₦airaland Forum

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=124301.msg2113008#msg2113008 date=1207078628]The bood of Jesus, the son of God does not wash away sins as many believe. [/quote]wrong.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and[b] the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. [/b]
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

It is indeed an irony that most people accept that Jesus was murdered and yet they accept that the blood shade by murder will forgive sins.

huh? do you realize what you're saying here?  

 

No body has expained why the holy God, the creator of all the worlds will require the blood of his son to forgive the sins of his creatures. Any teaching which requires the shedding of blood for the forgivenes of sin is false no matter the name of such teaching.

HERESY!!
Hebrews 9:22 (Whole Chapter)
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness .

 

Wheather it is animal blood, human blood or the blood of Jesus do not excuse this unholy belief. It is sad that we ascribe to God the activities of ritualists and those that worship lucifer and his followers. God in his purity does not require the blood of his son to save his creatures.

you definately do not know the scriptures becos u are directly contradicting it! pls see the ones i posted above. and add this
Revelation 1:6
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

The word of Truth which Jesus brought is what men need for their salvation. It is a besmirching, a blasphemy, a mocry of the holiness of God when evil and peganistic traditions are ascribed to the Godhead.

No its what you're suggesting that is blasphemy! pls whenever you make these kinds of outrageous ascertions, kindly post the relevant scripture verses to back up your claims.
thanks, but no thanks.

*kindly notice that I learned how to use the quote application, lol*

a round of applause for you Lady for the quote box!  

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=116335.msg2112973#msg2112973 date=1207077338]Could u kindly explain this more. I am a bit confused. How did it stop the spreading of the Gospel. Last I checked the gospel spread wide and far and we can see the result today. abi no be so?[/quote]Yes my dear the gospel did spread but notice the end of my sentence
when people where persecuted they spread, and took the gospel to places it hadn't been before. but with the onset of Constantine, the gospel basically stopped moving[b] like it had been.[/b]

The gospel did not stop moving, else Jesus would have been lying when He said the church would prevail no matter what. But what happened was that since Jerusalem when the church was persecuted, christians spread out to other places, and kept on spreading. But when Constantine decreed christianity the national religion, christians became comfortable, stopped moving to new places and the gospel was not advancing as forcefully as it had been right after Jesus' death and ascension. And this was not a good thing as history has shown us and as Gtunery explained. Hope this clarifies it better.
Cheers.

I have always wondered what the scriptural basis is for "pleading the blood of Jesus" or "covering themselves with the blood of Jesus" or "covering their house or car with the blood of Jesus" etc.

I know His blood washes our sins away but beyond that is there any other biblical application?

ROTFL. . .
you got me . . . I concur alhaji olabowale would have been mighty happy to see it.

Gtunery, 
   you make a lotta great points.

Gtunery:
Evry church is guilty, because what we have is an instituiton which focuses itself on special interest based on their influence, not the sefless act portrayed by Jesus and His deciples.

I agree completely. Church has indeed become institutionalized.

Look at the history of the Christian chuch from the advent of the roman catholic churh, the reformers and present day church. You will find atrocities from bloodshed of the crusades, power thirst, money hungry interests lobbyst, just name it it can go on and on.

Tell that to those in here who are oblivious to early church history, the wickedness they committed in the name of God - without any form of biblical basis

 

The chucrh is more like an institution made to gain control of individuals. That was Romes intention when they made christianity the national religion of the roman empire, a move which enveloped the early christians. christianity was made or fashioned to control and check citizens of the empire, and to be called a roman citizen you must be a christian. That was the begining of the decay of the christian church,

Excellent point!
one church hisotrian mentioned how what Constantine did in barring persecution, and making christianity the national religion was the worst thing that could have happened to us. why? for 2 reasons:

   1. making christianity the national religion stopped the persecution of saints, why is this a bad thing? because it stopped the spreading of the gospel! when people where persecuted they spread, and took the gospel to places it hadn't been before. but with the onset of Constantine, the gospel basically stopped moving like it had been.

2.  making christianity the national religion diluted the church. Becos everyone went to church whether or not they were a real christian. This took away the power of the church, turning it into an institution where people went to gain recognition, avoid penalties and other things like that. Now you have a church full of non-christians who neither know God nor the scriptures nor care about Jesus. And hence the leaders have the power to introduce all kinds of unbiblical new teachings and traditions without opposition from the people.

that was the change that has caused more bloodshed than any cause you can ever imagine, that has caused hatreth, even quarelle among people and disputes, like we have now.

