₦airaland Forum

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

This is the attitude of one influenced by the Spirit of God, seeing the good. It's what we all need to do more often, see God. Seeing the invisible, not looking at the things that are seen.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

We need to learn like Paul to know our audience. It helped him to be able to gain many more. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles, this simply means that he was sent to the gentiles, PRIMARILY. He was not sent to ONLY the gentiles. Here is the passage he is referring to.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Observe that he was sent to the gentiles, the authorities/kings, and to the children of Israel. Every disciple of Jesus is sent into all the world, though we all have our niches as it were. We are all to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Paul never discriminated or shied away from preaching to anybody, whether barbarian or greek, or man or woman, or jew or gentile, he was a debtor to all.
like i said, and like Paul has said, he had a niche, a primary audience, the gentiles. That's how the body is, everyone has their part to play. You have someone to whom you are the chiefest to preach to him/her. Your preaching would save the fellow like the click on a mouse, more than tens of great sermons by great evangelists. Know your audience, however, preach the gospel in season and out of season. Whether at your niche or not. Notice that Paul preached to many many jews in the book of Acts. In fact, his first port of call was usually the jews in the synagogues. Then he talks about magnifying his office. This is a belief in what he was doing, far from being ashamed of ministering to the gentiles. Most jews had no dealings with gentiles. they would not even enter the house of a gentile or eat with one. The discrimination between the jews and the gentiles was high. But took his ministry with passion and pride. He was not highminded or cocky or denigrating about it. Some people are proud and boastful of their achievements , then they come to quote Paul, that's wrong.

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

One salient point i want us to see here is that Paul actually says "I might save some of them". Now, we live out some ignorant humility that states that salvation is all God, He does not need anybody, does not need any money, the work of God will go on irrespective. these are some nice and pious sounding lines, sorry if i did not put them so nicely. These lines are not found in the Bible. God works in partnership with man, that is what He has always wanted since Adam. Someone has to plant, and water, and then God does His part. Jesus talked about men LABOURING, and His disciples entering into the labour. He talked about reaping and harvesting, and the labourers being few. We have a part to play in the salvation of people. Give your faith, your praying, your time, your presence, your money whatever for the salvation of people including yourself. Paul did things so that people might be saved.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, seeing the good in the obviously terrible situation of the Israelites. The Israelites are currently blinded and cast away, and now is the time of the gentiles. At this time, God commands men everywhere to repent.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
god gave Israel some special privilege from the time of say Abraham to Jesus. Since then, we have had more time, more than 2013 years time of the gentiles, special privilege to the gentiles. how well have you taken advantage of this time. Are you like the Israelites who perished in the wilderness or in sin during the time of the Israelites. Time does not wait for any one, take advantage.

double post

Mark Miwerds: Oyedepo's book is contrary to God's promise. For instance, you say that in his book he does not tell you that tithing works all of the time. This of coruse, is contrary to God's promise and malign's God's character.

In Malachi, God said, "Prove me." How is it "proving God" when one tithes and He does not fulfill His promise that He gave for those who tithe? Such a god who does not always keep His promises is not to be trusted.

The God of the Bible is faithful to keep His promises.

Get Oyedepo's book? No thank you. Why would I want a book that tells me that God requires tithes of His people? Oyedepo is revealed to be a liar just trying to get more money out of the gullible masses through the sales of his book.

You need help, you are angry and i wonder at what. Anger rests in the bosom of fools, dump the tension. It is not contrary to God's promise, just putting things in proper perspective. You do not task a verse in isolation at the neglect of other scriptures and factors. Shows the poor level of your biblical scholarship.
One, you are being disingenuous and ambiguous. Like when the pharisees came to tempt Jesus about taxes. If Oyedepo says "tithing works all the time", you will criticize. And if he says "tithing alone does not work all the time", you will still criticize him. Your aim is already clear, no need to hide under some atheistic question. God's Word is not a magic book where you find magic words that work all the time. God's promises are yea and amen, however they are all conditional.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Thought patterns like yours will make void the promises of Jesus in the above passages as well. How you do not see this is an indicator of the spirit in charge.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Has God cast away Israel? Obviously NOT, God forbid. Yes, blindness in part is happened to them and so on and so forth, but the Kingdom of God suffers violence, and the violent takes it BY FORCE. Paul was such a man, and so should be every believer. We should not be limited by negativity or even negative BIBLE prophecies. The love of many shall wax cold, evil men and seducers wax worse and worse, many shall be deceived, God will have mercy on who He will have mercy etc. Paul the apostle was an Israelite, yet blindness or slumber did not happen to him. He put his body under so as not to be cast away. He ran and fought and kept and finished, he laboured. So also did 120 disciples and about 500 that saw the Lord after resurrection. God said He had left Israel desolate(Matthew 23), yet Jews that believed got saved. 3000 on the day of Pentecost, another 5000 later and more daily. You have no excuse. In Acts 8, all these believers were scattered and only the apostles remained in Jerusalem, but by the end of Acts, thousands of Jews had believed. They did not wait despondently or give up. They took it by force, as it were. Nobody should sit in darkness or unbelief or unrighteousness, and be claiming some Bible verse or prophecy as his reason for not being saved.
Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

