₦airaland Forum

Are these part of a verse or the whole verse?

TenQ:
I said:

Is the Arabic: مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ
the same as
In English: "confirming what is between His hands"?


This is a proof that Your English translations of the Qur'an CANNOT be Trusted one bit.


Translate the phrase : مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ

It is a word for word extract from Qur'an 3:3

Why do your scholars mistranslate such a simple Arabic?

Verses of the Quran are read, understood and translated within their contexts or columns and according to the grammatical progression of their speech, and in accordance with the grammatical formation of their words.

Not your mischief intended Tafseer-e-ayaat of word to word translation.

What is research?
What do you know of research methods?

TenQ:
You are saying that a publication written in 2008 is your source for an event that occurred almost 4000 years ago!?

I am not understanding!

Any source that would negate the account of Genesis by Moses must be at least as old as Moses.

I guess that Tolga Savaş Altınel person is also now a prophet of Islam!
LOL!

A proposition built on faulty premise is?

If you can analyse the Sahih Muslim hadith you put up in Arabic you will see the arabic word: كتب which translates to mean write, record, write down, pen, compose, prescribe

prescribe verb (MAKE RULE)

[ T ] formal to tell someone what they must have or do, or to make a rule of something:

TenQ:
Why did you not just answer my specific questions on each hadith?

Once you answer the, I the truth will be obvious to you.

No one gives pen and paper to am illeterate : do they!?

How much research have you yourself done?
In any case read: AN EVALUATION OF THE IDENTITY OF SĀMİRĪ IN THE QURʾĀN by
Tolga Savaş Altınel

Qur'an 20:85: a Samaritan in the time of Moses? - Khaled Colwill


https://qurantalkblog.com/2019/07/05/clear-quran-critique/

TenQ:
I asked you some basic questions about your source of History and you bring forth Wikipedia!?
Does this even make sense to you in a discussion involving history lasting almost 4000 years ago?

Where is the source of your research?
How old is your source?
Did the eye witness document the History of the As-Samari?

If your source is younger than the Torah, I am sorry, it is fake!
If your source is not from the first party concerned, I am sorry it is a conjecture.

Like I said:
Neigher Mohammed nor Allah explained who the As-Samari is, where did you get your history?
Why does your history contradict the version of Moses himself?

I admit my errors when I am wrong and there is no shame in that.

I am not like you who will insist on riding your errors as long as Mohammed and Islam is protected. Please get this right. I only God is infallible.

I will commend those who made great efforts at translating or explaining however one may be wrong to assign perfection to them. More so I doubt there are any of the numerous hadith you rely on that categorically say Muhammad pbuh identified who As-samiri is.

TenQ:
Meaning that your Islamic scholars are making conjectures which were not substantiated with old historical facts.

Such will definitely occur when piece bit translations are made and attention is not paid to the influence of other words on another in the sentence.

Let's be logical here the Quran is confirming itself or what people new that had been revealed before?

Musnad al-Imam Ahmad is not a sahih book, as Imam Ahmad never claimed in his book to quote only sahih narrations, rather than collecting the biggest amount of sunnah which is used as evidence by scholars.

Ahmad himself said: "I have only included a hadith in this book if it had been used as evidence by some of the scholars."

And ibn al-Jawzi claimed that the Musnad contains ahadith that are fabricated.

Note that some scholars say that the son of Imam Ahmad added a couple of ahadith to his fathers Musnad and this was the source of many da'if ahadith in it.

Your rush to hadith drive your arguments may get you into eternal trouble. Never mind the online debates you have for self amusement.

A person said to be ill and dying has strength to write even if he was literate? Find each and every person in the line of transmission not just what is summarised in English for you.

Can't someone say I will write and instruct his scribe to write only later having what was written confirmed by personally reading or having the scribe read to him? Did Muhammad pbuh himself read all of the Quran that was written or had the literate companions confirm it?

There is no consensus among Islamic scholars on which, if any, of these identifications of As-samari is correct.

What an astounding turnaround.
After boldly saying: Unfortunately for you, you didn't notice that God did NOT instruct Moses to carry out the command of killing the Israelites who had gone rogue just as God didn't ask Moses to break the commandments on the stone tablets.

