₦airaland Forum

well, well, wello. Such a disappointment, we've been expecting answers from the Op and friends questions to Jesus the chief teacher and preacher of hell, still NO COMMENTS. Does it mean these guys don't/can't talk to Jesus? i'll assume that they are shy or faithless. Anyways, to leave yall inexcusable as usual, lemme 'reply' the OP. One reason among others why i didn't answer the OP was an amusing phrase used in the OP. It says and i quote

The following questions are designed to show the utter fallacy of the contention that eternal torment is a scriptural doctrine.

And true to these words, many pages ended up showing us all the utter fallacy of the contention. There ought to be no such contention. Eternal torment is a scriptural teaching.
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
These verses are not fun, they are not nice. They are gory, they testify of torment. What's worse than having all limbs amputated? Is that fun? can you ever say amputation is better than fun? NO, but amputation is better than ETERNAL fire.

Those who reject this teaching are often accused of 'twisting the scriptures'. It is those who believe in eternal torment who must twist the scriptures, all the while accusing others of doing the same. We ask those who believe eternal torment to answer the following questions honestly and scripturally!

Vice versa. Those who believe this teaching are accused of twisting the scriptures and having zero knowledge or what was that stuff frosb uttered?
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
don't you just love Jesus? He's the creator of hell and the chiefo, remember.

I. On what scriptural authority is the Greek word Gehenna, literally 'the valley of the sons of Hinnom' and the city garbage dump in the time of Christ, translated as 'hell'?

Scriptural authority? On what scriptural authority is any Greek word translated to English at all? Hell is an english word, gehenna is not. The english word 'Hell' denotes suffering, an inferno, a state or place of extreme pain or misery, or something or somebody that causes extreme pain or misery. Like when you say "i'll beat the hell out of you" or "that place is hell". It's a word that means complete inconvenience, of the possible worst kind. And that is what Gehenna signified to the hearers. Read the following on Gehenna for instance,
The word gehenna, γέεννα geenna, commonly translated “hell,” is made up of two Hebrew words, and signifies the valley of Hinnom. This was formerly a pleasant valley near to Jerusalem, on the south. A small brook or torrent usually ran through it and partly encompassed the city. This valley the idolatrous Israelites devoted formerly to the horrid worship of Moloch, 2Ki_16:3; 2Ch_28:3. In that worship, the ancient Jewish writers inform us, the idol of Moloch was of brass, adorned with a royal crown, having the head of a calf, and his arms extended as if to embrace anyone. When they offered children to him they heated the statue within by a great fire, and when it was burning hot they put the miserable child into his arms, where it was soon consumed by the heat; and, in order that the cries of the child might not be heard, they made a great noise with drums and other instruments about the idol. These drums were called תּף toph, and hence a common name of the place was Tophet, תּפת Tophet, Jer_7:31-32.
After the return of the Jews from captivity, this place was held in such abhorrence that, by the example of Josiah 2Ki_23:10, it was made the place where to throw all the dead carcasses and filth of the city, and was not unfrequently the place of public executions. It became, therefore, extremely offensive; the sight was terrific; the air was polluted and pestilential; and to preserve it in any manner pure, it was necessary to keep fires continually burning there. The extreme loathsomeness of the place; the filth and putrefaction; the corruption of the atmosphere, and the lurid fires blazing by day and night, made it one of the most appalling and terrific objects with which a Jew was acquainted. It was called the gehenna of fire, and was the image which our Saviour often employed to denote the future punishment of the wicked. from Albert Barnes' notes on the Bible. i don't think there is any english word more hellish than 'hell'. It makes a purrfect translation and passes the message across excellently. It takes scholars willing to read stuff like Albert Barnes note and co to understand the context and picture of "the valley of the sons of WHO AGAIN". Every english literate knows the meaning of 'hell'.

II. Are those you teach ever made aware of the fact that Gehenna is a proper noun and the title of a literal place which exists on earth to this day?
V. Do those who teach the doctrine of eternal torment make clear to their hearers that they really believe in two hells; one temporary (Hades) and one permanent (Gehenna)?

i'll answer these and others tomorrow by God's grace. lemme sample how long or short to make it meanwhile. Consider the below from frosb the OP just yesterday, talking from both sides of the mouth. https://www.nairaland.com/1156627/atheists-please-tell-us-conversion/8#13842577
I have not started to address all the points you and co brought up in this post, but let me summarize a few points because of time :

1. You have a personal duty to research truths for yourself, no one can do this for you.

this exercise is exercising.

chei.

the premises of the eternity of the Dbases and the elderlike pants-pulling exercise.

he needs attention na. see him begging to be quoted.

hehehehe

this should be moved to the jokes section.

hahahahaha oya goshen wear those pants now. it's one thing to be caught pants down, it's another thing to stay pants down. You're getting old, lolololol. And don't call my name any kain how, you hear my friend.

