₦airaland Forum

SysUser,
you're a sweetheart    The truth has never been and will never be popular, continue to speak it jare!

imhotep:
Sysuser is a dangerous fanatic. He understands very little of the bible he has been misquoting and using to spread hatred, envy, contention, confusion and division.

the same way I was "misquoting" it right imhotep? Sysuser is simply quoting the bible and nothing else. while I wish both your discourse was a little less harsh, I understand faith-based debates are very personal becos ones faith is a very personal thing, and for a lot of us we are very passionate about what we believe and why we believe it.

  my brotha I've got respect for you, you're obviously an intelligent man, but I could not disagree more strongly with you on ur views for reasons we've gone over before.

olabowale:
@JeSoul: Why are you proud of SysUser? He said nothing, except he hyperventillates alot! Aburo, Boston po ju bayi lo. If you are going to support anyone defending Christianity, SysUser should not be it. You need to advise him to calm down. Thats the best thing you can do for him.

Alhaji Olabowale, . You still on my case eh? I'm here in Boston, are you coming to visit soon?
and I am proud of sysuser becos he's taking a biblical stand. Perhaps he's frustrated with imhotep and I don't blame him, I've been frustrated myself in the past. But as long as he is using the bible to denounce every other falsehood, he's good in my book.

Sysuser,
wow that was some response! and I shall highlight some harsh but excellent points you make. . . hope you're ready for them to descend on you with insults. But hey the truth hurts doesn't it?

As such i as a Born Again Christian, I am less concerned whether you think there is disunity in the church or not, simply because God would bring about unity in the church according to His own word , in His own Time and not according to the desires and wishes of mere sinnful and devilish men.

a very true fact many do not realize. God's will will come to pass and His word cannot fail.

The catholic church came about as a result of idolatory,apostacy worldly influence of men (please check your church history.
wow! talk about a direct statement! and you could not have said it better!

God is no respecter of men, as such if only one person believes in Him , then only one person would be saved,

True! so therefore all this fuss over and worship of the pope is straight up heretical.

So please don't feed me the lie that the catholic church was the first church, (I would rather you say the catholic church was the first church of satan)

*nodding my head*

God is not interested in how large people that believe in Him are , 5.9 billion people can believe whatever lie they want to believe, it doesn't matter so long as just 1 person believes in the only True God. Noah was not part of the crowd of unbelievers that were in his generation, yet he and his family were the only one saved.

lol. catholics love the fact they're the largest "church" and continue to grow - this should put a damper on that.

I pray that God would speedily bring about the destruction of the devices of devil (i.s.la.m, catholism etc),

Amen.

Cassiel:
@ujujoan & Emperoh
I know that verse is the one catholics rely on as the basis for priests forgiving sins.I'm not going to go into the argument that verse deserves here because a lot of justice has been done already to arguing that verse,and a whole lot of other related verses(even unrelated ones too ). You'll find it all in the thread i started sometime ago ''Catholics and Confession''. The key debaters of that thread were Imhotep and JeSoul,and trust me,they did a real good job.That verse was looked at,contradicted,explained,seen from varying perspectives,etc etc. And in the end,there was no concrete biblical basis for priests forgiving sins.Feel free to check it out. I think its very enlightening.

I'm glad you were able to take something away from all those words!
Let them continue to blindly quote Jn20 and ignore all the other scriptures that contradict their conclusion - it's their own cup of tea. The bible says the time will come when people will not endure sound teaching, this is that time.
and we see brother imhotep is back at it in here again, still trying to justify catholic doctrine by using catholic documents. *shaking my head* that's like me claiming to be the queen and using documents & writings that I authored to prove it. and ignoring all the other previously existing writings that assert I'm not the queen.

grouppoint, I also forgot to add, don't forget John 10: "the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy". A lot of the misfortune and heartache out there is the result of the handiwork of the devil. God intends and plans only good for us, but a lot of the time because of our sin or bad choices or sometimes through no fault of ours and just because of the evil of the devil, bad things happen to people that God did not author.

  But for every christian, we have the assurance of Rm 8 that "God will use everything to eventually work out for our own good" even the bad and tragic things.

Nwankwo, you're welcome.