When next will you contradict or turnaround your saying?

Samiri has been linked to the rebel Hebrew leader Zimri on the basis of their similar names and a shared theme of rebellion against Moses’ authority.
Others link him to the Mesopotamian city of Samarra and suggest that he came from a cow-worshiping people, giving his name as Musa bin Zafar.
Abraham Geiger proposed the idea that Samiri is a corruption of Samael, the name of an angel with similar functions to Satan in Jewish lore.
There is no consensus among Islamic scholars on which, if any, of these identifications is correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samiri

Who's translations do you use here. "That which is between his hands" is not in the Arabic.

TenQ:
You will notice that it is you Muslims who have disagreements among yourself for the conjectures you have manufactured for the As-Samari. If the As-Samari was a chief of Banu Israel, you should be able to tell us his tribe.

You asked a Question:
The following instruction of Moses to the Levites that led to the killing of 3,000 israelites is indeed quite worrisome. Is that how brutal the Christian God is?
Response:
Unfortunately for you, you didn't notice that God did NOT instruct Moses to carry out the command of killing the Israelites who had gone rogue just as God didn't ask Moses to break the commandments on the stone tablets.

Now!
At least you are coming closer to the true narrative except that the Quran calls him As-Samari (the Samaritan) and not Samari .
Your English translators of the Quran recognises this as to call the As-Samari the Samaritan

Lets look at this carefully and reasonably
1. Moses wrote the Taurat and he said that Aaron was the one who made the Golden Calf for Isrealihts to worship
2. Moses the author of the Taurat said that he questioned Aaron as per why he did such evil
Exodus 32:21
21 He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?”
3. Moses the Author of the Taurat said that Aaron Admited his guilt but said to him that he was compelled by the people to make the idol
Exodus 32:22-24
22 “Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. 23 They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’ 24 So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”
4. Moses the Author of the Taurat put the blame on Aaron for making the children of Israel run wild and out of control
Exodus 32:25
25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.

The Bible did NOT hide the sin of anyone unlike the Quran. If God even punished Moses for his sin against Him, how much more putting in record the sin of Aaron, David, Solomon etc.

Problem of Islam:
1. Mohammed claimed to beleive in the Tortah where the account of Aaron and the golden calf was written
Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4434
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:
A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.
2. Allah agree with the scripture of the Jews and the Christians
Quran 3:3-4
He has sent down upon you the Book with the truth, confirming what is BETWEEN ITS/HIS HANDS (musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi), and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel before this, as guidance to the people, and He sent down the Salvation/Criterion (al-Furqan). As for those who disbelieve in God's signs, for them awaits a terrible chastisement; God is All-mighty, the Avenger.
Quran 46:30
They said, "Our people, we have heard a Book that was sent down after Moses, confirming what is BETWEEN ITS HANDS (musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi), guiding to the truth and to a straight path."
3. Since Allah did not tell you who the As-Samari is nor Muhammed, every other thing you Muslims have said in explanation of who the identity of the As-Samari is are mere worthless conjectures. Neigher Mohammed nor Allah explained the identity of your so called As-Samari
4. The term As-Samari in Arabic mean just one thing: "The Samaritan: a citizen of the city of Samaria"


Unfortunately, this is just one of the many errors of Allah in the Quran.

Now Tenq the evangelist reveals his ignorance of the Bible.
Exodus 32
25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.
26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.
27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”
28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

Do you claim Moses lies in saying this is what God says. Ref Exodus 32:27

Do more research on As-Samiri and you will find that there is agreement that he was a rebel but no exact establishment of his identity.
This however does not take away the message of not reverring anything other than God be it molded or created.

Interesting delivery of justice where the one who ordered for the jewellery, smelted and molded the calf is not punished and 3000 are slain. This Christian God's judgement is strange.

TenQ:
You will notice that it is you Muslims who have disagreements among yourself for the conjectures you have manufactured for the As-Samari. If the As-Samari was a chief of Banu Israel, you should be able to tell us his tribe.

