₦airaland Forum

delkuf:
@gohf is salvation not free.

SALVATION IS NOT FOR FREE

ShawttySoFyne:
I've seen your arguments, but cant really tell where you stand. Are you for or against ?

for or against what?

So don't let anyone condemn you, those who practice false humility and worship messengers and angels as god, telling you of their visions and going into great detail of what they have seen. Because by doing so they disqualify and rob you of God's reward. These people claim to be so humble, but their sinful minds have made them proud. For they are not connectted to Christ nor receive nourishment from God to grow.

Look you have died in Christ and have been set free from such regulations that they seek to re-enslave you to.

The rules they teach you are not of eternal things but of things that perish.

Now these rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, humility, and severe bodily discipline. But they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person's evil thoughts and desires.
What they teach you doesn't change you, you still want, desire and hope for the things you did when you were in the world. Yet you feel it is a wise better way of getting what you want yet your mind haven't change. So you do all kinds of giving, fasting and praying but can you say your focus were on things above, can you say you do them accordingly to the teachings of Jesus?

What kind of life has the gospel you have been taught made you live, is your hope for the things of this earth or eternal life and the glory to come?

Col.3
Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits at God's right hand in the place of honor and power. Let heaven fill your thoughts. Do not think only about things down here on earth. So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual sin, impurity, lust, and shameful desires. Don't be greedy for the good things of this life, for that is idolatry.
God's terrible anger will come upon those who do such things. You were like that when your life was still part of this world.

In this new life, it doesn't matter your tribe, race, class or state. Christ is all that matters, and he lives in all of us, chosen by God to be the holy people whom he loves, so you must clothe yourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. You must make allowance for each other's faults and forgive the person who offends you. Remember, the Lord forgave you, so you must forgive others. And the most important piece of clothing you must wear is love. Love is what binds us all together in perfect harmony. And let the peace that comes from Christ rule in your hearts. For as members of one body you are all called to live in peace. And always be thankful.

Let the words of Christ, in all their richness, live in your hearts and make you wise. Use his words to teach and counsel each other. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts. And whatever you do or say, let it be as a representative of the Lord Jesus, all the while giving thanks through him to God the Father.


Devote yourselves to prayer with an alert mind and a thankful heart. Don't forget to pray for us, too, that God will give us many opportunities to preach about his secret plan--that Christ is also for you aren't Jews. Pray that I will proclaim this message as clearly as I should. Live wisely among those who are not Christians, and make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be gracious and effective so that you will have the right answer for everyone.

God bless you.

(Col.2.4,6 - 8 )
Let us not be deceived by fine-sounding arguments. If you have received Jesus Christ as Lord then continue to live in obedience to him.

So let us draw up nourishment from Jesus, so that we will grow in faith, and be strong in the truth we were taught. That we won't be lead astray with empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the evil powers of this world, and not from Christ.

For all of God's supply is in Jesus, so what we need is in Christ and we are complete and whole with him who is above every ruler, power and authority. You don't need physical circumcision for Jesus cuts off that nature of sin in us. For through baptism we partake of his death and through faith in God's power that raised Jesus in up, we partake of his resurrection.

What brought us death was cut away, and what gives us life what brought to us, Christ Jesus.

God also forgave all our sins which according to the regulations of Moses we were guilty of and were against us, and nailed them to the cross. So that what the devil would have used against us was disposed off, putting them to shame and giving us victory through the cross. So don't let anyone condemn you concerning those things written in the laws of moses, for all those ceremonies, what to eat and what not to eat, those sacrifices and special days were all a shadow of Christ who was to come.

The love we have for God's people is because of the hope we have, so those who are looking forward to the joys of heaven because of the truth we have heard from the gospel are able love others and bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. So when we hear the gospel and come to understand God's grace, it develops in us a hope that enables us to love others. (Col. 1:4-6)

The only source of this hope that enables us love others is the gospel. If you desire a hope that enables you to truly love then listen to the good news from Jesus.

You see the way we live our lives is based on what we know, what we understand and what we hope for, when our hope and expectations are centered on things of the world in this earth, it would be difficult to love others and please God. But if we believe the promise of God's reward for the good we do, then our lives here on earth would not discourage us from doing God's will.

The more we know God's will, and receive His wisdom and understanding, we will be able to live a life worthy of him and please him in every way. And the way to please God is to bear the fruit of the Spirit by doing good and kind things to others and also we please God by increasing our knowledge of God.

It's sad some don't desire to know more about God, either because they believe they already know who God is or that all there is to know about God has already been revealed but this doesn't please God at all. Knowing God and his Son brings us eternal life and many are perishing because of lack of this knowledge that gives us hope.

You see to know God, His will and for us to do it, are what pleases God, so God strengthens us with His power to do His will and live this way. And without God's power many of us won't be able endure nor patiently wait for God's reward. So when God sees that you're after Him, His heart and His will, He will give you the power to do His will. Truly, God knows all those who genuinely desire to know Him.

When you come to know God, you will discover that it is His power that enables us to be among His people and it is God who brought us out from darkness and brought us to His son Jesus.

And what should we know about Jesus, well, God purchased our freedom from the kingdom darkness with the blood of Jesus and through Jesus we receive forgiveness of our sins.