True.

but what The word of God still stands, and that is our guide. I'm not saying the church is evil or bad let us play our path as christians, let us overlookall this my church this my church that, let see ourselves as christians, believers in christ

my dear the word of God def still stands strong. God said heaven and earth will pass away but His word will remain. And I must add that while it is good that we be one and united, we must not kid ourselves with a false sense of unity and security. Jesus Himself said there are many that will say "Lord did we know do this and this in your name?". The fact is millions are being deceived by false churches out there, and it does not start and end with just catholicism, there are protestant, anglican etc. . . the falsehood is by far not just from catholics. The only thing is that like you said let us see ourselves as christians - that rely solely and wholly and completely and ONLY on the bible for our faith. The early church in Rome got into trouble when they started introducing all these extra-biblical traditions that have no scriptural basis. 

SysUser,
  ROTFL . . . be like say you die hard! lol Seun might as well stop banning you because it sure ain't working.
ps. Thanks for those "Church History" links  I learned so much from it and have passed it on to my friends as well. Stay blessed _{and out of trouble}. 

I'm a christian and I love church BUT I think we should be respectful of our neighbors and their space and peace. Serving and praising God does not mean we disrupt the lives of those around us.

  Yes have service, we'll praise God lively and sometimes it'll get real loud but don't exaggerate with speakers that you can hear from the next country, or have round the clock events at 3am on a weeknight when people are trying to sleep and get rest for work the next day. Part of serving and loving God is treating your neighbor like you'd want them to treat you, and respecting their needs.
 
  But poster I think you have few no options. . . unfortunately there's nuthin you can do.

AKO,
I LOVE YOU for raising this point!
judging those in the church (or those who claim to be christians) is our duty.

1Cor5:12
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside.

most people cry foul and accuse you of judging when you're simply telling them what the bible says!

For example, Beyonce is going to hell. Why? not becos I said so but becos she claims to be a christian but by her actions she proves that she is not one. The bible says by their friuts will we know them, and that no one who is born of God wil continue to sin and live a worldly lifestyle. so I'm only telling you what the bible says! I'm not judging her, the bible already did!

But this must never be done maliciously, but in love to bring about the change in the person.
Also you must never be pointing out someone elses fault when you uself have the same problem you haven't dealt with.

lady,
as bart simpson would say "no problemo" . We will all be responsible for what we chose to believe no doubt! whenever discussions arise in the future I hope I'll have the chance to engage you again - in depth.

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=116335.msg2101867#msg2101867 date=1206727374]yeah about the whole quoting thing, how do u do that, am still learning how this site works, it's too much wahala trying to copy and paste the quotes especially since some may not show up on the page when I click reply.

God bless[/quote]got you, it's really worth it though, it helps when your thots and points to specific portions of the other persons post are seperated and flow nicely.
Cheers!

therationa/tpaine/huxley/sungod,

*hisses*
I thot you had retired?
I thot you had become a deist?

*hisses again*

I knew you were just seeking attention and now you are back.

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=116335.msg2094849#msg2094849 date=1206560762]lol, I referred to her as mister too

Sorry JeSoul, sorry girl[/quote]

Uche2nna:
lol.
Sorry ooo, Jesoul. I apologise, No offence meant.

None taken at all Uche & Lady

just one parting word, I plead you to please don't mistake a challenge for an attack, and don't confuse it for bashing or bouthmouthing or condemning. The bible says "we should always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks what we believe". It is not a mistake or coincidence people keep on talking about all these issues that we've raised on this thread. But know this and it should be a sobering thot:
everything said on this thread, the truth or the lies with either justify or condemn you on the last day. Just make sure that you are believing the truth and not a lie.

doyin13:
Me I need a hug ooo. . . .a snug Bostonian one

awwww . . . here you go Doyin. . . a nice big hug complete with a kiss . Plus if you give me your address, I'll mail you a rainbow sprinkled muffin with a cherry on top

plus permit me to sneak this in, you are waaayy to smart & real to be an atheist Doyin . If anything those philosophy classes annoyed me more than anything, infact I was more sure that God existed in-spite of all that confucious-nism. The only thing dem sabi do na ask question upon question, discuss, "theoritize", ponder, reflect, wonder, and then conclude with more questions
I hated every philosophy class I attended, becos it was an endless annoying cycle of theories, philosophies that never reached any real conclusion - what a way to live life!