God has not cast away His people, He will never. Yet, some choose not to repent and some do. He FOREKNEW them all, yet some perished and were condemned. It is automatic that if God foreknew, they must be predestinated to go to heaven. That is the way some folks interpret this verse. (Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. )
God foreknowing you has little or nothing to do with your repentance. In very fact, God's omniscience and omnipotence demands that He foreknows everybody. God has not cast us of, it is we that have cast Him off. His promise is to NEVER leave or forsake us, but we often decide to leave and forsake Him. We neglect Him. How shall we escape, when we neglect Him? He is not a possessive spirit like a demon who will chase you by fire by force. He can be grieved and He honours your free will.
Wot ye not what the Scripture saith? Whether you are a jew or a gentile, you are expected to know what the scripture says. And we know he was referring to OT scripture as he goes ahead to quote from 1Kings19. Jesus told the people of His time "Have you not read?" "Search the scriptures" "Man shall live by the Word of God". This is the emphasis that Christ and the early christians placed on the Word. They did not jettison it or say it was useless and irrelevant. you know, that is what new age believers say today. They want to have us believe that the OT scriptures is useless and unprofitable. Even the gospels(Matthew to John) are being included now. Paul expected the Romans to know. Wot ye not, Know ye not what the scriptures say? Can the same be asked you without offence and some fight and tripe about legalism or being under the law?

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

the remnant is part of the elect. The elect is simply the believer. The believers or elect are in every age/generation. It is not some 144,000 somewhere. Paul said, AT THIS PRESENT TIME. John wrote to the elect lady and the elect sister, Peter wrote to elect strangers in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. The elect are not some esoteric preserve somewhere. The elect are those who are elected/chosen/selected by grace through faith. Every believer is elect. There were jews that believed, and therefore were the elect at Paul's "present time".

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This is foundational, not exclusive. Grace has to be the foundation, not works. The OT covenant system failed as it was based on works as foundation. The believer's life is likened to a house being built, the wise man built his house on a Rock. The foundation in our building has to be grace, not works. Works come in later, like the windows and the roof are not the foundation of a house. You do not put your furniture on the plot of land before the foundation, that would be ludicrous. When you come to God with works, to be accepted or justified, it will be as filthy rags. You have to, MUST come by grace(which came by Jesus Christ Jn1.17). By grace are you saved through faith, not of works. Salvation is foundational, after that comes works.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Israel has not obtained what he seeketh for. Thought everyone that seeketh findeth. Well, here is one reason why not everyone that seeketh will find, UNBELIEF. Remember chapter 9v32?
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. ;
Israel did not obtain because they sought it not by faith. Talking about "OBTAINING", is that even possible? Well, the passage talks about obtaining. So it is possible. The election hath obtained. It didn't just jump on them by chance or some predestined magic. They obtained it, by grace through faith. That same grace has appeared unto all men, it is available to all men. Who is going to obtain? The rest were blinded.
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

God gave them the spirit of slumber. Why? They reaped what they sowed. It wasn't just some divine will tagged on them. It is so till today, their eyes are darkened. Many of them are still expecting a messiah and rejecting the Messiah. The gentiles too, who are the owners of the time as it were, many are in the same trap of slumber and darkness. They are also in the dark because of unbelief, because they have rejected and closed the door to the Saviour. this repeats itself in anybody, race and generation. Many unbelieving parents close the door and limit their descendants and children from hearing the gospel. Such a generation will reap from the ungodliness and unbelief of their parents and ancestors, just like Israel. Some people had been to the likes of the Communist countries and the Arabic countries in the past. They were rejected and persecuted. Because of them, many of their descandants lay claim to not having heard the gospel. Never hearing the name Jesus in their lives. They are suffering from the unbelief and negligence of their ancestors. It is just like countries where their leaders are corrupt and nonchalant and wasteful, their descendants are going to pay dearly for it. Their descendants are not being educated, they will suffer poverty, corruption, terrorism and its attendant wickednesses in time to come. May the cup of judgement not get full on your head.

Pastor Kun: And since when did Oyedepo become an authority or even knowledgeable on the word of God Between does he give a refund for those the tithing doesn't work for?

That thing "BTW" is not between, it is 'by the way'. You are always spitting out presumption and arrogant ignorance.

Zikkyy: So i must pay before i know the hidden covenants of blessings? na wa o!



My position remain the same. the pastoral promise is that tithe works all the time. but it appears to be working for pastors only. The reason why other tithers (& zikkyy) need to know about the hidden covenants of blessings.

Simply get the book. There are different ways to have access to a book. It affords you the opportunity of seeing things for yourself instead of making bland general statements that cannot be proven. i have given you a popular pastor and a small book(meaning you don't have to search too far or long) that refutes and negates your unverifiable claim that pastors preach that tithing works all the time.

debosky: I have read the context and I understand that aspect well, yet you failed to answer my question - is the origin of the devoted thing important or is only the fact that it is devoted important?

What do you think?