I'm satisfied on his behalf, he lost that ability awhile ago.

I can sense my chance to turn water to wine at last, where's the party at?

let me understand you better
moderator, is it wrong to quote
another person? plus I said I
was the only one you warned
with a ban FOR DERAILING. How
I stand out when you said
majority derail is amusing.
muskeeto's abuses did not
'stand out'?
if possible, please define
"derail" at least as it applies to
nl forum rules.

let's form a big circle, like your mother's cooking pot.

deebrain: @Image123
U wont be able to stand it for long here when name calling starts.
Stop refering to those answering u objectively as "gang" (in yr expression-"frosbel and his gang" )...

Its not about what makes sense. ITS ABOUT WHAT YR BIBLE SAYS.

What really is yr issue? Why repeating issues? Even citing Rev 14vs 11 is very annoying! Its the same term and expression used for the then destruction of Sodom (Jude 7) "eternal fire", "eternal torment" etc and SODOM IS NOT BURNING TODAY! (WHICH THE OP LISTED!) When u read a verse in yr bible-research on what the verse really means before coming here and re-listing bible verses.

Instead of u asking what a term or verse means, u throw it up again, against the explanation of the term. Pathetic.

If you want to call me names, no need to threaten me about it. i felt frosb and the gang was easier and easy to depict. i didn't say "frosb and HIS gang". It's easier than mentioning all your names, and i didn't want to coin stuff like anti-hell. But on putting myself in your shoes, i realise no real christian would want to be so associated with frosb. I'm truly sorry. I wasn't initially particular about what makes sense, i'm only throwing back the argument that folks give that it doesn't make sense for God to punish people forever. So you agree that your position on judgement is senseless? My Bible does not say that God will raise the dead sinners and kill them again. My Bible says,
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
These scripture passages show us plainly from the same writer the meaning of and what he meant by "forever and ever"
citing Rev 14vs 11 is very annoying to you? i should not quote Bible again, you want me to quote who, pastors? Rev 14v11 tells us without mincing words what will happen to sinners. Love it or hate it, THERE WILL BE weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrah are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. If that's had for you to believe, it's not my fault. You can ask Jesus to increase your faith. Sodom and Gomorrah refers to the inhabitants, not just the land. Just like Israel refers to the inhabitants of Israel, not just the land.
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Isa 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.
Isa 16:6 We have heard of the pride of Moab; he is very proud: even of his haughtiness, and his pride, and his wrath: but his lies shall not be so.
All the bolded above refer to the inhabitants of those places. It is rthe same thing in Jude 7 and in the places Jesus talked of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is referring there to the resurrection of the people/inhabitants of sodom. Jude 7 actually proves that sinners are suffering in hell awaiting judgement, just like some angels are suffering in hell awaiting judgement.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. PAST
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. PRESENT
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffer[b]ing[/b] the vengeance of eternal fire. PRESENT
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. PRESENT
Notice the change in tenses from past to present in the verses above. Please, don't fight the facts or castigate versions, translations and the messenger(me). Do a sincere and prayerful study instead of aiming for winning the argument or having the last word.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

engrtee: Permision to derail the thread

ask the mod,

let me understand you better moderator, is it wrong to quote another person? plus I said I was the only one you warned with a ban FOR DERAILING. How I stand out when you said majority derail is amusing. muskeeto's abuses did not 'stand out'?
if possible, please define "derail" at least as it applies to nl forum rules.

@tislight
you'll never get or understand what I said or what anybody said if you continue in such bizarre way of cutting posts into incomplete phrases and attacking them. Why not take your time to read through, then answer back objectively. You're not even giving ears for a complete sentence before you quote and comment,its impossible to discuss that way. And your posts are also long by the way. i can most easily answer in one liners and boring trites if that's what will make you happier.

Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.
Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Goshen360: What truth are you talking about? Answer the question I asked you and stop being sentimental about the issue.

Sentimental? That word just got a new meaning! i answered your OP and you did not even know it. You don't need an answer to any more question.

This thread is with reference to this thread https://www.nairaland.com/1156627/atheists-please-tell-us-conversion where i was ridiculously threatened with a ban after frosb(most likely) reported me to the moderator. It's a thread where "all and sundry" were going offtopic including the OP but only Image123 was warned of a ban for going offtopic. It is a thread where i was freely abused and insulted and the moderator did not moderate. i'm okay with the insults, but offended at the bias. Moderator, kindly do what you are paid to do, and not just what you are told to do.