I left after each class saying "na una sabi, jus leave me alone with my God, bible and Jesus. I'm all set."

I think all sungod simply needs is a hug

side bar: I suspect you are therationa/tpaine/etc re-incarnated - am I right?

I dunno if this song was posted already but it is on the top 10 of my all-time favorites

Third Day
King Of Glory

Who is this King of Glory that persues me with his love
And haunts me with each hearing of His softly spoken words
My conscience, a reminder of forgiveness that I need
Who is this King of Glory who offers it to me

Who is this King of angels, O blessed Prince of Peace
Revealing things of Heaven and all its mysteries
My spirit¹s ever longing for His grace in which to stand
Who's this King of glory, Son of God and son of man

His name is Jesus, precious Jesus
The Lord Almighty, the King of my heart
The King of glory

Who is this King of Glory with strength and majesty
And wisdom beyond measure, the graceous King of kings
the Lord of Earth and Heaven, the Creator of all things
Who is this King of Glory, He's everything to me

The Lord of Earth and Heaven, the Creator of all things
He is the King of glory, He's everything to me

Uche2nna:
@ Jesoul

Now u done it, bro. You have finally signed my Visa out of this place. I have stuff to do and I wont be running after all your sentences trying to put them in context.

I know, it takes a little bit of mental and biblical fortitude to respond.
[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=116335.msg2094390#msg2094390 date=1206552972]@JeSoul

Now I really believe your doing this just to pass time, you're bored at work aren't u?

Why don't u address the speech she was talking about? She spoke of the last Pope and how u picked and chose what to say, but u are her addressing a DIFFERENT speech from a the recent Pope as a rebuttal. Please go and sit down somewhere.[/quote]ROTFL. . .I repeat:
"When a person cannot scripturally counter your argument they resort to
1. Accuse you of judging them
2. Accuse you of misinterpreting or misquoting them
3. Dance around the questions and return answers that have nuthin to do with the discussion
4. They say they'll leave, pretending to be outraged/offended"

 NONE of you has disproven anything I've shown biblically - just gone on to insult me, avoid the questions and return anwers with absolutely no point.

lady your posts are confused and litered, it is hard to understand what your point is as you keep mixing my words with urs. Dost thou know how to use [quote.][/quote.] ?

 [quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=116335.msg2094331#msg2094331 date=1206552108]Why didn't u put in bold the "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"? Like I said u pick and choose which one workds for u.[/quote]what does that have to do with anything? you completely ignored the chunk of the quote which is what I was getting at and you're focusing on an insignificant technicality.

Here's the quote:
 [center]Absolution in the Roman rite takes this form (with the essential words in bold):
God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."[/center]

 The main point here (like I said) is that it is the priest who is doing the forgiving! there's no scriptural basis for that! you come back crying that I did not add "the holy spirit" words to the end of that quote?
you're not focusing on the issue, stop tap-dancing around it and face it head on jare.

Why don't u add the other scriptures that ask u to confess your sins, or the one in which Christ breathed on the apostles and told them to "receive the spirit." "Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are FORGIVEN them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are RETAINED."? Or didn't Christ give us the power and grace to continue his works on earth and didn't he forgive, isn't that part of his works. It does not say whose "message u preach" will be "message u preached" them, and whose "message u don't preach" will be" message u don't preach", so don't give me that translation, it makes NO SENSE.

and it makes even LESS sense that hundreds of other scriptures would directly contradict the notion priests can forgive sins! which means that something is gravely wrong with ur INTERPRETATION of this one particular verse, which is the ONLY verse you caths use is justifying that practice.

CATHOLICS WILL NOT TODAY, TOMORROW, OR EVER, REFUTE THE PASSAGES IN WHICH YOU PROVIDED BECAUSE IT IS A PART OF OUR MESSAGE. GOTTTTT ITTTT!!!!!!!!

what in the world are you talking about?    you saw my post, go thru each point and SHOW BIBLICALLY where whatever I said was wrong! That is what you all cannot do.

