₦airaland Forum

Mr_Anony: Hmm ok, It seems to me that you are now deliberately trying to misunderstand my question but I'll give you the benefit of doubt one more time. . . . .

The issue we have before us is not the interpretation of the parable but the parable itself.

What is a parable? A parable is an analogous story used to explain a more complex phenomenon. It is usually a realistic story that the listener is conversant with and can easily relate to.

Jesus' parables are usually simple stories such as a sower sowing seed. This is a story that the Jews can easily relate to because they are familiar with it. The same applies for a son who leaves his father and squanders his money, a wedding feast e.t.c. All these are simple stories that the 1st century Jew can easily relate to because they are part of what he knows. Jesus then goes on to give a greater meaning to a very simple story by relating it to a much bigger picture i.e. God's kingdom.

Now this is the dilemma you face. You lot claim that the concept of conscious torment after death is alien to scripture and it doesn't even exist. The question now becomes: Why would Jesus use a story that does not exist i.e. a story that his audience cannot possibly even begin to relate to in order to explain a greater truth?

I still maintain that the Jews were very aware of the concept of conscious torment after death in the same way that they were very aware of the concept of a sower sowing seeds. It was a normal everyday understanding for them that evil people will suffer after death while the righteous will be comforted after death. . . . .and Jesus Christ obviously held the same.

In every argument, you can escape the truth if you pay a high enough price. For this one, the price would be to say that Christ didn't know what He was talking about. That's the steep price I'm afraid you will have to pay for you to properly deny torment of the sinner after physical death.
I truly hope that for your sakes, you are not comfortable paying this price.

The bolded shows you certainly do not know what a parable is.
You are asking about the existence of Jesus' story in his parable because of your literalism. Stories in parables are inherently probable or allegory or fictitious. Sometimes pictures of events and conditions painted in parables contain things that are literally impossible. The emphasis has never been on the literally aspect of those stories, but on their moral lessons.

If you insist parables are simply realistic stories - stories or conditions that really exist(ed), then answer the following questions:

1. Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that a real conversation could be carried on between Abraham and Lazarus?

2. If the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?

The Jews, including Jesus, did not believe that evil people will suffer after death while the righteous will be comforted after death in heaven as you claim, otherwise, it would make no sense for the same people to beleive in the resurrection and subsequent judgement?

The resurrection of the deads has not yet occurred, the judgment day has not yet come, so is God presenly test-running the furnace of hell with those in it in preparation for the actual judgement? Or, would you say it's simply His hobby to first roast people on fire extrajudicially, thereafter He brings them back for judgement? No injustice and wickedness would surpass that!

"Jesus saith unto her , Thy brother shall rise again . Martha saith unto him , I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day ". - John 11:23-24.....Martha did not Hold the beleive that her brother has risen to heaven, but she knew he was sleeping in death and was unconscious in the grave. Like Job at Job 14:14-15, Martha beleived the deads will wait for God's call in time of resurrection at the last day.

Where was Lazarus after his death, in the grave or in heaven for bliss? If he had risen to heaven, why did Jesus and others cry over the dead of the man that was in great ecstasy in heaven?

If Lazarus had risen to heaven, wouldn't it have been wicked of Jesus to bring him from the blissful heaven down to a grief-ridden earth? Besides, Lazarus never mentioned any afterlife experience, why? Because he was unconscious, "For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not any thing..." Eccl. 9:5...Yes, the deads are unconscious, they turn to dust from which they came to be.

The dogma of hellfire and literalism of Jesus parables have done more harm than Good. It has caused many to amputate their hands and many to relapse to agnostism and atheism.
It has made a great number of churchgoers to worship God, not out of their love for Him, but out of fear of torment in an unquenchable fire.......SO SAD!

See what Jesus said about those that breed atheism and cause others to amputate their hands:

"And he said unto his disciples, It is impossible but that occasions of stumbling should come; but woe unto him, through whom they come!
It were well for him if a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, rather than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble". - Luke 17:1-2 (ASV)

Mr_Anony: Wow, who has been feeding you this stuff?
I'll leave your explanation aside for now however, here's something I want you to seriously consider:

Think of all of Jesus' parables for a minute. You'll probably notice that what Jesus does is to use an example which the Jews know to be true (i.e. something they can relate to) to explain Heavenly theories.

For instance, the prodigal son, the marriage feast, the sower, the good samaritan, the ten virgins e.t.c. All of Jesus parables are simple easy realistic stories that have a greater meaning.

The question now is: If there really isn't any torment in hell after death, why then would Jesus use a LIE to represent a greater truth?

Nobody doubts the bolded. Jesus often used what his audience were familiar with in his sermons. The Pharisees were familiar with Gehenna when he related the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to them. The meaning of the parable had nothing to do with burning of things in fire of Gehenna or grave or hades or hell.

For instance, did Jesus want his listeners to believe that there are prodigal sons in heaven, that there will be marriage feasts in heaven, that there are cultivable lands for seed-sowing in heaven, that there are robbers and good samaritans in heaven, that there are ten virgins in heaven? Certainly not! These illustrations/parables, though drawn from familiar situations have different meanings from their literal interpretations.

Explaining a parable is much like solving a riddle? First of all you need to consider the settings, the context and seek to understand what the characters and actions represent.

Read below the Parable of the sower in Matthew 13:2-8 and its explanation in verses 18-23 to see what I am talking about.

[2] And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach.
[3] And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
[5] Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
[6] but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away.
[7] Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
[8] Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Explanation by Jesus:

[18] "Hear then the parable of the sower.
[19] When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.
[20] As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
[21] yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
[22] As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
[23] As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

What literal resemblance does the characters/actions in verses 2-8 have with what they represent or symbolize in verses 18 - 23? Nothing!!!

Would it not sound hilarious for me to ask:

If there really isn't any seed-sowing in heaven, why then would Jesus use a LIE to represent a greater truth? ...........Quite similar to your question above!

Mr_Anony: Yes Jesus was talking to the pharisees but my friend, your explanation of that parable is by far the most convoluted I have ever seen. All you have done is try desperately hard to escape the plain truth.

