₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=115214.msg1993815#msg1993815 date=1203956994]@JeSoul,
I understand the way you feel. And to be candid, the first time I listened to Joel osteen, I felt exactly the same way you feel. I remember discussing it with my friends and expressing concern that he wasn't really teaching salvation nor pointing to Jesus as much as I felt he should.

Some time later when I listened to his message, he actually did request for those who would like to be christians to say the prayer of salvation with him, though he never asked them to come forward. It then occured to me that ministering could very well be taking place much more outside what we see on TV. My church is on TV too, and I know the Pastor tries to keep within an hour for the benefit of those on TV. However, when the hour is up, he delves deeper into ministry with people available. I want to believe that is the case with JO except someone who attends his meeting tells me otherwise. The last time he was in Minneapolis, I know our church provided ministers to help in the work of the ministry. I don't see him working diametrically opposed to the Church, but in agreement with it.

As for his messages, please listen to them and tell us if at any time you find anything he says contrary to the principles in the Bible. While I do not listen to him much, I must confess that the few times I do, I find someone teaching the principles within the Bible without necessarily quoting from it verbatim. Some may not think this shouldn't be so, and I agree to an extent. But the fact remains that he is teaching the principles from the bible and he does not hide the fact that he gets his inspiration from it.

Can I stay under his ministry for long? I don't think so. But then, who know what he teaches on Wednesdays. For all you know that message of inclusion may be just for Sundays when you get all sorts of people. Wednesday services in my church as in most, is where the real teachings take place. Sunday tends to be more of encouragement.

I'm not trying to encourage you to believe in him. Just that I don't think he deserves all these criticisms. Granted, he would have done better with the interview by quoting the Bible directly, but he still made it known that if you ask him, the way to heaven is Jesus Christ, and that is all that saves. And if I may add, the use of the phrase "I don't know" seems to be something he says a lot as a habit. That I think explains why he used it so many times in the interview. And besides, i appreciate someone who is candid and admits his lack of knowledge to those who claim to know everything.[/quote]Tayo I understand your need to not be judgemental or give the guy a break but think about it here brotha[b], this man fits to a tee the description of a false prophet in sheeps clothes! [/b]

True he doesn't come out and say things that are in direct contradiction to the word - he's smarter than that and it would immediately give him away.

True he preaches on biblical principles and uses scripture

But you're missing the most glaring sign of them all!!!!
HE REFUSES TO PREACH ABOUT SIN!!!

he's talking about making people's lives better- THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST!!! it's a false gospel!

The gospel of Jesus Christ is about how man is inherently sinful and how God sent His only Son to deliver man from his sin! This is the gospel!
Not about your best life now, or 10 steps to a better you or any other nonsense.


2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Galatians 1:6
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Paul said if anyone preaches to you a gospel, let him be condemned. Joel Osteen does not preach the TRUE GOSPEL of sin and repentance. He preaches one of your best life now! and that is a false gospel, which makes him a false preacher and according to Paul he'll be eternally condemned.

oloriooko:
This serves as a warning to someone trying to comprehend spiritual truths with a depraved mind

Words of wisdom! and if only all the atheists masquerading around the religion forum would understand this one simple fact!

lafile:
I still can't get over that Joel Osteen interview with Larry King. I felt so ashamed that one of the "Biggest Men of God" in America simply could not say on cable TV that Jesus was the Only way to God. Larry gave the guy more that one opportunity to share his belief with the whole world but he declined. His 'I don't know' mantra just smelt of uncertainty. Why should i regard such a person so unsure. I mean, if He's not sure of the way of salvation, how is he better than the great prophet?

