₦airaland Forum

It is also likely that due to their islamic heritage- something that jenifa failed to highlight- the North would not have been the prime place for the British to develop. This Islamic education would have made the North less willing to accept western education which they probably linked to British Christianity. There is no difference in the potential of the North but in their culture, a culture which unfortunately might possibly be incompatible with entrepreneurship, independence, and a quest for education and self-reflection. The first step would be to change that culture.

The first sentence of my first post on this thread was that the north isn't connected to the western world.
and of course what I mean by that is that it is more connected to the east due to the islamic heritage.
and I said a way to change that will be to connect nigeria more. literally. ie opening trade routes and building effective transportation systems. this is especially good for nation building.

and later in my second post, I gave additional reasons. ex. british interest - they built infrastructure in the areas they were interested in extracting economic wealth from ie the south.

something to note also is that we have to think of the word "develop" in relative terms. back then in late 1800s, the muslims up north were relatively developed. they had writing (arabic) etc and quest for education is definitely very high!! schooling in religious studies is a rite of passage for many. the legacy still exist (alhjamaras??) today although it is now pitiable.

and to talk of entrepreneurship, northerners were trade brokers between the outside world (middle east) and the rest of the other regions before the british came into the scene.

in fact, i think it was the northerners connection to the east that gave them a "civilized" edge over igbos and yorubas. the british when they came recognized this.

we in the south got some physical and social infrastructure (that laid the foundation to be built upon )from  the west and the west is currently the most powerful in the world. If it were the middle east, things will be opposite.

so I wouldn't belittle northern cultures. anyways, our points overlap in many areas which is good. lol

SEFAGO:
I think the issue here is semantics. the Hausa states were not "organized" the way you are putting. I think you mean more "centralized" than the the igbo and yoruba and other ethnic groups. The igbos were quite organized but did not practice the type of government which would have been susceptible to indirect rule.

I dont think is true. There is something wrong with this statement that I havent figured it out yet. Anyways Read this article a bit:

I think it is more a issue of tribalistic sentiments than semantics but that's my own opinion.
whether organized or centralized, physicsMD definitely knows what i mean and it is very clear from the context of my post. i'm sure even you got the idea of what i'm saying.
anyways, as i have repeated many times, I'm speaking from the british point of view and why they chose northern nigeria.

I find this part of the document you posted very interesting because it explains why the north wasn't developed from a northerner's perspective:

The British came for 60 years and Sir Ajayi talked about few numbers of graduates in the North (two at independence). What he did not say was that there was a documented policy of the British when they came that the Northerner should not be educated. It was documented. It was British colonial policy. I have the document. I have published articles on it. That if you educate the Northerner you will produce progressive Muslim intellectuals of the type we have in Egypt and India. So, do not educate them. It was documented. And you say they love us (North).”

I think part of it has to do with lack of christian mission work in the north. As we all know, most of the western education southerner received during colonial rule came through christian missionaries.
And if it is true that the british outlawed education in the north, it goes to show that they probably felt threatened by the centralization organization/civilization of the northern states. Even the christian missionaries probably felt scared to go preach the word of Jesus among the fiercely muslim northerners.
The book I cited in response to PhysicsMD's post also tells of how northern nigeria had been intentionally kept impoverished by the british compared to a "rich southern nigeria." By rich, I infer the author meant mineral/trade rich. Southern Nigeria had most of the wealth the british were economically interested in extracting. To cite the book, "not a penny was spent that could be avoided"

@Poster, I know you were expecting to see a paradise the Hausas have built with the oil money. All thanks to The NYSC at least you're now enlightened. Those few corrupt leaders in the south like the ones in North can't  deceive you. Let's begin to hold individuals accountable. Let's stop this North/South, Christian/Muslem thing it won't help us. They are using all these to confuse us while they carry on their looting.  God help Nigeria.

This is the best post on this thread so far. I wholeheartedly agree.
Even the niger deltans will be surprised to find out that they are actually better off than most northerners.

our leaders need to be held accountable.