What is the ‘best’? Is 10% the best? Why not 20%, or 50%? There is nothing subjective about giving according to the need - if someone needs food, and you love others like you love yourself, you’ll give them the same quality of food you would eat, same for shelter, clothing etc. as you are able to. There is no need to mandate a set percentage in order to meet the need, as the percentage may either be insufficient or in excess of the need. Those who can give more should give more, those who can only give a little should give their little.

A steady 10% is the best of the TWO i.e whether 10% or whatever you feel like. Most people would rather have a steady source of income than hoping that someone else gives them whatever they feel like. To be subjective is to be based on personal opinion and feeling. That is the kind of giving you are pushing for, right?
Those who can give more should give more, those who can only give a little should give their little. This is also exactly what happens when each person gives a tenth as God has prospered him.

You have made a great leap here - there is no talk in the OT about temple workers getting the ‘best’, neither is there any association between 10% and the best - God simply mandated their provision (and also for the poor) from the tithe because he did not give them land to get produce from. I am not against church workers ‘getting the best’ (whatever that means) but there is nothing that stipulates that 10% is the best.

Num 18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
Reading through the Pentateuch, it would be difficult not to agree that the temple workers got the best. The people were expected to give their best to the Lord, which is of course through the temple workers.

Fine - if that’s what you want to call it. If tithe teachers taught it as a ‘proven stable way’ to sustain the church workers and also the poor (not pastors alone) - not as a compulsory requirement that will bring devourers if you disobey - then I am sure there would be little or no opposition.

i've always called it that, its not new. The temple workers and the poor are not in the same category BTW. It seems you are trying to equate them, forgive me if i am wrong. i understand the thread is about tithes and offerings, if you have a word for the poor, kindly state it in an alms thread.

Sir, in order to evaluate what is required/acceptable, we look at the instruction not the practice. If the law individuals go beyond the law’s requirements, it does not change what was required by the law. Regardless of what the Pharisee did, the reference is to the law describing the requirement, not the action of a group of people known to be hypocritical and fond of creating their own rules to enforce on others.

Debo, you said it has to be based on what is written oh. Now, you are saying what is instructed.
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
All scripture remain profitable for instruction. We have seen the practice of Abraham, Jacob and the pharisee. None of their form of tithe was said to be rejected or unfit. It is not beyond the requirements of the law to give tithe of all.

No - if the law goes into detail defining only land-based agricultural produce for Israel, there is no basis to extend it beyond the definition, even if others chose to go beyond this definition by their practice. God was very specific in what he said was Holy to Him. If God said a tithe of all is mine without specifying from the land, your argument would be tenable.

But there is no definition anywhere. There is no passage that states "ONLY". If we read the Leviticus passage in context, it is observable that God was not placing limitations on giving, in fact He was making sure people did not shy away from giving. Every devoted thing was holy unto God, there is no specific as such. to be holy is simply to be separate, to be set apart or devoted. When something is holy to God, it simply means it is devoted to God, set apart to or belongs to God. Leviticus says the tithe of the land and of the animals belong to God(paraphrased). No one is to tamper with it or claim it. It is not saying or limiting that ONLY the tithe of the land and animals belong to God. Read the whole chapter for some context please. The chapter is talking about ability to redeem or buy back things set apart to God.
If it is a singular vow, it states the amount to be paid. If it is a clean animal, it states.
Lev 27:9 And if it be a beast, whereof men bring an offering unto the LORD, all that any man giveth of such unto the LORD shall be holy.
Lev 27:10 He shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good: and if he shall at all change beast for beast, then it and the exchange thereof shall be holy.

If it is a house that is sanctified or made holy or vowed, and is to be redeemed, it states the process. It also states the process for fields or land. Here is an 'ONLY' verse by the way.
Lev 27:26 Only the firstling of the beasts, which should be the LORD's firstling, no man shall sanctify it; whether it be ox, or sheep: it is the LORD's.
The firstling is God's already, it is tautological as it were, and borders on a lack of logic to vow or sanctify it. It is already God's, so the person is to look for something else(that is actually his) to vow or devote.

Lev 27:28 Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD.
This is like the summary of the chapter BTW. They could not sell or buy back a devoted or holy thing. There were conditions attached in some cases like giving both the thing and another, or adding a fifth. This is what the passage is all about, not about definitions and limitations of tithes. All the tithe was/is holy or set apart or belongs to God, therefore it cannot be redeemed. Then it goes on to give the similar clauses for redemption as given throughout the passage. One was to add a fifth, the other(animals) was to give both the one to be changed and its substitute.
the passage is not aimed at saying one must ONLY give one form of tithe and not the other. The passage is about redemption of devoted or vowed or holy things. Agric produce is not the only holy thing. Holy is simply set apart, consecrated to God. A human being could be set apart, a house could be anything and everything could be. Please read the whole chapter, perhaps in a easy to read version. All this talk about ONLY agric produce being holy is plain myopic and borne out of ignorance, if not deceit.

There is no reference to ‘major economy’ here - that is pure speculation on your part. God was not ambiguous in his statement:

A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.

Sir, interpreting this as major economy is simply incorrect - if God said from the land then he meant from the land. Let’s refrain from speculating unnecessarily. Whether they were fishermen or not is not the issue - it is what God required and that was solely from the land.