I watched him now and again on TV, and I really didn't get the hang of it. Yes, I believe in renewing the mind. Prov. 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. and Prov 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: and Matt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things are enough to convince me. However, the whole Lakewood church setting kind of felt like hypnotism (for want of a better word) to me. The dark church building and soft spoken ways of Dr Joel feels like a Psycho analysts office. There really is nothing there that points to Jesus.
Just my opinion sha

LOL. . . I remember watching that interview and dropping my jaw in complete shock to the answers JO gave. The next day I emailed all my friends and made sure everyone knew who this man was and that no one listened to any more of his so called sermons. America's so-called #1 pastor doesn't even know the way to heaven and if you need Jesus to get there! that is bible-101 and even some atheists can tell him what the bible says.

  No one can convince me Joel Osteen is a christian, his actions have spoken very loudly, and time and time again have proven he does not know this God that he claims to preach about.

4Him,
I shall be waiting for your post on JO. The bible commands us to "expose evil" so power to you my brotha!

  Tayo-D,
I usually take something away from your posts but I am dissapointed in your responses here and I can't believe any bible-beliving and reading christian anywhere can look at Joel Osteen, Paula White, Creflo Dollar and co and not immediately point out that they are everything the bible warns us about false prophets!    We have the evidence right in front of our eyes why oh why are we making excuses for them? 

wow Doyin! you're such a hater!
It's okay, I forgive you!

doyin13:
Congress is standing up for solid American principles in inquiring into the taping saga.

*Sneezes and Coughs*
Did you just say congress is standing up for "solid american principles" by inquiring 'bout the taping? Nah I think you musta mis-typed.

Congress always stands up against Special Interests when fundamental Constitutional principles are endangered.

you musta been kidding here right? The only thing congress stands up for is to collect their paychecks and in this instance put their face/names in the media. If it doesn't profit them they won't do it. So don't think for one second they actually care.

And there is no beigger special interest in american sports than the New England Patriots

The Pats organization is one of if not the most well-run and structured sports orgs. They're no richer than the one next door in NY and Dallas etc. . . they don't hoarde the best players in the leauge and then flaunt it, they don't make noise and cause trouble, the only reason you and others hate them is becos they work hard and WIN! why is that such a turn off?
and why are you sipping hatorade simply becos they run their company well? If you're going to accuse NE, accuse NY and Dallas and SD and GB and every team in the NFL! no prejudice!

Tasma:
Right JeSoul,
I said a lot of the Biblical stories don't seem credible and you are saying that they simply must be accepted as they are. That one must apply enough faith to nollify the need for any critical, scientific analysis of any Biblical story.

yes yes yes! you're getting the point Tasma. Though I kinda suspect you already knew this

In that sense I'm not sure if we are really discussing the topic of the post reasonably. Why? Well because you have simply gotten us to the point that says believe everything in the Bible because it is the Bible and thus does not need to be explained reasonably.

You're kind of right. I'll tell you right now there is no christian on earth that can explain to you everything in the bible, it's just so in-depth and complicated sometimes. And trying to reason out or rationalize faith and Christ and God based principles with your human brain will result in a headache. A lot of the times biblical principles can only be understood with the help of the holy spirit. That's why I keep saying for non-christians trying to understand the bible from a secular point of view will be very frustrating and unproductive.
  But it is the word of God, and because of that simple fact, it cannot be questioned and doubted.

I've always found that stand a bit curious, that stand means any other religious group may claim their ways are "the way" because their knowledge is divinely inspired and thus cannot be questioned by anyone. Funny enough if God created us with critical minds to help us survive in a changing natural environment, isn't it strangely worrying that He would actually want us to shelf our reasoning faculties when it comes to understanding him and his nature?

You are also onto something here and I totally get your point
  Yes God did give us minds and brains to think and reason out the world around us, like I said before I myself am a scientist. BUT there is a limit to what our minds can discover and comprehend and the wise man is one who knows what this limit is and knows when to let faith take over.
 
Thanks Tasma for providing a topic where we can engage in good discussion! 

KAG:
It's not so much the miracle as the absence of any thing showing that an event has occured.Let's go back to the flood. The problem isn't so much that the event couldn't have occured, but that the evidence that it occured is suspiciously lacking. That is, cultures, history and gelogic features and happenings carried on unperturbed. To then make a literal reading of Noah's flood work, it becomes necessary to claim that perhaps the Judeo-Christian God cleaned up afterwards and then proceded to make it appear like nothing happened by implanting false memories and supplanting the environment. Like I said, it presents a shoddy and deceptive entity.