Jesus is God's representative, the image of God, the firstborn over all of God's creation, because God used him to create all things and all these things are for Jesus, those powers thrones and authorities. So Jesus is first before other things and they receive approval from him. He is the foundation God laid that holds all things and he is our head, the head of the church. The first resurrected from the dead and so is first in everything and in Jesus all that is approved and all that is needed dwells, so that through Jesus all things are restored for peace, so Jesus brought us into himself by shedding his blood because once we were separated by our evil desires and deeds but now we have been reconciled and united in his body to be made holy.

Jesus makes us holy if we continue in faith and not are moved from the hope we got when he heard the gospel.

The purpose of teaching the gospel is so that we may be encouraged in heart and united in love, and know that we are rich when we understand the mystery of God which is Christ in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge that we need. (Col.2.2-3) the purpose of the gospel is for us to value these things and feel rich by them, and not be discouraged or be divided by our own desires.

...

Thankgod89:
If salvation is only for those who practice what Jesus taught, then what exactly is salvation? Someone said it’s a reward, but I'm going that way.

My brother, salvation comes by grace through faith

Salvation is not solely for those who practice what Jesus taught. Salvation is a gift of God's grace, received through faith in Jesus Christ. However, genuine salvation will produce a desire to obey Jesus' teachings: As we grow in our relationship with Jesus, we'll increasingly want to follow His teachings and live according to His will.

Romans 10:9 – “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

look I am not interested in your conversation with Maxindhouse and him propagating his church's doctrines, because he cares more about that than what is actually in the new testament. I am quoting you because do you realize you don't know what salvation is.. because if you did you would also know what Jesus taught.

You don't know what Jesus taught and you probably don't even do it, because you believe a lie that salvation is free.

Jesus taught us to love, Jesus taught us to be merciful.

You hear and read the story of the criminal that received the promise of eternal life from Jesus and you don't see love there, you don't see mercy. Matt 27 said they both mocked him, but it seems at some point one of them repented and stopped mocking him

Salvation is a gift, salvation is a gift why didn't Jesus give it to the other criminal that mocked him and behaved wickedly, and had no sympathy. Did that criminal not say Jesus you are the Messiah oya save yourself and us as well, why was he ignored. It's a free gift right. Does he need to fear God to receive his salvation like the other criminal asked him, don't you fear God..


You are asking what was the obedience he did to receive salvation, okay as you are answering tell us what obedience he did after he received the salvation?

James 3:1 Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged by God with greater strictness.


When a person calls the vastiness of testimonies written by the apostles, 'excessive scriptures' that cannot turn their falsehood into the truth, it shows they reject the testimony for their personal believe. When people believe their own teachings against the truth of God, they first start with a conclusion even while accusing others of insisting to be right.

For example: After so much effort, the conclusion remains the same: “Salvation is free for the children of God.”


Whose effort? Yet this person also claims, "Let me be clear—I am not here to "win" a debate but to present what Scripture teaches." Even when they have ignored repeatedly what is written, calling it excessive and that it cannot change their view. Is this not an example of false humility? They speak of their efforts and pretend to present what the scripture teaches, this is false humility.


One evidence of false humility is self justification
"I love discussing the Bible, not with an attitude of knowing it all, but with a humble heart, willing to learn."

Love discussing the bible, and the scriptures quoted are excessive for you to discuss but it's okay for you to quote them and attach your conclusion to them without no form of explanation and expect it to be accepted as the truth.

Someone who claims they are willing to learn, said the scriptures posted were excessive and cannot change their view. I don't know what the attitude of knowing it all is, but when a person makes a mistake and even when it is pointed out, they avoid it, they don't have the humility to acknowledge it. And I am not talking about scriptural mistake, simple casual day to day normal human mistakes, nobody would kill you for it, but when you are highminded even a simple correction will be taken the wrong way.

This is what Paul wrote "soterian katergazesthe" which means achieve salvation, bring about salvation, effect through labor salvation, work out salvation all in line with his admonition to continually obey God

And this is my personal opinion, am I the author of Philipians 2:12?

Romans 6:23 for the opsonia of sin is death but the charisma of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Charisma means grace and even deliverance while doron means gift. And even at that you may not want to accept that the grace of God is eternal life, you may continue to tell yourself it's free irrespective of all that is taught in the new testament concerning our inheritance.

But still Romans 6, Paul continues his message on grace having revealed in chapter 5 that through Adam's sin we die but through the grace of Jesus Christ we live, writing in Romans 5:21 that grace might reign not through sinfulness but through righteousness to bring eternal life, to result to eternal life, which is the salvation of our souls. Instead of Paul saying you got anything for free, he tells us you have now become a slave to God and no more of sin, so instead of working for sin you shouldn't work for God.


The book of Hebrews say there are bastards who do not know the discipline of God.. which purpose is to work and bring us to obedience unto salvation, unto eternal life that we may live.

You can choose to obey God and receive his approval, obedience that leads to righteousness, you choose to serve righteousness so that you can be holy. Did you read verse 22 or Romans 6

Rom.6.22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. (NLT)


Why would you jump and avoid the verses, the devil avoided the first verses of Psalm 91 and quoted something to Jesus and told him to jump off the roof.

Many of you believing the lie of the devil are tempting God with your nonsense excuse of what you believe.

