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This event continues in Acts 4, and still Peter doesn't proclaim Jesus is Jehovah or God, but God's servant whom God has glorified by giving him authority which we believers have received and use.

Acts.4.7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, "By what power or by what name have you done this?"

It was to this question, Peter answered by the Holy Spirit, he was healed in the name and power of Jesus Christ, whom you crucified but God raised from the dead, that name testifies of God's salvation from death.

This is where I am going to; then they were beaten, and what happens next they prayed. They called upon the name of the LORD

Acts.4.24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them....

30 - Send your healing power; may miraculous signs and wonders be done through the name of your holy servant Jesus."
31 - After this prayer, the building where they were meeting shook, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. And they preached God's message with boldness.

***** they prayed to God
***** The resurrected Jesus is God's servant.
***** God does the healings and miracles through the name of Jesus

When Peter in Acts 3 told a crippled man to walk in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, what he had was the name of Jesus, the authority of Jesus to heal, and that's what he gave, he wasn't praying and when people were amazed he said, do you think it's our own power or holiness that made this man walk.
Our God has glorified his servant Jesus, who is holy and righteous, who brought us life, whom you killed but God raised him out from death and we witnessed this.

Acts.3.16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

Peter mentions three things
By faith in the name of Jesus
The name of Jesus
And faith that comes through Jesus

Not by prayer or praying to Jesus but Peter does tell us why the name as you continue to read the chapter.

Let's not go into that Peter mentions that Moses testifies like in the book of Hebrews, that Jesus is the prophet and that we must turn to God in repentance and wait for the second coming of the Messiah.

Peter was confessing that Jesus is the Messiah sent by God to bring us back to Him and the prove is that by the name of the Messiah, the authority of the Messiah the cripple was healed. But do realize who answered, it was God. God glorified Jesus, so you may even say they prayed to God in the name of Jesus, because God answered and glorified the name of Jesus. God glorifies his son Jesus, at and the mention of his name, Jesus Christ, prayers to Him, YHVH, are answered.

gohf:
Before you feel or get offended, this is what scripture says

Joel.2.32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the YHVH Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

This is the promise, the promise isn't to whoever calls on the name of Joshua or Jesus, and the Hebrew word translated as save is "malat" which to slip away, to escape, to perserve. And those whom will escape and be delivered are those YHVH calls.

This basis that calling upon the name of Jesus will save you is from misunderstanding Romans 10:3 and Acts 2:21, where Paul and Peter quote from Joel 2. Now I have treated this aspect in "is Jesus, Jehovah?"
https://www.nairaland.com/8318810/jesus-jehovah#133741879
https://www.nairaland.com/8318810/jesus-jehovah#133742431

You can read the thread the understand my indepth explanation that Jesus is not Jehovah, and the teaching in Acts 2 and Romans 10. But for this thread we will focus on Joel 2 and several other verses that speak on the authority of Christ.

Now you are never thought by the apostles that calling on the name of Jesus will save you, what you read in the new testament is to confess that Jesus is Christ and Lord.

This error has made many believe that just by calling upon Jesus they automatically will get saved. Irrespective of their sins and wickedness, it becomes an amazing quick get out of hell free card. But it's not, because it never was, you have to repent and obey God to be saved.

Before we go into Joel 2, let's read
Acts.4.12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

First we see that there isn't salvation in none other,
And that indeed no name existing differently under heaven given within humans which is necessary for our salvation.

So among the names of humans, there is only one name that reveals who saves and reveals salvation. And that name is Jesus which means Jehovah saves.
The issue here isn't about calling upon the name but about confessing the name of Jesus.
What is the difference?

There are a number of examples from scripture to show that to call upon the name of YHVH is prayer and associated with those who worship YHVH

Think about Elijah's story for instance, where he said in verse 21, if YHVH is God or if baal is, and what he suggested was
1Kgs.18.24 Then call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by setting fire to the wood is the true God!" And all the people agreed. (26) So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.