So the pharisees "died" in respect to falling out of God's favour? Did the disciples i.e. the righteous also fall out of God's favor? (don't forget that Lazarus is also dead in the parable)

The even funnier explanation is the torment bit where you make it to mean that torment is their deeds exposed. Of course pharisees were in torment while happily beheading, stoning and crucifying apostles all over the place.

Your convoluted explanation fails woefully here my friend.

Detailed explanation of the parable. I implore you to take a second look at it.

JESUS has been talking to his disciples about the proper use of material riches, explaining that we cannot be slaves to these and at the same time be slaves to God. The Pharisees are also listening, and they begin to deride Jesus because they are money lovers. So he says to them: "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men ; but God knoweth your hearts : for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God . "

Well, read on and see how the tables will soon turne on them.

The rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment.

They are rich in spiritual privileges and opportunities, and they conduct themselves as the rich man did. Their clothing of royal purple represents their favored position, and the white linen pictures their self-righteousness.

This proud rich-man class views the poor, common people with utter contempt, calling them am ha·'a'rets, or people of the earth. The beggar Lazarus thus represents these people to whom the religious leaders deny proper spiritual nourishment and privileges. Hence, like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people are looked down upon as spiritually diseased and fit only to associate with dogs. Yet, those of the Lazarus class hunger and thirst for spiritual nourishment and so are at the gate seeking to receive whatever meager morsels of spiritual food may drop from the rich man's table.

Jesus now goes on to describe changes in the condition of the rich man and Lazarus. What are these changes, and what do they represent? Jesus continues his story, describing a dramatic change in the men's circumstances.

"And it came to pass" Jesus says, "that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom : the rich man also died , and was buried ; And in hell he lift up his eyes , being in torments , and seeth Abraham afar off , and Lazarus in his bosom." - verses 22 & 23.

Since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic. What do their deaths symbolize, or represent?

Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that 'The law and the prophets were until John : since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it ' - (verse 16). Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.

Those of the humble, repentant Lazarus class die to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the bosom, or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, Yahweh, their heavenly father.

On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the Kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die to their former position of seeming favor. In fact, that is why they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. Listen as the rich man speaks:

"And he cried and said , Father Abraham , have mercy on me , and send Lazarus , that he may dip the tip of his finger in water , and cool my tongue ; for I am tormented in this flame". verse 24.
God's fiery judgment messages proclaimed by Jesus' disciples are what torment individuals of the rich-man class. They want the disciples to let up on declaring these messages, thus providing them some measure of relief from their torments.

"But Abraham said , Son , remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things , and likewise Lazarus evil things : but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented . And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us , that would come from thence." - verses 25 & 26.

How just and appropriate that such a dramatic reversal take place between the Lazarus class and the rich man class! The change in conditions is accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples are favored by God, not the Pharisees and other religious leaders.
The "great chasm" that separates the symbolic rich man from Jesus' disciples therefore represents God's unchangeable, righteous judgment.

The rich man next requests, 'I pray thee therefore , father , that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house : For I have five brethren' . Here the rich man thus confesses he has a closer relationship to another father, who is actually Satan the Devil. (see John 8:44) The rich man requests that Lazarus water down God's judgment messages so as not to put his "five brethren", his religious allies, into "this place of torment." - verses 27 & 28.

"Abraham saith unto him , 'They have Moses and the prophets ; let them hear them .'" - verse 29.

Yes, if the five brethren would escape torment, all they have to do is heed the writings of Moses and the Prophets that identify Jesus as the Messiah and then become his disciples. But the rich man objects: "Nay , father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead , they will repent.'
But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'" - verses 30 & 31. God will not provide special signs or miracles to convince such. People must read and apply the Scriptures if they would obtain his favor.


The context and the wording of the story show clearly that it is a parable and not an actual historical account. Poverty is not being extolled, nor are riches being condemned. Rather, conduct, final rewards, and a reversal in the spiritual status, or condition, of those represented by Lazarus and by the rich man are evidently indicated.

The time will soon come for the tables to be turned on people who are rich in worldly goods, political power, and religious control and influence, but neglect the actual doing of the will of God. They will be put down, and those who recognize their spiritual need will be lifted up. Jesus pointed to such a change in his introduction to the parable. Luke 16:16-17

If you feel you have a better explanation to the parable than this, please bring it up that we might learn from you.

Reyginus: The problem we christains have with bible verses is that we fail to break the constituents words down for proper analysis.
What is fate? Is it the unifying factor between man and beast. No. The verse in quote is only pointing out why we should be less concerned about earthly possession. Verse 21 is a rhetoric question centered upon correcting the wrong notion of man claiming to be too important.
Let me ask you this question:
Do animals have spirits?
Secondly, is life useless?

Does verse 21 show that each human and animal have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; the spirit as used in that verse is the active life-force in earthly creatures.

Solomon says Man and Animals go to the same place after their death. The question is: Where are the dead humans and where are the dead animals?
Remember, many believe that humans go to either hellfire for torment or heaven for bliss after their death.


Life is meaniful, my brother. Saly though, many have died without realizing this. Let make the hay while the sun is shinning. I understand Solomon's sermon as much as you do, but he has also passed on some things we should not ignor - where they dead Humans and Animals go to.

Reyginus: Lol. Before you start comparing man to other animals you must know that they lack freewill and were not made in the image and likeness of God.
So this comparison is illogical.

Truthislight's question is not illogical. It's very pertinent to the subject. Ok, get it directly from Solomon:


[19] For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
[20] All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
[21] Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth? - Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 RSV

Would you say the above is illogical since man was created in God's image? Since you stylishly dodged truthislight's question, can you please answer Solomon's? Verse 21.

Mr_Anony: Reading Revelations 20, there is one thing we know for sure that will happen to the false prophet, the antichrist and the devil; they will be tormented forever.
Next to join them in the lake of fire are death and hades. We are told that the the state of being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.
I hold that Revelations personifies death and hades (my understanding is that you don't think they are personified but rather you interpret it as the concept of death itself being annihilated)
After that, people whose names are not written in the book of life get thrown in lake and experience the second death too. If you hold that death does not exist anymore, how do these people now die? (this should be a pointer to you that the definition of the second death cannot be the same as what you nominally know as dying).
If the devil is to be tormented forever, I see no reason why sinners who the bible makes it clear that they will share the same inheritance with him will somehow become exempt from his suffering.
My point is simple. The second death is defined as eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Ask yourself: Why would Jesus hint at suffering after physical death at all if the notion is entirely false?


