₦airaland Forum

why frosb open this thread na? that anony thread don do na? anyway, na your pattern be that, multiplicity and duplicity. There's nothing here that hasn't already been addressed in the other thread, but here you're talking as if totally oblivious to the other thread.

@Anony

Now this is what I believe we really should be discussing about. i.e. whether there is a conscious hell of torment before there is a lake of fire or whether there is a sleep until resurrection to life or second death.

I have my reservations with some parts of your posts but I'll air them a little later. Let us learn together

Well said.

@ijawk

We are told from revelations that underneath this altar are "" the souls of them[/b] that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:""..............
Because of your pre-concieved notion that "" the soul"" is a disembodied part of a Human that escapes at one's death,you tend to conclude that definitly the dead are concious of there surrounding.....

you seem to be attacking something else outside the post, perhaps your preconceived notion of my personality. The Bible teaches that when a man dies, his flesh or body decays(goes to the dust), but that the spirit goes up.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
if you notice, there is a separation. that is what death is, a separation.

I'll like to take you to the scriptures for us to see what the word ""soul"" stands for......

John knew that the soul or ""life"" is symbolized by the"" blood"",and when the priests at the ancient Jewish tabernacle slaughtered a sacrificial animal.they sprinkled the blood ""round about upon the altar"" or poured it ""at the base of the altar of burnt offering""...

We can see this from leveticus 4:7 and 17:11-12 respectively
........
Leviticus 4:7
And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock atthe"" bottom of the altar of the burnt offering"", which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
.............
Leviticus 17:11-12
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the ""blood"": and Ihave given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat"" blood"", neither shall anystranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

................
So the life of those animals was in there ""blood"".....but here we are talking about souls or blood of these particular servants of God been seen underneath a symbolic altar in heaven....why??
..Because their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.....

Let's read phillipians 3:9-10....
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;............
..........
So john in a real sense was correct to had seen the souls( blood)of these matyrs underneath that symbolic altar.........these faithful ones in their day were matyred for their zealous ministry in upholding Gods word........

i didn't ask for this, i wonder why you are bringing it up. i agree with most of what is written here. though souls can also refe to other things. this is not a thread for soul education though.

In what sense were these souls crying out to GOD to avenge those who killed them??

Frosbel gave a perfect rebuttal by using ABEL as an example.......

ABels blood cried out after cain murdered Him....genesis 4:10-11 has that record......

It was not that abels blood literally was uttering words,rather abel had died as an innocent victim and justice called out for his murderer to be purnished.........

Similarly those christian matyrs are innocent,and in justice they must be avenged.......

These are the points you have to grasp..
1...There souls signifies there blood which was spilled
2....There souls(blood) being underneath that symbolic altar shows those faithful ones died a sacrificial death..
3....There souls crying out just as abels own did,shows they are waiting for justice to be done to there murderers...

in addition to my reply to frosb on this issue, your post, and the relevance to this thread. The remaining points to be grasped are that dead people are not inactive, but have parts that can hear, speak, receive robes, and be told to rest. Why would they be told to rest if it was automatic for all dead people. And what of the other posts that i gave you guys showing that dead people are not inactive, like the passages from Ecclesiastes, and the words of Jesus.

Now please can you define paradise??

Is it the altar that is the paradise or what??

Many things don't have an exact explanation in the Bible. If i asked you to define hell, or heaven, or God, or born again, we could have a thread for each with many views. So don't derail the thread. if you so need the definition, you may open another thread. I have already stated that paradise, abraham's bosom, under the altar, sleeping in Jesus are all phrases used to describe the state of dead believers. They are all the same thing expressed in different names to show us a more thorough view. just like god's Word is described in different ways, as a fire, a hammer, truth, light, sword etc to teach us different aspects of describing it. No sane christian gets up and says is the Word of God fire or sword or water, choose one. Or is God a buckler, or a sun, or love or holy, choose one or stop confusing us. That's why we emphasize reading things in totality, the Word of God, people's posts, etc.

In case you've forgotten these faithful christians were to experience exactly the same ressurection Jesus underwent......

Until Jesus was ressurected he was no where to be found in heaven.......neither was Jesus running around the whole place aimlessly from his Grave...he waited until his Father ressurected Him...

Don't expect anything different when it comes to the ressurection of those who also died in the same manner Jesus did.....

Dead christians are WITH CHRIST, get that into your skull.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

There is life after death after one is ressurected......

Don't you get it??

Ressurection is the word.....

David,abraham etc are all In there graves waiting until they are ressurected....

Abraham and co are not dead. God is not a God of the dead. They are conscious. Elijah is conscious, Moses is conscious. they are all a cloud of WITNESSES that can see us. they can't fully participate, hence the need for a later resurrection where they will be changed and given heavenly bodies.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The soul and spirit will be joined to a spiritual body. It is resurrection that takes them from under the altar. that is what they were essentially told to wait for.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The souls lived and reigned with Christ after they were resurrected. Of course, you are expected to say the souls are blood and they are symbolic with joining the blood of the lamb and metaphoric to abel and levi and zacharias, and all other cock and bull you want to present next. Please, try to learn something from the thread.