It has already been revealed that those who deserved to be saved are those who do God's will and live according to His desire, which is for us to do what is right and to love others. God will not save those filled with hatred and wickedness who refused to change.


Titus 3
Someone who wants to learn would realize the fruit is the fruit of the Holy Spirit who seals us into salvation.

We once bad lives but when the kindness and love of God showed up, according to His mercy, He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

To understand what Paul wrote here, you need to recall that John wrote in the gospels that Jesus called the living water the gift of God, which is the Holy Spirit, which does what

John.4.14b It becomes a perpetual spring within them, giving them eternal life."

You can see the agreement that God is working in you, the Spirit of God is in you to do his will and bear fruit. And we did not receive the Spirit of God because we did something for it, it was actually what Jesus did, that's it is by God's mercy.


So God sent Jesus to us not because of anything humans did but because of his mercy and he saves us through the work of the Holy Spirit, which is given to us because of what Jesus did and we are set free because of his grace so that we might inherit eternal life, so that we MIGHT become heirs having the hope and expectation for eternal life.

So because of the Holy Spirit we have a new life upon the earth with a goal for eternal life. And because that is our goal, the next verse in Titus 3

Titus.3.8 - These things I have told you are all true. I want you to insist on them so that everyone who trusts in God will be careful to do good deeds all the time. These things are good and beneficial for everyone.
Titus.3.9 - Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These kinds of things are useless and a waste of time.
Titus.3.11 - For people like that have turned away from the truth. They are sinning, and they condemn themselves.


Thankgod89 if you like drop any verse from the bible, the whole chapter and even the book will be searched and taught. We are not afraid of the volume of God's word this is what we are called to do.


Jesus said in John.10.28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me,...

Now when does he give us eternal life?

John.5.25 - "And I assure you that the time is coming, in fact it is here, when the dead will hear my voice--the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live.
John.5.28 - Don't be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God's Son,
John.5.29 - and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgment.
John.5.30 - But I do nothing without consulting the Father. I judge as I am told. And my judgment is absolutely just, because it is according to the will of God who sent me; it is not merely my own.


Jesus himself says recorded by John, says THOSE WHO HAVE DONE GOOD I WILL GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE.

I shared this with someone earlier today:

Speaking of context in Ephesians 2
Paul is like, so I want you to know that salvation is by grace through faith which is not from yourself but a gift of God and so not of your works, like circumcision which the Jews are proud of, vs.11, so that you don't boost about such things like them. We are then born again to do the works God had already planned for us to do, vs. 10.

So the purpose of our repenting and obtaining mercy is for us to obey.

Now does Paul want us to know what salvation is or how we are saved?


Paul starts Ephesians 2 saying we were once living in sin like others but because of God's mercy and love we are brought to life with Christ, joined together with Christ. This referring to those who repented and turn to God.

Look at it this way;
A. Salvation is not works
B. Salvation is not by works

Which of the two did Paul write?

It is that salvation is not by works but the result of a gift that God gave, which is Jesus.


Now it is confusing to anyone who believes salvation is a gift when you tell them that they are expected to obey God, or to work their salvation out.


The other Apostles or letters call salvation a result of our faith.

1Pet.1.9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (NIV)
1Pet.1.9 Your reward for trusting him will be the salvation of your souls. (NLT)


But if we already are saved or have salvation then it no longer becomes a goal.

Now coming to Philippians 2 it is understandable to say that if salvation is a gift then working it out or bringing it to pass would mean maintaining it and keeping hold of it.

But that changes the definition of salvation. Salvation is supposed to mean we are safe or we are separated from eternal death.

And when you write about nurturing it and growing it, that is what we say of faith.

But If the devil can steal salvation then those who are saved are not safe, so where should their trust be in, in God who saves or in ourselves who have to keep it or we lose it. But if salvation is a reward as death & destruction is a reward, it means it is not in our hands but in God's hands. So we work for it and walk towards it that at the end we may attain it.

So what is given to us is faith that we may come boldly to obtain mercy and grace. That's why we shouldn't lose our faith.



Philippians 2 Paul first writes on humility and tell us to continually obey God whether anyone is watching us or not, but because of the fear of God in us. As you have obeyed continue to work out your salvation knowing that God gives you the desire and the grace that enables you to obey him.

We then see that without God's grace at work within us we won't be able to obey nor to be saved.

When Paul speaks of grace he writes

Rom.11.6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
1Cor.15.10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
2Cor.9.8 - And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.
Eph.3.7 - I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power.


So the grace of God made available to us helps us do good works. You know in Romans 11:4 the 7,000 selected by grace was because they didn't commit idolatry. Even grace isn't free to everyone, James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5 God gives grace to the humble

Rom.12.3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. (NIV)

So grace is given to us for us to serve him and to be saved. And we can't receive it without humility and faith.

So the grace that saves us is through faith in Jesus and not through works of the law. Because the grace is from Jesus and is received by those who believe and obey him. It is very important that we understand the difference between the works required by the laws of Moses and the works of faith that is an evidence of our faith and show that our faith is alive and active.

Ephesians 2:8-9 again
What does grace do, grace saves
How do we get grace? Through faith
Is faith of ourselves? No, it is given by God
Is there a work or task for us to do to have faith? No, if our faith is based on what we do then we can boost but if our faith is based on what God has done then we glorify God.