You asked a Question:
The following instruction of Moses to the Levites that led to the killing of 3,000 israelites is indeed quite worrisome. Is that how brutal the Christian God is?
Response:
Unfortunately for you, you didn't notice that God did NOT instruct Moses to carry out the command of killing the Israelites who had gone rogue just as God didn't ask Moses to break the commandments on the stone tablets.

Now!
At least you are coming closer to the true narrative except that the Quran calls him As-Samari (the Samaritan) and not Samari .
Your English translators of the Quran recognises this as to call the As-Samari the Samaritan

Lets look at this carefully and reasonably
1. Moses wrote the Taurat and he said that Aaron was the one who made the Golden Calf for Isrealihts to worship
2. Moses the author of the Taurat said that he questioned Aaron as per why he did such evil
Exodus 32:21
21 He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?”
3. Moses the Author of the Taurat said that Aaron Admited his guilt but said to him that he was compelled by the people to make the idol
Exodus 32:22-24
22 “Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. 23 They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’ 24 So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”
4. Moses the Author of the Taurat put the blame on Aaron for making the children of Israel run wild and out of control
Exodus 32:25
25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.

The Bible did NOT hide the sin of anyone unlike the Quran. If God even punished Moses for his sin against Him, how much more putting in record the sin of Aaron, David, Solomon etc.

Problem of Islam:
1. Mohammed claimed to beleive in the Tortah where the account of Aaron and the golden calf was written
Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4434
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:
A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.
2. Allah agree with the scripture of the Jews and the Christians
Quran 3:3-4
He has sent down upon you the Book with the truth, confirming what is BETWEEN ITS/HIS HANDS (musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi), and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel before this, as guidance to the people, and He sent down the Salvation/Criterion (al-Furqan). As for those who disbelieve in God's signs, for them awaits a terrible chastisement; God is All-mighty, the Avenger.
Quran 46:30
They said, "Our people, we have heard a Book that was sent down after Moses, confirming what is BETWEEN ITS HANDS (musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi), guiding to the truth and to a straight path."
3. Since Allah did not tell you who the As-Samari is nor Muhammed, every other thing you Muslims have said in explanation of who the identity of the As-Samari is are mere worthless conjectures. Neigher Mohammed nor Allah explained the identity of your so called As-Samari
4. The term As-Samari in Arabic mean just one thing: "The Samaritan: a citizen of the city of Samaria"


Unfortunately, this is just one of the many errors of Allah in the Quran.

Muhammad pbuh often appointed people to write for him.By appointing scribes to write for him, the prophet pbuh exemplifies his leadership skills and foresight and appointed individuals, known as the "katibs" or scribes who were responsible for recording and transcribing Muhammad's pbuh speeches, revelations, and important correspondence.

The Prophet pbuh certainly appointed writers for this job who wrote them on his behalf. (Tafseer al-Qurtubi Vol. 13, p. 352).

...The Messenger of Allah said: Write `Muhammad the Messenger of Allah..... surely illustrates he is telling someone to write.

Asking that writing material be brought does not prove he himself was going to write. If your instructor says bring out your pen and writing books does it mean the instructor wants to write? Could it not be a premise to a dictation?

Sāmirī (Arabic: السامري) was the person who made a calf in the absence of Prophet Moses and urged Banu Israel to worship it. The Qur'an has mentioned him in three verses, all of which are about making the calf. Samiri was from Banu Israel and there is a disagreement about his name and lineage.

Samiri was among the people who went out of Egypt together with Banu Israel. He pretended to be a follower of Prophet Moses and was considered among the chiefs of Banu Israel. From some reports, it can be inferred that he was a generous person.There is a disagreement about his name and lineage;however, some sources mentioned his name Musa b. Zafar, a descendant of Yashakir, son of Prophet Jacob.

Christians often criticize Aaron for his role in facilitating the creation of the calf and leading the people astray. Some argue that as the high priest and brother of Moses, Aaron should have known better and been more faithful to God. They say the israelites asked Aaron to make a god to lead them, and Aaron complied by collecting their gold earrings and molding the golden calf. Would you say Aaron didn't know better?