Pure speculation? Are you kidding me. Any Bible student knows the major occupation of the Israelites. We know what is used to measure the riches of the average Isrealite. Again, The Bible student knows that the Israelites were not primarily fishermen. You'd hardly see a record of an Israelite fisherman in the OT. This is fact, not speculation. You can do a word search for "fish"for instance in the OT.
Gen 46:32 And the men are shepherds, for their trade hath been to feed cattle; and they have brought their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have.
The average Israelite is a cattle rearer like the hausa man as it were, from Abraham to anybody. When God promises them blessing, it is usually in pictures of agric produce. It is said that Solomon's people in all his wisdom needed training about the seas.
1Ki 9:27 And Hiram sent in the navy his servants, shipmen that had knowledge of the sea, with the servants of Solomon.
Num 11:5 We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlic:
Neh 13:16 There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem.

The possession of the Israelites was primarily CanaanLAND. They gave tithes of their possession.
Deu 28:3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
Deu 28:4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Deu 28:5 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
Deu 28:11 And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers to give thee.
Deu 28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
The curses were also agric produce centred and their bodies. Their punishment and reward was primarily about that, or withdrawing rain(primarily agric inclined). The last resort was captivity. most of Jesus'teachings and analogies were also in this line. that's what they majorly were. It is just some years ago that the Industrial revolution changed things. This is verifiable history, not speculation.

I agree with everything you said except for the bold text. The Israelites did not tithe as acknowledgement, they did so to comply with a law. Even if they had a poor harvest or didn't feel particularly blessed, they still had to tithe. If something belongs to the Lord, then you don’t have a choice but to do it. Appreciation is by definition a voluntary act - Levitical tithe is not voluntary, it is mandated.

Thought i was talking about christians? However, it is inherent in these passages that they were to bring their gifts and tithes rejoicing and appreciating God.
Deu 12:11 Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:
Deu 12:12 And ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.

I agree 100% - what happens instead is that people spend all their energy trying to ‘justify’ tithes as compulsory/required. Let's move beyond trying to justify tithes and focus on meeting the need - both of ministers and of the poor.

If people keep stating school boy errors about tithes and any part of God's Word, we can remind them of the truth more perfectly. Everyone does not have equal light or perfect knowledge. i do not force people to do things that i have light or understanding on, but i can very well explain on that light, though everyone may not get it.

Mark Miwerds: You don't get it, do you?

God did not say "Prove me, and I might pour out blessings." Nor did He say "Prove me, and I will pour out a little bit of a blessing."

No, He said, "Prove me, and I will pour out so many blessings you will not have room enough to receive it."

Prove Him in what? He clearly tells us what to prove Him in. "Bring ye all the tithes into mine House." God promised to bless the tithe overabundantly for tithing... not tithing plus.

Is God a liar? Your doctrine sure makes Him to be one.

i think you are the one that does not get it. Your personal experience is not a standard or yardstick for all of us to follow. God's Word is the yardstick, and it is His promises believers hold on to, not individual experiences. You guys are using the exact unbelieving tactics of unbelievers, yet you cannot see it. The same yawn can be made for any new testament promise. Is God a liar?
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Zikkyy: so what's the missing ingredient? be kind enough to share na, be your brother's keeper. cos most tithers are not aware that tithing alone will not do the job. they tithe, sow seed, give offering yet not show.

Go get the book, its a small book. thought you initially said it is pastoral gospel that states that tithing works all the time. The Bible is not a magic book, neither is any verse, OT or NT.

Zikkyy: What are you saying? that tithing will not always yield the desired result? that God is selective in blessing tithers? is this not contrary to the pastoral gospel that tithing works all the time?

Don't know where you got such gospel, hopefully it is not a figment of the antitither's imagination. Oyedepo for instance does.kt tell you that tithing works all the time. Read one little book he wrote "The hidden covenants of blessings". He says in EVERY chapter of the book that tithing alone is not enough.

Mark Miwerds: That "sure Word of Prophecy" declares that God will bless in overabundance for tithing.

Does it not?

Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

So, I ask again, where is this overabundance of blessing that my mother was supposed to get for tithing? The blessing of seeing pastors get richer while she continued to struggle in poverty month to month?

Youre simply rehashing what you just said. Jesus said give and it will be given unto you good measure, whatever you ask in my name will I do, he that asketh receiveth? Any unbeliever can ask again where the fulfilment to such promises are. Your mother's experience is not our yardstick, holding on to God is.

and the death of musketo's relative is proof that there is no God. Tell us more then. We have a more sure word of prophecy thn your family's experience, no thanks.

debo, you were conspicuosly missing on this thread oh. Don't let me send the police to look for you.
https://www.nairaland.com/1457950/matthew-23-message-lets-discuss

Mark Miwerds: I am wondering just how long one is supposed to "cultivate the habit of tithing" before the harvest is "in bountiful folds?

My mother faithfully "tithed" for over half a century. Never once saw this "bountiful folds" you speak of.

The promise God attached with tithing does not match up with the "blessings" that all you "tithe" teachers claim. God said of the blessings He promised for tithing, "there shall not be room enough to receive it."