On to replying muskeet here since i'm told not to reply him/her there.
i need to say that i tried to keep my posts civil, and did not abuse anyone on that thread. i wish offtopic be explained to me except it means not giving a deconversion story. If that's the case, then maybe no one should make comments on the thread except give deconversion stories.

Earlier, I called you a HYPOCRITE, LIAR. Let's add REETARD to that list.

this are the words of muskeeto to me in that thread https://www.nairaland.com/1156627/atheists-please-tell-us-conversion/4#13795335
This contravenes forum rules, but we can safely assume that the moderator did not see it.

You usually have nothing to say, till MUSKEETO comments... I should be asking you the same questions. Evidence abounds on NL. Probably my atheism burdens you. Don't blame yourself.

i guess this is a fantasy as i don't know what muskeeto is talking about here. Anyone can click on my username and check my posts to see if these lies hold. Muskeet is hardly in 50% of the threads i post on. how he/she confuses me as a stalker is becoming confusing.

If you knew how to read TITLES, you'd see PRE-CONVERSION clearly written at the top of the section you've deliberately quoted out of context. Wtf does PRE-CONVERSION mean to you?

analysis: CONFIRMED REETARD

Are you cherry picking your own posts? You said "I don't blame anyone. I've taken full responsibilities of my actions.", not "I don't blame anyone in my deconversion. I've taken full responsibilities of my actions." You don't have to be converted to blame people. You once tried to say Ghandi wasn't a christian because of christians. In your pre-conversion, you blamed others. Also, i quoted you from your deconversion as well.

Wow, you read stories just the way you read the BIBLE: cherry picking to confirm a bias you already have in your mind. Smh....

analysis: CONFIRMED LIAR

i didn't think it was necessary to quote your whole post. i simply quoted the parts that confirmed that you blamed others. There was no lie in the statements, you tried to blame others.

Up to this point, your obvious BIAS (Being Idiotic and silly) didn't let you notice that the quoted was from events leading up to my conversion. Did you even go through the story? Did you read this part?

There goes another abuse, quite gentlemanly of an atheist or agnostic or whatever you think you are(i think you are just an unbeliever/sinner). i already talked on this pre conversion, deconversion, whatever, the point remains that you blamed others for your state. You didn't realise that "ït's all in your mind"

or your mustard seed brain just decided to skip that?
analysis: CONFIRMED HYPOCRITE

Do we have a moderator on this board?

analysis: NO NEED FOR ANALYSIS. PATIENT CLEARLY HAS A STRONG BIAS COUPLED WITH A LACK OF BASIC COMPREHENSION SKILLS

Here it is again, You agree that there is nothing wrong with the Bible, or at least from other parts of your posts, with the new testament. But you changed not because of the Bible but because nigerians had let you down.. This purple colored statement stands faultless.

It's all in the MIND. Our mind's very powerful, our thoughts are as real as we want them to be.

Feel free to keep trolling... This should serve as testimony to your apparent desire to be noticed on NL.

HINT: Try trolling logicboy, You may get the recognition you desire.

Your thoughts are not my thoughts obviously. Reality has robbed you.

muskeet
i wonder what fills you with bile and indignation in my posts, at least i can reconcile with frosb's as his mentors almost had vicious fits when they encountered Jesus.