How does grace save? Well God creates in you a new heart that enables you carry out his will because He saves those who do His will.


Is salvation free for everyone? No it is only for the children of God.

Grace makes us accepted to God in ways that the laws from Moses, circumcision and all, does not. And that's the major difference God already gave his commandments but now we have received grace to do his will.

So while a new born baby can be saved because of the mercy of God even without them living till the 8th day for circumcision nor if they are female. They cannot be guilty of breaking any of God's command.

Meanwhile an adult is expected to continually live in God's mercy and be merciful till the day they die for them to be saved. A baby hasn't hurt anybody and not even their paternal or adamic sin can bring them destruction because of the blood of Jesus. So as we grow and learn the ways of the world and hurt others, God expects us to do what is right with the time given to us...

At times we just need to ignore those who want to argue and win, because they would go to the extent of saying and changing the meaning of what is written.

Philippians 2:12 from the Greek text Paul clearly teaches us to obey God always and achieve salvation, "soterian katergazesthe"

In Ephesians 2, Paul writes For grace saves (verb) you, through faith which is not from yourselves, because it is not from our works but is the gift of God.

When John writes 1John.2.17 And this world is fading away, along with everything it craves. But if you do the will of God, you will live forever.

And someone tells you "This does not contradict free salvation. Instead, it shows that true faith produces obedience"

You don't need to ask them how? Because they will only say a bunch of good sounding words with one motive, "I am right listen to me". You will understand nothing and only end up confused.

Take for instance
"The scripture is clear, and I see no reason to disagree because God is not the author of confusion. The Bible teaches that salvation is a free gift from God"


Where are the clear scriptures that clearly say I have to do nothing and say nothing and I will be saved.

Then they make it about themselves, you cares if you disagree or agree. Of course God is not an author of confusion but men are.

An example of confusion, Jesus clearly said those who turn away will perish

But an author of confusion who claims this is clear says

"It highlights the cost of discipleship. Once a person commits to following Jesus, they must not turn back to their old ways.
It does not mean salvation is earned"

If it highlights the cost of discipleship then what is discipleship, what is the value of it, what is the need for it?

Instead of asking a confused human, read your Bible, Jesus said in John.8.31 - 32
Jesus said to the people who believed in him, "You are truly my disciples if you keep obeying my teachings. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Those who obey him are his disciples and they will know the truth and they will be set free.

Infact don't listen to my explanations just read and, pray, ask the Holy Spirit to teach you.

1John.2.20 - 25
But you are not like that, for the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and all of you know the truth. So I am writing to you not because you don't know the truth but because you know the difference between truth and falsehood... So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will continue to live in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life.

Matt.10.22 And everyone will hate you because of your allegiance to me. But those who endure to the end will be saved.

Matt.24.12-13 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matt.25.34 - 36
Then the King will say to those on the right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.
I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.'

Luke.10.25-28
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

John.5.24 "I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

John.12.50 And I know his instructions lead to eternal life; so I say whatever the Father tells me to say!"

After saying salvation leads to eternal life and eternal life wasn't promised as a reward by Jesus

Yet John wrote about it the promise of eternal life, even in Revelations where they deceptively avoiding mentioning that the reward for Ephesus was eating from the tree of life, for smyrna is the reward to escape the second death. These rewards were mentioned before manna, new name, authority over nations. Then Sardis whose reward was to not have their names removed from the book of life. Then the pillars at the temple and the throne of God.

Is your heart not broken at the lies men tell, the pride, and yet even in the face of the truth they won't repent. They will teach lies that destroy both them and those who listen to them. If your heart is not broken, mine is.

delkuf:
faith is worked out no doubts but salvation is a gift.

He didn't repent that was why it is gift.

not surprised it is you writing this, you are stubborn to a fault even when your mistakes are pointed out you don't admit them nor turn away from them. So how would you even understand what repentance is

But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ” Luke 23: 40 - 42

delkuf:
the man that was crucified with Jesus did he obeyed God in any way. Did he lived a righteous life but Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise. So my brother Salvation is a gift. If you are talking of faith. Faith need to be worked out. But not salvation

the gospel: repent for the kingdom of God is at hand

Did he repent or not?

You work out faith 🙄 so you get faith by working for it 🤦

ShawttySoFyne:
The fact that we're currently doing a series "saved by grace" in church...this thread is interesting

😊 hope you learn, ask, contribute and bless us

steveodo:
if your elder brother gift you a clothes, the fact that the cloth was gifted you does not mean you should not wash and iron it. if you dont wash and iron it, the cloth will become dirty and will not be presentable before men, the germs from the cloth will also contaminated your body and put your health in danger.

so you think salvation are like clothes that can get dirty and grow old 🙄

delkuf:
@gohf salvation is not a reward oooooo. Did you worked for it. It is a gift. Something we did not work for. We are not rewarded with salvation.

don't obey God and work for him na, since he has dashed you salvation already. Don't worry you don't even need to be fruitful ba... continue.

Thankgod89:
you quoted Mark 10:17-27 and say that Jesus was exposing his heart by telling him the truth, it is either you didn't read the text and study it with the Holy Spirit and you are writing out what men have taught you.
So according to your response, if I haven’t studied with the Holy Spirit, then you have? That would mean you're claiming that the Spirit has revealed to you that salvation is a reward.