You're still beating around the same bush KAG. They're multitudes of scientists both christian and non-christian who've put forth theories that either show the flood could or could not have happened. A lot of the time it comes down to their personal opinion. And it comes down to you or anyone one else, you'll either believe the biblical account or not whether there is proof or not.

Um, you had to implant your own external notions into both texts to make your version seem feasible to you.

Your opinion and I respect but vehemently disagree with it.
To me its plain logic and accepted everywhere: If one statement can be true without the other being wrong/both true without excluding the possiblity of the other, then I really don't get what the hassle is all about This is plain logic.

Um. no, not even close. Notice again that you aren't being literalist in your interpretation. The field purchased was the same field: "the field of blood. It got its name in the Matthew account from from the sale involving the pieces of silver given to Judas to betray Jesus, and in Acts because Judas died in it.

I gave you one possiblity, another many people have put forth is that the pharisees took the money and bought the field like it says in the text, but the author in acts attributed the purchase of the field to Judas becos it was his money, though the pharisees bought it. Another possibility. I don't know which is the right one and will not pretend to.

But if you or anyone else is going to discredit the bible based on this one so-called contradiction that many theories have been put forth to answer, I think that is highly disingenious. The bible is 66books long, and the only evidence to say it's not trustworthy is this lil' query with Judas?

To make that possible, the forces governing motion will have to be shoddily reworked. More importantly, though, yet again, the memories of everyone else on Earth would have to be tampered with, their envionments too would need reworking in such a way as to make the original miracle both unnecessary and unbelievable.

Could not disagree more.
Again you're saying this evidence of the sun going backward is absent. . .what kind of evidence would you be looking for to prove this did or didn't happen?
Like I said before there's tons of work already done of this supporting or attempting to disprove this possiblity and I don't really have anything new to add to them. . .each person will believe what they want. I'm not going to pretend like I have all the answers and can explain everything, no way. And some things I cannot prove or disprove. And the sad thing is all these miracles are not even close to the primary message of the bible, that's not what is important and God is not intrested in proving His existence or supremacy or sovereignty to man.

But relying on "proof" and "evidence" in order for you to believe in the bible is pointless. It really is. Faith puts your heart in a position to be receptive and learn what really is true. Using your mere intellect with prove frustrating nd get you nowhere.

Sabisabi:
Everywhere is obama who born monkey self. Wetin concern us with obama. I am tired of this obama this and that abeg. Is it obama who will feed me. Lets talk about Naija not someone who is living far from Nigeria. Does obama know or care about Nigeria, the answer is no, so why we go care about him. If obama win does that mean the prise of goods go become cheap. Make una carry go jare.

ROTFL
Sabisabi you are one funny guy!

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=112834.msg1985732#msg1985732 date=1203698306]@Jesoul
You want Chad Johnson and Randy Moss in the same thing hmm thats what they call long throat so whats the latest with Belichick and his spygate issues ?[/quote]hehe na longthroat indeed! I would love the "fun" aspect Chad would bring but I sense Belicheck might squash that out of him
and speaking of Bill, he gave an interview to the globe that he apologized for the embarrasment and punishment he caused to the team and now those jobless congress senators have been talking to Goodell 'bout why he destroyed the tapes and i think they scheduled an "inquiry sometime next mth?. . . frankly I think they're tryn to beat a dead horse back to life.

As for Roger he sounds guilty but i don't think anything would happen he would lose his cred no Hall of fame thats for sure but besides that i just feel this case might just be swept under the carpet

under which carpet? big hell to the no! after the way Bonds was publicly crucified, the least they must now do is crucify Clemens too. Or else Jesse Jackson and Sharpton must bring their hypocritical selves out for a "just cause".