PhysicsMHD:
1. There wasn't a single insult or personal attack in my post and I'm somewhat puzzled and disappointed by this response. Asking you if you're actually a Latvian is not an insult. My agreement with fstranger was to the effect that you were not a Nigerian. It is not only this thread which made me reach that conclusion, but I was silent until now.
2. I indeed described a system of organization in my post. I never said the North was not organized. However, I was not the one who alleged that the North had a "relatively organized structure" relative to the Yorubas. If you don't know anything about the organizational systems of the Yorubas, just admit it and don't resort to accusing me of resorting to insults. I did ask a simple question. I asked you how the North was relatively more organized than the Yorubas given the system that I outlined. If you can't answer it, read Saburi Biobaku's Sources of Yoruba History, which has a chapter discussing Yoruba organizational systems, and then get back to me and we can have a reasonable discussion about whether your original assertion was correct.
3. Historical documents will tell you that Northern Nigeria was not producing as much imperial money as Southern Nigeria and that was the reason for the 1914 amalgamation of the Northern and Southern protectorates, so that the Southern protectorate could carry the North financially and greater investment in the development of the North could occur. By 1966, a disproportionately high number of the military and political institutions of the country were located in the North (see Nwankwo's and Ifejika's book on Biafra for evidence, I don't have the book with me and can't be bothered to get it just for this discussion), many of which had been built before the 1960 independence of Nigeria.
4. Please provide some evidence that "even the colonialists in the north were living under worse conditions than the southern nigerian government." I find this claim extraordinary and would like to know its source.


Do you have any idea what a Native Authority was in colonial Nigeria? Do you think they were not in Yorubaland?

1. ok then no personal attacks. But anyways, I think it's because my comments weren't clouted by tribalistic sentiments as yours are.

2. Like I said earlier, hausa states were more organized from the british point of view. They choose the north as the seat of government because of their relatively organized structure compared to ours and the igbos'. I actually thought this was common knowledge. This was why we had indirect rule. The idea started with Luggard in Northern Nigeria like Aboki already mentioned.

3. All you did here was support my claim that the north has always been poor financially due to lack of natural resources even though politically, they were strong - especially during and after colonial rule.

4. Through Unknown Nigeria by John Raphael. The entire chapter 3.


lol of course. It all started in northern nigeria and was extended to the south and other parts of british west africa (even ghana had a native authority). see #2.

this thread is useless now.

I am happy however that there are citizens out there (although few) who viewed Fashola's "act of charity" through critical lens and thought more about the big picture rather than looking myopically at the story. anyways, that's what democracy is all about.

blacksta:
hen hen

Another bash them thread -

All the best.

why do you say that?
what is your opinion on the topic?

Eko Ile:
I thought you value life? You really sound very selfish and responsible.

And the tax crap you posted excluded the government saving lives with taxpayers funds where exactly?

if you want to save lives, pay doctors salaries and build hospitals in impoverished areas of lagos. Those are examples of working for common good of society. texaspete has spent all his time on this thread making the same argument.
you can save MANY lives with 7 million naira of citizens tax. that is a fact.

but obviously you cannot know that.   because you are so smart.

I'm nigerian and have lived in nigeria more years than I've lived abroad.
I've had an opportunity to compare the two systems and anybody will tell you that we Nigerians are very complacent. The government is corrupt because they get away with it easily. we allow them to be corrupt.

Like Fela will say, we are shuffering and shmilling.

if you don't have any constructive comments to add, stay out of the thread.
I already put up a no trolling sign and i'm hoping moderators will take note.