I’m not here to prove that I know more than anyone else. This isn’t about who is right or wrong but about what the Scripture truly says.

Also, you made an unnecessary jab, as if we were debating political issues. What was the reason for saying, "because it feels like I am responding to a child that feels they want to be right rather than understand the truth"? That statement was completely out of line.

The verses you quoted do not indicate that salvation is a reward. While there are rewards in heaven, salvation itself is not one of them.

For example, in Matthew 24:13, when Jesus says, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved," He is not contradicting salvation by grace. Rather, He is emphasizing that genuine believers will remain steadfast in their faith despite trials and temptations.

Jesus' statement encourages faithful perseverance—not as a way to earn salvation, but as a reflection of true, living faith. Those who truly belong to Christ will remain firm, not by their own strength, but because God sustains them.

As a matter of fact, Jesus was speaking about the end times, warning His disciples that as wickedness increases, many people's love for God will "grow cold."

This does not mean that true believers will lose their salvation. Rather, it means that many will fall away, revealing that their faith was never genuine.

Take note of this, 1 John 2:19 1 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

lol, say whatever you want. This response is not for your sake

Luke.9.62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

1John.2.17 And this world is fading away, along with everything it craves. But if you do the will of God, you will live forever.
1John.2.20 - 25
But you are not like that, for the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and all of you know the truth. So I am writing to you not because you don't know the truth but because you know the difference between truth and falsehood... So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will continue to live in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life.

Antichristian2:
Adam's punishment ushered in life on earth a place to test who deserves Paradise or Hell.

Destiny ends in Hell or Paradise!

it seems like I am helping you correct yourself

Antichristian2:
Adam's punishment didn't affect his descendants. They never tasted the life of paradise. Their destinies started and ended on earth as Allah willed for them. Adam was in Paradise before he was sent down to earth!

so according to you someone is punished and thrown into prison and his descendants who are born in that prison are left in that prison because they never tasted freedom...?

So your god willed for your destiny to end here on earth?

Thankgod89:
If the Holy Spirit has revealed to you that salvation is a reward, who am I to question your claim? However, the Scriptures are clear, and I believe there is no hidden interpretation. One principle I always uphold in biblical discussions is to never say what the Bible does not say.

Your explanation is incorrect, yet you continue to insist that you are right.

Here are my points from Mark 10:17-27: The man walked away sorrowful, revealing that his attachment to wealth was greater than his desire for eternal life. This emphasizes that salvation is not merely about external obedience but about full surrender to Christ.

Now, consider the disciples’ reaction and Jesus’ response in verses 26-27:

"[26] And they were astonished beyond measure, saying among themselves, ‘Who then can be saved?’ [27] But Jesus, looking at them, said, ‘With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.’"

If salvation were simply a reward for good works or obedience, why didn’t Jesus say so? Instead, He declared that salvation is impossible for man to attain on his own. This proves that salvation is not something we earn—it is only possible with God’s help because it is a free gift.

"If the Holy Spirit has revealed to you that salvation is a reward, who am I to question your claim?"

Who made the claim 🙄

You believe there is no hidden interpretation.

Did I tell you I was giving you a hidden interpretation?

One principle you always uphold in biblical discussions is to never say what the Bible does not say.

If you want to justify yourself continue but instead of praising yourself you should have just shown what the bible says.

Do you think my words are about me insisting I am right, are the words about me? Is this a discuss to prove who is right? If so then it's okay I am wrong believe whatever you want.

You claimed my explanation is incorrect without showing how or why it is incorrect. Look my response is not because of whatever opinion you want to have about me. 😆

Did I tell you that salvation is devoid of God's help. Let me use your own words, that salvation is impossible for man to attain on his own. Why didn't you write that Jesus said Salvation is given completely by God and not that man needs God's help to obey Him.

So Jesus reveals we need God's help but here you are claiming that it is completely free from God. Then why didn't Jesus tell that to the rich man, why did he comment the apostles who left all and followed him?

Go back and read my responses again, because it feels like I am responding to a child that feels they want to be right rather than understand the truth.

You are asking like I haven't told you that Jesus repeated taught salvation and eternal life as a reward.

You can still go ahead and call these verses my claiming to be right

Matt.10.22 And everyone will hate you because of your allegiance to me. But those who endure to the end will be saved.

Matt.24.12-13 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matt.25.34 - 36
Then the King will say to those on the right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.
I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.'

Luke.10.25-28
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

John.5.24 "I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

John.12.50 And I know his instructions lead to eternal life; so I say whatever the Father tells me to say!"

Antichristian2:
Adam was the first man and he sinned. God sent him and his wife to earth. There they multiplied. God's intention was to fill the earth with humans. So they reproduced on earth!

How did God continue to punish Adam?

Adam sinned and was sent down to earth. Later God forgave him when he repented. Allah promised to send guidance and whoever follows His guidance will not grief. But the disobedient ones will be punished with hell.

You are not answering this question

"The question still stands if you can answer is, if the consequences of Adam's actions were not inherited according to you, why were he children of Adam left outside the garden or are you saying the children were allowed in, expect Adam who received that as a punishment, according to what you have said?"