Ujujoan:
I'm actually om your side Jesoul, People don't live according to the scriptures, its one of the graces we pray for everyday.
maybe I should rephrase my question, Why do some christians still comit murder

same reason they lie, steal and cheat and curse etc. . . becos of their sinful nature.
Christians slip and fall and make bad mistakes every now and then (even Peter acted like a hypocrit once!), but a professing, born-again christian cannot willingly and comfortably and happily continue to sin - if he/she does, she was never born again in the first place.

Grouppoint:
So you are simply substituting 'lucky' for blessed, This means the other person born into a poor family in Somalia, or Dafur in Sudan is simply Unblessed.

Hence some people are blessed through no effort of theirs while other are equally unblessed through no fault of theirs, do you agree?

excellent question, that has an answer with different sides.
As a christian nothing in my life can be attributed to luck, "every good and perfect gift is from heaven". So when anything good happens to me - it came from God.

Now as for those who by worldly definitions were less "fortunate", I return you to my point about how something that seems like a disadvantage to us might in God's sight be used for the benefit of that person.
So while I grew up happy and comfy, and someone else grew up hungry - it doesn't necessarily mean they are "unblessed", becos we don't have the full picture of that person's life.

For instance the rich man in the bible, when Jesus told him to give up his wealth, he couldn't. His wealth was actually a disadvantage to him becos it held him back from going to God.
Likewise it is so much more easier for a poor person to accept and serve God - that is a hidden advantage we don't usually recognize. Likewise a person might be plagued with sickness that God will use to His glory (see the story of the blind man in the bible).
Judging who is blessed vs. "unblessed" is not as simple as it may seem. Becos God in His infinite wisdom assigns and gives to each as He sees fit, and since the bible tells us that God does not show favoritism, we can be sure He does not love me more than the leper under the bridge! even though it does not seem so.
Hope all this makes sense.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=119070.msg2045656#msg2045656 date=1205251502]@JeSoul,

Thanks for your answer. Since sin did not from God, why will man have sinful nature since man was created by God, not the devil?[/quote]You're welcome .

Sin entered the human race thru Adam. God made us right in the begining but it also got ruined not long after in the garden thru Adam. Ecclesiastes 7:29 This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."

When the devil tricked Adam, sin entered the world - sin came from the devil.
1John3: 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil[b], because the devil has been sinning from the beginning[/b]. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Man has inherited this sinful nature from Adam, who fell into it by the trickery of the devil. So while God creates us, we're still the offspring of our sinful father Adam and hence still possess his sinful genes and nature.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=119070.msg2045567#msg2045567 date=1205250446]@JeSoul

You clearly stated in your last post that God is good and just. So where do mans sinful nature come from. Did God create our sinful nature?[/quote]First off, I did not make it up that man is sinful and that God is just, the bible states it clearly and I provided more than enough scripture for you to chew on.

Now, I also quoted for you Romans 5:12 that also clearly tells us sin entered the world thru Adam:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
And the father of sin himself is the devil, sin did not come from God.

SysUser,
I am proud of you! continue to speak the truth jare! it will continue to pierce and annoy them, just like it did when Jesus spoke it.
Besides this is not really news, catholics and is'lamos shacking up together, have we not known that the catholics and mus'lims serve the same god? This is not the same God of the bible.
Catechism 841 The Church's relationship with the Mus'lims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Mus'lims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful god, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

Grouppoint:
Are you saying that a 3 year old child who gets hit by a car must have sown a bad seed before the accident. What about those born with disabilities? are you saying that in a past life, they must have sown a 'disabled' seed?

GP
I disagree with Nwankwo. . . that 3yr old did not "sow" any bad seed and hence was reaping the reward. It is not true when people say when something tragic happens it's as a result of sin or something they did to deserve it - NOT TRUE!

  there are many things that have happened and will happen in life that we cannot explain or understand. But we know that God is good and that He is just. And that even though it might seem tragic to us it might not really be- in the grand scheme of things.

  For example: it would have been better for Hezekiah in the bible to have died from his sickness, and leave his legacy and soul intact than live 15yrs more and sin against God. death is not always a bad thing! we learn that from scripture my brotha. "Absent from the body is to be present with God"

Grouppoint:
Would you say that some people were lucky to have been born into a wealthy home, while others were unlucky to be born in poverty, or perhaps with disabilities.

No I wouldn't call them unlucky. . .becos what we see from a human point of view as an advantage might not necessarily be in God's sight and in God's plan for that life. Now I would consider myself tremendously blessed that I was born well off and have lived a good life - all by God's grace. But no, I wasn't lucky - just blessed!