So many blessings that there is not enough room for them. That is quite a lot of blessings that obviously were absent in my mother's 50+ years of tithing her money. Who got the blessings she was supposed to have received for her faithfulness?

i do not understand, your mother is the standard and example we are to follow or God's word is? You talk like one of the foolish unbelievers, the same 'point' can be made on giving or any of God's promises. One can pick some random fellow and say giving is not working or prayer is not working, or God is not working. It is unto you according to your faith. If your faith is in your mum and her life for 500 years, please keep it to yourself. We need people who's faith and hope is on God and His word.

macof: This guy is still in primary school, he would believe anything, even superman is real in his brain

Learn to discuss tangibly, this is a forum. Simply highlight my statements and logically ask questions. Now try that.

Logicboy03: 1)We are told in that Mary got pregnant with Jesus without intercourse or an earthly father. Where does the other half of his chromosomes come from?

It's called a miracle. A lack of exposure and belief in miracles will leave the reader continuously confused and exasperated no matter the logic used to explain a miracle.
See this for instance, the other half of His chromosomes come from God.

2)We are told that God sent his only begotten son to die for our sins. Is there a problem with forgiving sins without the death of somebody?

Yes there is. The wages/consequence of sin is death. Jesus came to die, so that we do not have to die again. Hahahaha, that raises about 50 different questions doesn't it?
Okay, well, in the God world, there are consequences for actions. Man was created in God's image. If he sins, he dies. Like if you tear your flesh, blood comes out. Don't ask me silly questions like why does blood come out. Hohohohoho.

3)We are told that Yahweh is the God of Isreal. Why would a good God choose one set of people over another? Is there a problem speaking to other people around the world at the same time? Why must all his prophets be Jews?

All His prophets are not jews. Abraham was the first jew, and God had been speaking to people before Abraham. He spoke to Adam, spoke to Cain etc. Those are two people on record that He spoke to and would not operate in faith. Faith is dependence on God. God made man to depend on Him, unfortunately, man wants to be independent of God. God spared Noah, a non jew, and established a covenant with him. Who can tell how many people God spoke to but they refused to obey and walk in faith before Abraham? Abraham chose to walk by faith. He walked and passed the tests so much that God made a covenant with him, to bless the whole world through him. He made covenants with others after him too.
Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
The bold shows that God had the whole world in mind from the start, not just Abraham and his descendants. Its like today, God is speaking through the Bible. Image123 is listening, logicb is not. In 100years, logicb's shildrens will then be asking silly question about how God loves Image123 more than logicb.

4)We are told that we come from two human beings- Adam and Eve. However, science/history proves this impossible because Jews/Hebrews were far from being the first humans on earth and also, the world could not be possibly populated by 2 human beings into 7 billion given the particular space of time and incest.

Jews and Hebrews are not the first humans on earth, even the Bible makes no such claims. On two becoming 7billion, there was no family planning just 50 years ago. It was not rare and is still heard in some quarters of a man having 20 children, 50 children etc. Even without the God influence, this is very realistic.

5)We are told that Jesus was a peaceful man. However, Jesus scattered the merchandise of traders in the church/synagogue and chased them with whips. Such an action in any civilized country is jail time for destruction of private property and assault.

Homosexuality is legally punishable by death in some parts of the world. It is a crime for women to drive in some parts of the world. Where there is no law, there is no sin. That is BTW. Jesus'actions were legal and the jews knew it. They had turned the temple into a business centre, they were the wrong ones. Its like turning the road to selling points and hawking area. You and your goods are liable to being confiscated, gerrit?
Jer 7:11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.

6)Paul in the bible remains one of the greatest examples for sexism. Yet, we are to believe that the bible is the word of a divine and merciful God.
(http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/Bbl/Sexism/Sexism.html)

Everybody has their role to play in the kingdom. A man cannot be a queen and a woman cannot be a king. That is basic order. This has nothing to do with being merciful. Every employer has a criteria. It can be age, like you may not employ a 90yr old or a 6yr old for a particular job. It might be educational qualification, it might be height or physical disability like in paramilitary and co. God also has requirements for different positions. What you need is a paradigm shift.

7)Did Jesus really sacrifice himself? Did he really do anything for us? If I know that I am going to a place called heaven which is an everlasting paradise, why wouldnt I go and get myself crucified? I am only accepting the crucifixion for a reward- this is no sacrifice.

To sacrifice is to give up something valued. So yes, Jesus sacrificed Himself. He became a man for more than 30years. he was made lower than the angels whom He was supposedly head of for eternity(many many years). He gave up His glory. Can you give up your position as president to go become an animal for a couple of weeks? He did it because there was no one else. All man was corrupt by default, there needed to be an uncorrupt man to offer an acceptable sacrifice.

All christian historians and scholars will agree that the bible is incomplete. Yet, we are still using the bible as divine inspiration. What if further explanations, abrogations and commandments are in those missing books of the bible? Even the translation of the bible from the original languages is not complete...some words cant be accurately translated......