The following instruction of Moses to the Levites that led to the killing of 3,000 israelites is indeed quite worrisome. Is that how brutal the Christian God is?

TenQ:
So, which one of these says As-Samari is the same as Samir

As-Samari mean : the Samaritan or a citizen of Samaria

Can you show us from the Torah that the As-Samari mislead the children of Israel?



Note that:
Samir and As-Samari mean different things.

I have not come across those and know no one who has. Why talk on issues without certainty?

Q2:106-107
Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah you have neither any Walee (protector or guardian) nor any helper.”

[This statement is enough for me, why worry about what Allah himself abrogated or caused to be forgotten? Do I seek to contend that Allah is wrong or incompetent (I seek refuge in Allah from disbelief, the arrogant and all evil suggestions of the satan and mischievous) ].

4.2 Was “much” of the Qur’an abrogated?
We know the actual text involves the words “qur’an katheer” therefore one may tend to translate it as “much of the Qur’an” with a stress on “much.” In fact one critic asks, “What kind of revelation is this that MUCH (not some) of it consists of verses that have been abrogated?” This may appear to be a very strong point but actually speaks of the lack of proper understanding of the Arabic language.

The Arabic word katheer does not mean ‘much’ in the comparative sense. In the comparative sense it can even be used to mean less than what it is compared to as shown below. The same is the case with abrogation that we are discussing. The abrogated part of the Qur’an was definitely less than what remains.

A simple proof for this assertion is the narration in which Sa‘d bin Waqqas asked the Prophet about the share of his wealth that he might give away in charity while he feared to die. Sa‘d bin Abi Waqqas himself narrated his dialogue with the blessed Prophet on the subject:

قُلْتُ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، أُوصِي بِمَالِي كُلِّهِ؟ قَالَ: «لاَ» ، قُلْتُ: فَالشَّطْرُ، قَالَ: «لاَ» ، قُلْتُ: الثُّلُثُ، قَالَ: فَالثُّلُثُ، وَالثُّلُثُ كَثِيرٌ

“I said, ‘Should I give two-thirds of my property in charity?’ He said, ‘No.’ I asked, ‘Half?’ He said, ‘No.’ Then he added, ‘One-third, and even one-third is much (wal-thuluthu kathir).’”[15]

Certainly one-third is not “much” in the comparative sense of being more than the rest and no person of reason can ever claim that. Ibn ‘Umar only aimed to highlight the fact that verses of the Qur’an were abrogated and no one should say that they have memorized the whole of the Qur’an (including those verses) as it rests in the guarded tablets with Allah.
The Qur’an that we have between the two covers today, the Qur’an given to us by the Messenger of Allah, collected by Abu Bakr and ‘Uthman, is the Qur’an that Allah revealed and decreed to remain as the guiding message for humanity till the Day of Judgment, without any addition, subtraction or alteration.

TenQ:
I believe you now know what happened to
The verses of
1. Breastfeeding an adult man ten times later abrogated to five
2. Stoning for Adultery

They were conveniently deleted!

As-Suyuti, Jalal ad-Deen, al-Itiqan fee ‘Uloom al-Qur’an, (Cairo: al-Halabi, 1935) Vol.2, 25
‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar reportedly said: “Let none of you say, ‘I have got the whole of the Qur’an.’ How does he know what all of it is? MUCH OF THE QUR’AN IS GONE. Let him say instead, ‘I have got what has survived.’”

Al-Alusi, Shahab ud-Deen, Tafseer Ruh al-M’ani, (Beirut: Dar al-Kotob al-‘Ilmiyyah, 1415 A.H.) Vol.1, 26
“Verily they (i.e. people of Sunnah) have agreed on there being no loss in the Qur’an as is continuously reported like we today find between the two bindings. Yes during the time of (Abu Bakr) as-Sidiq the part which was not reported continuously and was (rather) abrogated was dropped (out of the official mushaf)…and to this relates that which is reported by Abu ‘Ubayd from Ibn ‘Umar, who said: ‘None of you should say that he has taken the whole of the Qur’an; how could he know what all of it was! A lot of the Qur’an has passed him by! Let him say instead: I have taken of the Qur’an that which became apparent

SIRTee15:
Abu bakr simply authorised the Koran to be written and compiled into a book after lots of the known reciters were being killed in the endless Muslim wars.
Other companions were allowed to write their own Koran or recite it the way the learnt it.