Grouppoint:
What about the man who lived a good life, but sinned a few minutes before being killed by armed robbers. Would you not say he was unlucky?
And that other man who turned around for good at the age of 70, only to go to heaven after 69yrs of decandent sin and 1 month of righteousness. Wont you say he was lucky?

1st man: will still go to heaven becos all his sins have been washed away! As long as he was living a righteous life, falling into sin (becos we all fall sometimes) does not negate the work of salvation, as long as he is trusting in Christ to save him.
2nd man: Read the story of the workers in the bible. Mathew 20: Some had been working all day, while some worked only an hr or two BUT they were all paid the same salary at the end of the day. When some complained, Jesus said, "what is it to you what I pay others? did you not receive your rightful pay? why are you angry at my generosity?"

It is not correct to say that it is natural to commit sin. Sin is unatural, it is a negation of what God wills and whatever is against the will of God is unatural. We are not hardwired to sin. On the contrarly, we are inherently good. We sin because we choose to do so.

Has thou not heard of the sinful nature my dear brotha?

    Rm6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,that we should no longer be slaves to sin because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
 
Rm8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Rm8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

2 Peter 2:18
For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

  By the above verse we see that it is in our very nature to be sinful! we are not inherently good but infact evil!
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
 
We sin becos that is our nature that was handed to us from Adam. When we accept Christ, He crucifies our sinful nature that we might begin to live by the Spirit and hence not gratify the desires of our flesh. If we weren't innately corrupt then why did Christ have to come and die for us?

Ujujoan:
Why do some christians still comit sin?

becos we are still human and as long as we are still in this sinful bodies we will commit sin. It is not possible for us to be sinless here on earth, that's just our nature. The book of Romans teaches a lot on this issue.

becos as a christian your life has been surrended to God and He has control over everything that happens to you. and He uses everything to your benefit whether good or bad (Rm8:28) - so there's really no room for "luck" or "by chance".
Remember "every good and perfect gift comes from above" and He orders your steps, commands His angels concerning you as you walk by faith and causes things to happen/ not happen in your life.

Cheers!

Yes please post ur source.

Emperoh:
Monsignor Girotti led the confession refresher corse because surveys had revealed that the number of people going was declining.

hmmm could it be becos people are wising up to the fact that it is impossible for priests to actually forgive sins.

human scholarship? vs the absolute inerrancy of the Almighty God and His word?
human reasoning vs the fact that God can never be wrong or make a mistake?


I don't think there's anything else I have to add to this thread.

I shall draw this discussion to an end with this,
true bible believing christians believe that the bible does not contain any errors or inconsistencies!

and we believe this not becos humans are above error, but becos God is above error and He is more than able to ensure the survival and integrity of His word all thru thousands of yrs. These so-called inconsistencies usually fall flat when read in context, compared and lined up with other scriptures etc.

imhotep:
Good. The issue at stake is -> 'inconsistencies in the bible'
When you find yourself using Paul to neutralize the words of Jesus, think again. Paul cannot contradict his Master.
Were Paul's letters an attempt at interpreting the four Gospels?

That's the point Imhotep! they are not Paul's words! It's the word of God spoken through Paul. Regardless of who wrote or spoke it, it is all inspired by the HolySpirit and is scripture and it therefore cannot contradict each other.
If you hold that it can contain errors then I don't see how you can call it the word of God or inspired. Is our God now too small to write a book and make sure that everything lined up? that there were no errors?
Is that the kind of god you serve? one that can't keep his story straight in a simple book?
No, that is not the God who split the red sea, who stop the sun in its tracks and made it go back, who flooded the earth, who resuced Daniel, who did so many great and wondrous things.
The catholic church is saying this God cannot keep his story straight in a mere book?

Imhotep, now we're getting somewhere. . .

I read ur link and this was my response. . .
I quote from ur link "The Roman Catholic Christian view (especially since the Second Vatican Council) holds that the Bible is inerrant only in the things that God intended to reveal, the inconsistencies being deemed not to belong to these, or being deemed to be figurative and/or allegory."

Cassiel I think we finally have our answer!