You may say, well you call upon Jesus and he answers, that Jesus is the one you made and accepted as your god. But what does God's word say

Before you feel or get offended, this is what scripture says

Joel.2.32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of YHVH Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

This is the promise, the promise isn't to whoever calls on the name of Joshua or Jesus, and the Hebrew word translated as save is "malat" which to slip away, to escape, to perserve. And those whom will escape and be delivered are those YHVH calls.

This basis that calling upon the name of Jesus will save you is from misunderstanding Romans 10:3 and Acts 2:21, where Paul and Peter quote from Joel 2. Now I have treated this aspect in "is Jesus, Jehovah?"
https://www.nairaland.com/8318810/jesus-jehovah#133741879
https://www.nairaland.com/8318810/jesus-jehovah#133742431

You can read the thread the understand my indepth explanation that Jesus is not Jehovah, and the teaching in Acts 2 and Romans 10. But for this thread we will focus on Joel 2 and several other verses that speak on the authority of Christ.

Now you are never thought by the apostles that calling on the name of Jesus will save you, what you read in the new testament is to confess that Jesus is Christ and Lord.

This error has made many believe that just by calling upon Jesus they automatically will get saved. Irrespective of their sins and wickedness, it becomes an amazing quick get out of hell free card. But it's not, because it never was, you have to repent and obey God to be saved.

.

PHCH, liked and shared, can't give more likes but🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 😁

It's long but worth reading, and obeying.
straight from God.

I also want you to consider that David who was anointed wasn't sent to kill Goliath but that doesn't undermine that we should be sent but states that there are good things we can do in our capacity provided to us by God's empowerment and they are in line with His will. But if we get used to going without hearing first that becomes an issue because even David was known to inquire of the Lord and maybe facing Goliath was what brought issues to his life maybe because David was glorified and praised because it did bring a great victory to Israel.


# Be Prophets of God and not Prophets of men or nations

#Be one who hears from God and not one who speaks from their own heart and desires

#Be sent by God before you go, don't be Balaam

#Do God's will and not my will

I would quote places you wrote from exactly but it's long 😁

"The difference is whether they were called and trained by the Lord Himself, or they were called, trained and ordained by men, having attended schools, classes, trainings, etc, set by men before their ordination."

Usually Apostles and Prophets are trained and raised by God, I know God can use men to teach future ministers also but even that is in God's hand.


I love this one, why didn't you highlight it
greater is He who occupies the Lord's messages than he who occupies the Lord's offices in this world.

God bless you. 😊

Prov.18.10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe.

And many believers are taught that the name of the LORD is Jesus. Now imagine when you read

Prov.18.10 The name of YHVH is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe.

There has to be a reason why Jesus who never claimed to be Jehovah God is seen as Jehovah God

Paul a Jew who knew YHVH asked, who are you Lord?
Acts.9.5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

Now Paul was later told that God had chosen him to know His will and to see His righteous one and to hear him and proclaim the message all over and what does Paul proclaim,
Acts.9.20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

Now how come some then say that Paul proclaims that Lord Jesus is God?

gohf:
Rom.10.11 - As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed. "
12 - Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They all have the same Lord, who generously gives his riches to all who ask for them.
13 - For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Where does scripture say verse 11; Paul had already quoted Isaiah 28:16 in Romans 9:33, Jesus the cornerstone whoever rests on him/believes him will not be put to shame.

Now, if I said the same Lord mentioned here is God, whom Jesus said sends rain on all, and like I showed already from Joel and Peter, that Romans 10:13 is referring to YHVH and not Jesus, Would you believe?

You know Jesus himself said, in Matt.7.22 On judgment day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' but he will deny those workers of Iniquity that he doesn't know them, if calling Jesus Lord will not save you then what will.

It is because salvation was never tied to calling Jesus Lord, but in confessing that God made Jesus Lord.

Who knows, they may even been calling Jesus Jehovah Jehovah and get denied all together because they deny the Father who is Jehovah and commit idolatry and iniquity by calling a man God. Instead of obeying Jesus and obeying God's commands.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Romans 10: 14 - 15

Now you would imagine that well we have to believe that Jesus is Lord, we have to call upon the name of the Lord, which is Jesus, but the Jews whom Paul is addresses and making quotes from scriptures would understand that the Lord we call upon his name is not Jesus, according to Joel is not Jesus.