The Bible is complete. It contains everything that is needed for salvation and pleasing God.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

9) How could Adam and Eve have grandchildren without inbreeding occurring with their children?

Inbreeding occurred.

10)The most irrational thing that I find is that the God as described in the bible suspiciously has all the characteristics of a Jewish man in the early centuries.
-He chooses his Jewish people over others (Jewish prophets, God of isreal)
-Sexist laws (http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/Bbl/Sexism/Sexism.html)
-believes in sacrifice (eg Cain and abel's sacrifice, Jesus sacrifice on the cross)
-mostly supports the Jews in wars
-never mentions any ancient lands/people that jews have never been to (eg hanan, aztecs, etc)
-never mentions any technology that the jews never had access to
-never once suggested that slavery is one of the most evil things a man can do to another
-believed in the death penalty as ascribed by many Jewish laws.

How is that irrational. Is like saying you find it irrational for a child to have the characteristics of the father. Though what you have listed is twisted, but that is basically what you are saying.

Goshen360: ^ Is the church = to the storehouse? I simply can't find your own answer to your own question is your own going in circles explanation. Is the storehouse = to the church today? Be straight forward please.

Gosh, you can read i'm sure. You should have noticed that the post was a reply to debo's post that i quoted. It is debo's question, not mine. If you feel that a particular point was not addressed, there are more civil ways to state so than this. Do you even know the meaning of the phrase 'going in circles', or you think it is an insult to use on the opponent?
i have answered the what is tithes part directly, and anyone who understand that point should have no issues understanding the storehouse or the devourer. The context is clear.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
The store house is the treasury or chambers or place where the offerings were stored. It is simply a building or place where things are stored. There is nothing scholarly or greekly or concordance expository about it. It is a bank, a store. In the same way, offerings, or whatever name you prefer(our word headmasters), collections, tithes, contributions, gifts, donations, they can be stored by the church today anywhere they deem fit. If they like, let them store it in a bowl or in a corporate bank account or in a member's house or in the pastor's kitchen, or inside a church building. It's the same thing and same purpose achieved, to keep to save to store. Its history appears to be from the below; not rocket science BTW.
2Ch 31:11 Then Hezekiah commanded to prepare chambers in the house of the LORD; and they prepared them,
2Ch 31:12 And brought in the offerings and the tithes and the dedicated things faithfully: over which Cononiah the Levite was ruler, and Shimei his brother was the next.

The devourer is well, the devourer. The devourer simply devours, eats something quickly, destroys something or wastes something. The devil is the chief devourer because he is the theif that comes to steal, kill and destroy, always looking for whom to devour.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:'
It is basic Christian 101 that christians are not wrestling against flesh and blood but against the devil and his team. So it is not surprise if a christian views an attack on himself or his own as coming from the devil. It is simply wisdom to get to the root of the matter instead of plucking leaves and branches. The Old Testament offers very little direct knowledge of the devil and his activities. However New Testament christians are not ignorant of his DEVICES.
i'm hoping further questions would be with the aim of understanding and learning, instead of the usual hole seeking.
Luk 11:53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:
Luk 11:54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Sunnycliff: He had no money and has been praying that God should provide for him. As he went out he saw some men working in a building site. So he joined them for a full day pay. at the end of the day his wage was paid but he was paid with a counterfeit money but he went ahead making purchases with it. However, he knew the money was a fake.

The christian perspective is not exactly founded on what is wrong and what is right, but on the life and leading of God. However, there are some clearly revealed will of God from scriptures that cannot be compromised. The christian(actually every human) will come across temptation, and he/she is actually empowered to overcome that temptation. Overcoming is to not fall into the temptation. It may however include suffering.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Buying things with counterfeit money is criminal and a christian should not be engaged in such practice.

He is a prisoner awaiting trials for a crime he never committed but he had no body to defend him. He had already spent two years behind bars and had been praying to God for deliverance. Then one fateful day unidentified gun men attacked the prison breaking it and inmates had a field day of escape. He too joined and never came back again.

The individual needs the guidance of God at that moment for what to do. i understand the argument about Paul, Silas and Peter's escape from prison. However, their cases were supernatural and they didn't have the intent of escaping. It was the angel that led Peter out, it was not an opportunist adventure. If God says "Go", there is nothing to fear. If one presumes to go, he is on the run for life, as it were. And could be legally shot to death even. If God wants to deliver him, he will still be delivered, like Paul and Silas were.

He was seeking for a job in a multinational and it was clearly stated in the company policy that application form is Free. His uncle is the deputy human resources manager. His uncle demanded he pay 5000 to him as a sign of his commitment to job search and to facilitate his application. He bluntly refused.

Commitment? A bribe is a bribe. He should go ahead to apply for the job since application is free. He should explain his stand to his uncle and not make an issue of it, telling people up and down. If God wills, he will still have the job and he will earn the respect of his uncle if not more. If he does not get the job, fine. It's not the end of the world.

Your room mate in school was applying for a job and unknown to him you are the HRM of the firm. After the recruitment processes you discovered he lacked some few added qualifications needed for the job. However the job demands a high level of integrity and you can vouch for him and you went ahead giving him the job offer.