The catholic church believes only the parts of the bible that don't contradict their traditions. They therefore can claim to justify all these extra and contra-biblical teachings becos those "parts" of the bible were probably "figurative" and not meant to be applied literally.
So therefore when all those millions of verse say that God alone forgives sins - they were not really meant to be taken literally.
But when Jn 20 said the apostles forgives and people will be forgiven, they take it literally. They apparently have picked which parts of the scriptures to deem acceptable or not, meant to be taken literally or not. and this selection appears to be based on whether or not that particular verse contradicts their own traditions or canon.
WOW! to any bible-believing christian this is just plain sad.

imhotep:
/
Not at electric dance at all, but issues to be clarified.

- Since there appears to be two sets of scriptures, why should I choose one and reject the other?
- What informs my decision to choose one and reject the other?

- What stops me, imhotep, from assembling a collection of ancient manuscripts that appeal to me personally - and declaring them to be scripture also

you're still not getting where I'm headed. We're not talking about validating which set of scripture is the true one right now.
Lets just say for discussion sake that the catholic canon and bible are the "true" scriptures. Okay.
Now these are the scriptures that you believe in right? good. Biafran had listed them above as: 1.The bible 2.Sacred traditions and 3.Divine revelations

Now:
1. Can your scripture contradict another part of your scripture?

2. Is all of this catholic canon/scripture equally the word of God?

I think these questions are very straightforward and easily have yes or no answers. Thanks.

Teriba

What JeSoul is describing here is a form of addiction. One of my friends once told me that I tended to go down in his estimation whenever I talked about going to a sporting event. My reply then was the same as what Gamine posted here. I simply had to draw his attention to the fact that he was the most womanising friend I`ve ever had. So I think watching sports on TV or going to the stadium to watch a football match is not the most damaging addiction in this world.
To the ladies that find this type of addiction annoying, let us know what your own addictions are, please.

yes its an addiction! Look at Neoblacks post below,

Soccer for me is so important thing in my life, i can't afford to loose any Premier, La liga, UEFA, Scottish, L1, L2, Master Cup, Seria A. and love it so much.

LOL. . . aren't these the words of an addicted man? this is the kind of passionately crazy I was talking about.
Neo what drives this thing in you?

deola1:
i no know oh! na before i dey cry for the lazy eagles but now na high blood pressure. I no know wetin them do me oh, esp against benin rep. guys e no easy oh!

ROTFL high blood pressure indeed!

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=116335.msg2027467#msg2027467 date=1204779380]@ cassiel

i suggest u read James 5:16 which directs us to confess to each other and pray for each other. it is biblical.[/quote]*shaking my head* uhm no.
that is a misuse of that verse. It says to confess your faults and pray for each other. . . it does NOT say we forgive each others sins! those are two very different things.

here's another example of a conclusion drawn based on one scripture when a million other scriptures contradict this conclusion that it is God alone who forgives sins.

Cassiel:
Till now Imhotep, i still don't understand why because nobody has been able to give a clear,comprehensive and concise explanation.

lol. . . My sister don't hold your breath becos there is no answer, that's why instead of answering the simple questions they keep on "getting offended" or getting angry we're "bashing catholics".
If you cannot logically and scripturally prove your beliefs, and reach a conclusion that does not directly contradict another part of scripture then something is wrong somewhere.

Instead you're talking about historical,canonical,symbolic and rational ways of studying the bible.

Lol. . . na so I see am my sister.

imhotep:
Good. But if we do not define what we mean by scripture, we cannot adequately address these questions.

You're doing the electric slide around my very simple question. Lets just say scripture whether it is all the catholic books& canons or whatever or the protestant bible alone - whichever

1. Can scripture contradict scripture? whether it is the catholic bible or the protestant 66 books?

2. Is all of scripture equally the word of God?

once you answer these two questions we can really move forward in this discussion.

you know what imhotep, I don't want to get into who gave us the bible becos that will not help this discussion right now. Becos we can go on and on on that topic.

If you can just give me a simple answer to these, it'll be a whole lot more productive.

1. Can scripture contradict scripture? whether it is the catholic bible or the protestant 66 books?

2. Is all of scripture equally the word of God?

thanks.

imhotep:
Did you work out this number biblically, prophetically or mathematically? Or are you dropping a dogma for me?

Nope, it wasn't me. Blame it on the early church. and 66 is not a magic number, it just happened the books added up to it.

If it is a dogma, then on whose authority is it defined? And why should I accept this authority?

on the authority of the early church, which was established after Jesus left. Not by a grp of men hundreds of yrs later.