@frosb

There is no contradiction between the words of Solomon and Jesus or the apostles.

I am really worried for those who associate with your form of theology as it is pagan , false and quite misleading.

You show no respect for the consistency of GOD's word.

i noticed that you skipped my previous post completely. Try to read it and try to read posts fully first to kind of digest the other viewpoint, instead of the rush to 'rebut' or 'debunk'. You saw the thread 'rules' right? You are not omniscient, are you? Now, to what i said. I said "this position may sound contrary to 'the position of Solomon', as many have put up on this thread". To state that something may sound contrary or contradictory is not the same as saying that it IS contrary. i said both Solomon and the apostles were saying the same thing, and that Solomon has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. I only opined that even if Solomon is contrary to the apostles, i'd go with the apostles instead. you hardly know the meaning of theology, so don't bother talking down on me about it.

A number of problems with you assessment.

1. First of all this is an allegory, it is not actual fact that the souls of men and women will be under the altar for countless ages waiting for the end of the world, you guys are really confused. One minute they are with JESUS and the next minute they are under an altar.

That it is symbolic is not a reason to toss it aside. What you need to patiently and humbly find out is what is symbolic and how it applies. the passage speaks plainly for itself.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them [b]that were slain [/b]for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
They were slain, killed, or that is also symbolic? They cried,spoke aloud, and what they said is direct and can be understood by any. It is not all shrouded in some mystery that only frosb and his church members can explain. Robes were given to them, and they were told to rest for a while. these are simple messages that any reader can decipher from the passage, and they show a point. The point again being that dead saints can talk, hear, rest, and wear a robe. they are not unconscious and paralysed. John saw them under the altar. Now, under the altar may be symbolic, but i'm sure it is not a symbol of their coffin or hell. Other scriptures that talk about dead saints help us infer that it is the same place that is called paradise, Abraham's bosom, sleeping in Jesus etc. that a place or person is tagged different names is a common occurence in the Bible. The Bible/Word of God is symbolised as a sword, a fire, light etc. God Himself has many names, He is even symbolised as a sun and a shield, a tower, a buckler etc. Jesus is symbolised as the Word, the Way, the Door, the Truth, Branch, Wonderful etc. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. Symbolism is not only for the privileged esoteric few of frosb class to understand, so no come bamboozle us here. Use the different scriptures on the abode/dwelling place of dead saints to know what is been referred. Chei, i thought you said you were in deeper life, don't they teach you this simple things. Anyway, i've met others so you're not a proper yardstick.

2. We then have to assume that ABEL's blood is still crying today from the ground literally


The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground - Genesis 4;10

Why do you have to make such an assumption? i quote Rev, you run go Gen. Get the point. i didn't say anyone is still crying, neither does the passage i gave or the one you gave say so. Stop trying to distract issues. unlike the Genesis passage, the souls in revelation were seen/visible to man(john), the souls heard and spoke definite specific words, the souls rested, and they were given something. Don't just go and pull out something to try to misconstrue. Seek and learn to rightly divide the Word of God.

3. You have to take everything in revelation literally , for example :

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months - Revelation 9:7-10

In this passage you MUST agree that :

- Locusts looked like horses prepared for battle
- They had crowns of gold
- the Locusts had human faces
- The Locust have women's hair
- The Locusts had Lion's teeth

etc etc


Now you are beginning to see how silly it is to take everything in the book of revelation literally.

You are not the sole determinant of what to take literally in the Bible. Perhaps you should just close up Revelations since everything is symbolic to you, what an excuse. maybe even Jesus or God mentioned there are also symbolic. You should know how to divide the Word of truth rightly, and at least get basic points out of passages even when you do not seem to understand them. If not, simply go ahead and tell us what verse or chapter we may consider literal and the ones we should not.

The verse you quoted simply implies that as ABEL's blood cried, the blood of the just who have died since the world began is crying unto God even though they are dead , for vengance and God will avenge in due course.

New International Version (©1984)
By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead - Hebrews 11:4

Again, please post which verses in Revelation we should take literally, thank you. And what does the passage imply when it states that souls could hear, receive robes, rest, and be seen. Thank you in advance.

Paul rightly said they sleep, someone cannot be sleeping and be awake somewhere else.

You keep showing a serious inability to rightly discern the word of GOD because the answer to your confusion is in the same chaper

You missed the point. here is what i said "When believers die, they are in a place of rest. They are in paradise. they are sleeping IN JESUS. i'm highlighting IN JESUS so that you can see that they are in 'heaven', as you know, Jesus is in heaven. like the souls under the altar in heaven, they are in heaven." they are at rest just like the souls, but like the souls can communicate, even so can those sleeping in Jesus. They are the spirits of just men made perfect, the cloud of WITNESSES.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
God is not a God of the dead or paralysed, He is a God of the living. the dead saints are living. You are talking like the pharisees.

