoted above verse 39 reads “(Iblis) said: ‘O my Lord! Because Thou hast put me in the wrong,…’” Y. Ali

We see here that Allah led Satan astray.
Well if this translation seems not be cleared enough let’s see how other translations rendered this particular statement.

“He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast made life evil to me,...” M. Habib Shakir
“He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast sent me astray,…” M. Pickthall
“Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me,…” Mohsin Khan.
“He said 'O my Lord, I swear of that. You led me astray,…” Ahadees

The question one can ask is, how did Allah mislead Satan? Well Quran itself seems to have the answer when it says ONLY ALLAH should be bowing to NO other being, so Satan actually obeying the word of Allah but unfortunately Satan has to get the reward for his obedient by being cast out from paradise.

(Satan be like, since we’re being told that NO Being should be bowing to except Allah, this one now to bow for Adam again might be a test from Allah to know who will fall victim let me quickly obey the first instruction.)

pipeewa:
Kindly contribute reasonably and objectively to this.

What do Christians stand to lose if at the end of it all they found out there was no God?

In the first place God is not a Myth simply because many Christians have personal encounter with God Himself just has God promised to reveal Himself.

God has visited twice, anyway I know you'll either call it delusion, simply imagination from my mind or fake story.

Well anyhow you feel, this is for you:

If you've never had supernatural experience you can doubt supernatural existence...I was once in that shoe!

playboy99:
"Yesterday an ISIS member stopped the car of a
Christian couple.
ISIS member: Are you Muslim?
Christian man: Yes, I'm Muslim.
ISIS member: If you are a Muslim, then recite a verse
of Quran.
Christian man recited a verse from the Bible.
ISIS member: Ok allah go.
Later his wife tells him: "I cannot believe the risk you
just took.
Why did u tell him that we are Muslims?
If he knew you were lying he would have killed both
of us."
"Do not worry! If they knew the Quran they would not
kill people" answered the Husband.
ISIS is not Islam, TERRORISM HAS NO RELIGION.
Kindly share it as much as you can."
#ACE

OP you're right terrorism has no religion but it's unfortunate that Muslims had made Islam adopted terrorism as part of its doctrine.

@OP, what if you want to keep your work but your work doesn't want to keep you

maryjames9:
Nigerians are dump. Nigerian youth are bunch of disgrace. Those idiots in senate keep fighting each other just for their selfish interests and off course their family and close associates while you FOOLS are here defending them. You Saraki and tinubu supporters are just idiots. Instead of Nigerians to shut down the whole assembly,stone every politician(thiefs),demand for jobs,better roads,education and life,you punk ass are here divided over tribes. Nigeria cant be better with these type of crazy,senseless,tribalistic,uneducated youth. These guys havent passed any law,they are pratically holding nigeria at the jagular,yet we keep backing tinubu a thief against saraki a thief. Shame on ya all. Spit

No truth can be said after this, I always laugh at Nigerians' Youth both APC & PDP supporters the way they reason.

The irony part of it is that, the same Youth who sees Saraki as devil and corrupt through his false diversion of state allocation now, are the same Youth who was jubilating when the same Saraki decamped from PDP to APC.

The question I ask myself since this issue of Saraki started was, didn't APC know all this before he was welcome and embraced into their camp?

I weep silently for Nigerian's Youth.