Paul then quotes from Isaiah: Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I.” How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, “Your God reigns!” Isaiah 52: 6 - 7. Who is speaking here, Isaiah 52:4 The Adonai YHVH.

And then Paul quotes from Isaiah 53 which is about the Messiah, Isa.53.1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Not everyone welcomes the gospel, but faith comes by hearing what Christ said.

And we know Jesus Christ preached the gospel and revealed the Father, so through Jesus Christ the name of God is preached and proclaimed that men may be saved.

John.17.6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Rom.10.11 - As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed. "
12 - Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They all have the same Lord, who generously gives his riches to all who ask for them.
13 - For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Where does scripture say verse 11; Paul had already quoted Isaiah 28:16 in Romans 9:33, Jesus the cornerstone whoever rests on him/believes him will not be put to shame.

Now, if I said the same Lord mentioned here is God, whom Jesus said sends rain on all, like I showed already from Joel and Peter that Romans 10:13 is referring to YHVH and not Jesus, Would you believe?

You know Jesus himself said, in Matt.7.22 On judgment day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' but he will deny those workers of Iniquity that he doesn't know them, if calling Jesus Lord will not save you then what will.

It is because salvation was never tied to calling Jesus Lord, but in confessing that God made Jesus Lord.

Who knows, they may even been calling Jesus Jehovah Jehovah and get denied all together because they deny the Father who is Jehovah and commit idolatry and iniquity by calling a man God. Instead of obeying Jesus and obeying God's commands.

One of our major issues is the Greek language, it is clear these men were Hebrews, Jews and that they knew their language and Jesus spoke Hebrew so how come the claim that all the manuscripts are in greek.

Most of the lies we believe developed strong roots in about 300AD, where the corrupters of the truth wage war and won. Even in Acts the believers were called followers of the Way, and not Christians, a term that appears only once in all of the new testament in Acts 11:26.

How highly educated was Peter, John and the rest to write in Greek, you may say someone wrote for them seeing as they may not even be able to write in Hebrew but that would mean you don't understand how Jews raised their children, their strict educational upbringing and how they read scrolls in their synagogues. Many memorize texts as well.

Satan is subtle and subtle changes are not easy to notice till it completely corrupts perception of the truth.

That's why I will always say, the best gift we have is the Holy Spirit given to us by Jesus that can never be corrupted, to help us understand what is written and what is true.

Romans 10, Paul begins by expressing his desire for the Jewish people to be saved because they were clinging to the mosaic laws and rejecting God's way of righteousness, which is that Christ has fulfilled the purpose of the law and anyone who believes in me is made right with God, so righteousness that comes from faith in Jesus and not one from obeying the mosaic laws.

Then Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 30, which is unique in that Moses say that a time will come when YHVH will cleanse(circumcize) their hearts and they will obey the voice of YHVH and fulfill all the commandments, for this command is not difficult for it is close to your lips and heart so that you can do it. Meaning you will be enabled to obey easily. While Moses says he presents them life and death, but he says YHVH is life, choose Him, love and obey Him.

Why is this background important, well it's because of the corrupted version of the term "word of faith" the word is not from you but from God, the word, the message of faith we which is not positive confessions but Jesus Christ.

Even Paul wrote the word of faith: Rom.10.9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (NIV)

It is to accept what God has said and done.

So in your heart you believe what God did and with your mouth you confess it. And not in your heart you believe what you want God to do and with your mouth confess it

So to confess the word of testimony, the word of faith, is to testify that Jesus the son of God was raised by God from death to life.

Before we continue I want us to note and understand that because the Jews whenever they read the scriptures when they come to the phrase YHVH they say Adonai instead.

So a jew reading Psalm 110:1 would read as it in English as, The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." Meanwhile the text written states YHVH said to my adonai but you will hear is Adonai said to my adonai.