Which one is it , make up your mind, are they in paradise or under the altar, does being under an altar sound like paradise to you ?

Its the same thing. I already said it is the same thing if you bothered to read my post in full instead of just trying hard to debunk. Like your folks like to remark, 'we are here to learn'. paradise is a place in heaven, no? The altar is a place in heaven, no? Jesus is in heaven, no? The dead saints are asleep in Jesus, no?
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Paul had a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. You say if Paul dies, all he will do is go to hell(the grave). Well, i know who to believe.

Now, why do i say that there is activity and consciousness after a man dies and before the lake of fire, because the Bible suggests so. it is not much activity, hence the reason for a later resurrection. this position may sound contrary to 'the position of Solomon', as many have put up on this thread, but i will stand with it based firstly on the authority of One wiser and greater than Solomon, and on the words of the apostles who have the mind of Christ BTW. Infact their words are actually the word of Christ if we should go further. Secondly, i stand with this because the position of Solomon has been misinterpreted and misunderstood.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
In this passage, please note that some people had died, but their SOULS are at place called under the altar. These souls can actually speak, no, even cry aloud or shout. They are not totally unconscious. this period is BEFORE the Lord Judges, before judgement. these souls are even given white robes. they are in a place of rest. This agrees with common thoughts of Resting in peace after death, and the position of Sleeping or been asleep. this is what is said in the scriptures of believers that die. they are safe in the arms of Jesus, in Abraham's bosom as it were, asleep, in paradise. they are entered into Rest, unlike the sinner who has no rest. there is no peace for the sinner, infact, he runs even when nobody is pursuing.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
When believers die, they are in a place of rest. They are in paradise. they are sleeping IN JESUS. i'm highlighting IN JESUS so that you can see that they are in 'heaven', as you know, Jesus is in heaven. like the souls under the altar in heaven, they are in heaven. Hear apostle Paul
Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Paul knew that death for him was not inactivity, it was a gain. A place to be. A better place than this earth. paradise, Abraham's bosom is a better place than this earth, even though it is not the final destination. We'll still be raptured and changed.
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul knew that if he died, he would immediately BE WITH CHRIST. He said it is far better. it is not an empty state of waiting, it is a place of RESTing for a while. This is where believers go when they die. When sinners die, they go to a place of torment, darkness and weeping, hell. i expect some folks to deceive themselves as if they've not read the previous posts i made, and make remarks on a few sentences or phrases i just made. that's the same way they treat God's Word, in part, cherry picking, not in the whole.
To be fair on my pesin Solomon, lets briefly look at Eccl.
Ecclesiastes as a whole should be taken in its proper context. It is the words of the preacher, and the core message he is giving is that this world/life is vanity. And that each individual should be wise BECAUSE OF THE COMING JUDGEMENT. He is not trivialising judgement and saying sinners will die and nothing will happen, then God will wake them up and they will die again. No, He is warning man to see himself as fallen, just like or close to the animal. he should not be overcome by pride or learning. There is nothing new. here is a cross section

Ecc 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
If you read the book, it will be good you note the contexts, and several hints to show that man is limited, and the unOBVIOUS context of "upon the earth" or "under the sun". It is not everything that applies under the sun/on the earth that applies in the afterlife or in Heaven or in Hell.


Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
i've highlighted some not so obviousES. One, he is going to theme on Judgement and Vanity, God will judge. Then he tells man, he is but a man. he is in a fallen state. he will die like an animal dies, like the fish doesn't know when it will die. he is not so intelligent or preeminent as to know even this basics. Please note the last verse where he makes a distinction. Man is not completely equal to animals. Animals won't fac judgement or go to heaven and hell. he says 'the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward'
for time and space purpose,
Ecc 8:6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.
there is your judgement and vanity theme again,

Ecc 11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
Up here again, and

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
and there again. So to some other passages to help with our thread,


Ecc 6:3 If a man beget a hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
Ecc 6:4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness.
Ecc 6:5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
this passage tells us that there is life after death. he compares the state of rest of the dead, this hath more rest than the other
What the passage is saying, incase you are not too accustomed to the style of writing is this. If a man achieves much on earth, lives many years, gives birth to many children, and yet loses his soul(in the words of Jesus) i.e his soul not filled with good. he says a dead baby is better than him. for the old man came in with vanity and departed earth in darkness. but the baby has not seen the sun or known anything. He has MORE REST than the other.do not all go to one place?, as in, is everybody not going to die. But one has MORE REST than the other. they are not all just unconscious and inactive.