Please quote a particular verse and I'll try and find the Greek of it.

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it ; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them : and they were judged every man according to their works . 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire . This is the second death . 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" . Rev. 20:13-15 KJV

My questions: if hell is really a place of torment, why would those in it come back for judgement? On what basis were they sent to hell in the first place?

Its usage in verse 13 perfectly fit that of a grave - the place for the deads. Delivering up of people from it is nothing, but resurrection of the deads from it for judgement.

Mckybarf: i wonder who is missing the point here. According to scripture unless a man accepts Christ and turns from his old ways, he is doomed to be condemned with the devil with unquenchable fire in a place where there is gnashing of teeth and the likes. Physical death is for all men but spiritual death(separation from God) is as a result of adams sin. If a man refuses to accept Christ, he is spiritually dead but his punishment is not until God comes to judge the world and recompense every man according to his deeds.

Guy, I don't understand you. In other words, do you mean if Adam did not sin all men would still be subject to physical death but remain alive spiritually?

Mr_Anony: It is good that we are working towards the same thing. What we are divided on is what it means to "perish" as shown in scripture.


Unfortunately the other verses prove no such thing. They talk about a destruction yes and the wicked being cut-off yes but what is clear also and very vivid is the depiction of conscious suffering for the wicked. You can't just airbrush that part out.



As I said to frosbel, I don't necessarily hold that the story is literal. All I am pointing you to is the message of the story. Remember, a parable is an analogy. The aim is to use a simple story to illustrate a greater truth.

The real questions here are: What is the message of that story? Why would Jesus go through the trouble of describing the sinner experiencing pain if in reality, the sinner will merely cease to exist? Why would Jesus use a false condition to illustrate a greater truth? These are the questions we must consider

It's you that brought up this parable and have failed to explain it.

The rich man in the parable stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him.

Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God's Son.

The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they thus came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Yahweh, the heavenly father.

At the same time, the false religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ's followers exposed their evil works.
So you see, the parable does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.

Please read from verse 14 and take note of Jesus primary audience.



Please go to www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna befor reading the following.

In the Hebrew Scriptures Gehenna is "the valley Hinnom." Remember, Hinnom was the name of the valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the Israelites sacrificed their children in the fire. In time, good King Josiah had this valley made unfit to be used for such a horrible practice.

"And he defiled Topheth , which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom , that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech" - 2 Kings 23:10 KJV

During the time Jesus was on earth Gehenna was Jerusalem's garbage dump. Fires were kept burning there by the adding of brimstone (sulfur) to burn up the garbage. Smith's Dictionary of the Bible, Volume 1, explains: "It became the common lay-stall [garbage dump] of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast." No live creatures, however, were cast there.

Knowing about their city's garbage dump, Jerusalem's inhabitants understood what Jesus meant when he told the wicked religious leaders: "Ye serpents , ye generation of vipers , how can ye escape the damnation of hell (Gehenna)?" - Matthew 23:33 KJV

Jesus plainly did not mean that those religious leaders would be tormented. Why, when the Israelites were burning their children alive in that valley, God said that to do such a horrible thing had never come up into his heart!

"And they have built the high places of Tophet , which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom , to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire ; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart ". - Jeremiah 7:31 KJV

So it was clear that Jesus was using Gehenna as a fitting symbol of complete and everlasting destruction. KJV uses the word "Hell"

Jesus meant that those wicked religious leaders were not worthy of a resurrection. Those listening to Jesus could understand that those going to Gehenna, like so much garbage, would be destroyed forever.

Can you explain Jude 7?

Ihedinobi: I really cannot add much to Lord Reed's, Image123's, Reyginius's and Mr Anony's intro, to mention the few believers I remember here represented. They fully capture my stand on the matter at hand. However, I will point out the following.


Man as Man, I declare, was built to last. Why? Because he was created for dominion. He was created to be God's means of government over His whole creation. What we see in the beginning of Genesis is Man in potential, what follows is Man failing to reach full potential and essentially losing character. What we find finally in Revelation is Man, not only restored but in full actualization of his potentials. I have said this to point out that even though God knew that the entity called Man would be corrupted and therefore prepared beforehand to correct the anomaly when it happened, He still created Man to be Man.

6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
7 So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." - Gen. 6:6,7 RSV

Ihedinobi, why would God feel sorry and be grieved over what He knew will happen? As "a good bible scholar", how would you explain that to the critics of God and Bible?

Falsehood is like a stone thrown into a pond, it generates a ripple, the ripple generates another - they keep multiplying and expanding - - - - ->

Ihedinobi: I really cannot add much to Lord Reed's, Image123's, Reyginius's and Mr Anony's intro, to mention the few believers I remember here represented. They fully capture my stand on the matter at hand. However, I will point out the following.

Man is, in a sense, eternal. The sense in which I mean is that he was a thought from eternity, an actuality in time and a perpetuation in eternity. He will continue to exist because he was made to. Sin only redirects his existence, it does not "delete" it. This is why the Salvation offered in Jesus Christ is such a big deal in the first instance. Man will go on either in actualizing all that he was created for or in failing utterly of it all, either way, he will continue to exist.

Now tell us, your position regarding death resulting from sin better fits which of the following two statements?

1. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil , thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". - Gen. 2:17 KJV

God later shaded more light on Gen. 2:17 regarding death as follows:

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread , till thou return unto the ground ; for out of it wast thou taken : for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return". - Gen. 3:19 KJV


2. "And the serpent said unto the woman , Ye shall not surely die" - Gen. 3:4 KJV

Mr_Anony: Interestingly Fresky, you omitted a large part of Christ talking about a suffering after judgment. What you are proposing sounds like this: Man sins and dies, God resurrects him and says something along the lines of "you have been a very bad boy haven't you? Now go back to sleep".