"This, then, is how you should pray:
  " 'Our Father in heaven,
  hallowed be your name,
   10your kingdom come,
  your will be done
     on earth as it is in heaven.
   11Give us today our daily bread.
   12Forgive us our debts,
     as we also have forgiven our debtors.
   13And lead us not into temptation,
  but deliver us from the evil one"

How about u also highlight "AS WE HAVE FORGIVEN OUR DEBTORS". Stop picking and choosing.

AGAIN YOU ARE NOT FOCUSING ON THE ISSUE!!! the point of that verse was Jesus teaching us how to pray and confess!  and that priests are not a part of that as taught by Jesus. and yet again you come back crying I did not highlight one part?  

This one Catholic has provided it for u above, but ofcourse with the hatred in your heart u'll be too blind to see, just like the Pharisees (as an example ofcourse)

yes go ahead and insult me, I already knew this was coming becos the truth hurts and when 'christians' cannot justify their beliefs BIBLICALLY  they resort to name-calling and false accusations.

You know what's funny about this "hail Mary" and "our father" thing is that in all my countless times of going to confession, I was never told to do any of these, I was told to pray and I was given passages from the bible to meditate on, and I remember an occassion where I was heavily burdened and the priest referred a book to me, he said it would help. So I WILL MAKE THE ASSUPMTION THAT You ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE PRACTICES OF THE CHURCH, AND ARE SPEAKING BASED ON WHAT You'VE HEARD. I was also told to make right, my wrong, now are u going to tell me that that practice is also wrong.

YET again you are not speaking to the issue!
maybe you have not been told to repeat hail marys, BUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES IT!!!! pls show me the biblical reference for that practice.

But here's something about penance, it is voluntary. No one has a camera to your face to say "aha, I caught u, your not doing penance" it is an atonement for sins, it's jsut u saying God I am sorry and to show how sorry I am, I will help the neighborhood kids for a month or give to the homeless everytime I see one.

voluntary abi not voluntary - that's not the point! the practice is NOT BIBLICAL! how many ways can I say this?

But since we want to stick strictly to what the Bible says (which by the way is what I've been doing), let's visit other areas of the so called heresy.

Christmas- No where in the Bible is christmas celebrated, but u my dear celebrate it year after year after year, your church should be condemned for heresy shouldn't it?

Easter- No where in the Bible is easter celebrater, but u my dear celebrate it year after year after year, your church should be condemned for heresy shouldn't it?

I would gladly answer these questions but that is not what this topic is about. . . .moving on. . .

Your Birthday- IT IS NOT CELEBRATED IN THE BIBLE, shouldn't u be considered heretic.

I really hate to say this but this is just plain ridiculous! is this the best you could come up with?

AND NO DON'T COME ACCUSING ME OF STRAYING FROM THE TOPIC, I AM GIVING You EXAMPLES OF THE PRACTICES THAT ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE, BECAUSE IF You WILL ACCUSE ME OF HERESY You MUST ACCUSE YOURSELF OF IT TOO.

you are straying from the topic! just focus on the issue of catholic confession and whether or not it is biblical! THAT is the issue.
Stop trying to deflect the focus, it is becos you have no answer you're trying to raise other issues.

Do u know what judgment is or do u want to just completely ignore the fact that u have just judged 1 billion people?
I would like to go with the later, but unfortunately u have just sinned against man and God, by playing God. But hey am just screaming judgment right?
Some christian u are.

I did NOT say 1 billiob people are going to hell.
 I said the RCC will cause many to go to hell. PLS DON't TWIST MY WORDS. As long as those people don't follow the bible and what it teaches and believe in God to save them by grace alone but continue to rely on a church, heretic teachings and an unbiblical gospel, they are going to hell, not by my pronouncication but becos the word of God declares so.
 The bible says clearly anyone who preaches another gospel is already cursed. The RCC is bringing an unbiblical gospel - they are by definition anti-christ. Period.

Uche2nna:
@ Jesoul, my brother
This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist.
This is the part of the Pope's sermon on that Wednesday.


the last pope had declared that hell was "only a state of mind" and not a real place.
This is You grabbing a few sentences. Guys are really desperate in their attempt to bring down the Catholic church.
Pope never said that Hell is not real, he said that the word place and fire as we know it is inadequate to describe the REALITIES involved. Please , stop spreading rumours. It does not help u or anybody for that matter.