then He asks a question,
Ecc 6:12 For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?
who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun? Even Solomon did not know. But Jesus knew Still, we see Solomon used by divine inspiration to still reveal truths though with limited understanding.
Let me speak briefly on the star passage though,

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.
In summary, he is saying that after death, it is judgement. there is no repentance in the grave. there is no i'm sorry. It is like when you submit your answer in an exam. There is still hope for one who is alive, the living can still erase something, re-spell or shade something, but not the dead. the dead don submit answer as it were. there is nothing they can do again to get a reward. neither have they any more a reward. he is not literally saying they will not be rewarded again. Folks pick up know not any thing but won't pick up 'neither have they any more a reward'. They will ALL be rewarded ACCORDING TO their works. But once dead, there is no more love, or hatred or envy to demonstrate. nothing new to learn, you don buy am literally. they don't have a say, or any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun. this is why he exhorts later on in the chapter that,

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Ecc 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. So please, stop misunderstanding my pal King Solomon. There is life after death, and hell awaits all sinners, whatever hell now means.

Can the parable folks please create a thread for parables? i just tried reading through and saw a lot of waste of space, insanity and very uninteresting reading. And all the folks yapping about their views as 'truth'and others' as 'tradition' are just sickening. The Bible is truth, Jesus is truth, God is truth. Like my previous two posts, i expect this also to be largely ignored, or at most quoted and replied with a hopeless one-liner like "DEBUNKED or FAIL". Folks are learning hard from logicb.
On to my continued post. God is Holy and Loving. It is His holiness and Love that produce Hell. Hell is a very general statement in scriptures that mean many things; like hell fire or lake of fire, grave or coffin, a outer darkness sort of place ETC.
Jesus Christ the meek and lowly, loving and gentle, tender and kind Saviour spoke the most of Hell. he created it BTW. Unmistakable is the fact that He often described it as a place of torment, weeping, and darkness.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Jesus is quite unequivocal on this, There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. If Jesus says something will be, i wonder the sort of christian that says it will not be.

Hell is basically a God forsaken place or state. Heaven is where God is. If God is not in Heaven, count me out. I want to follow Him and Him alone. Hell is a place of death, separation. Hell fire is a place of eternal separation from God. the very absence of God is what makes the hellishness of hell fire than any other thing. We were made to connect to god. a disconnect will ultimately lead to torment, dissatisfaction and unfulfillment. Hell in scriptures is determined based on context, this has been explained in mine previous posts with bible references. hell may refer to the lake of fire or hell fire, hell may refer to the grave or coffin or place of burial, hell may also refer to what i want to talk on and which this thread may actually need some discussion about. the hell i'm referencing is the place where the ungodly are before they go to the lake of fire. Is there any hell apart from the lake of fire or the grave, yes. Consider the below.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
CONSIDER, BEHOLD, that the 'angels' here are in 'hell', waiting for judgement. they are not yet in the lake of fire, as they are reserved unto it. And of course they are not in the coffin. This hell is what is like a detention before final sentence/judgement. a detention is not a place of freedom or enjoyment. It is this hell that one may conclude that sinners are in before they are finally Judged/sentenced to hell fire.
When a man dies, BTW man is said to be made up of spirit, soul and body.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Man is not just a soul, or just a body/flesh, or just a spirit. He is uniquely tripartite. When a man dies, his body goes to the dust, his spirit goes up, and his soul goes to either the hell currently spoken of, or to where the Bible calls emmmmmm Abraham's bosom, or paradise, or under the altar. Like hell is generalised, many can simply generalise this as heaven. Cos in a sense, it is heaven, not looking at the technicalities, doctrines, and papers of all the brilliant men around. A simple everyday believer common man can say, my friend has died and gone to heaven. Low battery, i'll continue later with the bible passages you're probably about to scream for.

TroGunn: A Christian may serve in the police in a role that doesn't involve killing. It is not a Christian's duty to repair the current world's kingdoms/nations -he/she can't anyway. A Christian obeys the laws of the land ( that does not conflict with God's, of course), pays taxes, and lives a Christian life, leaving God to repair things in His due time through His Kingdom.

Your advice is good, but still the Bible does not condemn a soldier or tell christians not to be soldiers. Soldiers came to John, the greatest man that ever lived. Soldiers came to Jesus, Peter went to a soldier. None was told that it is wrong to be a soldier. Christians can be involved in peace making, and many times, peace making involves punishing offenders and criminals. It's not about repairing kingdoms. Not all soldiers get to kill BTW. And we have many nigerian policemen who have killed more than many soldiers, and tortured more innocent people than even many criminals. In the end, each individual should be led by the Spirit of God in their various profession and decision. One can still sin even as a priest.

where are they?

hmmm, Ub well done.