So when Jesus said, in Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42 but all three records which pose the same question from Jesus records after that question Jesus rebukes the teachers of the law, and I understand because when most people hear it, they ask themselves questions, kurios says to kurios, how many are there, is he speaking to himself but then the teachers say, o the second kurios is the son of David. So Jesus asks, how can he be David's Lord and son at the same time?

Notice that Jesus asks the question after he reveals that there is only one God whom we should love. To recognize God is also to recognize and acknowledge His son. If a king calls another king, it means that king is higher than he is and that's what David says here that YHVH gives us a Lord who becomes our Lord and ruler, so the Messiah isn't under David but superior to David who they believe was their greatest king.


Jesus was called son of David in the gospels, in reference to being the Messiah the one to inherit the throne of David forever but based on that he is higher than David and someone who exists before David, he can't actually be his biological son.

The teachers of the law then had a partial and mixed understanding of scripture and I hope we as well do not.

Now I mentioned Romans 10.13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Some believe that the name here is Jesus

Even Peter was the first person to quote from Joel 2 when he preached his first message recorded in Acts 2, Acts.2.21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.' (NKJV)

Quoting Joel 2:32 and anyone who calls on the name of JHVH will be saved.

Joel wrote before the verse Peter started quoting from
Joel.2.27 Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the YHVH your God And there is no other. My people shall never be put to shame.

There is only one YHVH God, now did Peter and Paul call Jesus YHVH?

Peter after saying Lord meaning YHVH speaks about God endorsing Jesus, infact Peter calls Jesus a man accredited and appointed by God. Acts 2:22
Then he mentions David's prophecies which are actually about Jesus and not David then Peter quotes from Psalm 110:1, The LORD said to my Lord, to prove that Jesus whom he said is at the right hand of God was prophecied by David to ascend to God's right hand. Now Peter gives this conclusion
Acts.2.36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Now from this conclusion is it LORD, YHVH, or Lord, Adonai that Peter refers to as Jesus.

Many times some have come at me saying that because I believe that Jesus is Lord therefore I believe that Jesus is God and me saying Jesus is NOT God is a contradiction. And after listening to some of them, I came to understand that they believe that LORD is the same as Lord. That Jehovah is Adonai, now ofcourse our Jehovah is Lord but Lord is a title, YHVH is God's name.

You can use someone's title in place of their name. O Apostle, good day Prophet, my Lord, my King, your Majesty. Titles of leadership and rules. But Apostle is not someone's name, it's a title (someone can bear it as a name, after
all 'kings' is also some people's name)


Peter wrote God made Jesus Lord and Messiah and continues as Luke writes,
Acts.2.38 - Peter replied, "Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts.2.39 - This promise is to you and to your children, and even to the Gentiles--all who have been called by the Lord our God."

Turn to God he baptized in the name of Jesus, receive the promise given by the Lord, YHVH, our God.

Now to Romans 10

Teaching us how to pray, Jesus said, Holy is your name. Not Holy is my name or the name. God's name is sanctified, is hallowed, Matthew 6:9

What does it mean to pray? It means to call upon the name of the Lord.

The first time we come across this in the bible is in Gen.4.26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh. At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.

That means from the beginning there were those who called upon God, so when God said to Moses that he didn't reveal himself or appear by his name YHVH to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It means there is a purpose by which God reveals himself in that name and there was no need to do so for Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. And I believe that purpose is salvation.

God reveals himself as YHVH to save the people of Israel from bondage, and I believe from Enosh, people called on the name to be saved. With this understanding this brings us to the book of Romans and what is written in chapter 10.

The question is, is Jesus Yahweh/JHVH?

Now though some go from believing that Jesus is a god to believing that Jesus is God and even as far as proclaim that Jesus is Jehovah, NONE of the first true apostles nor Christ Jesus himself proclaims that Jesus is Jehovah. So the simple answer is NO. Jesus is NOT Jehovah and he is NOT Yahweh, he is NOT YHVH.