Instead you are suggesting that what you said earlier that Adam was punished is wrong and he was only sent to earth or you are saying that it was God's plan to punish Adam, has his intention was for he and his wife to be on earth.

Now you are completely denying that Adam was punished for anything or that you said God did nothing after you claimed he was forgiven.


By the way, you are writing this send down to earth, where was the garden, was it not on earth?

Thankgod89:
No sir,salvation is not a reward,

Salvation in the Bible is consistently presented as a gift rather than a reward. A reward is something earned through effort, while a gift is given freely, often without merit. However, the response to that gift—faith, repentance, and obedience—demonstrates that a person has truly received it.

In the case of the rich young ruler (Mark 10:17-27), Jesus told him to obey God's commands, but when the man claimed to have done so, Jesus exposed his heart by asking him to sell everything and follow Him. The man walked away sorrowful, showing that his attachment to wealth was greater than his desire for eternal life. This highlights that salvation isn’t merely about external obedience but about surrender to Christ.

With Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10), his repentance and restitution were signs of his changed heart. But Jesus didn't say, "Today you have earned salvation." Instead, He declared, "Today salvation has come to this house." Zacchaeus' actions were the evidence of a transformed heart, not the means by which he achieved salvation.

Paul makes it clear in Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Salvation is God's gift, but genuine faith will always produce obedience and good works (Ephesians 2:10, James 2:17).

So, while obedience is crucial, salvation itself is not a reward for obedience—it is a gift that leads to obedience.

you quoted Mark 10:17-27 and say that Jesus was exposing his heart by telling him the truth, it is either you didn't read the text and study it with the Holy Spirit and you are writing out what men have taught you. Is the purpose of telling us the truth to expose us or to save us?

What is written in Mark is that Jesus loved him and revealed more to him
Mark.10.21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Infact in other gospel accounts it was stated that it was the man who asked Jesus if there was anything he lacked.

This account wasn't the only time Jesus answered a question concerning eternal life and obedience to God. In Matthew 25 when Jesus speaks about the righteous going to eternal life he mentions the good works they did. In Matthew 7 when he rejects those who claim to know him, it is because they did not do the will of God. In that Mark 10 and Matthew 19, Jesus had to answer Peter concerning those of them that gave it all to follow Jesus and Jesus spike about their reward in heaven. Yes the giving wasn't for salvation and for eternal life, it was so the man would have a great reward in heaven seeing as he is going there having obeyed God. It is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of God because it is hard for them to obey Jesus who teaches us to give, to forsake all.

But then you claim, "salvation isn’t merely about external obedience but about surrender to Christ." Please surrender is obedience, you can't surrender and live life how ever way you want, your surrender is shown by your obedience there is nothing like internal obedience that's a lie of the devil. Jesus said one said he will go but didn't external do anything but one refused but external went and Jesus asked which of the two obeyed, that's in Matt 21. I can still bring out more verses that debunk your believe that salvation is a free gift.

But for now, you quoted Luke 19:1-10
Then you wrote, "But Jesus didn't say, "Today you have earned salvation." Instead, He declared, "Today salvation has come to this house."

Luke.19.9 Jesus responded, "Salvation has come to this home today, for this man has shown himself to be a son of Abraham.

Look the fact that you say because it wasn't written earned can be thrown back at you, did Paul wrote salvation is a free gift?....

Thankgod89:
No sir,salvation is not a reward,

Salvation in the Bible is consistently presented as a gift rather than a reward. A reward is something earned through effort, while a gift is given freely, often without merit. However, the response to that gift—faith, repentance, and obedience—demonstrates that a person has truly received it.

In the case of the rich young ruler (Mark 10:17-27), Jesus told him to obey God's commands, but when the man claimed to have done so, Jesus exposed his heart by asking him to sell everything and follow Him. The man walked away sorrowful, showing that his attachment to wealth was greater than his desire for eternal life. This highlights that salvation isn’t merely about external obedience but about surrender to Christ.

With Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10), his repentance and restitution were signs of his changed heart. But Jesus didn't say, "Today you have earned salvation." Instead, He declared, "Today salvation has come to this house." Zacchaeus' actions were the evidence of a transformed heart, not the means by which he achieved salvation.

Paul makes it clear in Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Salvation is God's gift, but genuine faith will always produce obedience and good works (Ephesians 2:10, James 2:17).

So, while obedience is crucial, salvation itself is not a reward for obedience—it is a gift that leads to obedience.

now you believe that salvation is consistently presented as a gift but apart from your misunderstanding of Ephesians 2:8 you can't show anywhere where one is thought to be given salvation for doing nothing

Thankgod89:
The entire process of salvation is God’s gift, which includes grace, faith, and being saved. Both salvation and faith are gifts from God.

true it is God's gift, well you have gone from saying salvation is 100% a free gift to saying salvation is attainable.
I can understand us seeing salvation as a gift from God but God doesn't go about dashing salvation.

The rich man asked Jesus how to receive eternal life, Jesus told him to obey God's commands. When Zacchaues repented, offered restitution and obeyed Jesus teaching to give to the poor, that's when Jesus declared that salvation has come to him. Zacchaues didn't do those things for Jesus to come to his house, you can say Jesus accepting his invitation or going to his house was a gift but his decision to submit and obey brought salvation to him.