  Roger must also accept some asterisks next to at least 5 cy young awards. ***** I cannot stand the greed and arrogance he exudes 

Alphazee:
@JeSoul
A cross can be made from a tree alright, but does that make the cross a tree? 

Just like Milk can be derived from a cow, or a goat; if I tell you I bought  "milk" will you tell your friends I bought a cow or a goat?

my my what faulty shaky reasoning we have here. . .
  are you now going to doubt that the cross was made of wood? which is gotten from a tree?
a quick wikipedia or google search will show you detailed historical records that people crucified in that time were on crosses made of wood. What are going to say it was made of? iron? gold?

If Jesus was nailed to a cross doesn't common sense tell you it could not have been metal or silver or gold? but that it was wood? or maybe I'm asking too much for the perpetraitors to use their common sense here.

  ^*hisses* how ridiculous is this topic! 

therationa:
Are you saying that the was no sins until the laws were given?

Permit me to answer that question before Thera twists it into something else. Sin entered the world through Adam, since then sin has existed.
   Rom5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world.

  plus everyone that has ever existed in the history of the world had and has a law to follow, it's a moral code inscribed into every human being, inherent in every one of us.
  Rom 2:14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

KAG:
Since the emphasis here is on literalism, that should mean my views on miracles are irrelevant.

I don't think so. Tasma is asking if we believe all the miracles in the bible actually happened. If you don't believe in miracles then you've already answered no to that question.
Based on what I've said so far you've concluded I'm prob not a "strict literalist" - I'm not sure what you classify as a strict literalist but all I know is I believe everything written in the bible.

The problem isn't reconciling the Bible, its the reverse: reconciling a literal reading of certain texts with, in some cases, every facet of scientific findings.

You led me to my next point . . . like i said b4 there's no point in trying to reconcile some stories in the bible with known and accepted scientific principles. Becos the essence of a miracle is that it cannot be explained in the first place!

Rather than point out that the explanation proffered is spurious IMO,

lol. . . def in your opinion brotha. I think the fact that both verses can be true without contradicting the other should be more than sufficient an answer to ur challenge.

I'll state instead that you're not being a strict literalist. Further, you haven't reconciled the purchase of the field.

Okay maybe I'm not a strict literalist according to you, really makes no difference to me as long as what I believe and stand for is pretty clear.
The purchase of the field is also the same, one doesn't contradict the other and it is also one you need to have read another part of the bible to solve.
We're told in John 12 that Judas was a theif and frequently stole from the disciples "no intrest-savings account" (okay my words)

4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because [b]he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

The verse in Acts 1 says "With the reward he got for his wickedness (or the reward of iniquity), Judas bought a field". With the money he stole he bought a field. . .it doesn't say the money he got from the Pharisees! It simply says with the reward/money he had gotten thru his wickedness, obviously thru his stealing he used to buy a field. Since we're already told he was a theif and frequently stole from the other disciples/Jesus. This should sufficiently answer ur question.

Like I said, when the explanation to try to explain away the disreprancies is even more miraculous than the one reported in the Bible itself, then you know you have a problem. That view seems awfully fraught with

I really don't see how any of the explanations I've shown amount to being more incredible than the story itself. It seems pretty straightforward, there's no manipulation whatsoever, just plain logic.
If both can be true without contradicting the other, then where's the beef?

WISDOM!!!
Prv 3:13 Blessed is the man who finds wisdom,
the man who gains understanding,
14 for she is more profitable than silver
and yields better returns than gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies;
nothing you desire can compare with her.

doyin13:
Why not the twins, . . . .i don't have a particular team. . .so i root for the underdog
I no dey live for Yankee na.

I hear you. I usually go for the underdog . . .long as they ain't playing a beantown team (except hockey, then I don't care  )

Let's jus say in my past life I was a Bolshevik. . . .Hence my hatred for these money bag ostentatious teams

I know, I feel you small. Becos if the smaller teams had the same kind of overly devoted fans willing to throw away tens of thousands of dollars away, they would spend it too.
  Imagine a playoff ticket last yr costing 25 grand last yr in boston?  and someone actually bought it! now that kind of stuff does annoy me.