One of the basis of the believe that Jesus is God is that he says or uses the phrase, "I AM" which was recorded in Greek eimi, like the example from John 8:58 before Abraham was, I am. And because "I am" is seen as the name of God they assume that well Jesus says "I am" so Jesus is Jehovah God.

The issue with this is that, does it mean every usage of "I am" means "God" or does it mean "Jehovah" but we know that is not true so why is the case different here.
Well when God introduced Himself to Moses He said, I am that I am, but God didn't stop there in Exodus 3:13-15, but goes on and says, tell them I am Jehovah God, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob. Not three gods but one and the same God, which Jesus never claimed to be, Jesus only said I existed before Abraham and that's the truth.

If "I am" was God's name, in Exod.6.3, God would have said, "I am" but he said, "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as God Almighty, though I did not reveal my name, YHVH, to them."

Personally I believe it's sad that due to misunderstanding the third commandments many Jews didn't say the name of God and even banned it from being said but that doesn't mean Jesus took a roundabout part of proclaiming that he is YHVH- Jehovah.

In that same chapter 8 of John
John.8.54 Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.

Who do the Jews claim is their God, it's YHVH. Now in Hebrew yod is Y or J in English and waw or vav is W or V. So YHWH or JHVH is the same I want us to understand that.

The question is, is Jesus YHVH? Jesus means Jehovah is salvation which is also Joshua, when translated directed from Hebrew and Jesus when translated from Greek. Now neither his name, be it spelling or meaning, is YHVH, Jehovah. So why then do people believe that Jesus is Jehovah?

Let's go into some of their "scripturally proofs" that make some believe that Jesus is Jehovah?

Let us not be deceived, the Christ many are worshipping as god is the falsechrist, the antichrist.

Be purified by the truth 🙏

God is good, He has done me well oh my soul rise up and praise Jehovah

God is good all the time and All the time God is good 😊

tctrills:
Are you trying to be controversial? You say that you know you have done something wrong yet you are not aware of it? That statement makes no sense sir. To know something is to be aware of it.
Again, you speak about a heart problem and not a head one. Please explain?
Then you gave the example with lying and you said the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want.
I am yet to see an adult who doesn't know it is wrong to tell lies. Every time I have told lies, I was fully aware that I was in the wrong.

not being controversial sir. Can't a person know yet pretend not to know, that's why men are liars deceiving themselves.

Paul writes they know in their hearts, yet those same hearts are very wicked as if blinded by their own greed.
Know something is wrong and knowing you have done something wrong are they the same, be honest with yourself. How many times have you admitted ah I have done something wrong.

You say to know something is to be aware of it, awareness is perception, understanding. Haven't you ever written an exam and later be like ah and I know this thing o, maybe because you didn't understand the question or you forgot.

Realization is like understanding, you may know something but you do not realize nor understand the full implications of it. Didn't Adam and Eve know they should not eat, why is it that after eating they realized their own stupidity.

Knowledge comes because a person is told or they heard, but realization is when you become aware or understand. Ever heard someone say I have heard I have heard yet they don't understand what they have heard.


Does it still make no sense to know something and yet not understand it?

Has your heart never told you you have done wrong or you felt you have done wrong but you don't understand exactly what you did wrong. Your conscience never pricked you before and until you see that what you have done is wrong you may never admit it to be wrong.

So knowledge being in someone is the same as intelligence given to them or a book given to you, if you don't realize it, it's because your eyes is closed to it. So you don't realize nor are you aware of what you have.

"Again, you speak about a heart problem and not a head one. Please explain?"

Let me use what you said about yourself, because if I go on about "I am yet to see an adult who doesn't know it is wrong to tell lies".
You are assuming everyone is like that, you haven't actually dealth with people that convince themselves that a lie is true, till they forget it was a lie in the first place so slowly they kill their conscience and their heart.

"Every time I have told lies, I was fully aware that I was in the wrong." Your case is better, you might find that strange but it is. You are aware because you realize and admit, you understand what you did.

"the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want."

Something is wrong because there is bad result of it
Something is right and good because it results in good

"So can a person know something is wrong and be blind to it at the same time,.."