It is better to call salvation a reward, for the grace of God through Jesus gives us eternal life. While the reward for sin is death. But then we are rewarded only because God is merciful and forgives all our sins and doesn't count any of them but counts only our obedience to him. That is salvation as a result of God's gift

malvisguy212:
very good. Bless you. James complement Paul work. Paul teaches that Abraham believe and James complement the teaching by saying Abraham don't just seat down and claim he believed, he show the evidence of his faith by taken a bold step to sacrifice his son Isaac.

James clearly writes that the works are an evidence of faith not an evidence that a man is saved.

Infact when James writes about faith, he like Paul and Peter say faith leads to salvation, James specifies the kind of faith

Jas.2.14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Except you are saying faith is salvation instead of faith leads to salvation.

Look the question is, "if salvation is a gift like some teach it, how can one work it out like Paul writes in Philippians 2:12.

Ephesians 2 mentions through faith not by works, and obviously Paul writes what he refers to as works as he usually does, circumcision and laws of Moses, of which our faith isn't based on. James clearly states the works that are a result of our faith that leads to salvation.

What did Jesus teach gives a man eternal life, that he believes hears and disobeys or that he hears and obeys doing God's will

Thankgod89:
I'm not mixing faith and salvation but emphasizing that faith leads to salvation.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Faith is God-given, not something we generate on our own. We believe in what God has done through Christ, and that faith leads to salvation.

Meanwhile James does not contradict Paul but highlights that true faith produces works as evidence of salvation:

you agree that faith leads to salvation
so which is the gift faith or salvation

malvisguy212:
answer this question. When you are saved. How can you show the evidence of a save faith?
Good works are not what a man DOES in order to be SAVED; Good works are what a SAVED MAN DOES .

Now listen, God’s holiness utterly condemns the best man but God grace freely justify the worst.

first off God's holiness doesn't condemn the best man, seeing as the best man is Jesus neither does it even condemn the worst of us who repent, believe and obey God.

Also God's grace doesn't justify the worst, no, Paul wrote those who are called, God justified but we know from what Jesus said not every one called would answer, so, Jesus said, many are called few are chosen. Chosen, elected by grace.

Thankgod89:
I see your point, and I agree that salvation is attainable and secure in Christ (John 10:28). However, while salvation includes eternal life, the ultimate goal is not just receiving eternal life but being fully restored to perfect fellowship with God (Revelation 21:3-4) and conformed to Christ’s image (Romans 8:29).

Salvation is both a gift received and a journey of transformation. Those who are truly saved will bear fruit, not as a means to earn salvation but as evidence of genuine faith (Ephesians 2:10, James 2:17).

James 2:17 you are mixing faith and salvation again. In Ephesians Paul already clarified that faith is the process, through faith and he doesn't refer to salvation as the process because it is the goal that we are saved. It is because the faith required for us to be saved comes from God not from ourselves that makes faith in Jesus whom God sends to us, the gift. Paul wrote this is faith, that we don't think who will send Jesus to us or bring him out from the grave but God has done all that, that we believe what God has done and live by it.

While our relationship with God is being restored through the reconciliation brought by Jesus Christ our way to God. Our full transformation occurs only after we have left his world, as this present body cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and it is not his flesh that is saved but our souls.

Thankgod89:
Salvation and eternal life are not separate; rather, eternal life is an essential part of salvation, not just its ultimate goal and I don’t believe I ever implied otherwise, Mind you the ultimate goal of salvation is not just receiving eternal life but being fully united with God, transformed into the image of Christ, and dwelling with Him forever.

When a person is saved, they immediately receive eternal life (John 3:16, John 5:24). However, the full experience of eternal life will be realized in the future when we are glorified with Christ (Romans 8:30, Philippians 3:20-21).

Also, I’d like to emphasize this: "Someone who merely claims to be saved but does not bear fruit may not truly be saved."

Are these not your very words?
"The ultimate goal is eternal life with God, but salvation is the doorway into that life."

Now you are saying you didn't imply it, and writing that, "ultimate goal of salvation is not just receiving eternal life but being fully united with God, transformed into the image of Christ, and dwelling with Him forever."

Adding more words doesn't change what you wrote.

Anyway this isn't a simple answer to yes salvation and eternal life are the same, because I believe that's what you mean when you write when a person is saved they receive eternal life. And that salvation and eternal life are not separate so they are the same.

malvisguy212:
the work of our salvation is already done. All you have to do is believed.

Now, how can we recognise the saved man, ? We can only recognise him by his good work, this work is not the work of his salvation, is an evidence for a save faith.

Is like you want to go for a journey, you simply enter the car, rest and allowed the car take you to your destination. You are resting on the work of this car .

I do not work my soul to save, That my Lord hath done but I will work like any slave for the love of God dear son.

except that you actually have to drive the car to get to your destination.

The work of salvation is the work towards salvation, so when you say the work is already done you mean the person is already saved then there is no more work needed for the person has entered God's rest.

But then even Paul said he had not yet attained it, or that he should miss it.

If you are referring to the cross of Christ, that work is the foundation of our faith but Jesus never said that once he died there was nothing for us to do. He was asked a number of times concerning eternal life and salvation and his response was obedience to God. Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me.