You are the HRM. Go ahead, give him the job and vouch for him, not just can vouch.

Officially your institution makes transcript available 3 weeks from the day of payment. You ordered for your own after three weeks it was not available. On inquiry you were told that you need to grease the palms of those in charge else in the next One month you may never get it. Meanwhile in your choice destination its deadline is three days to go. You offered them 3000 and the transcript was ready within four days.

The greasing part is what is called compromise. Bribery and corruption has no other name.
1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

debosky: Can you clarify the above please? Does that 'whatever' include ill-gotten gain e.g. from robbery? Is that now holy unto God and sanctified as well? I'm not saying you're implying the latter, I just need you to clearly state what you mean.

i presented the 'above' in the context that it is not only agric produce that was holy unto God. The very chapter stated that anything or EVERY devoted thing was holy unto God. Read the context please.

Secondly, if it is simply whatever we 'devote' that is holy unto God, why even bother referring to biblical tithe if we can all decide on the 'whatever' we choose to devote to God?

Context again. The tenth is holy unto God.

If it is a matter of support to ministers, that support should be according to the need, not some formula. 10% giving is not some magic number that will automatically meet ministers' needs.

The Word of God is wisdom. There is nothing wrong in learning from and applying sustainable models in taking care of issues. According to the need is being subjective if i may so say. Who determines the 'need'? Do church workers deserve the best? If church workers got the best in the Old Testament, and we are supposedly in a better covenant, are church workers not supposed to get the best? Do they not have more need than ever before? Many times, we do not give because we do not see the need. There is no magic number that meets needs, it is ultimately God that supplies the need of the believer. However, the giving of the tenth is a biblically proven stable way.

One comment on the issue of 'show me' so and so - it is has to be based on what is written, not what is not written. If all that is written is agricultural tithe, there is no basis to extend it further to fish. To say show me where tithing fish was prohibited is a logical fallacy - an argument from silence. Instead the onus is on you to produce a verse saying that 'fish tithe is not prohibited' as the other party has provided verses describing agricultural giving.

All that is written is not agricultural tithe. This has been demonstrated with Abraham, Jacob and the pharisee. Here is the pharisee again.
Luk 18:12

(ASV) I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get.
(CEV) I go without eating for two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all I earn."
(Darby) I fast twice in the week, I tithe everything I gain.
(GNB) I fast two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all my income.'
(ISV) I fast twice a week, and I give a tenth of my entire income.'

If there is an insistence on the type of tithe not acceptable, then there should be proof that some tithe are not acceptable. The Bible student knows that the Israelites were not primarily fishermen. You'd hardly see a record of an Israelite fisherman in the OT. Their major economy is what was talked about. If for instance, they were egyptians, those ones were known for fish work. But it is inherent that when God pronounced blessings on the Israelites, it is touching every work that they do, even though most of the written blessings are about vineyards and flocks. Even christians who have never been to a farm say Amen to these blessings today(cf Deuteronmy 28v1-13). They know that it applies to their prosperity in general, and one show of acknowledment and appreciation that it is all given them by God is the bringing of the tithe.

Talking of birth and death and haircuts is also disingenuous - firstly all those activities are recorded elsewhere in scripture and secondly, none of those activities are under discussion here as requirements for Christians so they are irrelevant to this discussion.

i don't understand this part of the post?

In the end, we must return to what is written, else people will make outlandish inferences in order to justify their behaviour. Logic is not what we need but the Spirit, but that still does not mean we can simply extend scripture to cover requirements that are not described therein.

Very true. However, we should be able to make mature deductions like in passages where God says we should sow bountifully. We don't just say He is talking to farmers and i am a lecturer.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

debosky: Interesting exposition but ultimately isn't where the primary focus should be in my humble opinion.

The crux of Malachi 3:10 as I see it is thus:

1. Is it solely describing the specific tithe commanded to the Israelites or is it also speaking to Christians as an instruction to follow?

2. If the latter is true, then the question this thread focuses on becomes relevant - what are the tithes and what is the devourer and what is the storehouse for Christians?

The reason I think as written above is this - if Malachi 3:10 is not an instruction to Christians, then regardless of the meaning of tithe and storehouse and devourer, it will remain strictly for the Jews.

Now I know folk will bring up Timothy and say all scripture is God-breathed and so on, but being God-breathed does not mean a blanket requirement for a Christian to copy all the practices therein. Therefore if 3:10 is not an instruction to follow for Christians, we learn from it that when God gives a commandment/law, it should be followed, not that we have to tithe in order to avoid devourers.

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
The phrase "all the tithes" is clear enough. Abraham gave all the tithe, so did Jacob, so did the pharisee.
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

So, evidently, we see that God has never rejected all the tithe, whether before the law or during the law. And if He is the God that changes not, He will not reject all the tithe now, else He would have stated it. Certainly He had stuff to say about amendments in Matthew 5, about sabbath, circumcision and co.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The verse in red is a bonafide part of scripture. We cannot neglect it or be coerced into avoiding it. ALL Scripture is profitable for INSTRUCTION. The next verse reiterates that it is for the man of God. All scripture belong to us.