So a person can know something is wrong because of how they feel inside of them and yet they are not aware of what it is.

There's this thing I call rationalization of evil, when you come across certain people and you tell them this you are doing is wrong and they don't admit, usually it's because they are not seeing that it is wrong. That's where the heart and head problem comes in.

When a person's mind defends and denies their own conscience and heart.

A new heart and a renewed mind. There is knowledge in the heart and knowledge in the head.

In their hearts like Paul said they show that they know what is right and wrong through their actions.

Now a person's mind processes who they decide to be, to refuse their conscience and heart and end up being foolish or to look and admit what it says. A fool says in their heart their is no God, because they deny and refuse to listen to the voice of reason within them.


When God makes something he instructs it to do good and that instruction is in you, expect the person because crafty chooses ignorance and the like. The Hebrews define the soul has emotions, feelings and intelligence and that's what Adam became and obviously humans in general now though they don't have the spirit of God, the wisdom of God in them. They still have the intelligence from God. Revelation comes to give instructions provide correction.

To say a person knows or has knowledge is to admit God formed us, and though we form in a womb, the original intent still remains. A person either becomes aware or blind to the instructions put in them.

Why do you think God judges the heart, because he put a conscience in everyone even before anyone becomes born again and has the Spirit of God in them.

Jesus made a statement anyone who does my Father's will can verify that my words are from Him.

Now this statement isn't about being educated to read a book, it's about how they react to their own hearts, to the intelligence the breath that is in them that will return back to God when they die.

So you see that those who react positively and struggle with their nature, meaning they are aware that what they do is wrong, they agree, they become more willing to go to Jesus. You know Jesus said my Father brings them to me.

God can write, He wrote the 10 commandments but He didn't write a whole book, Jesus also didn't write or give us a book, the Holy Spirit was given to teach us all things.


Honestly I hope you understand because will saying more help.

Okay how about this you realize you have done something wrong like lying because you still have a conscience and intact one, but then someone who doesn't even if they know, can you say they still have one? No, that doesn't mean they never had one, so though they know they can't realize it's wrong because what would help them do so, is probably lost and dead.

tctrills:
Let's start from your last response. You are right when you say Realizing and admitting that what you are doing is wrong is different from knowing right from wrong. But then you also wrote that until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong. Not realizing wrong means that such a person doesn't know wrong and right. It's just a play of words.
Now to the first part, you seem to be saying that the holy men of old received revelation from God.
If so, what was revealed to them, the laws of Moses or the higher laws that Christ taught?

Yes they didn't realize, they were brought up to do and practice certain things which were evil as though they were good, it's kind of like blindness. If someone doesn't see something wrong as wrong they cant know that it is wrong. So the basis of my statement is that it was a heart problem not necessarily a head one.
E.g a person lies to another to get what they want, the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want so there mindset is that what they have done is right. So for them to realize they have to become aware of what they did that was wrong. So apart from perception that comes from intelligence we have revelation. So while we can know from our conscience and feelings that we have hurt someone at times we may not even be aware of it, speak less of knowing.

So can a person know something is wrong and be blind to it at the same time, yes because they are focused on the benefit. They are not ignorant. Like a person who knows the truth and bears false witness against another. They know they twisted the truth but they don't realize what they have done is evil because they justify on their standard of how it benefits them.

Realization is a person coming to terms and not denying that what they do is wrong.

God has one basic command which is love, be kind to others be good, don't be proud and envious and covetous be content. Adam and Eve were not content, and so over the years men because of their covetousness and lack of contentment killed, stole, like Cain killed Abel, and the like. The greed and desire to want more. Cain for instance was told by God that the desire in his heart was wrong, there was sin and he ignored it and ended up killing his brother. God told Noah he was going to flood the earth and for a 100+yrs Noah was said to not only build but also preach to his generation.

And to answer your question what was revealed to them? It was salvation the way back to God, from Noah's ark to Abraham's Isaac and the chosen nation Israel to the prophets the basis of the revelation was to reveal to men the wrong way they are going and the way back and the person who can bring them back, the son of God Jesus.