As for the Catholics worshipping the Pope, my advice on that again is that You should plis stop spreading rumors. It is no longer in fashion. And u wonder why peeps don't bother to counter your argument. With posts like "My mum soup is better than urs" u are not going to get any useful response.

This is hopefully going to be my last post on this thread because I always make it a point to stay out of racial, tribal and religious diatribes.

LOL. . . this is fun! I will now show you how you urself don't even know what ur church teaches:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03262007/news/worldnews/pope_proclaims_hell_exists_and_is_eternal_worldnews_.htm

POPE PROCLAIMS HELL 'EXISTS AND IS ETERNAL'

March 26, 2007 -- ROME - Hell is a place where sinners burn in an eternal fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, the Pope has said.

God's mercy and love are great, but those who reject him should know that hell "exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more," Pope Benedict XVI proclaimed during a weekend visit to a Rome parish.

Vatican officials said that the Pope - who is also the Bishop of Rome - had been speaking in "straightfoward" language "like a parish priest." He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that Hell is a "state of eternal separation from God," to be understood "symbolically rather than physically."

In 1999 Pope John Paul II declared that Heaven was "neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but that fullness of communion with God which is the goal of human life." Hell, by contrast, was "the ultimate consequence of sin itself, Rather than a place, Hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

ROTFL! The new pope believes hell is real, but the last one didn't, so will the next one believe or change it back?

pope JP said "Rather than a place, Hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God"

YOUR catechism states "Hell is a "state of eternal separation from God," to be understood "symbolically rather than physically"

I'd like to see anyone go ahead and try to defend this nonsense.

5 catholics and still counting . . .
none can biblically refute this post yet:

For those who don't know, let us take a walk through the Roman Catholic teaching of confession, since I've been accused I'll like to re-state my case and make it clear from the scriptures why the catholic church is unbiblical and heretic in their teachings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession (all the parts in brown are from this link)

[center]"In Catholic teaching, the sacrament of Penance (commonly called confession but more recently referred to as Reconciliation, or more fully the Sacrament of Reconciliation) is the method used by the Church by which individual men and women may confess sins committed after baptism and have them absolved by a priest. [/center]

Notice this, they are confessing to a priest, and it is the priest that "absolves" or forgives their sins. This is in direct contradiction to numerous scriptures that teaches that God only forgives sins, and that there is only 1 mediator between man and God:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he(God) is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Luke 5:21
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

So we see from the scriptures, we go through Jesus Christ to get to God - who is the one that forgives our sins. There is no hint of a priest or anything or any other method.

[center]"Roman Catholics believe that priests have been given the authority by Jesus and God to exercise the forgiveness of sins here on earth, through his authority. This is to say that the priest during the Sacrament of Penance is a stand-in for Jesus whose authority it is to forgive sins."[/center]

There is NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for this ungodly practice, au contraire, there are plenty of instances where sins are confessed directly to God.

[center]"Typically the penitent begins the confession by saying, "Bless me Father, for I have sinned. It has been [time period] since my last confession." [/center]
Where in scriptures are we given this ritualistic procedure for confessing sins? Nowhere! Infact when the disciples asked Jesus to teach how to pray Jesus said this:
"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.

Jesus already gave us the required way to pray and ask for forgivness. There is no need for any other method as being prescribed and taught by the catholic church. Infact ask any catholic to give you just one example or instance in the bible where anyone confessed their sins to a disciple in order to gain forgiveness - the fact is there is none. Catholics claim Jesus gave the disciples the power to forgive sins YET there is no evidence anywhere in the bible where the disciples practiced or used this authority! how come? were they being disobedient to Jesus? or is it because Jesus never really gave them such a power in the first place?

[center]"Absolution in the Roman rite takes this form (with the essential words in bold):
God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."[/center]
The part in bold is simply put blasphemy! the priest is assuming a position that God only can occupy! God only forgives sins! not man. This is a gross heresy that many blindly follow without ever checking what the bible really teaches.

[center]
"In order for the sacrament to be valid the penitent must do more than simply confess his known mortal sins to a priest. He must a) be truly sorry for each of the mortal sins he committed, b) have a firm intention never to commit them again, and c) perform the penance imposed by the priest". [/center]
THERE IS NO BIBLICAL BASIS for the heretic teaching of penance. Everytime we see Jesus forgive the sins of someone he says "Go and sin no more" He never once tells them to repeat "hail marys" or "our fathers" or any other physical act in order to "complete the forgiveness". Becos there is nuthin we can do to earn forgiveness, it is a gift from God.