I define it in terms of my hatred for an idea, person or team. . .its a refresing viewpoint on life and often those who have too much money are subjects of my wrath

How noble! lol . . .do you dress and play Robin Hood on the weekends too? j/k at least your passion has some direction and composition to it

B T W. . . . . .OCHO CINCO SAYS HI

Hi Ocho baby! you look real good in those "go-daddy" commercials 

He loves the idea of working with Jake Delhomme in Carolina. . .lovely community team. Good fans and egalitarian to boot

1 night game with Tom Brady and you'll forget who Jake Delhomme is! 

**in any case. . . no mind my hostility as you put it. Jus playing good cop bad cop

shhh don't tell Doyin I enjoy his input very much Always gotta love and sympathize with a boston hater. iHolla!

KAG:
Yup. The amount o mental gymnastics required to be a strict literalist is beyond any one.

nope. No mental gymastics here brotha . . . faith faith and more faith! that's all I can say to you.

Oh no, I'm claiming at this point that there can't be miracles,

therefore any further discussion might not really be fruitful Becos we need a common ground to work off from. If you don't believe in miracles then there's no point in discussing how it might have happened in the first place or how science can justify it or anything else about it

but when the explanation to try to explain away the disreprancies is even more miraculous than the one reported in the Bible itself, then you know you have a problem. For instance, since the flood story has been mentioned, to explain how the flod could happen and how the evidence for it can be virtually non-existent, literalists of the flood account have to turn the Christian God into a shoddy, somewhat deceptive being. Their explanations have become so outrageous that the flodd as reported in the Bible is the least miraculous thing. I hope that makes sense.

Kinda. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.
Like I'd mentioned to Tasma above, I think it is really pointless to try to reconcile science with some biblical events and those who go to the ends of the universe with wild theories to try and "validate" the scriptural account are wasting their time and those who listen to them. I'm not down with those outrageous claims as you say but simply take what I'm given in the bible as all I really needed to know about it. I mean who cares how the earth got flooded? or how we 'evolved' or whatever? I know I'm a science head and we like to figure out and investigate things but still I recognize when a search might be pointless and avoid it. Especially if it makes no difference in my 'practical' life.

   I simply hold that not all biblical events can be explained by science, but it doesn't make it any less believable to me that is.

Not if you're a strict literalist. The contradictions are remarkably difficult to explain away when one isn't a literalist. They are impossible to explain when one sticks to literalism.

On occasion I've posted the Easter challenge (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-47997.0.html). To my knowledge, it has never been reconciled. Many attempts have been made using non-literalist methods. I don't see how literalism can fare.

Or, another example, the case of Judas. Two canonnical books report thus:


Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Matthew 27:
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in.

Notice the disreprancies. How can they possibly be reconciled by a strict literalist? Notice also, that those verses aren't necessarily salvation issues if taken in a certain spirit.

I think most christians on this forum are usually suspicious of challenges because 99% of them are rarely honest one.
but brotha there is no contradiction because both can be true without contradicting each other! one verse does not exclude the possibility of the other one. Judas coulda hung himself, died, then his body fell and all that nastiness gushed out.
 

Then you are not a strict literalist. A strict reading of biblical instances like the sun going backwards for Hezekiah and references to an unmovable Earth strongly support geocentricism.

I think the big thing you need to know is that I firmly believe God can do absolutely anything, anything. So if He chose that day to have the sun move instead of the earth, I believe it. If He chose to make the earth stop and become unmoveable - then it so be it. So saying I'm down with geocentrism might be kind of right  depending on the day and the miracle God chose to do.

here's a free tip alphazee:

if you can tell us what the crosses they hung people from were made of, I promise it'll open up a whole new world of insight you previously didn't know about

Option A: trees
Option B: wood
Option C: I refuse to accept trees or wood as the answer for no good reason.