[quote author=~Bluetooth link=topic=603337.msg7733259#msg7733259 date=1297760616]It didn't degenerate into anything afterall the two recipients are ibo.How is ojukwu's life worthwhile than ifeanyi's ? So we should let ojukwu live and ifeanyi should die abi ? Seems you are not really smart afterall . [/quote]no comment.

thank God I no longer live in nigeria. my eyes are open
at least where i live, I know where my taxes are going to.
I know i am not being forced to pay taxes for government officials to send their kids abroad for schooling or sponsor nollywood stars medical expenses 


----

According to most political philosophies, taxes are justified as they fund activities that are necessary and beneficial to society. Additionally, progressive taxation can be used to reduce economic inequality in a society. According to this view, taxation in modern nation-states benefit the majority of the population and social development.[30] A common presentation of this view, paraphrasing various statements by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. is "Taxes are the price of civilization".[31]

It can also be argued that in a democracy, because the government is the party performing the act of imposing taxes, society as a whole decides how the tax system should be organized.

A lot of us complain about Nigerian government and our leaders but I get the sense that even the commoners are of the same breed and will lead by precedent if they were privileged to assume a position of power.
We are not interested in changing our situation at all and when opportunity presents itself, how likely is it that we will take it?

Basically, Nigeria is the way it is because we are satisfied with our conditions and are not willing to take initiatives to make changes. The few who try will be hindered by the complacent mass and lose motivation

To me, change at the national level has to start with changes in the local level. Don't get me wrong, i'm not calling for a repeat of Egypt or Tunisia in Nigeria. But for example, how many political NGOs are there in naija? How many government watch groups are there? How many community engagement organizations are there?

why are we such passive citizens?

discuss.


trolls not welcome.

^ haha now you make me laugh. anyways bye

Eko Ile:
Yes of course, it's getting very comical and you're making me laugh.

lol. i'm glad.
laughter is the best medicine. certainly better than anger and tantrums

at least you've heard my perspective and i've heard yours (which i certainly do no and will never understand).
good morning and goodday

^how is the christian dior perfume? want some more strawberry flavored ice-cream cake to go with it?

Nigeria is one of the most corrupt country in the world for a reason. my last post on this thread. i'm out

^ no comment 
obviously you are addicted to my posts


@bluetooth, if I developed kidney failure tomorrow and went to fashola for help and 50 other citizens did the same, what protocol will fashola use to decide which one of us to help? because i'm sure he can't afford to treat all of us. will he pull names out of a lottery bag?
see the point i'm making? see how this is a very easy way for a government to quickly become corrupt and help those who are likely to return a future favor?

@bluetooth, I definitely don't know what to say now because obviously this has degenerated into a tribalist argument.
maybe ojukwu was flown abroad under veteran benefits? he was a war hero wasn't he?

@eko-ile,
you can't ignore my post for the life of you. can you?
because I certainly am ignoring yours.

[quote author=~Bluetooth link=topic=603337.msg7733131#msg7733131 date=1297758785]From the expression above it shows you don't know about Nigeria.
^^We don't have philantropic organizations but philantropic individuals.
^^If fashola had paid for the money as a private citizen,it would not have made any difference and as per being sorry for me,maybe you should be sorry for yourself cuz I don't think I was raised the way you were not to value another man 's life.
How many philantropic organizations have come out so far to contribute to this guy's case ? I see nothing wrong in svaing another man's life with taxpayers' money.[/quote]I definitely value lives. In fact, I value lives so much that I wouldn't spend 7 million on one life when I could use the same amount to save 200 peoples lives. if i were a state governor looking out for the best of the whole state that is.

I never said nigeria had philantrophic organizations. I was using US example. but i'm glad you agree that Nigeria has philanthropic individuals
if you have been following this news, you will find out that Dike did have a charity event organized for him. The whole African Movie association (or whatever organization he belongs in) were doing a charity event for him.what is that if not philanthropy.
they claimed they didn't raise enough which is why they went to appeal to the state to raise the rest.

my issue with this is that the state government shouldn't be dishing out millions to individuals like that without any protocol in place. I expected this guy here to at least explain to us what protocol fashola used for diverting state funds to help dike but instead

ex. if I developed kidney failure tomorrow and went to fashola for help and 50 other citizens did the same, what protocol will fashola use to decide which one of us to help? because i'm sure he can't afford to treat all of us.
see the point i'm making? see how this is a very easy way for a government to quickly become corrupt?

texazzpete:
I'm more concerned with the masses in Lagos who cannot.

exactly.
7 million can save more than 1 person's life.hundreds are dying everyday in lagos that even common 100k could save a person's life. count how many lives 7 million could save.

