₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi: ^^^^ I believe you are missing these things a little, we can't afford to see ourselves as Israel. We are not,

And why can we not? We have been engrafted into the tree. We are also partakers of the Kingdom, and fellow heirs. Christ has made us one blood.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Again, what God has joined together, do not put asunder. We are partakers and fellow children of Abraham.

God has his plan for his earthly people. He has his ways which he has kept as a secret to himself for the body of Christ, these secrets or mysteries of the body/church were revealed to this Apostle called Paul.

Deuteronomy 29:29

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed (are no longer secret) belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

The Sovereign God. It's His prerogative to keep things secret if He wants to. And that's where it was. It was hidden in God, the same God who created all things by Jesus Christ.

The mysteries of the kingdom were revealed to all the apostles.
Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Apostle Paul would then say concerning the revelation and the gospel he got-

Ephesians 3:9

"And to make all men see (not just Israel or the Gentiles, but the whole human race) what is the fellowship of the mystery, (secret) which from the beginning of the world (age) hath been hid (where?) in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

What am I trying to say here! mixing the book of revelation, the four gospels, the book of Peter and James can only water down the gospel of God(notice Paul never calls this gospel the gospel of the kingdom) in this dispensation.

The verse you just quoted is like a paraphrase of the great commision, which was committed into the hand of all believers starting from the ascension of Jesus. It's not peculiar to Paul. Thank God for Paul and his ministry and complete obedience, but these things were not hid to other apostles. The Word of God is one, Scriptures is one, the gospel is one. Paul severely warned against another gospel. The gospel is one and the same. Jeus preached it and said it will be preached until the end of the world and in all the world.
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Paul was not ashamed of it, and preached it to all he met.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Gala 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
It is about this same gospel and Kingdom that Peter and other apostles preached.

The epistles stand on their own, they were secrets hidden in God for the church. Paul could then say Peter, James and the Jewish elders in Jerusalem could not add to this gospel

Gal 2
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

Paul himself could not and should not add to the gospel. All Paul is saying in that verse is that the gospel was not taught to him by the chief apostles. In another place, he reveals that it was Christ Himself who taught him. He was simply defending and establishing his co-authority as an apostle, not that he is saying that he has a special thing that nobody has.

Paul spoke above them, he had a message the rest could not comprehend.

THIS IS ENTIRE YOUR PERSONAL OPINION AND IT IS NOWHERE STATED IN THE SCRIPTURES. The apostles could not comprehend but you can abi? yea right. Paul thought of himself as the least, i don't know where you get this speaking above them mentality.

I hope we don't deviate from the main reason for the thread but if we can establish some truth within scripture, I believe you wouldn't mind the brief digression yourself. So the thing you want to realize is, with every portion of Scripture that you read, before you even begin to pick it apart, you should ask yourself just two or three simple questions. Who’s writing? To whom is he writing? What are the circumstances around this writing?

Fine, but i don't actually pick them apart. i ask God's Spirit to explain them to me, and bring to my remembrance other scriptures He has taught me, so it makes my understanding of broader and cumulative perspective, to His glory. It also helps me to rightly divide the Word of truth, instead of just dividing into verses, chapters and writers. All Scripture is authored and inspired by God, so i care less who is writing but more on Who authoured. i learn from every scripture, and ask for grace to be doer of the Word. i'm not looking for whom is he writing to, i know it is me. i say, Here i am Lord, listening, instead of saying Oh, he's speaking to Galatians, or to Timothy, or to Peter, or to Nicodemus, or to Moses. He is always speaking to me. i learn from ants and from lilies, why would i not learn from every writ of the Holy Bible? i also look at the circumstances around the writing, which is the context, but i am not limited to them. The context is a base and a foundation that should be there. That allows God to lead and make the Word not just letter but Spirit. Most of the NT quoting of OT scriptures are not exactly in 'primary context' if you would study them.

sheniqua: So why was Love's father taken out as national overseer in Jamaica after this wedding?
Your answer makes no sense,stop defending double standards.
I remember when deeper lifers condemned TV,that practice has changed
The men condemned suits initially ,that practice has also changed
They wouldn't wear jeans (I Cannot fathom why),I don't know if that has changed
They would punish fathers for the sins of their kids,you tell us that has also changed
If those things you once condemned are now being allowed,what does that tell you?
Those things were never sinful in the first place but doctrinal issues
One day,if Christ tarries,deeper life just like the Assemblies of God will relax it's doctrines on certain outward qualities ,when they realize just like the afore mentioned,that those things do not a true worshipper make.
God's standards do not change

i won't be so quick and assertive to say that Love's father was suspended or taken out. i'm not saying that he wasn't or that he was. But the only 'proof'i see(so far) to defend that statement is this thread. Its this same thread that says that the lady was putting on jewellery and that she permed her hair(two statements which might be exaggerated). Nonetheless, even if he was disciplined, that's deeper life leadership business, not mine, not yours. Every establishment has a right to hire and to fire. And not every church discipline is because of sin. Many decisions are purely administrative and permitted by God. These decisions do not in any way remove anyone's name from the book of life, neither are they eternal. They do not hinder any of the affected from fellowship with God and His people, neither do they hinder prayers, or giving or evangelism, or so many other important things that God is pleased that we do. It is a common thing in administrative decisions. i've seen a teacher sacked because of something that happened to one of her pupils. The teacher was not even there, and it was after school hours. i've seen a manager sacked because of one of his workers, i've heard of football coaches sacked because their players did not win(and the player continues to play in the club). i've seen an head of department sacked because one of his subordinates made a mistake(meanwhile the HOD was not even in the office when the mistake was made). There are many more examples of similar administrative decisions that are common place, so folks should simply stop straining at a gnat while they swallow camels elsewhere.
The church of God is a place where there is life, there has to be some flexibility. Rigidity is not a fruit of the Spirit. Most folks here are hypocrites who have changed viewpoints over severally in one year, but they insist that deeper life must be the way they know them forever.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
God is most interested in our unity as believers, not necessarily in uniformity as good as that might be. Unfortunately, men want uniformity. Deeper looking at others as weird because they don't act like them and vice versa. All the (what you call) 'doctrines' of deeper life have been in sincerity, and in a willingness to please God, and be the best. And the more beautiful thing has been their circumspection(Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise) before doing new things, and their humility to change. These are two qualities many churches and christians do not have, sadly. It comes out today, they are already doing it tomorrow. That's not a good quality of a stranger, a pilgrim,a visitor. And sadder still is when something is clearly wrong but churches hold on to it forever and it becomes tradition. Life is constantly evolving and changing. TV is not what it used to be, neither is fashion. Most of what deeper life gives are actually the best advice they can give scripturally. But for you to call them standards, it means you do not know what standards are. Those are not God's standards, neither are they deeper life's standards. The standards are clear and unchanging, anywhere and anytime. Salvation standard remains the same, anywhere and time. The Bible teaching on Heaven, on Hell, on Judgement, on Baptism, on the inspiration of scriptures. These are the standards, these do not change anytime or anywhere. But to hold on to peskiness, talking about using TV, or using microphone, or using one cloth or gown, or using glass or wooden pulpit. Those ones are not standards. they are at best administrative decisions, and the Bible is very clear that there are different administrations. The whole church of God may not act the same way in such issues, and for all time. There is a time when church leadership has to be a jew to win the jews, be weak to gain the weak etc. There are stuff you tell one church that you cannot tell another but speak to them as babes. Its, not double standard, its divine wisdom unto salvation. The true standard remains unchanging.

^
ermm actually, hell was not created for the devil.