Who decides which one should be included in the bible and which one should be excluded? Why should we believe/disbelieve this person(s)

And you can ask this exact question to ur leaders in the catholic church. Who said they were the chosen ones that could jump up and take this power for themselves and make decrees that they had no power to do so in the first place!

We can believe the bible becos it came from the early church led by the apostles of Jesus Christ. Not by some fellas who got together hundreds of yrs later and instilled on themselves the power.

ty4real:
I can see that you enjoy going around like a senseless kid who does not know how to potray himself and you yet flaunt the fact that you are so aged!I am appalled that on a religious thread that has been going on smoothly without any exchange of vulgar words you could show your level of immaturity and be engaging in what senseless kids do!You are most celebrated hypocrite I have met on this forum!
In short you really need an overhauling of your psyche!

my brotha ignore him jare. There'll always be people like this prowling round looking for trouble.

imhotep:
@Jesoul
First of all, what is scripture You have to define this first.

lol. . . trust a nigerian to answer a question with a question

Scripture is the 66books of the bible that we currently have. I'll explain more in response to ur other question below.

No one person (or group) sat down one day and decided to write books in the bible from Genesis to Revelation. Each book was written at its own time and under specific cultural contexts that must be understood very well before interpretation. There are many many such books flying around, till this day.

True all these books were written at very different times, thousands of yrs apart. During Jesus time it is pretty clear there already existed a set of scriptures (which Jesus himself quoted and refered to many many times). So I don't think the validity of the old testament should be under any question.
So obviously the catholic church did not give us the OT, since Jesus himself referred and quoted it many time while He was on earth. 1 mistruth already refuted by Jesus himself.

And yes there are a couple books flying around today as anyone who could read and write could make up whatever mumbo jumbo they wanted and call it holy. But as long as these books are not part of the bible, there are not holy or inspired by God.

This is part of why the Synod of Hippo (393 AD) was held and examined many of these books in detail - thereafter select those that were considered to be Divinely inspired. For over 2000 years our bibles have been standing on the authority of this Synod (a synod is just a meeting).

We need to make something very clear here. Scripture was written by the apostles - as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. The early church saw and recognized these writings from the apostles as inspired of God and accepted them as scripture. The early church did not establish scripture, they merely recognized and accepted it - very important point.

The catholic church came along couple hundred yrs later - after the church had already been in existence and operation and made their own claims as to what was scripture, thereby giving themselves the power to include or exclude whatever they want. When there was already a church of Jesus Christ established and what was known and accepted as scripture.

Now back to my original questions:
Since scripture are the 66 books of the bible alone,
1. Can scripture contradict another scripture?

2. Is all of scripture equally the word of God?

imhotep you're still not answering my query, so how about we break this down into a series of easily answerable questions?

1. Can scripture contradict another scripture?

2. Is all of scripture equally the word of God?


answer those questions then we'll take it from there.

Colossians 2:9
"For in Christ there is all of God in a human body. So you are filled with God through your union with Christ"

Amazing verse to every believer!

plc
okay I have noticed you. happy?
your responses are not even worthy of a reply. While I disagree mightly with imhotep he has conducted himself well and not descended into name-calling or insults - like mature people do and I applaud him.
You on the other hand need to clean up your vocab & speech - might i suggest merriam-webster's online dictionary and thesaraus?

olabowale:
@JeSoul: Fatwa, if proclaimed under proper Great Religious rule, it is self-defense and it is justifiable. Self-defense should not be looked as only individual, but community or societal as well!

so this is how you people justify taking other peoples lives? how frivolous! what rubbish!

Self defense is only when another person is trying to kill you, or your wife or child or someone else and by protecting that person/yourself you end up killing the attacker. This is the only time killing is justifiable!

Just becos someone insults your religion or prophet or whatever that gives you ZERO right to kill them! There is freedom of speech and granted some people abuse it but it is still their right. Fatwa is nonsense and can never be justified. Live and let live for crying out loud!

Surprising that you are a christian but your statement above simply disregard what Jesus is recorded to have said in the Bible as concerning what one should do with the eye that causes one to sin!

what does that have to do with fatwa and its injustifiable killing of innocent people?
FYI: Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute or insult us
Mo'hammed commanded ya'll to go and kill those same people - he's outta his mind! what other people say against you can never warrant or justify killing them. Period.