Annihilation is not preached in the scripture. It is only something you have assumed. It is special pleading to say that though the bible says that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, that man thrown into the same lake of fire will somehow be exempt from the same punishment but will simply go into another long eternal sleep. This is false.

Just to be sure, so that the above isn't just a conclusion I am jumping to. Do you agree that the wicked will be resurrected for judgment as it says in Rev 20? or do you hold that they will never even rise at all?


The part you cited in the book of Psalms where the wicked will be cut off was referring to a physical death. How do I know? I read the whole Psalm and nothing about that verse seems to indicate an afterlife cutting off.


One more thing Fresky. please stick to KJV or RSV as we have agreed, NKJV is not one of the translations we agreed upon (yeah I know it is very similar to KJV and it is also my favoured translation but then an agreement is an agreement. Let's respect that).

"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;" - Rev. 20:14 RSV.

Do you agree with Rev. 20:14 that the lake of fire = the second death? If yes, what is your definition of death? Is death not a form of punishment?

Mr_Anony: This is the reason why I asked everyone to give their introduction so that it will be easy to go back and see exactly what each person's position is instead of merely generalizing based on what you think the person is saying.

I have not claimed that the parable should be taken literally but I have pointed out that clearly the conscious suffering of a sinner after death is a core point of Jesus' parables.

If you had bothered to read my argument through and through, you would have noticed that I do not necessarily hold that hell is a literal fire. What I do hold is that there is definitely eternal suffering for the sinner after death and Jesus pointed at this in his parables.

Who are you trying to kid?

If truly you believe that Jesus' parable is figurative why then did you introduce it as follows:

"One may argue that the story is figurative but two things are quite certain from this parable"......by Mr Anony.

It's another way of saying: though others may claim Jesus' parable is figurative, but as for me, it's 100% literal.


Again, if you truly believe it is figurative why then do you frequently quote same to substantiate your teaching on a literally fiery Hell?

How would it sound if I claim that knife is not harmful but each time I talk about dangerous weapons I mention it as number one example? Is that not contradictory?

I am sure you are trying to avoid the questions that are associated with the literally meaning of the parable.

obadiah777: http://www.informationnigeria.org/2012/09/bizarre-27-year-old-man-cuts-off-his-own-hands-to-prevent-him-from-stealing.html

Thank you Obadiah for showing us how dangerous and harmful it can be if Jesus' words at Matt. 5:29-30 are taken literally.

Mr Anony, please who is responsible for the young man's amputation?

ijawkid: That man na mumu man wey cut him hand......lol....

If Jesus' words were meant to be applied literally then we will all be amputees ......

Buzugee I'm sure you would have cut off your whole mouth to avoid shekpe and some alcohol....lol....

My bros, no be small thing...o

You see what harm this falsehood can cause.

I am sure Mr Anony and his fellow Hellers have seen this.

@Mr Anony

What is a parable? If you claim what Jesus said at Luke 16:19-31 and other related scriptures should be taken literally, then answer the following:

1. Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that a real conversation could be carried on between Abraham and Lazarus?

2. If the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?

3. Have you literally plucked out or cut off any part of your body that can possibly prevent you from entering into the kingdom of God? Who has ever done it, can you tell us?..........Matt. 5:29-30

jacobscros: This chapter chronicles the end of days on earth.Can't post it here cos of a poor phone im using.My question is the 144000 from the 12 tribes of israel who are sealed with God's mark, they pass thru the tribulation period but are untouched. Will the rest of us be in heaven by then? Verses 9 to 15 talk about the rest of the world who are uncountable in number and are now in heaven serving God in his temple where angels are but passed through great tribulation .

Who are these 12 tribes of Isreal? The Isreal of old or the present? Which?

Joagbaje: Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:9-10
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

The 144,000 is not the number of people to be saved throughout the earth , They are only to be sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel during the tribulation. The church would have been raptured to heaven before this time.

And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
-Revelation 7:14 (NKJV)

The great multitude envisioned by apostle John are those who will survive(come out of) the great tribulation. They will not be "raptured" before the great tribulation, but will experience and survive it. You cannot come out of something you have not experienced. The truth is many will perish and many will come out of (survive) it. Are you afraid?

1. Death is the opposite of life. It is a state of non-existent or inactivity. When I was not created, I did not exist. When I die I will exist no more.

God said to man: "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” -Genesis 2:17 (NKJV) "...For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”-Genesis 3:19 (NKJV)

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. -Genesis 3:4 (NKJV)

In view of the above, it is either God or Satan is a liar. Well, Eve was quick to realize Satan is a liar.
"...The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” -Genesis 3:13 (NKJV)

This seed of untruth about man continuous existence after sin and death was sown far back in the garden of Eden, it is almost as old as man. Since Satan is crafty and unrelenting he has re-packaged and re-presented same. Today we have this untruth in forms such as immortality of the soul of man, reincarnation of man, eternal torment of man in a fiery hell etc.

Considering the foregoing, on whose side are you? God's or Satan's?

2. Hell simply means grave. The Hebrew word for it is Sheol, the Greek word for it is Hades. It is not a literal place for torment. It is a place of inactivity. For example, Jesus was raised from the grave or Sheol or Hades or Hell. Compare the following quotations from the King James Versions:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell ; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Psalms 16:10 (KJV)

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell , neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Acts 2:27 (KJV)

For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Psalms 16:10 (NKJV)

"For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Acts 2:27 (NKJV)

Conclussion: Hell = Sheol = Hades = Grave.

3. Fire is a symbol of annihilation. The lake of fire and sulphur is not a literal place of torment, but a symbol of everlasting death - the second death. Destruction by God is everlasting - no hope of recovery or resurrection. It's like incinerating an object.

Whenever the expression "everlasting/eternal torment, punishment, suffering etc is used, it's often symbolic, not literal. Consider the following:

"as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". -Jude 1:7 (NKJV)

Geographically and literally speaking, today the biblical cities of Sodom and Comorrah are believed to have been in the vicinity of southeastern Isreal, near the south end of the dead sea. They are industral sites.