OLAADEGBU: I called you babyosisi, are you not? No one called you Jezebel except you are now claiming the title for yourself. And BTW, that suit is her professional suit, I still can't find an earring on her despite all your false accusations.

https://www.nairaland.com/1350074/kumuyi-offers-resign-over-sons/27

is that osisi? i seriously doubt sha.

sheniqua: I read through this whole thread and my heart was grieved exceedingly.
My dear Frosbel,take a deep breathe and rethink.
I say all this with a heart of love and great concern
Be careful that you don't become a stumbling block to others by the words you say
Remember that if you profess to be a teacher,you will face a worse punishment if you lead people to err

Nobody ever gets convicted by legalism
Legalism will only make people philosophers and argumentative not true genuine converts.
Who are you fighting,Frosbel?
Christ?
The Church?
If the gospel you preach is not aimed at converting unbelievers to the Grace of God or build up the body but to cause a division in the body of Christ,my dear,it cannot be of God

You have denied the the existence of a triune God,you have denied the place of eternal damnation,you have denied that God speaks to his people in visions and dreams
Now let me tell you my own vision of heaven sometime around 2007,on this same bed that I lay typing this.
I was asleep and all of a sudden found myself in a big gathering listening to the most amazing choir ever heard.all around were angels and people singing along.the Arch angel that led the choir was a big black man and as he touched a staff on the words on the board before him,musical notes and music flowed from that action.I didn't see harps or guitars or cymbals being played ,I only heard the melody that seemed to come out of nowhere but the singing from this gathering was just awesome
Writing this down and recalling that scene puts me back in the presence of God I witnessed that day.
I sang along with this choir and was deep in awe and reverence when a hand tapped me on my right shoulder and I heard a voice say it is time to go back now
Instantly I woke up and saw that I was laying on my bed,the vision had looked so real.
I crawled out of bed to my living room( not to wake my hubby up), I fell on my face and worshipped
I sang one of the songs I heard and till this day still remember it but has never sung it to anyone .

I am not quick to share this story because it could be misunderstood but I decided to do it because of your words.
Dear Frosbel,don't you ever ascribe to yourself the complete knowledge of God and His workings
You put God in a box by teaching such
Our God is too big ,his presence is awesome and in that presence God can manifest himself and do whatever he will,however he wants to do it
His ways are not our ways and he is far beyond our comprehension if not he wouldn't be God,
It is good to study ,it is scriptural to study and show ourselves approved but any study that is not Holy Spirit inspired or runs contrary will lead us no where buy astray.

In my early days as a young Christian on campus,I remember a man of God I respect so much Gbile Akanni
There is a phrase I learned from him and still remember till this day and I want to plead that you consider it
It goes this way
[size=18pt]
If it is new,it is not true
If it is true,it is not new[/size]

God bless us all and lead us and find us in his will.
Love is the more excellent way

It is finished.

DrummaBoy: Image 123, FAIL! FAIL!! FAIL!!!

I left the other thread for you to have the last say because you just don't want to understand. Now you come here spewing similar gibberish. let's educate ourselves. Frosbel has made the point that is very biblical, he will bring up his children in the way of the Lord and when they are grown, whatever they do then, as grown men and women, is up to them and their relationship with God. That is scripture.

Now the Kumuyi's business becomes our business because they are the ones who decided to redefine the bible with their rules and regulation. My point: no one will criticize that church and its principles if she had not first laid down rules that are beyond scriptures, such that when grown children fail, their parent are punished. But not just that. One parent is punished because he is a mere pastor and the other is left off the hook because he is GS.

oops, I have forgotten, you have actually implied that Kumuyi is beyond being disciplined. "He is not on the same level with us.."

So I refrain and only would suggest that THE GS SHOULD RESIGN BECAUSE HE IS GUILTY OF DOUBLE STANDARD

Bros, you're showing the signs of a deluded man. It was this very thread you left in frustration yesterday and gave your word on. i replied you around 1:20am TODAY! Your talk about leaving the other thread and last says are best understood by you. Here is a fellow who cannot stick to his own self imposed words for barely twenty four hours, crying blood and points for another to uphold decades of tradition. You know what, find someone else to waste his time.

[quote author=Deeper_danNY]Sorry I was actually referring Frosbabel[/quote]That's a new one, frosbabel. Na real author of confusion, stirring up strife for a hobby.
Anyway, let's be careful not to get carried away by these folks whose only motive is to see you fall and act, insult, abuse, get angry like them. They have nothing to lose.

[quote author=Deeper_danNY]Sorry I was actually referring Frosbabel[/quote]That's a new one, frosbabel. Na real author of confusion, stirring up strife for a hobby.

frosbel: do you think those who promote hypocrisy and legalism in the body of Christ should have any shame

Those who enforce the Christian 'hijab' on their members in Nigeria while allowing their members in the west to dress anyhow ?

Hypocrites no know shame.

What does it mean to dress anyhow? You're just been hypocritical and bitter. Who is dressing anyhow? Are exactly are your standards for christian dressing if after all this, you called deeper life dressing "anyhow". i guess your own sef go worse, na opportunity you no see.Deeper didn't promote you so you left.

frosbel: What my children do or do not do is up to them and their relationship with GOD.

Oh but kumuyi and his children are all your business and must be punished. You are an hypocrite after judgment like the pharisees.

plappville: Thank you joor, I am not English oo, I am a Nigerian. Even some English people I have chated with careless about making grammatical errors. They do make errors, but it doesn't counts. Only brother image123 alias Woman wrapper dey roam about looking for my errors, instead of him to look into my concern in the body of Christ..

What is your concern in the body of Christ plap. i must look at it.

plappville: E too pain u reach bone no pretend...
Who are u correcting? I suggest you correct urself first. Look, if I like make I struggle with grammar. I go join the first people to kiss the Lords frets when he will come back again. You are only killing urself fishing out my grammatical errors God doesn't look at them. Just accept you are that PROUD,, ITK,MJST, Christians we have in NL. I will not refare u to some of ur errors in previews threads. It make no sense, do l will leave u for now. NL OLODO.... it's funny in the religion section no be small.....rireeeeeee.

so much error grammatically. Your reactions amuse me, really. Don't worry, I'll tell the Lord to explain to you on the sabbath. Perhaps, he'll send that sister again.

shdemidemi: I never said only genesis 15 was written for us, how can I possibly say that... All I said was that Paul was not speaking of the entire Old Testament in the Rom 4:24 as construed by you, I believe he was talking about 'imputation of righteousness'. This does not mean any word in the scriptures should be discarded, we both agree the entire scripture was inspired by God.

You implied that only genesis 15 was written for us, and you are still saying that that is what verse 24 is saying. i'm giving a cumulative observation. the epistle is littered with several references to different books and passages in the OT, obviously those passages referenced were written for us, and to cap it up,
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
Whatsoever, not just verse 24. The entire scripture is inspired by God, written for us, and profitable.

Having said that, we are also charged to rightly divide the word of God. Most part of the scriptures was written for information purpose hence we learn from such, some are written as doctrines to be practiced as believers. I believe our job is to decipher and discern what was actually written for church practices.

We are to rightly divide, not just divide. What you are doing is just dividing. Other scriptures should be had in mind while dividing. you don't just take a verse and build a huge structure on it, without recourse to other scriptures that speak on similar issue. Cumulatively, the Bible teaches that ALL scripture is profitable and not to be discarded. The Roman epistle shows it, and has been consistent at that in every chapter considered so far. Each chapter has quoted and heavily relied on the Old Testament Bible. The Berean christians searched the Old testament Bible to confirm what the apostles were saying before they fully accepted their teaching. Jesus said to search the scriptures. Paul said to study.