KAG:
I'm pretty sure you're not a strict literalist.

ah ah I'm telling you I believe the bible 100% and I'm the strictest of the strictest literalists n you're saying you're sure I'm not? 

How did I form that opinion? From knowing the Bible. Instances in the Bible, if read literally, not only contradict reality and misses the point - the purpose of the tale gets shrouded in attempts at historicism and revisionism, they also contradict other literally interpreted verses and chapters [i]in[/i[]/b] the Bible.

Of course many bible stories defy understanding and contradict the norm or science or "reality" as you put it. That's why they were called miracles! Duh!

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
mir·a·cle Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mir-uh-kuhl]
–noun 1. [b]an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause. 

  If you now say you don't believe in miracles then there'll be nuthin left to discuss because that'll be the fundamental difference that makes any future conversation useless. plus every so-called "contradiction" in the bible is an illusion n can n has been refuted. Next. . .

Okay, let's try just the one for now. Are you a geocentrist? That is, do you believe the Earth is stationary and evrything revolves around it? Based on your reply, we'd see if there's a necessity to point out other things that can't be taken literally.

I'm wary of taking this route you want to use.
Here let me make this clear. . . I believe pretty much everything that's been established in science and written in textbooks except where the science contradicts or doesn't support the biblical account. There I draw the line. Or in other words, the bible is my first book of reference and all other books must bow to it and agree with it or else never make it to my bookshelf,
 
  So no. I believe as science teaches, that the earth revolves around the sun.

What kind of scientist are you?

I like to retain complete anonymity but I shall oblige you this time, I'm in drug discovery/development, Process Sciences but mostly protein analytics.

KAG:
In my opinion, it's virtually impossible to be a strict Biblcal literalist.

did you say impossible? this forum and a large percentage of the world, including myself are "strict bible literalists" so I'm not sure how you formed that opinion. I believe every word, syllable, comma, full stop, impossible sounding, scandalous, incredible, beautiful, perfect, hopeful story in the bible. You wan try?
And you're talking to a scientist here, I've heard it all in this field but I'll take my bible over any nobel prize winner textbook or thesis or theory any day! so don't say it's impossible at all.

  Anyways

Tasma

Tasma:
Ok JeSoul,
so what happens when scientific knowledge refutes something that is alledged to have happened in the Bible. If the Bible describes a flood that wiped out the earth and there is no evidence to back it up, do you just accept it? If the Bible says that a single family built a boat that carried two - male and female - of every animal on this earth does this really sound literally right to you. You may say that the scientific tools to check this details are faulty but remember that it's the same scientific principles that are used to built the car you drive, the computer you use, rocket ships that go to the moon.

Isn't it more likely that the Biblical stories are mythical but still bear a message. Again would love to hear your reply.

I think the first thing you need to understand is that it is near impossible to expect science to explain everything the bible says happened. . .so if that's what you're looking for, you won't find it. There are proposed theories from both sides supporting or denouncing the flood - if you do an internet search you'll find lots and lots of them so I don't think we need to go over them here one by one.

  It all comes down to you honestly. . .because in spite of the evidence supporting or not supporting those biblical stories you will believe what you want- whether there is proof or not. And also remember the essence of a miracle is that it is a miracle! it cannot be explained. It's up to you to accept and believe it. The work of God and salvation cannot be proven scientifically, that's not the way it works. yet there are millions and millions of us whose lives have been changed completely. It's something you feel and experience personally, and cannot be re-produced in a lab or some other experiment.
Trying to rationalize and reconcile all biblical events with science is in my opinion a waste of time and will usually get you nowhere.
  That's why it is impossible for "outside" readers of the bible to understand and accept it - without faith you cannot understand and accept the bible. Becos Jesus Himself said:
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
The element of faith is above all most important, without it don't waste your time trying to read and understand the bible.
  So no the bible is not a mythical book, if it were it would contradict everything God says He is and that is impossible. Hope this answers your questions! cheers again!

doyin13:
why all the hostility

i support the Twins for chrissakes. . .