I hope the above so far will open the eyes of the readers and I say this to any catholics reading this, please don't come back with insults and abusive reponses or cry you're being judged, biblically refute all the above. The bible says "always have an answer ready to anyone who asks about your faith and why you believe what you believe" and "Study to show yourself approved". If you really look at all these things you'll be convinced like so many why the Roman catholic church is the greatest deception today and she will sadly take many down with her to hell.

viee:
why not say what you know and understand?
suddenly you know who is goin the hell and who is not
u can read the Holy Bible from page one to the last and quote it, it really dsnt mean a thing. . . . . . .
try to be more careful with the words you use
why not?. . . . . . . even Jesus himself was/is

Did I not say :
"When a person cannot scripturally counter your argument they resort to
1[b]. Accuse you of judging them[/b]
2. Accuse you of misinterpreting or misquoting them
3. Dance around the questions and return answers that have nuthin to do with the discussion
4. They say they'll leave, pretending to be outraged/offended"

Viee, you read my whole post, did you not have anything to actually refute based on scripture? why not go ahead and actually prove me wrong with the bible? You gave a response based on nothing and tell me the fact I can quote doesn't matter, then you go ahead and show me what I said that was wrong? maybe its becos you can't?
go on, I dare you

Lady if you'd spent as much time researching as you have accusing me of judging, we would have made more progress in this discussion by now. Anyways I see what you're trying to say in that "you only confess to sins and they forgive through the grace of God", right? now all I need from you is the scriptural reference for this practice and I'll be on my way.

For those who don't know, let us take a walk through the Roman Catholic teaching of confession, since I've been accused I'll like to re-state my case and make it clear from the scriptures why the catholic church is unbiblical and heretic in their teachings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession  (all the parts in brown are from this link)

[center]"In Catholic teaching, the sacrament of Penance (commonly called confession but more recently referred to as Reconciliation, or more fully the Sacrament of Reconciliation) is the method used by the Church by which individual men and women may confess sins committed after baptism and have them absolved by a priest. [/center]

    Notice this, they are confessing to a priest, and it is the priest that "absolves" or forgives their sins. This is in direct contradiction to numerous scriptures that teaches that God only forgives sins, and that there is only 1 mediator between man and God:
   
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he(God) is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Luke 5:21
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

So we see from the scriptures, we go through Jesus Christ to get to God - who is the one that forgives our sins. There is no hint of a priest or anything or any other method.

[center]"Roman Catholics believe that priests have been given the authority by Jesus and God to exercise the forgiveness of sins here on earth, through his authority. This is to say that the priest during the Sacrament of Penance is a stand-in for Jesus whose authority it is to forgive sins."[/center]

  There is NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for this ungodly practice, au contraire, there are plenty of instances where sins are confessed directly to God.

  [center]"Typically the penitent begins the confession by saying, "Bless me Father, for I have sinned. It has been [time period] since my last confession." [/center]
  Where in scriptures are we given this ritualistic procedure for confessing sins? Nowhere! Infact when the disciples asked Jesus to teach how to pray Jesus said this:
  "This, then, is how you should pray:
   " 'Our Father in heaven,
   hallowed be your name,
    10your kingdom come,
   your will be done
      on earth as it is in heaven.
    11Give us today our daily bread.
    12Forgive us our debts,
      as we also have forgiven our debtors.
    13And lead us not into temptation,
   but deliver us from the evil one.

Jesus already gave us the required way to pray and ask for forgivness. There is no need for any other method as being prescribed and taught by the catholic church. Infact ask any catholic to give you just one example or instance in the bible where anyone confessed their sins to a disciple in order to gain forgiveness - the fact is there is none. Catholics claim Jesus gave the disciples the power to forgive sins YET there is no evidence anywhere in the bible where the disciples practiced or used this authority! how come? were they being disobedient to Jesus? or is it because Jesus never really gave them such a power in the first place?

  [center]"Absolution in the Roman rite takes this form (with the essential words in bold):
God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."[/center]
  The part in bold is simply put blasphemy! the priest is assuming a position that God only can occupy! God only forgives sins! not man. This is a gross heresy that many blindly follow without ever checking what the bible really teaches.