Now I always like to try and clarify where I'm afraid that I have been misunderstood. I am not saying that you're not to read the Four Gospels." Now you know I have never said anything like that, but they can twist it you know. I have never told anybody not to look at the Old Testament or not to look at the Gospels, but here it is. Everything that was written before Paul wrote is for the believers' learning.

And what is that learning for if not to do?
Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

And I would say the same thing with the Gospels. Granted there's not Church doctrine in the Gospels, but that doesn't mean that we don't study them. That doesn't mean that we don't make application. In fact I always have the primary one, when Jesus was talking to the Twelve up there on the northern shores of Galilee, and He probably saw a northern city ten to fifteen miles away sitting up there on the mountain side, and what did He say to the disciples as a perfect illustration? "You're just like that city on a hill:"


Matthew 5:14

"Ye are the light of the world, A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."


Now who was to be the light of the world according to all the Old Testament promises? Israel, the Jew. But Israel rejected that opportunity of becoming the light of the world, so now by application, who today is the light of the world? You and I as believers, and so we can still make the same application. In the verse right before that He used salt as the example.


Matthew 5:13

"Ye are the salt of the earth;..."


Christ was talking to the Twelve indicative to the Nation of Israel, but we know Israel rejected that role, so today who is the salt of the earth? Again, you and I as believers. Absolutely we are, and the same throughout all the Gospel accounts. We can see perfect applications, even though it was spoken to Israel under the Law, so here's where we have to be careful. Paul tells us that these Old Testament things were written not for our doctrine. You won't find Grace Salvation back in the Old Testament. You won't find anything concerning the Body of Christ, or the Rapture of the Church, and all these things that are indicative of the Body of Christ. But does that mean we don't study the Old Testament? No way. I love to the book of Genesis and that's where you get the foundation even for what we believe as Grace Age believers.

i actually wouldn't like to deviate too far from this thread. Just see it this way, even the verse 24/23 in your question, Is it literally written for Abraham? Because as far as we literally know, Abraham was dead even before it was written or recorded. So we can't be here arguing that it is not for us. All scriptures are written for the benefit of everyone.

joe4christ: I seriously don't understand what's happening to me recently, it seems my spirit is getting hyper-sensitive these days and a new perception about the purpose of life is being downloaded in me,

This might be perhaps because you are not resting well, or feeding well. The purpose of life is simply to glorify God. We were made to glorify God, any other purpose revealed to you by angel, man, or self is wrong. Get proper rest and take care of your health.

i'm beginning to perceive the earth as a place where i'm supposed to learn, and the more i learn the more my spirit develops, i cant explain it, but that's how i'm beginning to feel.

The christian does not live by his feelings, he lives by faith. Faith in God and in His Word. Don't live on your feelings or on bread alone, live by the Word of God, the just shall live by his faith.

It's like the whole purpose of life is to learn by experience and love unconditionally.

You are made to show forth God's praises, to glorify Him. That is the true purpose of life. Every other contrary purpose will lead to an unfulfilled life.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Fathe[/b]r which is in heaven.
Isa 43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise.
Psa 102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.
1Co 6:20 For [b]ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Phi 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

I'm scared, i'm beginning to loose my devosion in religious activities.
I find more comfort studying NDE testimonies than studying THE WORD (BIBLE).

What's happening to me

What's happening to you is that you are allowing the Word of God to depart from you. Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ the Word of God made flesh. Any other foundation will collapse, no matter how good, nice or sincere. No other foundation, not Peter, not Paul, not your pastor, not your studies, not money, not your family, not OBEs, not NDEs, not politics or governments, not NL, nothing but Jesus. Get back on track. Jesus is the firm foundation.

shdemidemi: This is the judgement within the body of Christ not the judgement to hell like you might want to have me believe. The parable of the sower comes to mind- But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

i answered floryg's question and then you brought up a question in another context. The passage i gave you was simply to put you back in full context.Everyone will be judged whatever name or time you call it. And every man's works will be rewarded whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

i simply quoted scripture as i wanted you to believe scripture. i don't know why you think i want you to believe a particular judgement to hell, whatever that means.

DrummaBoy: @Image 123

I had thought you will understand but let me try a little and after this one I will let the issue be. In your analysis of my post you conviniently left out the main issue, the 1Timothy scripture that is the very basis for a scriptural call for Kumuyi to resign

Mr, i didn't leave out any issue. There is nothing to argue with in scriptures. i replied your posts and opinions. i have no business replying scriptures that are quoted out of context. i may sometimes reply just to explain the passage in its true context. here is the passage you quoted which has little or nothing to do with the issue at hand.
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Yea well, what?

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Errm, Kumuyi meets this criteria quite well.

1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
He meets this as well. He is patient, but you do not want him to be obviously. he is not a brawler too, but you seem to wish he was more of a brawler at his son's wedding.

1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
Yes he did. i never heard anything scandalous about his children while they were under his house, before they became men. He trained them up well, gave them a good education, and they were church workers till the present issue. we didn't hear of his 15year old child fighting in the street, or doing drugs, or impregnating the girls in the neighbourhood. This is what child training is about. When i was a child phase, and when i became a man phase. When they were children, kumuyi did his job pretty well. It seems you probably do not understand the verse or passage. Perhaps you had been following men.

1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
He passed. You may also want to add thie next two verses which he also passes excellently too.
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Shame to the devilllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.

Now Image will have us believe that in the church all believers are equal but some are more equal than others (sound more like a line from George Owel's animal farm)



The bible does not teach this



And the very words of Jesus Himself

i can't be explaining every Bible passage that you quote for you. The Bible teaches that all of us can approach God for salvation and that God will judge anyone that commits sin. But the Bible clearly teaches that we are not all in the same rank. John was the greatest man that lived according to Jesus. that means he John was not equal to others. He taught about being greater than Jonah and Solomon, and like you just quoted, you do not have the same level as John the baptist.

As for the relationship btw me and John the Baptist, hear scripture:

[/color]Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Do you have problems? You just tried telling us that we are all equal, and then end up by emphatically suggesting to us that you are greater than John. See me see trouble oh. It is well in the well.

The theological implication of Jesus' words is that there is no longer a priestly order after that of Aaron and Moses and to exalt men to the position of Rabbi or Men of God with the connotation that they are greater than other, is to teach something that is foreign to the NT and that is obsolete. But how do you understand this since this is the reason you pay tithe to such men in the first place. But this is not a tithe thread and we can allow it to pass.

Oh, you just had to say the 't'word The theological implication is not our issue here, whatever that means.
[color=#990000]1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.
There are elders in the church, there are rulers, there are fathers, there are older and younger, there are children, there are men, there are women. They are not all the same. The husband is not the same as the wife in a sense, he is her 'head'. In another sense, they are one. Its the same in church, we are all one in the Body, but we are different parts of that one body, having need of one another.

Now if Kumuyi's resignation will hurt the church then I propose two things, he should be suspended following the same church rules that apply to other pastors; the same rule applied to the Jamaican pastor himself. If however he cannot be suspended then that church doctrine on outward adornment must be reviewed. Let a new standard for modesty in dressing be published and let it be worldwide, not just applying to the Nigerian church. If this cannot be done, then the likes of Colin Adua have the right to hold their views.

Well, i have nothing to say about this that i have not already said. It is none of my business. Nevertheless, remember that there are different administrations, and everyone is not in the same class. there are things Paul can teach others that he cannot teach babes. Its pastoral godly wisdom and discernment to know your members and audience. you probably may not understand these things as you may not belong to a church or be a leader, or have the experience of leading many human beings.