Do you knw how that feels


The other New York team just took our ace

ooooh Minnesota fan? nuff said, I feel ur pain
but why the twins now? wetin send you go that direction? At least he didn't go to the yankees or boston! that woulda hurt 10times as much. But give 'em a break, I hear they are "rebuilding" right? it's a shame though, they coulda gotten a whole lot more for Santana.

why all this hostility eh Doyin?

To you Bostonian, . . . . .I warn, the Bambino is back, curse and all. I wonder how long this drought will last.
Shall we say give or take. . .two centuries

God forbid bad thing! We shall overcome for many many years to come. Amin. Amen. Ise.

To those of you in the Bronx. . . .walahi, the league will give you all the best players and you still won't be able to make it to the series again

yes oh! Amen, amin, ise! Down yankees! A-Rod shall be the bane of your existence for the next 10yrs while you all dole out 350milla for ur pain. Amen!

BlackMamba:
Of course Andy handled the situation with honesty and class like a true Bronx Bomber. He should re-focus fast to contribute in the on going dismantling of the Boston championship anomaly which the G-Men has started. However, Andy better be good and win at least 15 games or else he'll get it from the boo birds at Yankee stadium.

lol. . . since when did the bronx jungle become known for honesty and class? Since the likes of A-Rod and co its been more about the dollar, stripping the league of its best players by enticing them with sinfully ridiculous amounts of money and then rubbing it in our faces

Now Boston is getting some payback ya'll wan cry foul? its alright BlackMamba, I forgive you.

I think Andy should be cheered even if he doesn't play his best this season. He's such a great example of how you can fall from grace, but still pick urself up, admit ur fault and move on. That's what I call a man! I love the guy jare!

bawomolo:
ehen you have come with your wahala again. . . I'm answering an honest seeker, something you wouldn't know about. I have seen that its pointless answering your "questions" so I won't even bother with you.

why are u running away like maradonna.

Lol. . . yes oh I am running away from a false pretender, whom I have seen in the past to waste the time of anyone who attempts to have a rational & honest discussion with him. When you're ready to engage honestly holla @me homeboy.

bawomolo:
The bible is the word of God and a history book

the bible has been discarded as an history or archaeological source. if the bible is the word of God, why are their different versions of the bible among christian denominations

if these events weren't meant to be read literally, then God would just be empty, making claims bout who He was but never able to back it up. It would just be a nice story book void of real power in changing people's lives.

do u read the laws of the old and new testament literally? yes or no?

ehen you have come with ur wahala again. . . I'm answering an honest seeker, something you wouldn't know about. I have seen that its pointless answering ur "questions" so I won't even bother with you.

The bible is the word of God and a history book. To say you would only read it for its "spiritual" message would be to miss the whole point entirely by a mile.
God frequently establishes and proves His sovereignty by many miracles and events that occur in the bible, if these events weren't meant to be read literally, then God would just be empty, making claims bout who He was but never able to back it up. It would just be a nice story book void of real power in changing people's lives.

So you couldn't be more wrong when you said "I don't believe that thinking of the bible in this way takes away from the central message of the bible".

The central message of the bible is Jesus coming to die for sinful people. If this never actually happened then there is no message. Why is it so hard to believe those stories? like the crossing of the red sea? or the great flood? or the many miracles? These accounts teach us about the nature of God, that He is all-powerful and we're taught to teach these events to our children and so forth. So to answer your question:

Literal bible belief is not only possible, it is necessary to understand the message of the bible. Cheers!

4Him,  
you try sef no be small. . . answering these kinds of baseless questions from stubborn people who refuse to see whats right in front of them. Common sense needs to make a comeback. . .imagine someone asking if Jesus rode 2 animals at the same time!   what kind of stupid question is that?   when there is no hint or suggestion that He did.

 Therationa,
I now know your kind, and will never take anything you say as remotely honest.