In the book of Job it says that God may cause sufferings to a man so as to speak to him and teach him the wrong of his ways, especially if such a man doesn't pay attention to the dreams given to him as warnings.

sonmvayina you answered two people the same words but adding ode and olodo to one, why is that 😲😅

tctrills:
Your short answer is that these men of old followed the ways God through their intelligence and not through revelation?
Are you saying that with just our intelligence and without revelation, man can discover the one true God, know his ways and serve him?

Your last point is that until the coming of the law, men did not know right from wrong. But then what happened to Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit?

first off all like I wrote, God, "he gave them the intelligence" and I also stated that God revealed to them, "if God didn't rebuke men when he see they are wrong or about to go wrong they won't know"

So your first question is NO, that's not my answer, and also to your second question as well.


For your third question I wrote, "until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong" and not like you understood it to be that men didn't know right from wrong and that's why we have intelligence and know what pain is.

Realizing and admitting that what you are doing is wrong is different from knowing right from wrong and besides the fruit Adam and Eve ate did give that to them, it just brought them death. God already told Adam what was wrong to do. God's word and revelation is what gives us the ability to discern but if man doesn't listen, it is akin to rejecting wisdom and remaining a fool.

Nnamdipapa:
Pastors have used the same fear to enrich themselves.

Hell kor, hell ni.

If you like, continue living in bandage.

law enforcers have also used prison threats to enrich themselves but you who has never seen a prison does that mean it is not real.

danvon:
Because the very idea of hell is unrealistic...

Christianity is a slave religion, it was marketed for slaves who were suffering and being oppressed by their masters...

The slaves didn't have the strength or courage to physically fight back and free themselves, they couldn't take proper revenge, so they turned to psychological revenge...

That is how the idea of heaven and hell originated, the slaves would enjoy riches and power (they never had) in heaven while their oppressors would burn and scream in hell for all eternity.

Only a bitter, frustrated and petty soul would invent such a place.

Jesus himself forgave his enemies with his dying breath, that illustrates how noble Jesus was. He was very far from Christianity.

Is it okay that you psychologically and logically analyzed the origin of hell and heaven but leave out if not justice should exist or not.

You claim the idea of hell is unrealistic and you are right, your idea of hell is very unrealistic.

One you claim it was marketed to slaves? What then did those who "market" it to them gain? Loyal slaves? Do you think men are all fools because they suffer?


"The slaves didn't have the strength or courage to physically fight back and free themselves, they couldn't take proper revenge, so they turned to psychological revenge" this shows you lack knowledge of history, do you know how many times slaves has fought, how some have won and some have lost. Even at the heart of some of those victories were as a result of the very book called bible where the Christianity you mention as a slave religion actually brought liberation to a lot.

Now because people use the truth for a lie doesn't mean the truth is a lie, even common sense would tell you that.

While would, "Only a bitter, frustrated and petty soul would invent such a place."

It is only those who enjoy the benefits of oppression that would feel this way, why? Is it a crime to cry out for justice, to wish for it, to dream for it but you not only deny their cries but you call them bitter, frustrated and petty soul. Only a hopeless person in bondage can write such words as you have.

And though you claim such nonsense as it being a slave religion, you say Jesus forgave his enemies isn't that also the lie slave traders used to surpress the cries for justice.

And note Jesus didn't forgive his enemies, he forgave those who were ignorant. YHVH said seat till I crush all your enemies till they become your footstoll.