If we take Jude's description of the destruction of the aforementioned cities literally, then either Jude lied or the incident never happened. The truth is, their death was final. Destruction of the wicked by God is often described symbolically as by fire. It's difference from destruction by others.

4. Will there be any retribution for unrepentant sinners? Yes!
Whatever means God will use, the wicked will be killed. I mean death, in the true sense of the word.
It will be total annihilation. They will exist no more.

"For evildoers shall be cut off;But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more. -Psalms 37:9-10 (NKJV)

5. Is there any hope for the dead? Yes, the hope of resurrection! God made man from dust and from dust faithful ones who died will be resurrected at His appointed time.

Hmmmm, I missed a lot. Please tick me too for the upcoming discussion and note my preference.

WEB - World English Bible

Or

YLT - young's Literal Translation

God2man: Our Lord Jesus Christ warned us repeatedly to escape the danger of hell because it is a terrible place to go.

Let's start with Luke 16:23-24 " And in hell he lifts up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, send Lazarus, that he may dip the tips of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for i am tormented in this flame"

Another one, Matthew 8:12 " But the children of the darkness: shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

Again, Mark 9:43-48 " And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Now, let's us look at this statement, WHERE THEIR WORM DIETH NOT AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. This particular verse was repeated thrice by Our Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 9: 44,46,48. " Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched"

You see, there is power in repeated words, it shows emphasis, if Jesus can repeat the above statement three times, then it means it is a serious matter, the truth is, anybody that does not believe, or believe and pretend not to believe that hell is real is deceiving himself. HELL IS HOT. HELL IS HOT. HELL IS HOT. I repeat HELL IS HOT. Do not even think of going there.

The occultic men, Boko haram guys, murderes, 419ers, and those who have accepted christ will not go to the same place. There must be seperation. Do not be deceived that everything will end here on earth. NO, NO, NO, i beg to disagree.

King Solomon in the Bible had everything, money, wealth, children, honour, everything good you can think of, he wrote in the Book of Ecclesiastes 1:2-3 " Vanity of Vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?"
At the last Chapter, the very last statement, Chapter 12:13-14" Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandment: for this is THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

Do not be deceived, THERE IS GOING TO BE JUDGEMENT AFTER DEATH. We are under the best camera, The cloud of witness above you. Everything is going on record, day by day, second by second, hour by hour, minute by minute.

Hear this: A sister accepted Christ and later backslided, because leaders of the church she was attending engaged in a fight. So, she thought that if leaders in the church can be fighting, then of what use is her new life in Christ. She went back to sin and started to commit fornication. During an affair with her boyfriend, she got pregnant. The pregnancy led her to the hospital for an abortion. She died after the abortion. Immediately she died, she saw her spirit coming out of her physical body, moving out of the hospital. A force carried her to a very wide road that was full of people rushing to the Hot place, Hell. While on that road, a voice commanded her to stop. There was a screen before her showing all the things she had done while on earth, including the time she was commiting fornication. God was merciful to her; she was sent back to earth.

I agree with the fact that various people have given different views about what happens after death, but thank God, none of them mentioned that there is no hell, at least, all of them told us there is hell.

The description of hell by Jesus is to make us to understand the consequences of eternal damnation in hell. Jesus said: what shall it profit a man, if he gains the whole worl and forfeit his soul. A wasted life indeed.

I am not here to scare anybody, but we must know that it is only an unreasonable person that will doubt a good evidence. If Jesus can repeat a particular statement three times, then there must be an element of truth in it.

Tommorow does not belong to you, tommorow may not come, today is the day of salvation.

Accept the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, say, "Lord Jesus, i confess that i am a sinner in need of you, i repent of my sins and ask you to forgive me. Come into my life. Take control of my life as from today. Wash me with your precious blood." Now, then pray to God to lead you to the right church to continue to fellowship with the children of the light.

God bless you for taking your time to read this message.
God2man.

Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that a real conversation could be carried on between Abraham and Lazarus?

If the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger? .....Luke 16:23-24

Literally speaking, is hell (with fire burning continually) supposed to be a dark place? .....Matthew 8:12

Has anybody desirous of entering into the kingdom of God ever literally cut off his foot or plucked out his eye? Can the worns that we know resist heat?....Mark 9:44,46,48

How would you defend God if one accuses Him of having a double standard? Remember, the sister died as unrepentant sinner, shouldn't she had been an obvious candidate for hell? If God fails to return all unrepentant wrongdoers who have died in their sins as He retuned the sister, would He not be lebelled as partial and unjust?

Finally, as it is almost always the case with this kind of story, did the sister not establish a church of her own?

Rossikk: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DEATH


Whispers of the Soul

Josiane Antonette's near-death experience

https://www.near-death.com/images/people/experiencers/josiane_antonette.jpg

Born in France and trained as a nurse, Josiane Antonette had a near-death experience in 1966 when she became aware of her ability to "communicate with the other side." For over 30 years, she has worked with the dying and the living, in hospitals as a chaplain, universities as a teacher, as a spiritual counselor, healer and ceremonial leader. Her understanding of living, dying and the spiritual realms has touched many people.

The following are short excepts from her most excellent book, Whispers Of The Soul. It is a book I highly recommend.



The Realm of Restless Spirits

My near-death experience shattered my world. It shook me into remembering spirit and other dimensions of life, which I had known as a child but had forgotten so that I could fit into society. I feel the jerking of the ambulance as it rushes me through the dark streets of Marseille to the hospital. Twenty-four hours have passed since my underground abortion with a feuseuse d'anges, an "angel maker." Abortion is illegal in France now, and many women die because of the unsanitary conditions of the procedure. I am only twenty-four years old, a young nurse. Am I dying? Am I outside myself observing? I see my body and its pain. I look at my feet; they are pale and lifeless. My legs cannot move. My face is white and drawn.

I watch as the walls of the ambulance dissolve. I see the lights of the city speed toward me. I can see the stars! What am I doing up so high? Why does everything look so small all of a sudden?

Memories pass before my eyes as in a movie.