You wrote of evidence of a saved man, well what is a man saved from, if you say from sin then that means he would never commit a sin till he dies if you say saved from death then it means he would never physically die.

Now the evidence you speak of, is for those who believe and have faith, those whose hope is for the salvation of their souls.

1Pet.1.9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Thankgod89:
Salvation is not merely a means to an end; it includes eternal life but also leads to its full realization in the future.

According to Ephesians 2:8-9, salvation is 100% a free gift—not something we earn. However, receiving salvation marks the start of a lifelong journey, not just a one-time event. The Bible speaks of salvation in different tenses:

Past: "You have been saved" (Ephesians 2: – Justification (declared righteous).

Present: "You are being saved" (1 Corinthians 1:18) – Sanctification (growing in holiness).

Future: "You will be saved" (Romans 5:9-10) – Glorification (final transformation).


Thus, while we don’t work for salvation, we are called to work out our salvation (Philippians 2:12) because God is actively working in us (Philippians 2:13).

You also asked that can Someone Be Saved and Still Perish?

No. If salvation is a gift from God and is received by faith, a truly saved person will not perish (John 10:28). However, someone who merely claims to be saved but does not bear fruit may not truly be saved (Matthew 7:21-23).

Salvation results in a transformed life, but good works are the evidence of salvation, not the requirement for it (Ephesians 2:10).

now from 1 Corinthians 1:18 and Romans 5:9-10 that you quoted we can see the agreement with John 3:16 that salvation is the goal.

Now the basis of the question was on you previously suggesting that salvation is the means of attaining eternal life. But one understands that salvation is eternal life, one would know it is impossible to perish when you have been saved. It shows it as an end goal. Like you quoted John.10.28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me,... and also Matt 7:21-23 of those who confess but do not obey God, would not be saved. So it stands to reason that salvation is attainable.

Good works are actually an evidence of faith which results to salvation for those who please God.

Thankgod89:
Salvation is not merely a means to an end; it includes eternal life but also leads to its full realization in the future.

According to Ephesians 2:8-9, salvation is 100% a free gift—not something we earn. However, receiving salvation marks the start of a lifelong journey, not just a one-time event. The Bible speaks of salvation in different tenses:

Past: "You have been saved" (Ephesians 2: – Justification (declared righteous).

Present: "You are being saved" (1 Corinthians 1:18) – Sanctification (growing in holiness).

Future: "You will be saved" (Romans 5:9-10) – Glorification (final transformation).


Thus, while we don’t work for salvation, we are called to work out our salvation (Philippians 2:12) because God is actively working in us (Philippians 2:13).

You also asked that can Someone Be Saved and Still Perish?

No. If salvation is a gift from God and is received by faith, a truly saved person will not perish (John 10:28). However, someone who merely claims to be saved but does not bear fruit may not truly be saved (Matthew 7:21-23).

Salvation results in a transformed life, but good works are the evidence of salvation, not the requirement for it (Ephesians 2:10).

First off in Ephesians 2, Paul is addressing those who have repented from their former way of life, verse 2- 5... in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. (NIV)

So because of those sins we were dead but then because of God's mercy we are made alive and then by grace we have been saved. Then in verse 8, Paul mentions faith

If we are to say what does Paul mean by works, he usually mentions it in line with circumcision, laws of Moses and the Jews which he does once again in verse 11. But in verse 10 Paul talks about the purpose of our new creation is to do new works which I believe is opposite of the works of sin and the flesh the believers repented from.

Have you tried considering that maybe salvation isn't what Paul is referring to as "it is the free gift of God"

It is not by works, what is not by laws of Moses or circumcision, thats salvation.

If the "it" is salvation, which is not by works but by the gift of God, do you realize then that Paul didn't write that salvation is 100% a gift of God?

Thankgod89:
Salvation is not merely a means to an end; it includes eternal life but also leads to its full realization in the future.

According to Ephesians 2:8-9, salvation is 100% a free gift—not something we earn. However, receiving salvation marks the start of a lifelong journey, not just a one-time event. The Bible speaks of salvation in different tenses:

Past: "You have been saved" (Ephesians 2: – Justification (declared righteous).

Present: "You are being saved" (1 Corinthians 1:18) – Sanctification (growing in holiness).

Future: "You will be saved" (Romans 5:9-10) – Glorification (final transformation).


Thus, while we don’t work for salvation, we are called to work out our salvation (Philippians 2:12) because God is actively working in us (Philippians 2:13).

You also asked that can Someone Be Saved and Still Perish?

No. If salvation is a gift from God and is received by faith, a truly saved person will not perish (John 10:28). However, someone who merely claims to be saved but does not bear fruit may not truly be saved (Matthew 7:21-23).

Salvation results in a transformed life, but good works are the evidence of salvation, not the requirement for it (Ephesians 2:10).

before I give a detailed response to this. Are you now saying that Salvation and eternal life are not two different things anymore but that eternal life is in salvation and not the goal of salvation?

BlackViper:
We don't derive the divine nature of the Triune God from a diagram, rather we get a full picture from Scripture.

The diagram is simply a schematic to help explain what the basic idea of the Trinity is.

where did you find that full picture in scripture?
Where you are told there are three gods God the father god the son god the spirit. Please post the scripture here so we can read it, even if it's not in the scriptures use the gospels and letters and revelations as well.