[center]
"In order for the sacrament to be valid the penitent must do more than simply confess his known mortal sins to a priest. He must a) be truly sorry for each of the mortal sins he committed, b) have a firm intention never to commit them again, and c) perform the penance imposed by the priest". [/center]
  THERE IS NO BIBLICAL BASIS for the heretic teaching of penance. Everytime we see Jesus forgive the sins of someone he says "Go and sin no more" He never once tells them to repeat "hail marys" or "our fathers" or any other physical act in order to "complete the forgiveness". Becos there is nuthin we can do to earn forgiveness, it is a gift from God.

  I hope the above so far will open the eyes of the readers and I say this to any catholics reading this, please don't come back with insults and abusive reponses or cry you're being judged, biblically refute all the above. The bible says "always have an answer ready to anyone who asks about your faith and why you believe what you believe" and "Study to show yourself approved". If you really look at all these things you'll be convinced like so many why the Roman catholic church is the greatest deception today and she will sadly take many down with her to hell.

This is soooooooooooooooooooo true!!! I've even been guilty myself.

AKO shhhhh don't expose urself like that now

4Him,
I must confess I'm not the best at studying prophecy & ur short expose on Rev 17 is something I haven't spent time on studying yet . . . thanks for that piece of info. I am going to do some more studying.

[quote author=D-reloaded link=topic=116335.msg2091535#msg2091535 date=120647977]#3 is the fact that a good majority worship the Pope and are in denial of it.[/quote]you know that is the one thing that gets under my skin sooooo much! The way they worship and adore and venerate this mere man who is a sinner just like everyone else. But I guess we should not be suprised, the bible says the enemy has blinded the eyes of many.

Imagine last yr the pope came out and said hell exists, becos the last pope had declared that hell was "only a state of mind" and not a real place. And all catholics go ahead and believe his word more than that of God's word! who knows maybe the next pope will change his mind about hell too. *hisses* what rubbish.

[quote author=D-reloaded link=topic=116335.msg2091298#msg2091298 date=1206476103]Confession is on #2 of the list of things I loathe in regards to the Catholic Church.[/quote]whats #1?

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=116335.msg2090863#msg2090863 date=1206468150]@JeSoul

lol@ u misquoting me, by the way the a great one thing is a joke, and lol @ u judging them too. It's a shame. But hey much love to u because u are God's own. I cannot sin against u and God by judging u. lol@ the fact that exactly what I said is what u said in different words. LOL@ You for thinking that the Catholic church doesn't teach that God forgives and that we ignore the other verses, (by the way we don't stand by that verse alone, there are others)

I see u've made it up in your mind that u don't even want to reason my points, that's ok and fine with me. I live life to please God and by his grace I will continue to do so.

Thank u for your judgement, I accept humbly.[/quote]When a person cannot scripturally counter your argument they resort to
1. Accuse you of judging them
2. Accuse you of misinterpreting or misquoting them
3. Dance around the questions and return answers that have nuthin to do with the discussion
3. They say they'll leave, pretending to be outraged/offended

Lady,
I have offered you scriptures upon scriptures and you cannot refute even one of them. I asked one simple question - you could not answer. The truth of the fallacies of the CC are staring you in the face but you refuse to accept it. Na your own cup of tea be dat. But I pray God will let those scales fall off your eyes.

uchkochi:
you don't have to be a prophet to know that majority of what they do is contrary to scriptures.

I hope you have your bullet proof vest ready, they are about to attack and defend baba pope to the end!

Sidebar: I agree with ur post up until you hinted one must speak in tongues as evidence of true salvation . . . the bible is clear not everyone can speak in tongues.

Carry on . . .

Amen, Amin, Ise . . .

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=116335.msg2088614#msg2088614 date=1206409915]ok people I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is contradictory, so why don't we all just renounce christianity and call it a day. Won't that be ideal?[/quote]the bible is NOT contradictory! it is the teachings of the catholic church that are contradictory when compared with parts of the bible. The problem is with YOU.

One verse says that only God can forgive, the other one says u should forgive so that God can forgive, so if only God can forgive why am I being asked to forgive?

*shaking me head*
once again there's sins/wrongs we commit against other people and those against God - how hard is this to understand. If someone cheat you, they've sinned against you and against God. They require forgiveness from you and from God. Simple as ABC. Stop drawing conclusions from faulty reasoning.