(She momentarily returns to her body)

I see family members at the foot of my bed through a haze. Suddenly they disappear. From where they stood I see faces rushing toward me with incredible speed. They race toward my face, expanding then dissolving. Face after face washes over me! I am terrified. I'm drifting. I'm unable to keep my eyes open.

Who are these people? Some I recognize as people I've known who have died. Others I do not recognize.

"Stay away! Where is my family?"

Now the whole room is filled with spirits! They hover near me and look into my eyes. I try to push them away. I fight them. The experience seems to go on forever. These are spirits who are restless. Their faces are twisted with pain. They seem lost. It's frightening to see them walking back and forth around my bed. And now – spirits with glowing faces come close to me. They reflect a gentle and powerful light, reminding me of the pictures of beautiful angels that I love so much. I feel nurtured and loved by them, and enveloped by their luminescence. These beings are made of light, and even though their brilliance is intense, I am not blinded. Tremendous compassionate love surrounds me!

Now – I am filled with the essence of love and compassion. This magnetic power is filling every atom of me. I have never before experienced such depth and power of love. I am the power of love! Merging into an intimate dance wherein all boundaries have disappeared, I feel myself one with these beings of compassion.

No words or sounds are being exchanged, and yet communication is happening.

A strong presence assures me, "Yes, you are dying to the world of men. But to us you are being born. Do not be afraid. You have always been with us; we have always been with you. We know you. You just fell asleep during your time on Earth and forgot who you are. Now you are remembering."

Revelation fills my awareness – of course, yes! I am of the Beings of Light and they are of me! What is this new surge of energy? It begins as a very gentle vibration rising through the length of my body, from my feet to the top of my head, but now my whole self is vibrating. I hear buzzing. It is growing louder, and now the vibration and the buzzing are becoming one.

I feel such a wonderful release! I'm free! I can't resist this new and wonderful tide of energy sweeping my body upward. Now I'm on the hospital room ceiling gazing down! Everything appears so small: I see my bed; my body looks small and colorless; the people around the bed are tiny. Overwhelming grief and sorrow fill the room, and yet I feel completely disconnected from the scene below me. I hover nearer and look at the strange form lying on the bed. I feel compassion beyond words. I understand everything, but I have no feeling of attachment to anyone. I look at each person standing at the bedside and feel tremendous love.

I want to say to them, "I'm all right. You don't have to worry. I'm all right. Look at me! I'm fine!"

I am love; I am understanding; I am compassion!

My presence fills the room. And now I feel my presence in every room in the hospital. Even the tiniest space in the hospital is filled with this presence that is me. I sense myself beyond the hospital, above the city, even encompassing Earth. I am melting into the universe. I am everywhere at once. I see pulsing light everywhere. Such a loving presence envelops me!

I hear a voice say, "Life is a precious gift: to love, to care, to share."


Seeing a World of Darkness

Questions race through my awareness: Why is there so much pain in the world? Why are humans made of different colors? Why with different creeds? Why with different languages?

A vision appears. I see our world from the vantage point of a star, or another planet. Earth appears as a sphere cut in half. The surface of the planet is flat and colorless. The ground is bare. No living plant grows from the Earth. Tree branches are naked. There are no fruits, no flowers, no leaves. The barren hills are obscured behind a gray veil. It is a passionless place where no one rejoices at the sunrise, and no one knows when night comes. Naked phantom-like people stand on what seems to be a stage. All the actors are puppets animated by an invisible force. They move in unison and stop all at once.

On one side of half of the sphere, a sun attempts to shine upon the stage, but no one pays attention or makes a sound. Even the birds in the dead trees are silent and motionless. The other side of the half sphere is in darkness. I watch as the darkness grows with frightening speed and covers the whole planet. No one pays attention. Now the darkness covers the sunlight, and now it covers all the bright planets in the universe.

"This is the world with the absence of light, love, and free will," the voice states. "It is the people's choices that created the world you have just seen."

With these words, the nightmarish world begins to dissolve and is replaced by the other half of the planet – a place of vibrant, breathtaking beauty. I perceive how the Earth, the sun, the moon, the darkness, the light, the planets, and all forms of life – plants, rocks, animals, people – are interconnected; they come from the same source of light. Everything is united by a transparent net, or web, and each thread shines with great radiance. Everything pulses with the same luminosity – a magnificent light of unparalleled brilliance.

"From the light we have come, and to the light we all shall return," continues the voice.

I realize now I have been standing in the middle of the two worlds. And with this understanding, an image of the path I have been walking appears. It is narrow and rocky; I have the sensation of losing my balance. I grow afraid of falling into the darkened planet. Free will! With the remembering, I gaze at my invisible feet. The narrow path changes into a wide road. The darkness is replaced by light.

"Never, never forget." I hear the voice say.

Merging with the light, I am so overcome with gratitude and overwhelmed by the love that fills me that I cry.

Suddenly, time and space are different again, and I am momentarily aware of my body.

I am aware that the window to the left of my bed is filled with vibrant, powerful light. It seems to be calling me and pulling me toward it like a magnet. I hear the buzzing again, and ... Whoosh! I'm zooming through the window! I merge with the light! I am the light, and the light is me.

"From the light we have come, and to the light we shall all return," repeats the voice.

What a joy to bathe in this incredible all-knowing, all-loving...

I can travel through walls, ceilings, and space at amazing speed! I visit my son, Philippe, who is only four.

A tremendous power moves me. I am boundless, formless, no longer controlled by my emotions. I am everything. Everything is me!

I'm back in the hospital room. A mist coming from the door facing my bed attracts my attention. In the middle of the vapor is a being with the most heavenly smile. Jean Pierre! It is my cousin, Jean Pierre! I am overwhelmed with joy. As I gaze at Jean Pierre, the hospital room disappears. We are suspended in midair. There are no windows or doors, no ceiling or ground. A brilliant radiance fills all space. He slowly approaches my bed and bends to kiss me. I feel the moisture of his lips on my face, the weight of his body against mine, the gentle touch of his hands on me.