It is unfortunate when frosb fails to read

Now that is out of the way, Let's set some ground rules here:

First of all let us remove the notion that this is a debate from our minds but rather let us look at it as a discussion. The aim is not to prove superiority by "winning"/"debunking each other" a.k.a. arguing just for the sake of holding on to a belief rather than actually following the bible.
I am hoping that we can make this thread a quality thread without resorting to childish insults and other such nonsense.

Well then, on to what manner of punishment awaits a sinner after physical death. IT IS HELL oh. Or more aptly put, HELL FIRE. Hell fire is also referred to as the lake of fire. It is a different from 'hell' which is more general. There are different hells like there are different heavens. The context should guide the reader. God commends that we study the Word of God, so that we can rightly divide the Word. it is possible and popular to wrongly divide the Word. Read it precept upon precept, line upon line, read it with Spirit of course. Don't just read like a dogmatist or a hypocrite.
Pro 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
Bread in the Bible may not be the bread you know. Meat may not be the meat you know. Words have context, words can change in meaning. And a word can have different meaning. Most bible translators have given and sacrificed time, years of research, deep study and learning, honesty and integrity to give us the various translations we have today. Only ingrates and unthankful folks come whining about my translation is holier than yours.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, d[b]espisers of those that are goo[/b]d,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Jesus and the apostles also read 'imperfect' translations. They write to pick holes or snide on the lifes of translators. they didn't complain of dubiousities of spellings and change of phrases or remixed names. They were Spirit-led.

The words 'sheol', 'hades' and 'gehenna' are translated as hell most times. This majorly refers to the abode of the dead, or the grave. But there is another hell which is not the grave, it is hell fire or the lake of fire.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Not too surprising that only Jesus largely spoke of hell fire, He made it, remember? this hell fire is not the grave or coffin where every physically dead person is put. Else, He would not be giving strong warnings about it. This hell fire is the hell that God can cast one into. Not undertaker, undertaker can put a person in hell(grave), but it is God that can cast one into hell(hell fire/lake of fire)
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Note that 'hell' is also used here, but the context tells that its not the grave. it is the lake of fire, prepared for the devil and his crew members.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The above passage teaches that this hell fire/lake of fire/everlasting fire is not yet open. We never commission am. It says Then. Then, at the judgement, that is. You may read up the passage as to that. Other scriptures corroborate that no one is there yet.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath r[b]eserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. [/b]
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


Hell fire is a terrible place. it is more terrible and powerful than satan the devil. It will hold and restrain satan forever. It is a place of wrath.
The time is coming, it is not yet. So nobody is currently in hell fire or lake of fire.

Meanwhile, like the grave and the lake of fire, there are other places that are generalised as 'hell'. There is a place of darkness where some spirits are kept.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
There is a bottomless pit that can conveniently hold the devil for a thousand years.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

All these places are not as serious and hellish as hell fire. hell fire swallows hell and death.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

These above alone ought to show that hell is quite over simplified in the scriptures, one may be threading on a thin line if we are too narrow minded in its definitions. Hell fire is the final destination of all sinners. Now, like we have the spiritually networked universal church, and the networked kindgom of Heaven, i believe there is also the networked place of torment, a temporary 'hell', for lack of names to call it.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
This 'hell' is different from the lake of fire, and from the grave if you have been following this writing, you may understand. This is where all hell brakes loose. Its not a very organised prison methinks. this is where the sinner first stops at when he dies. This is a place of outer darkness and sorrow. i'll continue latar.

TroGunn: According to the scriptures, neither did they endorse Christians to kill others under any guise. History shows "how" they actually behaved. Christians are to imitate the example of Christ and the apostles.

can a christian be a policeman then?

Enigma: Honestly Image123, you don catch me baaad! I didn't want to make a single post on this thread at all since the "unitarians", JWs, "Jesus is a godists" (and Moslems etc) say that they want to discuss among themselves "lovingly", "brotherly" etc.

But the question you asked has been screaming to be asked!

Interestingly, I notice that the JWs have not so far made clear to their "friends" and "brothers" that they believe Jesus is the same as the angel Michael.

they are creeping in slooowly.

mazaje: Provide evidence to show satan exist and you are pointing to me?. . Are you high on cow dung?. . .