Now it seem to me that the issue of Kumuyi resigning is something that the church cannot contemplate. But that is not just an indictement on the church of DL but of Kumuyi himself. Having ministered in that church for close to 40years, he should have someone who can succeed him by now. He is over 70 and death can come anytime. Does he want to die and leave the flock scattered?

I rest my case on this thread.

Leave your case and mind your business please. Kumuyi is alive and a thousand of you cannot kill him. The church of God is not an experiment, it is the body of Christ. When and if God calls His men, He will provide another of the same heart. People like you are so ignorant you think there is nobody in church except Kumuyi, or Oyedepo or Adeboye. You are the ones shopping for probable replacements like its all politics. Don't worry yourself ehn, let God and maybe Kumuyi worry about that one. There is no indictment except on you, Kumuyi has done no wrong.

frosbel: God's children are not your business, they are God's business, by imposing a man made rule which is only kept in Nigeria and discarded in the west, you are playing double standards which is hypocrisy and making the life of a young couple miserable because of your silly legalistic laws on dress.

As a former deeperlifer , I can now see why many leave your church , it is too burdensome with man made laws, so much hypocrisy and boasting and outright pride because of some supposedly acquired status of holiness.

"In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness." - Matthew 23:28

Rubbish. people leave every church, not just deeper life. And all churches also receive new comers like almost every Sunday or something. You are so bitter, God help you not to endanger your health and eternity.

Alright to the bad belle's award winning post that they all want us to read,

Colin Adua: A bunch of over pampered kids!

Who?

A sister once told me that during her Deeper Life wedding that the wife of the regional overseer searched thoroughly for perming underneath their locally plaited hair, and if she had noticed one, that person would have been chased out of the wedding right there on her wedding day.

Is that the right thing to do? Is that what you do? Is that what you want to continue as church tradition? Should tradition be rather maintained?

Now, somebody in the same church, after years of humiliating and openly rebuking others for far lesser offfence, has the effrontery to adorn herself with perming(are you sure, that, is not weavon/wig), makeup, earing, wedding gown, see through show shoulder dress,

Hold on, hold your horse please! Who is this fellow who is humiliating and openly rebuking others for far lesser offences for years, who now has effrontery to adorn herself? Are you referring to Love Kumuyi, and can you prove this, or this is just vain and frustrated etie melo babble?
2Ti 2:16 Keep away from worthless and useless talk. It only leads people farther away from God.

against the church's 38 years preaching/ standard and the wedding was allowed to hold, while the GS was present, just because of what? Probably, because she is being married to the GS (Oga on top) son. And deeper life members were there, clapping for them, beaming with smiles, inside deeper life church. You people needs to try more harder to explain to me that there is no DOULBE STANDARD.

You mean the church's so called 38 years of preaching has been about perming, weavon/wig, makeup, earring, wedding gown, see through show shoulder dress. That would be a shame, i don't think so, i've listened to Kumuyi too. That is not what the church's standard has been about.
Now FYI, such kind of wedding had been holding in deeper life(to the best of my knowledge in North America). It didn't hold because of some perceived oga at the top. It had been holding and was normal to them. It may only be strange to visitors from Nigeria or other places. You are ignorant in this case, sorry.

Resignation or no resignation, apology or no apology, suspension or no suspension, discipline or no discipline, all those are meaningless medicine after death, the wedding has been permitted, the damage has been done. Why did the church allow the worldly wedding to hold in the first place? Didnt they see her make up at their traditional wedding two days before? Are the members afraid to rebuke the son of their pastor? All these shenanigans, laterly is just, far far far foul, a move to stop other members from giving their children high society wedding, after they have already given it to their kids.

Like my brother Ola has already replied, you are free to walk even unclad on your wedding day since that is what will make you happy and is what you have been missing all this while. But for deeper life, we'll leave them to their decisions. People have been having this kind of weddings in that area before this time and i guess they will continue to. It is folks in Nigeria that would not be wedded that way as their administration does not permit it, and they clearly are not in the same class. Nigeria(or more appropriately Lagos) is their headquarters, and they will do well to endeavour to keep to what they know/understand to be the highest standards.
Phi 1:9 And my prayer is that you may be increased more and more in knowledge and experience;
Phi 1:10 So that you may give your approval to the best things; that you may be true and without wrongdoing till the day of Christ;
That is my prayer for them.

Is it not outright hypocrisy, double standard and lack of integrity?

No, it is not. Every believer is not in the same class and does not exactly have the same syllabus. Now, that statement would go way over many's heads, but it is what it is. You would rather that they continue in tradition than be a living church? i agree and would personally criticize John and his wife if i could, for putting their parents and church through all the embarrassment because of selfish interest, and not remembering the children of who they are, though they have apologised for that. But to talk of hypocrisy or double standard, no, no. There are differences of administration but the same Lord. What God expects more of believers is unity and not uniformity. Uniformity is good and of various advantages but is not universally possible at the present. We are not all in the same class or administration. Some are in pry1, some are in SSS1,same school of faith and same Lord Jesus. They cannot take the same thing. Some can take deep, some can take meat, some are still babes. It is godly wisdom to understand this in pastoring, evangelism and in administration.

Am still very shocked, disappointed and I feel betrayed. I did not attend the wedding of someone very close to me, I did not take pictures with them, neither did I eat their cake and food at the hall, in my protest that I did not support him marrying an unbeliever, neither do I support his flambouyant worldly wedding, partly because of the church then, now look at this. How will he see me now? Is it not an outright betrayal?

Of course, no serious christian should support marriage to an unbeliever. how does this add up to marrying an unbeliever? Learn by the way, not to put your trust in man but in God. that is in your Bible, isn't it? That been said, i don't know how this wedding relates to your close person marrying an unbeliever. Nobody has betrayed you here, don't allow satan to make things up and exaggerate issues. i don't know why you are been jealous of unbelievers and worldly dressing BTW.
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
If you have offended your close person, simply go and apologise to him. All this wailing about how he will see you now is not needed. Are you more concerned about how men will see you or the right thing to do? Go and apologise if you have offended your close person. Even God offends people so its no deal if you have malunderstanding with any church or brother/sister.

Pastor Kumuyi would have shown us the stuff he was made of(if he was actually made of any stuff).

If you s=do not know the stuff Kumuyi is made of, you should not be here or anywhere writing long letters about him, simply mind your own business. Imagine the statement and konkobility as it were! So you are the one made of stuff, isee your stuff oh.

He was there, sat quietly, took pictures with them, probably, drank their wine (are you sure that wine wasnt alcoholic), listened to their songs(I wonder what they were singing about, in that shameless disobedience to a constituted organisation), possibly ate their cake and food.

Now, this is childish, don't be childish. You only take pictures with saints and angels right? All through school, primary, secondary, tertiary, with friends and at work, your pictures have been with apostles and God's generals ba? You must be the angel Colin right? you wonder what they were singing about? wonder no more, it must have been one dbanj song like that. So much for your wonderment. Like i have said, i do not exactly appreciate their disobedience to constituted authority, but fortunately, i'm not jealous. You sound very jealous and hurt, like you've missed something really important, yet you claim not to be even a member. i'm not jealous of children who do not know the gravity of their one day fun actions anyway.

Then flown back to Nigeria and started waving resignation over our faces. He doesnt need to offer resignation, as I read from a paper, he should have submitted a resignation letter, gone home collected all the wedding pictures and videos from the naughty couple and get them burnt, if he is serious.

He didn't wave it over your face, sorry. you barely matter in this issue. You may need to re-read the OP and the link slowly this time, or take time out to ask deeper life members/leaders who may have more authentic info if na so the thing important reach to your life.