Uthman was the one who standardised the Koran, then gave order that Koran of other companions or reciters be burnt all over the caliphate. Including those who learnt directly from Muhammed himself.

Uthman gave u the Koran u have today. It definitely wasnt the Koran Muhammed dictated.

Uthman bin Affan ra appointed his trusted scribes, including Zayd ibn Thabit, to make copies of the originally compiled Quran, the one in possession of Hafsah bint Umar. This is what Abu Bakr compiled that was passed on to Umar bin Khattab then Hafsah who was a wife of the prophet. May Allah be pleased with them all.

The statement you derive from As-Suyuti from Ibn Umar is:
None of you should say that he has taken the whole of the Qur’an; how could he know what all of it was (before some of it being abrogated)! Substantial parts of the Qur’an has passed him by (due to abrogation)! Let him say instead: ‘I have taken of the Qur’an that which (remained and) became apparent (after abrogation).

Does this seem plausible to you?
Is the ʿUthmānic Codex the first compilation?
Was it compiled without reference to the compilation done by Abu Bakr?
Was the Uthmanic codex a result of the death of those who had memorized the Quran?

Do not confuse Abu Bakr's compilation with that of Uthman may Allah be pleased with both of them.

SIRTee15:
No one knew the whole of the Koran as at the time the uthmanic koranic codex was compiled
It was simply a guess work...trial and error.


It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

So I started looking for the Qur’an and collecting it from (what was written on) palme stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat at-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is: ‘Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Tauba).

Finding it refers not to an oral recitation but written down. There were indeed many people who had memorized numerous parts and all of the Quran.
Can I ask you you?
1. Why is this narration absent from the earliest history books and only found in Bukhari and a single narration from at-Tirmidhi among the Hadith compilations?

2. Why is this narrative also absent from the Hadith compilation of Sahih Muslim who was a student of Imam al-Bukhari?

SIRTee15:
Of course, deny it once your own book becomes evidence against u. Question it's authenticity or the chain of narration.
Asking me what year the book was written...
Why don't u tell me what year sahih Muslim and sahih Al Bukhari were written.
How many centuries (not even yrs) after the death of Muhammad were they compiled.

Interesting. What is the value of Muslim and Buhari in comparison to the Quran Mushaf?
These are collections and in honesty what you have written in English language isn't holistic transmission of what is said in Arabic.

Khuzaima ra was not the only one to have memorized the verses in question, other Companions also knew it and the forenamed was unique only in having it written with him as done in the presence of the Prophet.

SIRTee15:
This done talk finish now.
Mr Man, go and pull out that verse I quote from your modern day koran. The verse about son and adam and seven Valleys. If it's not there, what happend to it.
The early companions recited it so where don't u guys recite it anymore.

See the polishing he did for Zaid thabit. U claim his vast memory of the Koran is exemplary but had to travel the end of the earth to find the only person who knew the last verse of Surah at-Tauba

So I started looking for the Qur'an and collected it from (what was written on) palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from men who knew it by heart, till I found the last verse of Surat at-Tauba (repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol.6, p.478)

So where then is the authenticity of that verse, where is the chain of narration of that verse if only one person knew it when the Koran was compiled?

You present hearsay about some verses which doesn't amount to proof.

Zaid bin Thabbit did not forget those verses of At-Tauba but needed someone to testify that he had previously written this in front of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Is Silas not the rich man that introduced Paul to the Peter and James? Was he an apostle during the lifetime of Jesus?

SIRTee15:
Ok let's destroy each one after the other. No real evidence, just opinion and conjecture up and down.

It's actually 1st Peter that's more polished, cultured writing with good Greek vocabulary. 2nd Peter is quite crude, repetitive and rough.
U just need to read both to know which could have been literally written by a rugged fisherman.