Jean Pierre is the brother I never had. After a long and painful battle with lung cancer, he died two years ago when he was only twenty-two. I am still grieving his passing. How wonderful to see him again! And what is this? He is wearing his butterscotch jacket. This jacket has been the subject of many discussions. He loves it; I hate it.

"How did you know I was here?"

My question is a thought not yet put into words as Jean Pierre answers, "We know everything about you, and we welcome you."

Such a warm feeling of peace! I am complete – whole! I am free of pain and fear. There is no past or future – everything is! There is no need to speak to be understood or to communicate. I feel serenity beyond anything I have ever known. And joy of joys: I can fly! I swirl easily and with great speed around my cousin in a playful way, expressing the ultimate joy that is me. Everything is the way it should be. Never have I felt so clear, so complete, so loved. I gaze at myself: I am whole and healed! I can interact and play with Jean Pierre with my natural vigor. Familiar Beings of Light are here, too. I immerse myself in their loving presence. It's as if they are protecting me and carrying me. We are all interconnected. I relax into the timeless joy. What a glorious feeling! I want to be here forever. Jean Pierre is gazing at me now as the other beings begin to depart. His dark eyes are filled with great tenderness and purity. He turns to leave with the others, and I plead with him to take me with him. His eyes fill with sadness.

"Not now," he responds. "There is much, much work for you. You have to go back and tell them. Life is a precious gift. Each moment is filled with great opportunities. Don't waste your time on Earth. Spread love and understanding. We will always be with you – guiding you, protecting you, awaiting the time when we will be reunited – when your work on Earth is over."

I watch as Jean Pierre dissolves into the same brilliant light with which he had entered. The light is fading away, too.

The room is empty now. My grief is intense. I start to cry out of desperation and loneliness.

Suddenly, I'm back in the hospital in bed. I am fully aware of my surroundings and my physical state of being. Tubes are implanted in my body. The pain is overwhelming. My sadness is intense. I am so weak I cannot speak. I have lost my voice, and the doctors are alarmed by the tears which are using up the strength I need to recuperate. Crying is all I want to do! My body feels like a suit that is too tight; the room is confining; the smell of sickness surprises my senses; the human condition saddens me.

"Josianne, you're back!" I recognize my sister's voice. I see her careful gaze. "You've been in a coma for three days. We didn't know if you were coming back."


"From the light we have come and to the light we shall return." - Josiane Antonette


http://www.near-death.com/antonette.html.



For more NDE accounts visit www.near-death.com

Those who have been near death have, in other words, never actually been dead. They experienced something while they were still alive. A person is still alive even seconds before his death. They were near death but not yet dead. what Josiane Antonette experienced was not difference from what some of us experience whenever we have serious malaria.

The published near-death experiences are almost always depicted as being positive, although it is known that negative experiences also occur. Many publishers often establish their church afterwards. The reason for doing so is always what has been highligted above in your quoted post.

As for me, when you die, you return to dust, for from it you came to be. All the chemical elements that make up man is found in the dust 100%.

The amount of information in your brain is more than what you can relate in your present lifespan. This explains why you can dream for just a few seconds, but relate same in minutes or perhaps hours.

Whenever the body is at rest momentarily due to sleep, sickness, drugs intake and the likes, it presents an opportunity for the brain to give an infinitesimal release of astronomical amount of what it has in-stored. They are life but not afterlife experiences.

benodic: @ Freksy:






any doubts i may have had concerning my past life experiences were cleared when i became a member of Eckankar. you see, the teachings of Eckankar are practical and gives you a 360 degrees view of life from the soul point of view. what material scientists are doing is just like, in trying to identify a person you start fiddling with the cloth the person is wearing instead of working with the real person which is Soul.

unfortunately for the scientist, soul can not be measured with physical instruments because its vibrations is beyond the physical spectrum. when you look at life from the view point of soul everything falls into place and everything makes sense. spiritual experiences are subjective experiences and can never be measured in a laboratory. it is up to the individual to prove them for himself or herself and in the process of course nobody will be clapping for you or hailing you for the reality is that people do not want to know the truth. in fact. they are scared of the truth.

it takes only the bold and courageous to undertake the journey, cross the boundaries of life and death and see things on the other side and come back to tell the story. like i said earlier, memories of all our past lives are stored in one of the inner bodies which soul wears which is called the causal body. this inner body has connections with the human brain. so on stimulations of the physical brain such memories both of past and present lives can flash across the screen of the mind. there is no big deal about that.

also the use of some hypnotic hard drugs can forcefully open the window of soul which is known as the third eye or spiritual eye and the drug abuser will have a short peep into the inner worlds which is what usually brings the euphoria. but this method of looking into the inner worlds damages the bodies that soul is wearing and can open that person up to invasion by evil spirits. this is what is meant by entering heaven through the back door. that is why drug abuse is very dangerous. infective conditions like malaria and meningitis etc also has the same effect of forcefully opening the third eye and the person becomes starts hallucinating.

that is reason why i am not bothered at all about what the material scientists are doing. Eckankar turns you into a spiritual scientist and with the help of the spiritual exercises you can travel into the inner worlds and see things for yourself as soul. you verify things for yourself and your experiences becomes your authority.
that is my take on the issue.

Fallacy! It's a brain work, nothing really leaves the body. Moreover, those who believe in reincarnation say that the very meaning of being reborn is to get a new chance to better our situation.

If this is so, why in this day and age do wickedness dominates the world scene more than ever? If only good people are reborn as humans, where did all the wicked people come from? Should not there be fewer and fewer wicked people? Is the purpose of reincarnation not defeated?

The truth is: Nobody, good or wicked, is ever reincarnated to begin another life as a human or anything else for that matter.

Atheist:-D:
I belive that when people die, they are dead. There is no afterlife, no spirits, no reincsrnation, heaven, hell or other afterlife residence. We should make the most of our lives because when we aredead, we are dead.

Thanks for the advice! Its sounds like the one below:

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." -Ecclesiastes 9:10 (NKJV)

Atheist:-D:
Some slowly, some fast (cremation). Others have some of them live on as donors in other peoples bodies but yes we all eventually do become dust.