Image123: Like i said earlier, its such a shame and saddening that christians begin to query basics of the christian faith without any real hinge. i said not to comment earlier, but will need to.
This is where christianity is been led to in the name of the law. This is not the christian life, salvation, eternal life that Christ died for. That we only obey what we see from Acts to Revelation. This is false doctrine, and strong deceit. The Word of God is unchanging, the standard of God is perfect. Whether you see it in Genesis or in Titus, the Word of God abides for ever. It is a similar issue that most of the folks here had with tithes. They require that you convince them where it is written after calvary before they obey it. This is not christianity. i wonder what and how the first century christians lived then, as they didn't even have the epistles like we do today.
Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Is the above passage old testament and therefore of no relevance to christians? Must one see a parallel of this inside Acts to Revelation before he can know the mind of God?
Restitution. For God's sake, restitution. i didn't imagine i'll have to argue with a CHRISTIAN on the relevance of restitution to the christian life. It has become that bad. And the issue is now that, once there is nobody to speak for, or argue well, then many reader will throw away all caution and previous knowledge, and take a thread as the final authority. It is assumed that once you don't answer, you don't have an answer. Where are the Bereanic christians who did not toss to and fro, and base their christianity or deconversion on threads?
Not to talk much, i"m afraid still that even with what i'm about to stay, those who have the evil heart of unbelief will still manifest. Those who will say Jesus is not Lord because Image123 said Jesus is Lord are around. And it sorrily boils down to how sweet my arguments will be. Well, may God touch those who are sincere and honest in their doubts.
Repentance itself connotes, denotes and implies restitution. Repentance is to be sorry, to change ways. Restitution is giving back, paying back or returning. True repentance of a thief implies that he is sorry for stealing and stops to steal. It is a 180^o turn. Even an atheist knows that stolen money should be returned or apologised for if one is truly repentant. Many hypocrites here were gaga about pastor chris and adeboye returning tithes and offerings from accused persons. Restitution is to have a conscience void of offence. In the new testament, doing God's will is not about obeying Acts to Revelation. doing God's will comes from the grace that the christian has received. In the old covenant, they tried to do God's will to be justified. In the new covenant, we are justified to do God's will. So God's will is not what is changing from Old to New. It is the process.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ordained that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Unfortunately, the christains today are not zealous of good works. They need to be convinced. They know too much than to be fooled.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
Where are the christians that will obey this new testamental advices? Again, i know i'm wasting your time so let me go straight to the OP's

Restitution was practiced by Paul in Acts when he apologised for the man he disrespected.
Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

In Acts, he also said,
Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men.
Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God unto this day.
Anything that disturbed his conscience, he resolved. That's restitution. That when God's spirit, or God's Word, or God's messenger reminds you of something that is wrong and needs correction, that you ask for grace and the leading of God to know what to do. These are the little things that woill make rewards differ in eternity. i'm not saying or preaching that you will not go to heaven for not doing restitution. It is Christ that saves, not works. But you will be rewarded according to your work. The book of Philemon is RESTITUTION. Paul was sending back run away Onesimus to his master, and promised to pay any debt incurred. i'll stop here as i'm certain that all that is needed to believe that restitution was practised in the church is here already.

, i knew they couldn't handle the truth if told. i thank God it was told.

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalm 115:17).

Fortunately, believers will never die according to Jesus.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

your write up is usually contradictory and unusually long.

sorry about length. i try to explain and also to touch everything said instead of picking and choosing sentences without considering context. i will change

Whether it "makes sense" or not does not count here. John saw people that died come back to life...now apologies to john's level of education-he did not see flesh and blood-he saw supposed immortal souls. After they had their judgment, they were packaged into a lake of fire where he saw them perish again. The term "second death" should not make sense to anybody. Whats d essence? Why should God make it look like hollywood (like u say)? But thats what he saw and he gave that modest description.

Oh, making sense does not count again? Most of you build on emotion by saying it is irrational for God to punish people for eternity. i used your approach now and you say it doesn't count? The Bible does not record the bolded. Instead, it says
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

you got it wrong, they are not being raise to be killed as you said and as some translation erroneously put "damnation" but rather to "judgment" as Revelation 20:12 rightly puts it and explains what will happened.

You are supporting my position tislight. Frosb and the gang say that the sinners will be raised and then killed again, but i'm saying NO, that's senseless and unbiblical. What the Bible says and that you just said is that they will be judged. Their sentence will be ETERNAL damnation.

so, when the bible says "all" the dead shall come out, you say it does not make sense abi?

No, i said it doesn't make sense for them to be disturbed. What's with you and selective reading? Why should a sinner that has been dead since 6000years ago be raised, and killed again? Why should death and hell give up all the dead, and then they are killed again. That makes no sense and is not in the Bible. What is in the Bible is that they will be punished forever.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now, people that died due to Adamic sin have paid the wages of their Adamic sins, so, on given another short at life by God because of the grace from Jesus ransom sacrifice for Adamic sin, Since they have not heard about Jesus and the ransom and as such can not call on him to be seved the are given the opurtunity.

How can they call on some one they have not heard of and neither have they been told about Jesus, as such this fundamental basis for judgement has not been applied to them, how then and on what basis are they being judged and condemned forever?

This makes some sense, but most importantly, Where is this in the Bible?

All the bible including your 1901 kingjames v are translated from manuscript that are over a thousand years older. You can still see the way king james abused the word "hell" in the bible from those old manuscript today.

i said and you even quoted 1901 American Standard Version. Hope you see your bias against the KJV?

Using hell to means a place of fire and using it to means grave at other places thereby creating confussion.

The KJV you are fighting with hardly translates the same word as grave. You do err.