I bet you've never had an original thot in your life. Quit seeking atheist websites for more ammo to use in discrediting christianity. Look around this forum, how many people do you think you've been able to convince with your fundamentally flawed line of irrational reasoning? zero.

ps. Did anyone else see Andy Pettitte's news conference yesterday?

Now that is a believeable man, humble and sorry about his mistakes. I acutally like him now - inspite of the fact he's a yankee
He didn't want to say it but it was clear he believes Roger is lying. Especially since Andy already testified Roger told him he'd taken steroids. He's been known as a christian and came out and did the christian thing - confessed and asked for forgiveness. Unlike some people . . .

MP007:
lol , Jesoul, u want roger "the steroid" clemens to come out clean? are u kiding me? thats jail term, the dude has 7 cyong awards, the best pitcher ever , nah!

At least he took the heat off barry bonds, Clemens, the white barry,

white barry indeed! if only they would go after Clemens with the same fury. All I know is the truth always and must come out. He will go to jail, the liar, no be only Barry and Michael Vick go dey go jail.

That man is just way too arrogant to think we all are so stupid as to believe his lies.

[quote author=j-girl link=topic=112834.msg1970888#msg1970888 date=1203389607]Lol! I didn't even see this topic. He soooooooooooo took steriods! lol - whoever believes otherwise doesn't know what's up[/quote]Abi O my sister! lol. . . It's so obvious that he's lying. The part that is really annoying is for him in his arrogance, thinking he's a god and people should not question him! He's so going down for this!

are you serious? you are no longer borderline crazy, this is full blown insanity! making up controversies where there is none. You are obsessed and need to get something checked!

ocho cinco:
Ocho Cinco baby. . . .please say the baby

ocho cinco baby, will you please come to boston? huh? sweetie? I guarantee you it is much better than cincinnati

hmmm Gamine and Otele . . . is there something going on we nairalanders need to know about?

yes oh, alla is definately not God, he's just another one of them posers like buddha and co. . . 

dason4life:
@POSTER
I don’t know o!

why you no know?

ocho cinco:
I wouldn't be found dead in Boston

If you catch my drift. . .

I no dey catch that kin drift! lol.
Common ocho cinco, ocho cinco would do great in NewEngland! about least 100%more touchdowns than he got in stripes. Besides I think he looks better in Red, white and blue rather than that orange peel.

BlackMamba:
The only reason I'm interested in the inquiry is to level the playing field following the venomous attack on Barry Bond, in the name of cleaning the sport. Barry took whatever most players were taking to turn himself into a super slugger. The unrelenting investigation and prosecution is simply because he is black. I'm really interested to see how the feds go after Mr. Clemens for perjury. There is already more evidence than they had against Barry. And the republican congressmen acting like jerks? No one gave Barry the benefit of doubt, even with less glaring evidence.

PED is all over the place. With guys like David Ortiz becoming an overnight terror for the Red Sucks after a journey man career with the Twins.

All I'm saying is that if the government wants to waste tax payers money chasing Roid and HGH users, it should be an equal opportunity waste, without regard to race or color.

ah ah which one be ur own with Big Papi? he's still 32 yrs and has been relatively the same size. Not like Clemens exploding on his way past 45 yrs! and still that big and strong? I smell a rat! a very big, juiced rat!

But I do agree with you they need to pursue Clemens with the same fury as they did Barry or else we shall cry foul!

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=112834.msg1958284#msg1958284 date=1203070212]Never been a big baseball fan but i am not sure i even know who to believe between McNamee and Clemens its a case of two liars who can possibly be telling the truth among them but when you start looking at the build of some of these players at their ages then you begin to wonder i think Roger Clemens did it though i believe Pettite but hey he isnt the first we got Barry Bonds,Sammy Sosa etc[/quote]Yup he's certainly not the first and there's many that'll never get caught.
I think the difference is that McNamee has nothing to gain whatsoever by lying, and that everything he's said about other players have turned out to be true. Whereas Roger has everything to lose.