I find it difficult listening to his messages again, because I keep asking myself, do this man mean all these things he is saying? If not the issue with my PC, I would have gotten all of them deleted from my HDD.

childish again. Were you the fellow that talked of bunch of overpampered kids? i see it was an introduction of sorts. Quickly sort out the issue with your life before you sort the one with your PC.

What has happened to open rebuke, that the church has been preaching? What has happened to showing our faith by our works? What has happened to " a leader's sin is a leading sin" condemnation?

Did you watch the video on the letter of apology? Do you know that that was done in the open, and transmitted live to all deeper life churches? What more do you want, a public flogging of the couple on the assembly ground, or a banishment to hell fire? The couple was suspended, what do you want again, you want heads to literally roll? Who is the leader in this case, and what is his sin?

Why didnt kumuyi call off or halt that wedding when he saw that girl like that? Why didnt he cancel it and chase those bunch of naughty kids out of the church, as has been done to so many other people in the past (as I heard, I never witnessed any), as the general overseer of the whole branches? He would have welded his cane immediately. A worthy shepherd can never see a sheep getting lost and keep quiet and after it must have gotten lost and eaten he now starts looking for it.

I seriously do not get this parable of the lost sheep that you are 'cracking' here, do expatiate. Why do you want Kumuyi to call off or halt the wedding? On what grounds? How was the girl like? Must wrong things continue in the name of tradition. Yet if they keep the tradition, it is your likes that will still accuse the church of cultism and legalism. Have you ever seen Kumuyi do that? No, but you suddenly want him to. On what basis, so that he will be a worthy shepherd in your estimation. Well, he does not live for your estimation, he lives as led by the Spirit of God, not by traditions of men.

If he had chased them out of the church and had postponed the wedding, now I would have been celebrating him, boasting and thumping my chest. And my respect for him would have gone back to 100%. But he sat there and kept quiet, while his kids were disobeying the church, now he is crying foul and rejecting apology. Thats crying when the head is already cut off, medicine after death, an outright double standard, because no one in his right senses can believe that he did not consent to the wedding.

Oh so this is all about your chest thumping abilities, okay. he does not need you to celebrate him. He has already achieved more than you can do in seven life times in this your present condition. If you like, have -100% respect for him or 100% respect for him, it does not take his name out of the book of life or put it there. You need a total overhauling of your mind.

The high society wedding, has already been done, the pictures are probably somewhere waiting to be enlarged, framed and hanged. Few years from now, the kids will look at them and possibly grin with satisfaction and give themselves high five and thumbs up, that they looked good during their day. And other members will still be shackled down from happiness, freedom and liberty with unnecessary laws.

Happiness, freedom and liberty? Is that what you think wedding cakes and make up are all about. i appreciate God you are not a member of deeper life, this is so shallow. i've met wonderful members of deeper life, my very very good friends, i thank God i've not personally met your sort. Have you not seen more glamorous weddings in your life? Did that guarantee happiness, did that stop barrenness or divorce? you think what someone wears on the wedding day is what shackles them from happiness, freedom and liberty? i almost do not believe that this is the post dumming boy and co were urging us all to read. What is this nonsense? Are you married?

Had it been that this happened to another pastor like Lazarus Mouka, deeper life members would have piecesed him. They will talk and talk and talk untill their arses starts talking. Only God knows what they would have said. Now, it has happened to Deeper Life and they are defending their pastor, trying to sweep it under the carpet. Thank God for the media, it would have been cleverly underplayed.

Only God knows what they would have said, then you go ahead to tell us what they would have said. Oh, you must be god. Like i earlier said, all this threads na bad belle from people who want the church to go down. It would not happen. Deeper life recorded their highest attendance in their monthly programmes just last week. My pal was in a traffic jam from there and got home like 12 in the night. It has NEVER happened since he had been going. Stay there and be wishing, even the gates of hell cannot prevail against the church of God.

My respect for him has gone from 70% to -20%. He should be disciplined and suspended for sitting quietly, consenting to that wedding, just like the Jamaican national overseer. If God is still interested in DL, HE will raise somebody far better than him. Nobody is indispensable. Kumuyi should get off there for some time it will help us to recover easily, retaining him as GS for now is still amounting to another double standard, an unfair treatment, since the Jamaican overseer, has been suspended. A lot of pastors in deeper life has been disciplined for an offence far lesser. PLEASE HE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO LIVE BY EXAMPLE.

Now, i'm bored. You need a good job.

Deeper life should go and put the church in order, making sure that those bunch of over pampered kids, did not give birth before 9 months of their wedding. They should counsel, monitor and nurtur them so that they should not fight and divorce. Because that will finish the already dented image of the church. A woman who can shamelessly, globally and overtly disobey an old constituted organisation, she grew up in, with alacrity, without minding whose ox is gored, doesnt seem like an ideal virtuous, submisssive wife to me.

What? Even atheists are wishing them a happy married life. Here you are wishing they will divorce, and that they have committed fornication. i shouldn'even be replying your post. Now, i understand how someone can really be worse than an infidel.

Maybe God has seen these lack of integrity, far before we do and raised a new pastor in the person of Lazarus Mouka for himself and us.

I wish, finally someone will just tell me that this is not true, that it didnt happen. I wish I can wake up and find all this a dream.

Kai, na waoh! am stranded. I never imagined nor expected this from a family we boast of and look up to.

PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR THIS WRITEUP, IF THAT WORLDLY WEDDING DID NOT HAPPEN AFTER ALL.

Colin.

Don't be stranded, simply repent. And get good Bible teaching instead of monitoring and waiting for other believers to fall or make mistakes.

DrummaBoy: At the risk of hoping you will understand, I will reason with you on this post of yours.

i forgive you at this time.

How does what you have written differ from the title of the thread. Thread is titled Kumuyi offer to resign over son's wedding controversy. You say he offered to resign. That is, when their leadership met, he offered to resign. Is there any difference here. Or there is a challenge with comprehending English somewhere. But that is not my main grouse with your post. Let's consider the others:

Open your eyes please. The title of this thread is "Kumuyi Offers To Resign over Son's Wedding Controversy"
Offers i.e offer with an 's'. In english grammar, offered is past tense, while offers is continuous tense. From my understanding of the issue on ground, he is not still offering to resign in the continuous, but he offered to in the past, in a supposed meeting. Its only sensational and exaggerated journalism to mislead folks into thinking that that chapter(of resignation) is open. Its not. The OP's link says that offered to resign as the GS but was prevailed upon not to by the leadership of the church. The apology letter states that Kumuyi had earlier declined to be at the events.
i seriously expect it to fly right over though, ifyouknowwhatimean.

Who are the people making these decisions and what yardstick are they using.

Not exactly i business or yours, though i suppose they are the elders of the deeper life church.

Couple is suspended. Pastor of Jamaican church is sacked. Kumuyi is left off the hook. What did the Jamaican pastor do that Kumuyi did not do.

To be fair, Kumuyi is probably left off the hook because he is their General Superintendent. i guess that is not a very common position, duh. He is worthy of double honour.
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.
Also, the main 'defaulter' if she can be called that, is the daughter of the jamaican pastor. Its her dressing that is in question.
Not to forget that the jamaican pastor is the overseer of the church in which the wedding was conducted.
And there is something called leader's discretion

They both had children who wedded breaking church rules. They both attended the wedding at parent and pastors. They both kept mute at the traditional and the church wedding, but alas, one is sacked because he is a mere pastor and the other is left off the hook bc he is the GS.