Ok, consider, if hell is fire or a place of fire as us in the kingjames bible, why then throw "hell" into the lake of fire? Fire into fire

Consider that the tongue is referred to as a fire, can the tongue be burnt by fire?
Jam 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity; so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

But the translators of kingjames version owing to their bias or tradition wanted to lead people to think that it is "hell fire" and the people inside that is thrown into fire.
*Smh*

You need deliverance of the TB Joshua form. Many other versions translate the same word as hell. Quit hating what you can't match.

No he is not and did not. What you are doing is a misaplication of scriptures.

Please, frosb and the crew, correct this guy for me. He may not listen to me.

tislight
you're getting my attention at last, learning to speak for yourself. I'll respond in due time please.

muskeet
i wonder what fills you with bile and indignation in my posts, at least i can reconcile with frosb's as his mentors almost had vicious fits when they encountered Jesus. But you, i don't quite get yet, perhaps the truth is indeed bitter, I'm looking for the confirmation Bible verse though. I should be back to address your post when I'm less busied. Meanwhile, endeavour to wake up from the fantasy that the world revolves around you. icare.

Thats why they cant answer the atheists. And rather than answer the OP, they are throwing insults.

i want to believe you are not referring to me. Or please, show me the insult thrown.

Are u referring to Bar-Jesus?

The Jesus no one can stop is Jesus Christ the Messiah who preached hell as the grave, a place he also went when he died, a place where the dead "rest in hope" till resurrection.

Acts 2:25-27 - "For David saith concerning him: I foresaw the Lord before my face: because he is at my right hand, that I may not be moved. For this my heart hath been glad, and any tongue hath rejoiced: moreover my flesh also shall rest in hope. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption"

Hope you are not intending to subtract from the Bible? Recvall this?
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
My research using the 1901 American Standard Version gives the word 'hell' thirteen times in its new testament. Eleven times, it is by Jesus, not BarJesus but Jesus the Christ. James mentions once and Peter once. Jesus remains the chief teacher of hell and He even created it. He didn't go to this hell when He died, did He?
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

deebrain: Lets use apostle John's "glasses"...shall we?
So he saw a throne with God (Jesus apparently) sitting on it. And people woke up again from death to be judged. Books were opened and judgements read. He also saw death and hell fire (the place of torment) come for judgement (very striking). Almost all of these were thrown into a burning fire WHERE THEY PERISHED. Thats why he called it second death-PEOPLE RESURRECTED ONLY TO BE KILLED AGAIN.

This is the fun we should be questioning. Why wake/resurrect all the sinners from Adam and then kill them again. Does that make any sense? This is not hollywood/nollywood

My brother, you are mixing up things and just creating confusion for yourself. True the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were physiccal destroyed due to the badness of the people - these people died in that fire and were thus judged. Their judgement is eternal testimony for all.

Burning people eternally in a fire for fun is something God said did not enter his mind.

Jeremiah 19:5 - "They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind".

If it did not enter God's mind at this time to burn people for fun, once wonders when it did and why. Truth is, it's still not on God's mind.

Judgement is not for fun, i don't know where you got that idea. God eternally threw out Adam and Eve from Eden because they ate from a tree, disobeying Him. God sent a lion to kill a man because he ate bread and drank water. God rejected king Saul because he did not kill some animals, God slew Anaias and his wife because they told one lie. God does not play jokes. He's got antecedents, He can make people not to rest day and night forever. He honours His Word more than His name.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
God will not be burning His sons or making any offering in hell fire. This is what you quoted in Jeremiah. God will be punishing His enemies.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Yes this verse talk of the destruction of Jesus body, which he sacrificed soon thereafter - Joh 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up".

Clearly Jesus was killed and died for 3 days. And that really sums up what destruction means - absence of life. Had God not ressurected Jesus, he would have stayed dead:

That's the point. That there can be existence after destruction. Jesus proved that.

Acts 2:25-27 - "For David saith concerning him: I foresaw the Lord before my face: because he is at my right hand, that I may not be moved. For this my heart hath been glad, and any tongue hath rejoiced: moreover my flesh also shall rest in hope. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption" (Douay Rheims).

Notice how in this Acts verses hell is not a place of torment, but where dead humans "sleep" or "rest in hope", including Jesus.