Cow dung contains nutrients that are good for you, don't be such a sissy. You are one big proof to the existence of satan. What do you want, pictures? a youtube video? what? Satan is a spirit and he is your father, justsaying
Okay, let me be a nicer fellow. Satan is a spirit, you can't see him. You can only see the result of him, like you(sorry). Like wind, you can't see, or God, you can't see, or heat. But you can feel the wind, or the heat. You can see the effect of heat on your bombom in hell (sorry, so sorry). You can see the wind effects when it blows things. You can even classify wind into different types and sizes. The results of what the devil does is what will also make evidence for his existence. What the Bible say about the devil? not an awful lot. Actually the devil is the devil, also called Satan, Serpent, Dragon in scriptures. He is a spirit being, and generally, spirits are not too freaked/eager about been seen or perceived by us men. Just like you don't have goals of making a mark to the ant race, or impressing your legacy on the cat kingdom. If you would observe, there was little or no talks about satan the devil in the old testament. They hardly knew the guy. They were not busy accusing the adversary like many folks today, you'd not be as surprised as the devil when you hear lies people tell about him today. It's the devil, devil this, devil that. Satan was largely inconspicuous in the old testament. It's Jesus who knows the devil that came and revealed him truly to us, though people went gaga on him ever since. that's why in the OT, people often thought it was some other thing responsible for blame. They blamed God, serpent/snake, people etc. Job thought God was the one that did all those things to him, even though his book mentioned satan most in all of the OT. One can't even find the word 'devil' in all of the OT. The point i'm making is that satan would not come and say "Tadaaaa, here i am". He specialises in deception. He is crafty, v.crafty and would often use his likes. Like in Genesis 3, he came through the snake, subtle. he doesn't come directly. he comes to mislead. His prsence is evident in the multitude of deception in the world today. that's why there are so many religions and so many churches, it's the art of deception. the more, the merrier, the more confused. If you put a 1000naira note among a bunch of envelopes, that would hardly confuse anyone. But put it among a wad of counterfeit 1000naira notes, and you will see real confusion, debate, research and argument. that's what the devil does, he confuses. he presents himself as an angel of light. that's why all religion looks counterfeit. That's why christianity becomes frustrating. i remember Chesterton saying "the problem of christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it has been found difficult and left untried".

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

My advice is don't give up on Christ, be honest, and God will find you. It may look late but He will.
When God builds a path to goodness, devil comes and builds seven more similar looking paths to cause confusion. He doesn't come straight with a tail and horns, so don't expect to follow him on twitter directly. he can enter serpents like in Genesis, even enter a good disciple like he did with Peter and Judas if one permits him.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Joh 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
He enters many men today, and even lives in some, not just enter.

Another thing about Satan is wisdom. he is intelligent to the I. He is more intelligent than man, any man. you can't outwit him. Many folks think intelligence, smartness, education will deliver them from satan. You will meet him there, literally. he outsmarted Adam and Eve, very smart people. he is wiser than Daniel, a very wise Spirit filled man, and he's got a lot of experience on his side. he is a tirelessly gifted evil spirit. You stand no chance as it were except you are on the lord's side. he will play you and deceive you until you begin to deceive yourself.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Satan is the prince/ruler of this world, and everything being churned out is under him control-wise. he controls the number(no pun intended), the technology, the powers. this is evident in the expansion of evil and satanic inspired inventions. He'll gladly give you a smarter world because he is so smart, but God promises a better world. We have so many smartphones and smart people around, but the world is not a better place. We are making advances in telecommunications but i don't think we've ever been so confused as a race. We do not understand one another even when we speak the same language and have all the translations. There is still so much dying, accidents, wars and threat of wars despite the attempts of the smart ones to make peace. These is the devil's playground. Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
:

The devil is evidenced in music and fashion, i don't think you'll see this anyway.
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Music is in his blood literally. he can give you good good music. Any sober person would see the devil in music. He's in charge. he dictates the tune, the lyrics, the swagger, the trend. He will take you to heaven, hell, pluto and back.

The devil is the thief. The usual theif operates in the dark, or with masks.
Joh 10:10a The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.

The stealing, the killing, the destruction. its all over the world and the news. These are the effects and the evidences of the devil. But Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
It is total surrender to Jesus can save you and give you victory over satan.

aaaaaaaaargggg, some posts here want to make me vomit, aaaaaaaargh. We never saw it in this fashion, aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggg. God is a merciful God oh. well, hope i don't get to write some long treatise.
To start with, i don't need a re-introduction. Who is God, God is my Father, my personal Papa, my sky Daddy if you please. Yesssss ooh, God is my Heavenly Father. Hmmm, i get that feeling in my tongue that you guys don't want to hear all that. Okay, let me write what you want to hear.

God is a good God, and God is a Holy God. These are some of His wonderful attributes. With respect to this discussion, these seem like the two attributes to focus on. i think that the whole discussion is encapsulated in this verse below,

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

To BEHOLD is to consider, understand, notice. Many fail to behold, and end up in unsavory extremities. We need to observe, we need to actually see that God is BOTH a good God and a holy God. Goodness and Severity. Atheists and other unbelievers love to droll on the severity, while bigoted christains love to cherry pick His goodness. But God is a good God, and a holy God. Everyone involved in this discuss needs to behold this. God is good to sinners and saints, giving us rain and sun and this and that, fine. He even gave us His only begotten Son, and all things richly to enjoy. But God is a holy God. He is of pure eyes, pure everything. He cannot and does not condone sin in anybody. His holiness is the premise for His severity, and yes, God is severe, strict, stern, harsh. Some quick facts on the severity of God apart from that inferred in Romans 11v22 are,
1. He dislodged Adam and Eve from Eden for eating.
2. He did not allow Moses to lead Israel into Canaan for hitting.
3. He punished Uzzah for touching the Ark.
4. He ordered that a man be killed for gathering sticks.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
5. He killed Ananias and Sapphira for lying.
6. He is to be feared, says Jesus.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
7. He is a consuming fire.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Psalm 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

It is this Holy nature that makes Him judge sin wherever it is found and in whoever. Even Jesus the Christ, the beloved Son in whom God is well pleased was not spared. When He bore the sins on the cross, He experienced something He had never ever experienced before, the judgement of God.