The answer to the difference in textual variance is in 1 Peter 5.12

[b]With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.[/b]

Peter wrote 1 Peter with the help of a secretary- reason why it's polished and well cultured, but most likely wrote 2 peter himself in a hurry.
Some of Paul's letters were also written by his secretary. The gospel of Mark was peter's account of the gospel written down by John Mark.

It is interesting you even refer to As-Suyuti. How many centuries after Muhammad pbuh did he come into being? Do you say there were no documented Quran before this?

What did other members of those who copiled the Quran say?
It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar

Who reports in a chain from 4 persons?
If I tell you I heard from D that C says that B says A said something how will you perceive the accuracy of what is said?

Al-Ash'ari, known for his expertise in Quranic recitation, scrutinized each verse, ensuring its conformity to the original revelation received by the Prophet Muhammad. His meticulous efforts not only eliminated any discrepancies but also enhanced the authenticity of the Quran.

SIRTee15:
There is, in fact, a virtually unanimous opinion among the early historians that the Qur'an, as it stands, is incomplete.

Abdullah ibn Umar, in the earliest days of Islam, was quite emphatic about this:

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

FYI, Abdullah bin Umar was a companion of your prophet Muhammad and a son of the second Caliph Umar.

Another one....

This is from Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, one of the early authorities on the Qur'an text and a companion of Muhammad....

We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Sura) Bara’at (sura 9). I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust” ... (Sahih Muslim: bk. 5, no. 2286)

This is from a sahih hadith.

Now show me this missing verse from the modern day Koran since u say the text u have today is the same recited by Muhammed.

It is a fact that the compilation of the Mushaf was not left to one person but a committee therefore whatever a member may have forgotten will have been remembered by another.

Zaid ibn Thabit, a trusted companion of Prophet Muhammad, played a pivotal role in the compilation of the Quran. His meticulous memory and vast knowledge of Quranic verses were crucial in preserving the sacred text.
His commitment to authenticity was paramount, as any alteration would compromise the Quran's integrity. His association with Prophet Muhammad further solidified the belief that the compiled version was an accurate representation of the original revelation.

SIRTee15:
There is, in fact, a virtually unanimous opinion among the early historians that the Qur'an, as it stands, is incomplete.

Abdullah ibn Umar, in the earliest days of Islam, was quite emphatic about this:

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

FYI, Abdullah bin Umar was a companion of your prophet Muhammad and a son of the second Caliph Umar.

Another one....

This is from Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, one of the early authorities on the Qur'an text and a companion of Muhammad....

We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Sura) Bara’at (sura 9). I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust” ... (Sahih Muslim: bk. 5, no. 2286)

This is from a sahih hadith.

Now show me this missing verse from the modern day Koran since u say the text u have today is the same recited by Muhammed.

The writing style and vocabulary of 2 Peter are vastly different from that of Peter's acknowledged letters. The Greek used in this epistle is more polished and sophisticated, suggesting a later date and a different author. Additionally, the content of 2 Peter reflects a more developed Christian theology, which is unlikely to have been present in Peter's lifetime.

Another piece of evidence indicating that 2 Peter is not authored by Peter is the letter's reliance on earlier New Testament texts. The author of 2 Peter seems to be familiar with the letters of Paul, specifically referencing them as "Scripture" alongside the Old Testament. This suggests that the letter was written after Paul's works had already been compiled and recognized as authoritative. As Peter is not known to have had such knowledge or regard for Paul's writings during his lifetime, it strongly suggests a later date for the letter's composition.

Furthermore, the historical context in which 2 Peter was written supports the idea that it is pseudepigraphal. The letter reflects concerns about false teachers and internal disputes within the early Christian community, which were more prominent in the second century AD. The mention of Paul's letters as Scripture and the perceived need to remind the readers of Jesus' promise of his second coming also point to a later time period when the apostles were passing away, and the Christian faith was developing. These factors, along with the absence of any reference to Paul's death or the events leading up to it, suggest that 2 Peter was likely written well after Peter's death.