Why do you talk from both sides of the mouth? The OP says that hell teachers know that hell means different things and asked if they make this clear. Why are you acting like hell means one thing when its convenient, and different things when convenient. We all know(it is common knowledge, contrary to folks assertions) that Bible scholars translated different words to mean hell and it is deductible from context. It's the same way other words are translated to mean the same thing, like Life for e.g which could be bios or zoe or psuche, chay etc. Or Heaven which may be the sky or God's abode depending on context. This are all language issues and not someone's attempt to put his/her doctrine into the Bible. Some words have same spelling, different pronunciation etc, its all language complexity. The unguarded attacks of the OP and his ilk on men who have hazarded life, time and career to give us wonderful versions and translations is just satanic.

I'm glad you agree that Death and Hell (grave) will meet their final destruction in the lake of fire ( meaning "there will be no more death/dying" ) . That is exactly what happens to all in the "lake of fire" - final destruction, no longer alive and never brough back to life. You are beginning to get the sense of it.

Eternal tormenting of people just for fun is not on God's mind - far from it.

When therre is no more death, it implies that nobody will die again. That's why it is described with adjesctives like eternal and everlasting. Sinners are WITHOU/outside. They will be existing and gnashing teeth outside the Kingdom of God. It's not a 'were' past, it is continuous.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Like i said earlier, its such a shame and saddening that christians begin to query basics of the christian faith without any real hinge. i said not to comment earlier, but will need to.
This is where christianity is been led to in the name of the law. This is not the christian life, salvation, eternal life that Christ died for. That we only obey what we see from Acts to Revelation. This is false doctrine, and strong deceit. The Word of God is unchanging, the standard of God is perfect. Whether you see it in Genesis or in Titus, the Word of God abides for ever. It is a similar issue that most of the folks here had with tithes. They require that you convince them where it is written after calvary before they obey it. This is not christianity. i wonder what and how the first century christians lived then, as they didn't even have the epistles like we do today.
Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Is the above passage old testament and therefore of no relevance to christians? Must one see a parallel of this inside Acts to Revelation before he can know the mind of God?
Restitution. For God's sake, restitution. i didn't imagine i'll have to argue with a CHRISTIAN on the relevance of restitution to the christian life. It has become that bad. And the issue is now that, once there is nobody to speak for, or argue well, then many reader will throw away all caution and previous knowledge, and take a thread as the final authority. It is assumed that once you don't answer, you don't have an answer. Where are the Bereanic christians who did not toss to and fro, and base their christianity or deconversion on threads?
Not to talk much, i"m afraid still that even with what i'm about to stay, those who have the evil heart of unbelief will still manifest. Those who will say Jesus is not Lord because Image123 said Jesus is Lord are around. And it sorrily boils down to how sweet my arguments will be. Well, may God touch those who are sincere and honest in their doubts.
Repentance itself connotes, denotes and implies restitution. Repentance is to be sorry, to change ways. Restitution is giving back, paying back or returning. True repentance of a thief implies that he is sorry for stealing and stops to steal. It is a 180^o turn. Even an atheist knows that stolen money should be returned or apologised for if one is truly repentant. Many hypocrites here were gaga about pastor chris and adeboye returning tithes and offerings from accused persons. Restitution is to have a conscience void of offence. In the new testament, doing God's will is not about obeying Acts to Revelation. doing God's will comes from the grace that the christian has received. In the old covenant, they tried to do God's will to be justified. In the new covenant, we are justified to do God's will. So God's will is not what is changing from Old to New. It is the process.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ordained that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Unfortunately, the christains today are not zealous of good works. They need to be convinced. They know too much than to be fooled.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
Where are the christians that will obey this new testamental advices? Again, i know i'm wasting your time so let me go straight to the OP's

Restitution was practiced by Paul in Acts when he apologised for the man he disrespected.
Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

In Acts, he also said,
Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men.
Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God unto this day.
Anything that disturbed his conscience, he resolved. That's restitution. That when God's spirit, or God's Word, or God's messenger reminds you of something that is wrong and needs correction, that you ask for grace and the leading of God to know what to do. These are the little things that woill make rewards differ in eternity. i'm not saying or preaching that you will not go to heaven for not doing restitution. It is Christ that saves, not works. But you will be rewarded according to your work. The book of Philemon is RESTITUTION. Paul was sending back run away Onesimus to his master, and promised to pay any debt incurred. i'll stop here as i'm certain that all that is needed to believe that restitution was practised in the church is here already.

musKeeto: Hypocrite. Liar. Puffed up akara. That's what you've been. That's what you remain. I sincerely hope the 'holy spirit' you claim lives in you opens your eyes to your uselessness..

Well, at least there is evidence.

This was a topic I opened during that period : www.nairaland.com/794217/one-believe-christ-not-christianity

I envy you guys who are able to look beyond all the ills of the world and focus on the Cross. That's good. You're a good soldier of Christ. May the good Lord keep you.
I couldn't continue to be a hypocrite.