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
But Thou art holy. He is good but holy. To Him, sin is worse than a virus. Sin cannot come to Him, that's why a good sinner cannot make the kingdom of God. It's like if a file has a virus. What suddenly matters is the corruption of the file, not the size or the type of file. A file might be 300GB or just 6KB. It may be a video file or a doc. file. Whatever, from abroad, from original flash, or silicon valley hard disk. if is corrupt, it is corrupt. you don't want it connected to your system. It's similar with God and sin. If there is sin in your nature or in your action, it matters not if you are the world's greatest or richest, or poorest. The sinner cannot enter the kingdom of God. Except a man be born again, he cannot enter. Jesus said, "Marvel not", don't be surprised. The Bible says OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE AS FILTHY RAGS BEFORE GOD.. how much more our sins! It is only God that can make us truly holy. We are not hopeless if we come to Him.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

All that God does come still come from a perfect heart of goodness. Unfortunately, our minds and reasonings are small compared to this eternal truth. It's like an animal trying to fully understand a man and his actions. They are not exactly in the same class. Yet God is far greater than man. I need to say that 'HELL' is an expression of not just God's holiness, but also of God's love. That's some tough statement to wrap one's head around. God made hell to punish offenders. i don't know of a good city or county without a prison. Offenders need to be punished, else a good city will be turned into utter chaos in no time. A good government must have an efficient law ENFORCING agency. There ought to be respect for the rule of law. It is these 'values' that produce HELL. Absolute Holiness demands that God should keep His Word and judge sin, hence the wrath of God. The Bible plainly teaches that God is angry with the wicked.
Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

God's wrath is severe. It took just one sin from Adam to separate Him from God. Even Jesus who said my Father is with me. When sin was on Jesus, He cried. He, for the first time referred to the Father as my God. That's how grave judgement is.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Hell is basically to be forsaken by God. That, ithink, is the one truly God forsaken place or state. Jesus prayed for to be spared this even.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
The death He feared was separation from God, not the three days expedition where He was busy leading captivity captive, and making a open show of the devil's defeat. of the three days, He had said
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
He said I lay it down of myself. This was not the cup He wanted to pass over Him. This was what He lived for, He lived to die.
Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Separation from God was His issue, that was what He feared. God is Life. Anything outside God is death, dead.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
This is why He uttered puzzling statements such as these
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
In God's view point, in God's dictionary/lexicon, anyone that has God has life. The doctor's report does not matter. Anyone that does not have God does not have life. It does not matter if the whole world thinks you are alive.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
The one that has life never dies, even when men are mourning gone too soon. The Bible says he is not dead. It is the sinner that is dead, even before his death. The believer 'sleeps' as it were. Anyone that does not belong to God is already dead or separated from God. The soul that sins will die, and all have sinned. that's why we are all on the path of eternal damnation by default. it is only Jesus that can save us from this wrath to come. the wrath is an exercise of judgement on all sinners. This is getting longer than i planned, i may have to talk on 'hell' later, sorry.

honeric01: But this is not a film now, this is suppose to be real and action films are make-believe, so no comparison here.

Jdg 13:24 And the woman bore a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him.
Jdg 13:25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.

From the above passage, it shows that Samson was not an ordinary man, but one endued with power and special abilities for the miraculous. BTW, some of those things you watch on film happen, not to mention when one is specially empowered by God for the deliverance of a nation. It's called UNCOMMON ability, in the realm of the miraculous. All the HOW CAN, HOW CAN is answered by the simple phrase, "It is a miracle". Like raising the dead, or dividing the river Jordan, or healing the sick, or calming the storm. These are not feats performed by ordinary men, but by extraordinary empowerment from the Spirit of God.

Jdg 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.


Jdg 15:14 And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.
Jdg 15:15 And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.

So it was actually a thousand men, not ten thousand for the records with a jawbone, not a horn. There is the account.

Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

If God made the worlds by the Son, was it after Jesus was born by Mary? Why on earth will a christian argue like this?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Your explanation would have made sense if not that Luke 16:19-31 clearly shows that both the rich man and Lazarus are very dead.[/quote]its making sense that. Job is not literal as they don't have the name of his wife. sorry, I'm still on the search for that Grace i spark of.
did me just read 'don't rationalize for God', from an anti Trinity fellow, what a joke!

double post

collins123: Stop saying Google!!!