SIRTee15:
See the evidence produced by the article u presented for Pseudepigrapha.
Mainly Conjecture, assumptions, opinion. So much for scholastic work.

Anyway I equally highlighted evidence of the authenticity of peter's authorship in the same article.
Not sure if a rebuttal is needed.

You translated your writing already

TenQ:
Whats so difficult in this again!
I've translated the sentences for you


a. Translate: محمد هو القاضي المتكبر لشعبه!
Answer: Muhammad is the arrogant judge of his people!"





b. Translate : "الله هو القاضي المتكبر لشعبه!"
Answer: Allah is the arrogant judge of his people!"



Are these translations correct?

TenQ:
[quote author=TenQ post=125677011]Is the above the translation of
a. Translate: محمد هو القاضي المتكبر لشعبه!
b. Translate : "الله هو القاضي المتكبر لشعبه!"

The Truth is never afraid of scrutiny.

God can never be supported with LIES and DECEIT!

You did not translate this
مُسۡتَكۡبِرِينَ بِهِۦ سَٰمِرًا تَهۡجُرُونَ

https://readingacts.com/2018/03/18/2-peter-and-pseudepigraphy-2/

As J. N. D. Kelly said in 1969, “scarcely anyone nowadays doubts that 2 Peter is pseudonymous

Perharps you can bring the Quran of old for critical comparison with what is available perharps you can show substantial difference if at all in the meaning of the message.
Keep repeating the missionary apologetics that know not what they say.

SIRTee15:
U have to provide evidence of Pseudepigrapha otherwise u making junk claims.
Your atheist methodological approach of bible criticism will only expose the Koran and sink it.

because we all know the Koran u have today is not the one recited by Muhammed or his companions.

TenQ:
I never spoke about Ruhimmin or Ruhullah, all along, I've only spoken to you about The Holy Spirit Ruh-Alqudus.

In the Religion of both the Jews and Christians, the Holy Spirit is God the Creator of the Universe. You have reduced Him to an angel: another event fence that you don't know God.

The Qur'an never once even claimed that Ruh-Alqudus is Angel Gabriel. It is your Islamic scholars that claimed this.

This was the reason Mohammed couldn't answer the simple question:
1. What about the Spirit?
Shouldn't he have answered that the Spirit is Jubril?

2. Unfortunately, Muslims CANNOT even say what a spirit is: can you?

The Qur’an uses the word ruh about twenty-one times. It primarily means “spirit” which is a creation of Allah and its true nature is known to Him alone.
Allah says, [They ask you concerning the spirit. Say, it is from the command of my Lord. And from the knowledge you are given only a little.) (Al-Israa’ 17: 85)
Since the angels are spiritual beings, they are also called ruh. The angel Jibreel (Gabriel) – who is the Angel of revelation and used to bring revelation to Prophet Muhammad (pbut) is called in the Qur’an, Ar-Ruh (The Spirit, see Surat Maryam 19: 17),
Ruh Al-Qudus (The Spirit of Sacredness or the Sacred Spirit, see Surat Al-Baqarah 2: 87; 253, Surat Al-Ma’idah 5: 110; Surat An-Nahl 16: 102) and Ar-Ruh Al-Amin (the Trustworthy Spirit, see Surat Ash-Shu`araa’ 26: 193).

Is Jibril a.s alone the entirety of the spirit?

[quote author=SIRTee15 post=125674963][/quote]The Pseudepigrapha presents challenges to the genuity of the New Testament by raising doubts about the authenticity and authorship of the biblical texts. Their existence showcases the practice of attributing writings to well-known biblical figures to enhance credibility, challenges the notion of a unified and consistent New Testament canon, and highlights the limitations of relying solely on the Bible as a historical document.

P.S I don't have Dawah scripts.

Sorry Christians: Our Bible Contains Fake Letters From Paul (And Peter)


BOTTOM LINE: Your Bible is chock-full of pseudepigrapha.

More likely you.
Can you present a copy of this write up of 2 Peter 3.15-16 before Paul's association with the apostles?