[quote author=~Bluetooth link=topic=603337.msg7732971#msg7732971 date=1297755843]Thisis nothing but sheer sarcasm.you just want to be in opposition to what he did and stop trying to berate him for helping a dying man.
Even if fashola had spent the money from government coffers,are you telling me that there is no provision for emergency fund to cover that aspect or what ? There are proper way to ask for accountability that won't jeopardize the purpose of an act.He just saved another man's life and that is the most important to me.people like you would still be the ones to complain if the governor did not intervene or the man dies.na wa o[/quote]Well, i'm sorry if you do not see anything out of place in what he did.
I live in the US maybe that's why. Emergency funds are used for things like local disasters etc not for flying a hollywood star out of the country for medical treatment. Philantrophic organizations will usually take care of that. and if they lobbied people in government, they don't do it blatantly under state authority. the politicians will help out as private donors not under the name of the state.
the state is not a charity organization

different societies, different rule of law I guess. I've just been conditioned to expect our rulers to act on behalf of society rather than a a select few.


eko-ile,
no comment for you hence forth. and I implore you to return the favor.

texazzpete:
I am not impressed with your defence at all. Your masters should have hired someone more intelligent to argue their case, not an uncouth, ill-mannered rabble rouser such as yourself.

I totally agree.

even if he were the mouth-piece of the fashola government here on nairaland, shouldn't his masters have taught him in the art of diplomacy?
he's throwing insults left and right rather than making a case for himself.

no body is saying Fashola isn't doing a good job. The man is trying. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't object to a questionable action as this one. and Eko-Ile did not at all present us with any coherent argument to sway our opinion at all.

Many of these doctors collects more money that the state cabinet members.

except the state cabinet members make 10fold more from all the egunje and bribes they collect as favor.

and your comments are sweeter than chrisian dior perfume mixed with strawberry flavored ice-cream cake.

[quote author=Jenifa_ link=topic=603337.msg7732682#msg7732682 date=1297746384]is it the most efficient way to save lives?
if 7 million can save 100 peoples' lives but they can't afford to bribe you would instead choose to save just one man who can afford to bribe you?[/quote]why didn't you respond to this comment above?
corruption = absolute inefficiency i tell ya

anyways this is my last post on this thread. I refuse to be a part of this.

enjoy urselves

PhysicsHD:
Yeah, I agree with fstranger. You're definitely not a Nigerian. Are you actually from Latvia, like he said?


Prior to the colonization of Northern Nigeria, 50% of the population in the Sokoto Caliphate were slaves (I can't speak for the Middle Belt, though, haven't studied them as much). Above that were non-slaves, above them were the mallams/clerics etc., above that were emirs, then the Waziri, and then the Sultan.

What kind of sophisticated organizational structure do you see there that places them above the Yorubas? Please enlighten me.

i'm disappointed in you I must say.

anyways, I didn't make up my statement about northern nigeria being more organized. This was the british rationale as evident in historical documents. You can find them online. and you yourself just described a very clear system of organization in your post.
If you want to argue against my comments, do so constructively
please argue reasonably rather than resorting to personal attacks please and thank you.

historical documents will also tell you that northern nigeria wasn't receiving as much imperial funds as southern nigeria. even the colonialists in the north were living under worse conditions than the southern nigerian government. They cited the presence of minerals and natural resources in the south for the unequal resource distribution.
it had always been that way.