And I never, ever, blamed my actions on external forces.

On a sidenote:
What's worse is those who claim to
truly believe in the faith see this,
see the hypocrisy of their own
pastors and fellow members.. BUT
SAY NOTHING!! How can you
comfortably worship God in the
same "house" with people who
clearly do not have any respect for
your "Lord"? Doesn't that make
you a hypocrite too?!! - Kails, NL 2013

Goshen, Anony, davidylan... Few christians on NL that do not hesitate to point out doctrines that do not stand up to scriptural standards. You, on the other hand, are just a chameleon lurking in the background. At least we know where JoAgbaje stands.

Woahhh, gentleman atheist abi na agnostic. Seems i have a way of messing up your whole being. Wetin i carry, wetin you throw? You said
"I don't blame anyone. I've taken full responsibilities of my actions. Whatever will be, will be.

I'll desist from abusing or mocking you ". This you did not do in your story, you tried blaming God and others.You said

Mom wiped OAU Ile-Ife off my jamb form without my knowing and inserted the name of one of the private Christian universities. Summer break's over and I resume classes with lots of anger in my heart. As expected, it's almost a repeat of my secondary school if not worse. It didn't take long. I became an atheist without realizing it. The Bible, and religion as a whole, meant nothing to me.

End of the first semester and I return home for the Xmas holidays worse than what I was when I left. A deep hatred for pastors. A deep hatred for church. A deep hatred for religion. A week later, I lost my siblings and friends in the Sosoliso plane crash....

What exactly is this to imply or impress in readers if not blame?

See prayer and fasting for God to show up in my room and push me away from darkness.

And He didn't show up, right? If He had, you won't be an unbeliever? Who is to blame? Your unbeliever friends will say God, as that is the message you passed whether you know it or not.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

I was at my wit's end and couldn't stand the restrictions and hypocrisy any longer. I moved back home and registered at an institute for a diploma in software engineering.

Hypocrisy of others is not an excuse for drawing back. there is hypocrisy everywhere. Jesus Christ lived with hypocrites for 33 years, He still pleased God. He was meant to be the One you followed and looked to, not to men.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psa 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Two months later, some questions began to rise up in my mind. By this time, I had seen more temples, shrines and gods than I had seen while growing up in Nigeria. I began to feel an emptiness in reading the Word. I felt there had to be something deeper, more meaningful, a greater purpose to Christianity, something it offers that no other religion can offer. I still believed in the fallacy that Christianity is morality; it isn't. People can be honest, truthful, kind without ever meeting or knowing Jesus and have a functioning and developing system that's favorable to them without Christianity. They may miss heaven, but earth will be fun. Same can't be said of Nigeria. But I digress

Here was the prodigal moment where you began to miss it. i won't go into that not to derail our little talk.

The major hospitals in the city have a lot of African patients, majority of whom are Nigerians. Our problems are financing their solutions.. yet almost all Nigerians look down upon the Indians for worshiping cows and all other kind of animals. This makes no sense whatsoever.

Does God hate development? Has religion IMPROVED our lives in Nigeria? Will it ever do so? The more I read, the more I realised I'd begun to lose faith in the Bible. If people live by the precepts the Bible upholds, especially Christ's words, the world would be a better place.

Here is the thing again. You agree that there is nothing wrong with the Bible, or at least from other parts of your posts, with the new testament. But you changed not because of the Bible but because nigerians had let you down.

Months of confusion over if 'tongues' still exist or not. Fasting and praying to 'acquire' these tongues. That was all over. I'd hit one TRUTH. It's all in the MIND. Our mind's very powerful, our thoughts are as real as we want them to be.

You didn't get the thing, so God is to blame, not you. What of others who got it, or claimed to get it?

Ihedinobi: Forgive me for my tardiness, please. I've been a bit under the weather. I just don't want to hold up the discussion any longer than I already have, so I'll offer my explanation now.

The Church is the bride of the Lord Christ. She is also called the Jerusalem above or the heavenly Jerusalem and the mother of us all. Between Jesus and her, all believers are born. She is the fullness of Him that filleth all in all, and we can say that she is clothed in the glory of the One Whose Glory, like the light of the Sun, is unborrowed but all His Own. She is His co-ruler. Through her, the Lord governs His dominions, hence the crown of twelve stars (in the Scriptures, the number twelve symbolizes government). She is no mere tool for her Lord but is one with Him in Purpose and Nature, of her the Scriptures say that the Lord will be glorified or admired in His Saints. She is the Glory of her Lord. Like the moon, she reflects her Lord, however, unlike the moon, she is herself the expression of her Lord quite like the light of the sun is the expression of the sun. For this reason, she can be said to be positionally greater than the moon which is only a mirror. So, it is in order that she be described as having the moon under her feet.