So, what are the tithes and what is the devourer and what is the storehouse for Christians? The focus and reason for the tithe should be remembered. It is to take care of the temple workers. Of course, i do not expect that any sane and regular reader on the religion section should be taking us back to kindergaten talk about tithe to widows and orphans. Those are not the tithe being referred to in the verse. This one comes to to the STORE HOUSE. So when it says BRING ALL, even Old Testament folks knew the context, not to now talk of New Testament, blood of Jesus bought, Holy Ghost dwelling christians, as it were. The purpose for the tithe according to the verse is THAT THERE MAY BE MEAT IN my House. That is to take care of the temple workers. It is the same application today. Pharisees will stick to letter and demand that NO WORk be done on the sabbath day, missing the purpose and reason of God. It is no wonder that present day pharisees will demand that we must give church work only agric produce, even when we all know that does not meet the need or fulfil the purpose today.
THAT THERE MAY BE MEAT is not just indicative of a dogmatic view of meat as we know it. Meat does not have to be agric produce today. Jesus talked about His meat, to do God's will. When the scripture talks about our daily bread, or of the arrow that flies by night, or of treading serpents and scorpions. We should be mature enough in understanding, and not be as rigid as the OP to think it is just agege bread God must give us daily. Your own bread might be pepper in the market, another's might be a job in the bank. That the Bible uses so much of agric terms is indicative of the society and economy that was prevalent at that time.

swtchicgurl: @image123 and alwaystrue,

God bless you two. May God continually increase us all. Amen.

Amen and amen.


A slight run through though, to 'formally' end the chapter .

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

These last few verses affirm to us again that Jesus was not just talking to a group of localised scribes and pharisees. He was actually speaking primarily to Israel, and secondarily(by extension) to every human being. We all have notes to take in the sense that the same things/fate will befall anyone who tows the same line. The majority of the leaders of Israel in Jesus' time were subtle. That is why He called them serpents and vipers. He was not using it as a hate word or borne out of anger to lash back at the jews. They were truly subtle/cunning. They covered their slyness with a religious garb. God hates hypocrisy in anyone, whether jewish or gentile. Also, Jesus spoke of the reality of hell. How can you escape the damnation of hell? It is possible to escape therefore. But we cannot remain in hypocrisy and expect to escape. He had earlier talked about a two fold child of hell(v15). This is indicative of the fact that there are different levels of hell and damnation in hell. It is unto every man
according to their work. Yes, sin is sin, and sin will get any person into hell/damnation, but just like sickness is sickness, there are some more dreadful than the other. No one should remain in sin, with the belief that God cannot punish them for the mere sin committed.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Here is a prophetic statement. In other words, here is God speaking. He says He would send prophets and wise men and scribes to them(YOU). Who are they again? Certainly, not just the people hearing Jesus speak, not just the scribes and pharisees. He is talking to Israel as a whole. Israel has rejected the Saviour at this phase, as it were. He is then pronouncing judgement/woe on them. If anyone neglects and rejects the Saviour, similar fate awaits him/her.
So God is sending them scribes and wise men etc. And you know the story. They did kill some and persecute others. [s]The thought of scribes paying tithe lingers [/s]

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

There we have it, the RIGHTEOUS blood, RIGHTEOUS Abel. Some folks keep on living in unrighteousness, and quoting "There is none righteous, no not one", out of context. In the midst of all the evil and sin, we should dare to stand out in righteousness, God's righteousness. Unrighteous people have being persecuting and killing righteous people from Genesis to Malachi. Zechariah wrote the book of Zechariah BTW. Jesus says that this audience slew him? He is referring to Israel as a whole. The nation of Israel. Jesus pronounced judgement on that generation for denying the Saviour. They saw all the signs and wonders, than perhaps any other generation, but they rejected Jesus. Quite similar to the generation of Moses, that saw so many wonders, and yet could not enter IN because of unbelief. Many unbelievers ask for signs like they would believe if they saw them. For such, Jesus affirms that they will not truly believe if they do not believe the Bible. They have the Bible, let them hear it.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

And here is the judgement in brief. Quite self explanatory i suppose.


i still await tangible discussions emanating from the chapter. Preferably as a whole, and not just the fixated devotion to verse 23. Blessings.

plaetton: Yeah, Jesus loves a cheerful tithe payer.
We already heard that.

Come again? i didn't understand.

Jeremiah 13:16 Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness. 13:17 But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD's flock is carried away captive. 13:18 Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.

Logicboy03: #butthurt

No hard feelings, Jesus loves you.

i 'think' i know just two types of atheists globally.
1. The fool that said in his heart that there is no God.
2. The biggest fool that said with his mouth that there is no God.

Alfa Seltzer: Does this commandment apply to orphans or children of rapists and drug addicts?

What does it matter to you?

Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

[quote author=Richy.]sorry man. i mean spies.I don't mean to ruin your day with topographical error. u know how you type on phone and different dictionary words keep forming. [/quote]There goes the real ruining of his day. lol @ topographical error.

@OP
There is no temptation an individual christian is exposed to that he/she cannot overcome, God is that faithful. Nevertheless, the lead us not into temptation prayer remains on point.