Answered already above. Sorry, hate it or love it, they do not have the same status. Not before God, not before men. Paul and Timothy are not mates, neither is Peter and Mark, or you and John the baptist. And again, not forgetting that it is actually the jamaican pastor's jurisdiction as it were. Similar occurences have been happening unchecked under his watch. He took the lady from home to the church. Kumuyi most likely met them at the church.

Did you read what the Colins Adua wrote? Apparently disquising with an alias, but certainly a deeper lifer (bc he is using cliches that only members of that church would know), accuses the Deeper life leadership of double standard.

Sorry, i'm not here to discuss or notice colins, but don't worry, i will comment on his post later since it makes you healthier.

Because, in his own words Pastors in that assembly have committed less offences and have been punished. Why not the GS?

Do two wrong things make a right? Do you think a parent should be disciplined by man for an adult child's behaviour? If no, why do you want this wrong to be done to kumuyi? You would rather the wrong tradition continue. If it continues yopu complain, if it doesn't you still complain. Sorry, they are not living to please you.

Kumuyi proposed the resignation because he was trying to maintain the principles of the church, albiet in a hypocritical way because he does not need to "suggest" whether he should resign or not. If he feels he has failed as a parent, he should simply resign and go live on his pension and not play to the gallery requesting to resign.

You need to learn how(or pray to) to read without letting your emotions hinder your comprehension. You are supposing and assuming things BTW.

The reason why the issue has become such an overblown matter is because the DL church has been guilty of overblowing issues themselves. Making a mountain out of nothing like dressing and make ups and here the chicken has simply come home to roost.

No, the reason why it has overblown is the crave of the depraved to see the downfall of others. If little mistake is made from any popular figure, it is usually overblown. We've seen such on this forum with Oyedepo, Adeboye and others.

That is the height of childish talk. Most people commenting on this matter have nothing to compete with DL on.

Massive fail. most people commenting have had issues with deeper life either as members, former members, relatives and friends to members, and the over populous busybodies around social media.

The point most are trying to make is for the church to stop its hypocritical acts and double standards. If the son of the GS can fail on a small matter of dressing at wedding, where he should know better, We can assume that the GS himself has not taught his children the ways he has imposed on the whole church and if a man cannot govern his own home, he is not fit to pastor a church, saith the holy scripture. KUMUYI SHOULD TAKE THE WISE STEP AND RESIGN!

No, your point is that the deeper life church should scatter and you don't care. Your point is that Kumuyi must resign as it would make your handler happier. you don't care whether he is right or wrong, you want him wrong by all means. You want revenge. Why would you want him to resign if it is such a small matter to you? Do you insist that people must resign over small matters? Is that what you do at work, or anywhere? Why do you think it the WISE STEP for Kumuyi to resign? His messages are a threat to your family? Why are you ready to assume that Kumuyi cannot govern his own home? Are you a man or a boy? If a man, a married man, does your father govern you? Kumuyi's son is not a kid or a boy, he is a man. They don't live together since years now. Kumuyi has shown him the way he should go.

heading is misleading. Kumuyi is not offering to resign in the present continuous, he offered to resign. That is, when their leadership met, he offered to resign, but the decisions made was the suspension of the couple. Issue overblown out of proportion IMHO. So many folks are just interested in vengeance and in the downfall of the dl church and leader, bad belle go soon burst oh.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verse affirms and emphasizes the centrality of Jesus Christ. We have peace with God because we are justified by faith, and that justification is through our Lord and Master Jesus Christ. The previous verse just went through telling us that Jesus was raised/resurrected FOR/SO THAT we would be justified. Justification, Atonement, Redemption, Forgiveness of sins, Repentance, Grace, Faith. these concepts are what happened/happens on the road to salvation. They are not exactly synonyms(alternative word, alternative expression, other word, substitute, replacement). They are different but intertwined. Yet, as simple as the gospel seemingly is, these are some of the mighty transactions that take place in the spirit when we accept Jesus into our lives. The passages we have been treating have been quite particular about Justification. Like i've earlier said, justification means to be righteoused as it were. It means to be just, declared right, aligned, morally correct. Jesus gave us justification. Justification is different from forgiveness, higher than forgiveness. Forgiveness of sins is all they had in the old testament. Forgiveness is not exactly new testament, they already had it from the old covenant. Psalm 103 talks of blessing the Lord Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases. They had forgiveness by the blood of the lamb, they even had healing. But all these came in Christ's package too with MUCH MORE. Forgiveness is for the criminal, the sinner. you are forgiven of your sins and crimes. You have done wrong, and deserve to be punished but have been forgiven. But in the issue of justification, the wonder is that you are not a criminal, you are right, you are just, you are righteous. As in, it means that God does not see or look at you as a poor,wretched forgiven sinner who should probably be in prison or facing firing squad, or in court. God looks as you as not having done any sin, He looks at you as RIGHT, reasonable, righteous. This is done, accomplished through Jesus Christ. His death on the cross gave you forgiveness, His resurrection gave you justification. They are both obtained through faith in Him. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. You have peace with God. you as a believer are not an offender before God, or a debtor or former debtor even. What a joy, what a relief! You now how forgiven debtors behave before the person they once owed or offended, that freedom is not exactly there. the conscience still pricks them kind of. but Jesus has given us that freedom, that liberty, that peace before God. Alleluia, we come BOLDLY before the throne. This is God's purpose, this is the price Jesus paid, it is absurd when christians are cringing and confessing weakness and unworthiness "oh i'm a wretched sinner, a worm, worse than this and that". This is living below the standard, the privilege, the grace. We have peace with God. This is the gospel....

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

By Jesus also, we have access into grace by faith. Faith is critical to the christian life. The just shall live by faith. Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to God. He that comes to God MUST believe. Forgiveness is by faith, justification is by faith, Access is by faith, All the wonderful blessings in the kingdom are by faith.
2 And that's not all: We throw open our doors to God and discover at the same moment that he has already thrown open his door to us. We find ourselves standing where we always hoped we might stand — out in the wide open spaces of God's grace and glory, standing tall and shouting our praise.
(from THE MESSAGE Bible)
The christian life is also a life of joy and hope. The hope of glory makes us to rejoice, that is eternity to be concise.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

And we do not only glory in eternity, we also glory in the present. In the present there might be troubles or tribulation. Jesus said that in the world, we have tribulation. Tribulations here simply refers to troubles, suffering, affliction, not the coming Great Tribulation. Its talking of the challenges and troubles that we face in daily life. This is proper perspective of the christian life. The christian life is not primrily excluded from tribulations, problems or challenges. Jesus did not come to save you from problems of daily life, primarily. So, it becomes wrong to build your foundation on that. i've seen folks who are shattered and disoriented when God does not 'save' them from challenges or problems. That is not the primary purpose or foundation of the gospel, or of Jesus. Jesus came to save you from sin, and from the wrath to come, and from the oppression of the enemy. These are the basics, the foundation, the primary purpose of the gospel and of Jesus coming. If you don't face tribulations as it were, well, lucky you if i may so say. But if you do as is most likely, glory in it.Rejoice, be glad, not gloomy. Not threatening to backslide, or telling us how God has failed you. The Living Bible says We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials CEV says We gladly suffer. This is the normal christian life. this is the fellow who has been justified, and has access and peace with God.

Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Our tribulations, challenges, troubles, problems work patience for us. They are meant to make us patient. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord. Job was not even in the new testament, that is a challenge. Because, we have Jesus, we have complete Bible, we have Holy Ghost, we have justification, and access and etc When we face challenges, the end of God, the purpose or goal of God is to produce patience in us. The purpose of our tests and exams is to grade us, to promote us, to give us a degree or certificate or job or promotion. But some folks see tests and break down, fail, run mental, go on strike. It is not meant to be so. Our tribulations(if we face any) should be something that we see and are glad, and allow it to produce in us patience, and experience and hope. And in the end, we are not ashamed, because the love of God is shed in our hearts. We do not feel shortchanged as one version puts it.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Did you read/hear that? when we were, that is in the past, past tense. when we were without strength. That means, we are now strenghtened. This is so important, so as not to miss the time that we are in. There was a time when we were without strength. But NOW, we have strength, we can do all things through Christ, who strengthens us. We can't afford to be like before when we were without strength. That time was when none understood, none righteous, all gone out of the way, full of cursing and bitterness, open sepulchre, no fear of God. Then Jesus came, in due time, at the rightest time, Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

That Jesus was crucified is not the big deal, two thieves were also crucified with Him BTW. The big deal, the special thing is not even that He was innocent, or that He died in our place. This verse says that such action is scarce but not impossible. Dying for another person is vicarious and heroic. A father may die for his family, or a friend for someone else. The uniqueness of Christ's death is that He was born of a virgin, and was pure and spotless, acceptable for the sacrifice/offering of taking our place.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God loved us while we were yet sinners. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. We didn't do anything right to make Jesus die for us, we could not. This is God's help, divine help, grace. Again, notice that phrase "we were yet sinners" We were, a christian is not still a sinner. We should b=not continue in sin. Jesus came to save us from sin, that was His primary purpose "thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1. A christian is not a sinner, neither should he/she think it humility to constant confessing to be a poor sinner. We WERE sinners, all believers, Paul, the roman believers, we WERE sinners, but Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

NOW, we are JUSTIFIED, righteoused as it were. Being now justified by his blood. There is a MUCH MORE in the new testament. The new covenant is a BETTER covenant. That is, if God can commend His love to us, and send us Jesus to die for us, when WE WERE sinners, How Much More, Now, that we are justified, we will be saved from wrath through the same Jesus. There is a wrath coming. John baptist talked of fleeing from the wrath to come. He said "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. " We have already seen in this epistle that this wrath did not disappear when Jesus came, recall
Rom 1:18a For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Chapter 2 talks of the day of wrath. See also, Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. . Colossians, Thessalonains and Revelations also reiterate this fact. God remains angry with the wicked every day.

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

In Christ, we are saved from wrath, which in itself is a jackpot of some sort. But not only so. The package we get in Christ is inestimable, it is so much, of great advantage, mouth watering. We have healing, forgiveness, justification, and now he mentions atonement. That is, we are made God's friends, reconciled, and exchange has taken place, restoration to divine favour. He mentions this fact of reconciliation and restoration to friendship as there is a past he is about to talk about. There is an history where relationship was broken, and something taken.

shdemidemi: I don't think the bible is saying the same thing you are saying in Rom 4:24. It says 'for us also', I don't believe Paul was referring to scriptures, i believe he was saying imputation of righteousness through faith without works was not for Abraham alone but for all believers of the gospel.

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed (we can get the same put to the account as Abraham did. And how do we do it?), if we believe (oh listen, how many different groups have put everything else in there except that? If we do this and if we do that, but beloved that's not what it says. If we believe) on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;"

The same Paul made it known to us in the book of Romans 15:4


4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope. 4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

errrhh, i think you just contradicted yourself in the bolded. You are trying to say that only Genesis 15 was written "for us" and you end up quoting scriptures that state that WHATEVER was written, not just Genesis 15. All was written for OUR.

shdemidemi: You did not answer my question bro.

Then you may want to put it up in full perspective on a new thread, thanks.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Are they dancing?

yawns @the drummer boy
let me get this right please, sinners that i know that liked Jesus became his followers, name any. The sinners that remained crucified Him. Where are the sinners that like frosb and what has it profited them? There are many sinners that like musicians, football stars, fashola and jonathan. Bros, is that a proof of their christiness or whatever?

DrummaBoy: I am surprised that Alexleo and co think we are here to praise Frosbel. On the contrary, we would notice that there has been more criticism of frosbel on this thread than praise. The OP itself was a scathing critic and maligning of frosbel's person.

For the individual who says atheist and sinners like frosbel, that is further proof of his Christlikeness.

Religion crucified Jesus and it will continue to crucify those like him that dare to challenge the status quo. The bible said ordinary people listened to Jesus gladly. Tax collectors and sinners received him into their homes. They felt comfortable with him. The prostitute that broke the alabaster box carresed his feet with freedom, something the Pharisee could not stand and it is not suprising that modern day pharisees detest people like Jesus.

The core of frosbel teaching is a call to freedom. It is a biblical call. Those in the zoo of churches, in Tuned Bakare words, cannot stand that kind of theology.

let me get this right please, sinners that i know that liked Jesus became his followers, name any. The sinners that remained crucified Him. Where are the sinners that like frosb and what has it profited them? There are many sinners that like musicians, football stars, fashola and jonathan. Bros, is that a proof of their christiness or whatever?

plappville: Na you sabi, the thread get plenty branches.....Sabbath, jewelry, trouser etc....anyone can be trashed here.

na you bring up and insist on sabbath oh. You and sabbath sha, na only God go separate you.

plappville: Hahaha....so e dey pain? When u are all over my post searching for errors, are u not equally calling me name? Please move ahead. Olodo is ur NL name. E don tia na....

e no pain oh, plap. It doesn't have to pain to be corrected. He has been shown, its up to him to decide what to do. And you too, though you still dey struggle with grammar, not to mention other local language.

2buff: I am no longer shakened by these things.

the purpose was not to shake you into an orgasm, it was to lead you to repentance, duh. Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe in eternity?

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

What will we say that Abraham has found? Abraham is like a turning point for man, a friend of God.It was from Abraham that God started to deal with man continuously, by families, ancestrally, not just individually. It was with Abraham that God made a covenant of circumcision, a covenant Jews prided in. Paul is about to prove something essential to his audience, something that agreed with the teaching that justification is by faith. He is about to establish a relationship between Abraham and us, new covenant believers. His aim is not to show that Abraham had wasted his time or life, or that the jews had wasted their time or life. This verse along with other verses refer to Abraham as OUR father. Other verses confirm this,