You think the Jews were forgiven go and read what Jesus said to them and what occured in 70AD, you think Judas was forgiven. How you seat and assume that punishment for wickedness is unrealistic can only come from a heart who is hopeless towards such and as sided with the benefits of wickedness

LordReed:
Because it isn't real and just a psychological trick to keep you invested in the religion. Islam has the threat of killing you, Christianity has the threat of hell, all in a bid to make sure you don't leave.

if police offers extorts from you by threatening you with jail does that mean jails and prisons arent real?

cc Queengee

Queengee:
When I was young used to be very scared of hell especially when in church and the preacher narrated the horrors of hell, but now things have changed . I don't know maybe because eyes has seen many things in three decades of my existence, really don't get scared of hell fire anymore , anytime someone or pastors talk about it it sounds like every other takes to me, I think something is wrong with me, does anyone here now feel the same way ? Men of God in the house please how can I go back to my former self and start believing hell is real

believing hell is real won't save anyone.
Instead of believing hell is real, believe God and his son are real, repent and turn to them and believe in the kingdom of God.

The fear of God is what we need not to fear of hell, because the fear of hell will not save us but at least the fearful reverence towards God will give us wisdom that saves us, which is the gospel God's power and wisdom to save us.

So instead of going back to your former self why not take a step and become who God wants you to be in Christ because we can't save ourselves from hell even if we want to and try to, it's Jesus whom God sent that can save those God sends to him.

And if you are of God you don't need to be afraid of the coming judgement or hell do you? You will be built up and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

tctrills:
Noah, Abraham, Melchizedek, and the rest all lived before the law was given to Moses. What laws did they obey?

God YHVH has been our judge since before the mosaic laws and even for those who did not have the mosaic law

Rom.2.14 - Even when Gentiles(the uncircumcised), who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong.
Rom.2.15 - They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right.

To Noah and Abraham who were recorded as righteous, Noah among the wicked men of his day probably didn't go around hurting people and was chosen to save lives. Abraham believed God, and showed himself to be compassionate to interceed and intervene when Sodom, were lot who left Abraham was, was under threat of destruction.

So even though God hadn't written his law into the hearts of men, he gave them the intelligence and conscience to be able to tell what is evil and wickedness, because we all feel pain and know what we hate so why do so to others as well. But many of their hearts insisted on going for their own pleasures.

Abram said, Sarai say you are my sister because I fear that the men of this place do not fear God and may kill me to have you. God had to rebuke Pharaoh who knew what was wrong but was ignorant of his own mistakes, not because there was an established law in that regard but because good men have said it was wrong to take what belonged to others. Remember Job who lived before Moses.

Joseph learnt of his Father's anger towards Reuben and didn't sleep with Potiphars wife.

Jacobs sons killed men because of their anger they claimed was justified but Jacob saw it as wrong and evil what they did, so you see that until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong, that's why Paul explained that the laws reveal our sins. So if God didn't rebuke men when he see they are wrong or about to go wrong they won't know and some even when they get to know they still disobey and continue anyway.

Janosky:

Nah so their brains dey function to deceive them.
The last sentence "was Theos" is the last sentence of Acts 28:6 & John 1:1.

Theos is not capitalized when that being referenced in the verse is not God Almighty, for instance Psalm77:13 & Acts 28:6, Acts 12:21-23

okay just looking at the Greek text of Acts 28:6 where theon is used so as to refer to Paul as a god meanwhile in Acts 12:22 theos is used for Herod to reference that his voice was like god's. I have tried to explain here to some of them that theos in John 1:1 was John writing that the word belong to God, that is, the word was God's and is still God's for Jesus is God's word but they insist theos/theou and theon like used later in Acts 12:23 are both the same.


I believe most translator kept with the capitalization for Jesus because the commonly accepted belief is that Jesus is God and to oppose it is heresy and which major organization would do such without expecting to be persecuted or spoke against.


I heard of a Greek text translator centuries ago who was manipulated into adding Father, word and Holy Ghost into 1John5:7 whereas his first translation lacked it as he didn't find any Greek text that contained the phrase, but he later added the phrase as insisted and manipulated by the church.

So people being deceived is because we forget that the truth like every valuable thing isn't easy to get.

ThatWriterBoy:
This makes sense sir. Thank you.

we thank God 🥂

There are many who are offended by the truth, so they twist, try to explain it away or find fault in it, and said among them are all those who once claimed or still claim to believe it

Matt.11.6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

Are you offended by the truth because it doesn't meet your expectations?

Hallelujah