Is Google your GOD

Give us proof here, I don't care whether u copy from google or elsewhere. So if this was 1980 you will still ask me to ask google right?

methinks you are a lazy man. Do your research mr. is nairaland your GOD or am I?

Techwriter: @OP, I agree most believers on NLand don't follow arguments logically. There are reasons for this
1. All Christians are not Teachers: there are 5 fold ministries in the Bible: Pastor, Evangelist, Teacher, Apostle and Prophet(Eph 4:11). They all have there different areas of specialization. That's why organizations have spokesman. Unfotunately, nairaland is not an organization but a free for all forum. Take the medical profession for instance, there are questions/medical issues a paediatric cannot handle even though he is a medical doctor. That's why a General Hospital is often recommended where you meet all specialties. The Church (not Nairaland)is a spiritual general Hospital where you get treatment for all your spiritual issues

2. Most believers don't study their Bibles: Paul adviced his protégé Timothy to 'Study in other to show himself approved, a workman that should not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth'2 Tim 2:15. Due to lack of study, most believers are ashamed of some questions they have no answers to and resort to insults. You can never hear me insult anyone, no not even on Nairaland. Believers should not do that, Jesus even says that if you call your brother a fool you are in the danger of hell fire(Matt 5:23). To insult is Islam not Christian

3.The Bible is for learning not argument: James advices that you receive the Word of God with meekness(James 1:21). If you are not humble enough to learn, you will always take the position of argument and never understand.You wonder why Jesus called Peter and other Apostles "babes"(Matt 11:25)? because unlike the scribes and pharisees, they were willing to learn The Bible also says that the word of God is Spirit abd you need to be spiritually solvent to understand all of it. 1 Cor 2:9-11).

4. The Bible is hid from unbelievers: the bible says in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "If the Gospel is hid(not understood) it is hidden from them that are perishing in whom the god of this world(satan)has blinded their eyes so they cannot see the light of the glory of the gospel..."

I have more reasons to give but my advice to you is this
1. Don't come to Nairaland looking for answers about christianity
2. Give your life to Christ and receive His Word with meeknes of heart
3. before you study the word pray that God should open your eyes of understanding (Ps 119:18-19;Eph 1:17)

I'm a teacher of God's word and would soon open a thread to answer most questions that Nairalands ask

touche ithink.

TroGunn: That verse, Luke 3:14 talks of John the Baptist preaching to different folks including soldiers. It's no proof that Christians can be soldiers. History clearly shows the early Christians didn't join the military or converts who were soldiers remained such and were involved in warfare.

you're talking 'history', I'm talking Scripture. Neither John, Jesus or the apostles condemned soldiers. instead what we see are passages that pass off christians as soldiers who should always put on the whole armor and wrestle.

honeric01: How possible was it, that's what i want to know.. he died like an ordinary man at the end of the day.

Secondly, was it that no one could shoot him arrows from distance? kindly help me with the spiritual explanation on how it was possible for him to kill 10,000 ARMED people with a horn

sincerely, I've not seen many ordinary men that die killing more of their enemies than they did in life. Samson was a warrior like no other, he could kill with bare hands if situation demanded. you need a dose of 'action films' to perhaps come closer to the reality of actor no dey die.

simply ask Google. all your queries have already been answered on many other webpages. go and do such readings first if you're genuinely seeking answers. born against

Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
there is nothing wrong with being a soldier. Every Christian ought to be a soldier as it were. but like in all professions, the Christian's actions, inactions and decisions should be guided/led by God. A Christian soldier should not be oppressive or fight a wrong cause. every Christian has a mandate to disobey ungodly orders, whether you're a soldier or a pope.

^
yep, he wasn't an ordinary man.

mazaje: ^^

How

you're satanic in summary.

obadiah777: WHAT TIME DOES THIS DEBATE START ?

is there not a difference in a debate and a discussion?
BTW, all these rules, i. need to look for grace to keep am first. imagine even that artiste cyrex say nothing do kjv, na oversabi frosb go dey whine like devil. make mi go look for some gracias, sorry, Grace.

you're a good evidence mazaje.

every born again Christians are actually soldiers, youknowwhati'msaying?

ijawkid: Very good question........

what's the definition of a good question, anything you don't have an answer for?

Samson's cameraman na, you answered the question already. He killed them all because he operated under the miraculous. the corpses would have been counted. Sam was a one man army by the way.

frosbel: One other thing, we all agree not to 'murder' the English language.

English words will be defined exactly as stated in the English dictionary and not by some magical art of mental gymnastics.

hahahaha this frosb dey fear 'perish' and 'destroy'. fear not, haff some faith.

good to see some sane and sober minds here, happy Sunday(whatever that greeting means).