When I learn something new, I thank the poster for the info and acknowledge my ignorance. I don't understand why some people will rather resort to insults rather than ask a simple question. ex. ask me where i got my info from and argue against it with your own sources and argument. etc

kcjazz:
@Jenifa

Are you concerned about using tax payers money to save people? Or what? If so write and report to the Lagos government.

Not everyone will get 7 million, and as a matter of fact not everyone goes abroad for treatments, some need money to be treated in Nigeria.
This is not the first time Fashola or any other governor gets to do things like this. I don't know the intention of the OP of this thread whether to praise Fash, for me its all about saving a life.

Regarding any discretionary account, I doubt any government publishes accounts online. There is no "sick people" fund account to apply to. My assertion on an account is purely based on the fact that he can't use his money all the time to save lives plus this is common accounting practice. If you have someone sick, help them by joining a group that has a voice and meet people by forming relationships. You can't do that on the web either emails or phone. At the end, there is no guarantee that the guy will come out alive, but this is a start and a relief for his family.

@Ekoile
You have made your point, you don't even need to add more

that's why our government is so corrupt in Nigeria because we allow the state to do whatever it wants with our money without us questioning how it is being used.
this kind of passive citizenry is not the best. we should learn to be critical of our govt.

Eko Ile:
What if it's tax money?


So it's corrupt to save people's lives with tax payers money? Yes or No?

is it the most efficient way to save lives?
if 7 million can save 100 peoples' lives but they can't afford to bribe you would instead choose to save just one man?

Eko Ile:
What of it's tax money?

then it testifies to the corrupt nature of our govt.

i'm guessing you mean "if" instead of "of"?

sbeezy8:
ok can I have her number?

will she now send us nekkid pic ?

im just wondering nothing in life free ohhhh

vote first. nekkid pics come later.

do we have to register to vote?

fstranger3:
^^^

I'd rather you dont ever mention my name again for the rest of your life, ok?

easy. done deal.

and henceforth, please refrain from responding to my posts/mentioning my username and i'm very happy to return the same favor!!

Eko Ile:
Of what use is your silly post after spending so much time running your mouth about what you finally have to admit that it's a case of may be or might?


Didn't I asserted to you to stop running your mouth about what you don't know anything about?


And didn't you post here saying you have proof to back up you assertion? in this same article you posted and I later quoted to spell out your baseless and pointless rubbish?

keep talking. You clearly have no clue what your position in this argument is because you NEVER had one.
weren't you arguing that the money came from a discretionary fund? what fact did you use to support this?

at least I did my research and tried to come up with information to help us understand the motive for this "state sponsored charity" work

as far as i'm concerned, the money may be tax money. but we lack a transparent govt so we may never know for sure.

Kobojunkie:
[b]DETAILS [/b]are hard to obtain, I have come to learn.

true. especially for all things in a heavily corrupt country like nigeria

@ eko-ile
if he used his pocket money then I have less of a problem with his personal "donation"
but how are we sure of that?

from my first post on this forum i think i've made it clear that taxation is different from voluntary donation.

you are just here blabbering. taking about fashola in one minute. talking about minister of health in the next. you clearly do not know who is running government in lagos. you need to change your username asap. you're not giving lagos a good image at all. but i'm sure you're not doing it on purpose. i'll excuse you for that.

^ i am assuming that he used tax money. but hoping the money came from his pocket due to segun arinze's wording.

now ask me a question that actually makes sense. ok?

Eko Ile:
So the statement below = The money came from Fashola's pocket?
The link you posted said "for assisting to raise part" Are you capable of rational and adult reasoning at all?

schedule an appointment with your optometrist asap because
you clearly need extra prescription strength glasses. I don't see how my comment below equal what you just mentioned above:

In fact, Fashola may have sponsored this with his pocket money and appealing to other politicians etc. I'm not sure about this but I hope so. I hope it wasn't tax payers money that was used.

if you are smart, you will realize that I actually doubt that he used his pocket money although I was trying to give him a benefit of doubt.