If all the above cannot be faulted, then we can say that the man-child she produces is a company of believers. It cannot be the Lord Christ Himself because He is the Husband of the Church not the child. The 144 000 are described as the firstfruits of the Lamb. The man-child is presented as being caught up to God's Throne at birth, apparently in preference to the woman's other children. But remember that the mother of us all and therefore her children reigns with Christ. So the Throne of God is not the exclusive purview of the man-child, his brethren have a share as well in It. But he has the share of the firstborn. The man-child exercises the full right and power of the Throne of God. That is his inheritance, his brethren, on the other hand, exercise varying degrees of that right and power according to their attainment in Christ. The man-child is the group of believers of all generations who press on unwaveringly till they have attained to the full purpose of God's call. They are only another representation of the 144 000.

I think that brings us to the questions I asked you about the rewards. But before we delve into those, do you have any problems with my depositions concerning the woman and the man-child?

One more thing about the man-child that actually destroys the argument that it is the Lord Christ is that the child was caught up to God's Throne at birth. Evidently, that did not happen with our Lord Jesus, but Scriptures speak of a coming of age of believers, an attainment to the age of responsibility at which time we are assured of a crown. Remember Paul saying that there was laid up for him a crown after his race was done. The man-child is a compound word. It speaks of maturity as well as youth. Consider that the Church has been travailing and groaning and in upheaval for very long now, why is this so? She is suffering birth pangs: she is birthing her first son. Maturity is an individual fight for believers but the Throne is a collective responsibility, therefore as each believer attains unto the full maturity, he is in waiting until his brethren come of age too. As soon as their number is completed, together they are entrusted with all the responsibilities of God's Throne. So even though it is a company of full-grown men, it is a new-born baby when their number is completed.

Ok, now I wait.

Thanks my brother, i no mind the 'tardiness'. How are you doing now, hope better? i feel your poimts on the woman being the church, but it could still be Israel, as most of what you gave are equally applicable to Israel. Jehovah is Israel's Sun. Compare Psalm 84:11, Psa_27:1; Isa_60:19,20; Mal_4:2. On twelve symbolising government in scriptures, i'm not very aware of that except for of course Israel which has 12tribes. i don't fault your paragraph though i'm still hooked to that scripture that pictured/symbolised Israel as consisting stars, sun and moon.
Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
The patriachs of Israel are here typified as stars, moon and sun, and the woman in Revelation is clothed with this symbols.
The other paragraphs are quite breath-taking to me. i may need some time perhaps to digest and study on that. It has always seemed more straightforward and plain to me that the woman is Israel and the man-child Jesus. Consider again below,
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
i think/thought this a picture of the expectation of the Messiah by Israel.

Luk 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luk 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come or look we for another?
Gen 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messiah, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
Mat 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
This on the way Satan wanted to kill Jesus as soon as He was born. See Matthew 2. The 144,000 were sealed from hurt.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
It says the woman brought forth a man child. It's easier and straight to see A man child Jesus than to see man child 144000 which were likely made up of male and female.
i do not see where the passage states that the child was caught up to God's Throne at birth. It only says her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. The passage is consistent with Jesus in the scripture below,
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Of course, i agree that we the saints will rule with Christ as Rev 2v26,27 also says. It's more consistent with Jesus who was caught up in the ascension.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
This fits Israel more than the church. i don't think the church has any wilderness runnings to do. i know the Israelites were warned by Jesus to flee ata certain time. So also the prophets.
Jer 6:1 O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Beth-haccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction.
Jer 4:29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
It's more practical for a nation Israel's inhabitants to flee to a particular place prepared her of God, than for the church universal to flee to a particular place.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Again, it mentions man child. Doesn't refer to firstfruits or firstborns(a position Israel can also fit into)

These are some of my simple reasons why i think the woman to be Israel as a nation(not the man Jacob), and the man child to be Jesus.

@cyrexx
nice pic. perspectives differ.

musKeeto: Thank you for realising I made my decision. I don't blame anyone. I've taken full responsibilities of my actions. Whatever will be, will be.

I'll desist from abusing or mocking you just to honor this thread. Please don't be a .....

you tried blaming God, then Christians who you felt were below, then the whole of religion. At the end, it's your choice. I warned you.