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galat 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
1Pe 3:6 Even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
So, Abraham is a father of believers, and we can claim heirloom to his blessings.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
We claim this as brethren of Jesus Christ the son of Abraham.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Notice that phrase "what saith the Scripture?". Not for the first time, Paul refers to the Old Testament as valid scripture that he leans on as proof that he is saying the right thing. In other places, he has used it is written.
Chapter 1, 2, and 3 has shown this, and he still uses that phrase in this chapter. To Paul, and other first century christians, Genesis to Revelation was scripture. It wasn't some obsolete stuff used by jews and judaizers. when Jesus said "Search the Scriptures", When Berean christians searched scriptures to validate messages(Acts17), we should have it in mind that they were hardly referring to Matthew to Revelation. All Believers were students of the scripture, and All Scripture remain, given by divine inspiration.
Now, if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. This verse or sentence should not be taken in isolation, else the message or point passed across might be missed. The christian lane is quite narrow, and one may easily be thrown off into extremism either to the left side or to the right side. To satan, all he wants is that you are thrown off, he hardly cares whether one is thrown to the left or to the right. What God wants is balance and moderation. The left and right ear give proper balance. If just one is functioning, one might lose balance, moderation is key. Two scriptures, Answer not a fool according to his folly, then Answer a fool according to his folly. Not a contradiction, but a balance. Abraham was justified by faith, Abraham was justified by works. Not a contradiction, but a balance.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Some people only hear justified by faith, and bolt off. they fall into the error that whatever they do does not count not knowing that God will judge every man according to his works.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Some people only hear justified by works, and bolt off. They fall into the error that good works will bribe God, not knowing that it is impossible to please God without faith.
Everything in life is like a recipe. The proper technique, prescription and procedure has to be followed to get good toast, or bread, or cake, or whatever. Justification by faith MUST come first, and MUST be followed by justification by works. Abraham was FIRST justified by faith, and then later justified by works. He believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. This is actually Genesis 15 quoted in verse 3.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
This is far before the birth of Isaac. Later on after the birth and growth of Isaac, Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar. This is in Genesis 22. The faith must come first before the works. It is wrong to dwell on works without faith, like most jews. Our righteousness/works are just as filthy rags before God. It is not mixed with faith, or preceeded by faith. On the other hand too, it is wrong to dwell on faith without works because faith without works is dead. faith is supposed to produce works, good works. We are created through faith in Christ Jesus, unto that purpose, good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Its like a ladder, faith is prior step before good works. Paul affirms good works in other scriptures. here in Romans 4, he is laying a foundation. Foundation is not completion of the house. You can't put windows and furniture or electronics with foundation, though they are all needed in the house. The foundation is faith. People missed it by stopping at the foundation, and that is what James was correcting, when he wrote about faith without works being dead. And then he proved the importance of works by using examples from scriptures. Its not a contradiction, all you need is understanding what chapter of the novel, what part of the film, what class in the curriculum you are reading. Paul also spoke on the importance of good works in the christian life, so did Jesus.
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Titus 2:7 In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Titus 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

If Abraham came in with good works first, he would not have been justified before God. The faith justification came first.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

To the person that works(in this context) to be initially justified, the reward is a debt paid by God. Of course, the backdrop of the previous chapters show us that no one can work i.e no one can be solely justified by works. The person that can work needs no grace or divine help. he can do it on his own. But there is none. Actually, Paul brings up the examples of two of the most respected men, Abraham and David. We know they both had their faults, and had to approach God, and actually be accepted having failed. David here talks of forgiveness as we will soon see. But the person who is not working but believing in God (in this context of initial justification, laying the foundation), his faith justifies him. Faith saves him. By grace, we are saved through faith. That is a paraphrase of these two verses. Not of works. This is salvation, this is foundation. Its not talking about all through the christian life. The christian is saved to show forth good works. Your good works glorify God if you are saved by grace through faith. Your good works are filthy rags before God if you are not yet saved or justified by faith. But once saved, you are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Your light is to shine that others may see your good works and glorify God.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Abraham and David are the fathers of Jesus as it were. They are our progenitors.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Like our fathers, we should tow the line of faith for justification, not the line of works. Our connection is through faith in the Lord Jesus and by grace. He quotes the Psalms in this case for support of what he is saying. The early christians spoke freely from the old testament bible. They were not sanctimoniously pushing it away like many do today.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Here is Paul, putting the pieces and threads together. He is tying up the Abraham and david experience into one. The blessedness, the justification is before the work (circumcision is the example of work in this instance).

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

This is already mentioned above. Abraham was initially justified before circumcision. Circumcision happened after, circumcision is Genesis 17, justification by faith, being 'righteoused' by believing happened in Genesis 15. So before the good works of circumcision and sacrifice of your Isaac, there should be justification by faith.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

The good work of circumcision by Abraham is a seal on his justification by faith. Works are a seal on living faith. It is a dead faith that believes God without doing nothing. James says that the devils also believe and tremble. This point Paul has made weakens the position the jews had/have that they are superior because they are circumcised. He shows them that what they actually need first, is the foundation of faith. The just shall live by his faith.

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Again, Abraham is not only father to the circumcision, the jews, but is also father to them who are yet uncircumcised, if they walk in the steps of that faith. We need to walk in the steps. This is the step Abraham walked, that David walked, and that Jesus Christ was. And we are called to follow His steps. He was the Son of David, the Son of Abraham. We should also be in the steps of faith.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

13 That famous promise God gave Abraham — that he and his children would possess the earth — was not given because of something Abraham did or would do. It was based on God's decision to put everything together for him, which Abraham then entered when he believed.
(from THE MESSAGE)

Again, here is another verse reminding us that we are not initially justified by the law. We are justified through faith. The promise was given before the law.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

If the law is the way to justification i.e if keeping the law is the way to justification, faith is made void, the promise of God to Abraham is made useless, as a loophole has been found to justification as it were. And of course, nobody wants that, the jew does not want that, the non-jew does not want that. Thankfully, it is not that as well. We are heirs of the promise by faith, not by the law. To remind you, no one can fulfill the law to be heirs. Not Moses, not David, not even Elijah. Remember the previous chapter, there is none righteous etc.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The law brings punishment, whatever law. When laws are broken, there is punishment. The law generically brings punishment, not blessing. Because transgression is associated with it. Its not saying that people don't commit sin if they don't know Moses'laws. the verse is more general than that. People were sinning before Moses was born, whether they have Moses'laws or no. Bible says the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was very grievous. There was sin also in the days of Noah. There was no law of Moses then.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

There you have him again, Abraham the father of us all, both jews and gentiles. The promise is not sure to all of us if it is by law. Not everyone has the law, and nobody can even fulfill the law to save his life. But everyone has faith. God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Jesus said faith was so simple, it is only. Only believe. It is of faith to the end i.e to the goal that the promise might be sure to everybody.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Here is the connection and proof that we are all included, jews and gentiles. Abraham ia a father of many nations, not just a father of the jews or Israel. A character of God is given as One who quickens the dead. Its in continuous tense. What God did before for Abraham and any other, He remains able to do and quicken in your life.

Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

A pep talk on faith follows. Wonderful and refreshing, like water after the hard talk(s). The verses are straight enough and derived from the old testament Bible's account of a part of Abraham's living faith.

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Not to bore you, it is repeated yet again that faith was imputed to Abraham for righteousness. It was credited to Abraham. A life of faith is what we are to live as children of God and of faithful Abraham. It is not enough to believe in Genesis 15, we continue believing God to the end. Faith is not only for salvation, we continue to believe unto the end. Many today believe God for salvation, but don't believe after, they are ruled by their senses and their works. No, faith does not stop. It continues to get credited to your account, imputed. Without faith, it is impossible to please God, not only at salvation or foundation or justification. faith is for life, the just shall live by his faith.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

Paul says these things were not written for his sake alone. It is written for us also. Genesis 15 was written for us also. The whole of Genesis was written for us also. The whole of scriptures are written for us also. Some people take scriptures and say it was only written for a particular person or group or time. All scripture is profitable. They are our examples. They are not written for his sake alone, but for us also. Lets learn from this. Jesus Christ knew the scriptures were written for Him. He showed His followers the things that were written in all the Scriptures concerning Himself. We ought to follow in His steps. Paul talked of all scriptures to Timothy a gentile, the Bereans were gentiles who searched the scriptures. Jesus also said to search the scriptures. We should not allow anyone or any 'wisdom'to cheat us from having the totality of the scriptures. Jesus died(was delivered) for our sins, and resurrected for our justification. Without resurrection, we would not have being justified.

Pastor Kun: Evidently Frosbel as ruffled a lot of feathers and exposed a lot of heresy being practised/taught in the name of christianity. It's no surprise he is being persecuted, it comes with the territory.

@Frosbel
Keep up the good work and may God continue to give you wisdom.

satan has ruffled many feathers in heaven and earth, adds nothing positive to him. Christians are not sent to go and be trouble makers. Evidently, you have little idea what christian persecution is. boko haram, fashola, jonathan, th josh, oyedepo, muslims, atheists etc get more stick as it were.