[quote author=SIRTee15 post=125674963][/quote]

As-Samiri is not limited to one meaning.
The likely falsification of your belief is what you should be wary of.
Deviations from the pure doctrines of Jesus and all prophets before him started with Paul, who never met Jesus. Paul was the first to claim the Godhead and divine sonship of Jesus, as well as his resurrection. Yet, the disciples and the early Christian generations were unitarians. They resisted the efforts of Paul and his followers to change both the faith and law of Moses and Jesus, and, later, many of them were tortured and killed for holding to their faith.

Trinity was imposed for the first time, as an official creed of the Roman Empire, by Emperor Theodosius in the year 381 AC. The motive was mainly political, to save the Roman Empire by putting an end to the split between the Unitarian Christians and the Trinitarians, a split that persisted even after the Council of Nicea in 325 AC adopted the Pauline doctrines deifying Jesus as son of God.

Trinity, subsequently endorsed by the Council of Constantinople in 381 AC, attracted those who found in it a compromise between their original pagan beliefs and Christianity. Trinity was an invention of Athnasius of Alexandria in the 4th century after Jesus departure.

Explore2xmore:
As-Samiri is not limited to one meaning.
The likely falsification of your belief is what you should be wary of.


Deviations from the pure doctrines of Jesus and all prophets before him started with Paul, who never met Jesus. Paul was the first to claim the Godhead and divine sonship of Jesus, as well as his resurrection. Yet, the disciples and the early Christian generations were unitarians. They resisted the efforts of Paul and his followers to change both the faith and law of Moses and Jesus, and, later, many of them were tortured and killed for holding to their faith.

Trinity was imposed for the first time, as an official creed of the Roman Empire, by Emperor Theodosius in the year 381 AC. The motive was mainly political, to save the Roman Empire by putting an end to the split between the Unitarian Christians and the Trinitarians, a split that persisted even after the Council of Nicea in 325 AC adopted the Pauline doctrines deifying Jesus as son of God.

Trinity, subsequently endorsed by the Council of Constantinople in 381 AC, attracted those who found in it a compromise between their original pagan beliefs and Christianity. Trinity was an invention of Athnasius of Alexandria in the 4th century after Jesus departure.

With all my regular answers!
بَلِ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فِي عِزَّةٍ وَشِقَاقٍ
"But those who disbelieve are in pride and dissension."
(Q 38: Verse 2)

This is not what I asked you to translate.

مُسۡتَكۡبِرِينَ بِهِۦ سَٰمِرًا تَهۡجُرُونَ

TenQ:
You don't even answer my own questions but you expect me to answer yours!?

Okay:
Quran 38:2
"[They are] arrogant toward it [with] evil arrogance, [and] disdainfully."



Will you now translate my own questions!?

a. Translate: محمد هو القاضي المتكبر لشعبه!
b. Translate : "الله هو القاضي المتكبر لشعبه!"

There is just One word difference between the two statements!

As-Samiri is not limited to one meaning.
The likely falsification of your belief is what you should be wary of.


Deviations from the pure doctrines of Jesus and all prophets before him started with Paul, who never met Jesus. Paul was the first to claim the Godhead and divine sonship of Jesus, as well as his resurrection. Yet, the disciples and the early Christian generations were unitarians. They resisted the efforts of Paul and his followers to change both the faith and law of Moses and Jesus, and, later, many of them were tortured and killed for holding to their faith.

Trinity was imposed for the first time, as an official creed of the Roman Empire, by Emperor Theodosius in the year 381 AC. The motive was mainly political, to save the Roman Empire by putting an end to the split between the Unitarian Christians and the Trinitarians, a split that persisted even after the Council of Nicea in 325 AC adopted the Pauline doctrines deifying Jesus as son of God.

Trinity, subsequently endorsed by the Council of Constantinople in 381 AC, attracted those who found in it a compromise between their original pagan beliefs and Christianity. Trinity was an invention of Athnasius of Alexandria in the 4th century after Jesus departure.

SIRTee15:
Anything to absolve the false prophet from his blunders.
What do Arabs call Samaritans? What's the Arabic name for samaritans.