Guy, I believe you! When I looked up Genesis 3:19 referred to by truthislight i found the same thing. "In the sweat of your face you shall eat breadTill you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken;For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” -Genesis 3:19 (NKJV)

benodic: @ Freksy




i had the good fortune of remembering my immediate past life when i was a child. i kept my recollections to myself because i was being taught in the church that we live only once and that there is no reincarnation. as i grew older i verified the past life recall i was having and that became my proof. later i encountered the teachings of Eckankar which gave meaning to many of the experiences i was having. we do not try to convince any one to accept the concept of reincarnation as you will come face to face with it in due course. it is your choice to find out now or wait until you translate then you will know whether it is a fact not.

A neurosurgery pioneer, Wilder Penfield, who operated on epileptics who were under local anesthesia, made an interesting discovery. He found that by stimulating different parts of the brain with an electrode, he could cause the patient to have the feeling of being outside his own body, traveling through a tunnel, and meeting dead relatives.

He further discovered that children who have had near-death experiences meet, not their dead relatives, but schoolmates or teachers—those who are still alive. This indicates that such experiences have a certain cultural connection. What is experienced is connected with the present life, not with something beyond death.

Medical experts have reported that the aforementioned can also occur in connection with "fatigue, fever, epileptic attacks and drug abuse."

Also, are you aware that unborn babies of about 5/6 months' gestation can respond to external sound and light? You started inputting things into your brain as early as that.

Sir, how sure are you that it's not one of the above experiences that gives you a mental impression of a pre-existent life?

Emmyk: It was raised in Philosophy class with so many arguements. Is Man's destiny made by himself (his Labour) or by God? Want a broad knowledge in the afore question please.

What was your position?

Atheist:-D:
I belive that when people die, they are dead. There is no afterlife, no spirits, no reincsrnation, heaven, hell or other afterlife residence. We should make the most of our lives because when we aredead, we are dead.

Do you mean we'll all turn to dust at death?

benodic: when someones dies the real self soul simply drops the physical body just like where someone is changing cloth and moves to the next plane where he faces the Judge of the dead. after judgement depending on how the person spent his/her life while on earth he/she may be required to reincarnate in order to pay back debts incurred in the previous life. some souls are so attached to the earth that after the demise of the physical body they become earth bound and start roaming around the earth as ghost disturbing people. while others who have attained spiritual maturity once they drop the physical body moves straight into the heavenly worlds and does not need to reincarnate. if they come back they do so as spiritual masters in order to help fellow souls find their way back home to God.

Sir, has any of your grandparents reincarnated before or told you about his/her previous life? Where were you before this present life?

pastor prosper :
Jesus told me that hell is populated by Christians, he said there are several days when of all persons who died none made it to heaven.should the rapture occur this Moment wld u make it?

Please what is rapture and where can I find it in the scripture?

OLAADEGBU: This has already been answered unless you have not been reading my post. Here is it again.

Therefore, when the Bible says that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, it means that Jesus is equal to God, not less than God. QED

The above assertion is baseless and is a huge LIE. The truth is what you have been told by ijawkid. The begetter is not = the begotten. The former is always greater than the latter.

Isaac was "the only begotten son" of Abraham. He was not = Abraham, his father.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son," -Hebrews 11:17 (NKJV)

What Abraham did as describes by Paul at Hebrews 11:17 was a demonstration of what God would do to redeem man.

Abraham, the father of Isaac, represented Yahweh, our heavenly father.

Isaac, the only begotten son of Abraham, prefigured or represented Jesus, the only begotten son of Yahweh.

The only begotten son of Abraham was not = Abraham. Similarly, the only begotten son of Yahweh is not = Yahweh

OLAADEGBU: Now lets look at the verse you keep quoting without understanding its import:

"For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18).

The verse here says that Jesus Christ our Lord died in the flesh and not in the spirit which proves immortality of the spirit. His dead body was also resurrected by the Holy Spirit which is confirmed in Romans 8:11

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you"

You can see that you've been twisting this verse by your NWT to mean that Jesus was resurrected in the spirit when it actually means that our Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected by the Holy Spirit. It is now plain how cults twist God's Word to suit their erroneous beliefs.

According to1Peter 3:18 quoted bellow, in what form was Jesus put to death and made alive.

Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.- New English Translation (NET)

Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; - (WEB)

for Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, [the] just for [the] unjust, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in flesh, but made alive in [the] Spirit, - (BBE)

Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; - (ASV)

because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, - (YLT)

for Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, [the] just for [the] unjust, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in flesh, but made alive in [the] Spirit, - (DARBY)

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - (KJV)

Why does KJV use "in the" when describing Jesus' form of death, but uses "by the" when talking about his resurrection? Well, the reason is obvious.....one of those twists.

Can you justify your accusation with the above quotations?

aletheia: 2. Jesus claimed equality with the Father.

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.(Joh 5:17-18)

The Jews were angry because of Jesus' violation of the Sabbath, but they were furious when he was so presumptuous as to claim equality with the Father - the implication of his words My Father worketh hitherto, and I work, an implication that is clear to John the writer of the gospel who adds this but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Jesus distinctly says "My Father" (ho pater mou). Not "our father", a claim to a peculiar relation to the Father. Worketh hitherto (heos arti ergazetai). . .Jesus put himself on a par with God's activity and thus justifies his healing on the Sabbath.

It is also noteworthy that the Jews did not refer to God as "My Father". If they did, they would qualify the statement with "in heaven". This Jesus did not do. He made a claim that the Jews could not misinterpret when he called God "My Father". His claim was to a unique relationship with God as His Father. Just as a human father's son must be fully human, God's Son must be fully God. All that the Father is, the Son is.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (Joh 5:26)

Jesus never claimed equality with God, rather, it was the unbelieving Jews who falsely accused him of claiming equality with his father. At John 14:28 he openly declared that his father is greater than him. Of course, everyone would expect the father to be greater than his son.

aletheia, your last paragraph has brought to my mind the following scripture:

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” -John 20:17 (NKJV)

Considering your analogy, can we also say that Mary Magdalen is fully God? Or that other disciples are fully God? If no, why?

Jesus even added Something very interesting: "my God and your God", hmmmm!