I think the Bible shouldn't have been translated because it's caused too many confusion.

There is no confusion or error or contradiction in the bible. All your problems are catholic-made. The bible is PERFECT and does not contradict each other. "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God," (2 Pet. 1:21).
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work," (2 Tim. 3:16-17)

The great ones had the right idea when they said that the Qu'ran shouldn't be translated and all should learn the language. I promise it wouldn't have caused this many confusion.

wow the day a christian catholic uses mooslims/qoran as an example and a standard to follow, you must all recognize something is gravely wrong.
The fact you're hinting the bible should never have been translated from the originial tongue shows you don't understand that the purpose of spreading the gospel requires that it be translated and taken to every tribe and nation.

a whole lotta words, but not much sense is being made.

pls lady, just answer this simple question without going off on ridiculous tangents:

continue to quote only Jn 20 and ignore all other scriptures that contradict your conclusion, you're being very shortsighted, WHY DOES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IGNORE ALL THE OTHER SCRIPTURE VERSES THAT TEACH GOD ONLY FORGIVES SINS? Hypocrits are notorious for picking and choosing which parts of the bible they want to believe in and that is what the catholic church is doing.

Joshua 24:19
Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.

2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Psalm 25:11
For the sake of your name, O LORD, forgive my iniquity, though it is great.

Psalm 79:9
Help us, O God our Savior, for the glory of your name; deliver us and forgive our sins for your name's sake.

Ps 103:2 Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits- who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases,

Ps 130:3 If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness; therefore you are feared.

Daniel 9:19
O Lord, listen! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, hear and act! For your sake, O my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name."

Hosea 14:2
Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips.

Micah 7:18 (Whole Chapter)
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy

Mark 2:7
"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins.]

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
and it goes on and on.
When Jesus taught the disciples and us to pray, he said

"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.'
Jesus himself never hinted or mentioned anything about going to a priest for forgiveness, there is no mention or hint of that heretic teaching of penance. Not one.

Please show me just 1, only 1 instance in the bible where priests or the disciples forgave the sins of anybody. Give me just one example where they practiced this so-called authority to forgive sins? show me another where penance was taught and practiced?

This was one of my fav songs growing up in Lagos , I can sing the yoruba version but ehm I can't write it proper. . . anyone remember and can write in yoruba?


"I have seen, seen, the downfall of satan
glory be to God/ glory be to Jesus
I have seen, seen, the downfall of satan
glory be to God, amen.

when I look at my right
I see satan has fallen
when I look at my left
I see satan has fallen
when I look at my front
I see satan has fallen
when I look at my back
I see satan has fallen

I have seen, seen, the downfall of satan
glory be to God, glory be to Jesus
I have seen, seen, the downfall of satan
glory be to God, amen.

imhotep abeg stop doing the electric slide.
Gamine answered you PERFECTLY and you ignored what she said. The scripture in James like Gamine rightly pointed out does not say anything like it is the elders that will forgive the sins, or that the person should confess to the elders. . . pls read it slowly.
Sista Gamine abeg tell am well well!

were you seriously trying to use those verses to say humans can forgive sins?
wow! what gross misuse and abuse of scripture! but I am not suprised, that is what the catholic church does on a regular basis.
First off my sister, make the distinction. There's sins we commit against other men, and then there's sins we commit against God. We can forgive each other when we wrong each other BUT we cannot forgive the sins committed against God!

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

It's funny all the verses you quoted actually support the fact that it is God only that forgives sins:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Ps 103:2 Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits, who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Ok sir, on your number 4 above u said it yourself, that he gave them the power to forgive.

NO! that is not what I said. I said he gave them the ministry of reconciliation, those are 2 very different things.

what about the part of whose sins u retain is retained them? Wouldn't that mean that the disciples could choose who could receive the message? Why would Christ say who u choose to not receive the message won't receive the message? Isn't the message supposed to be taken far and wide? your insinuating that the message is discriminatory.

lol. . . I'm not sure how in the world you attained such a false notion. Pls, re-read my post.

at your number 3, your just grasping for air there mister, lol, but u are right that it doesn't say that Roman Catholics are endowed with the authority to forgive sins. But I pray thee, which of the disciples are alive today. If it is particularly only to the disciples wouldn't that mean that your pastors are not meant to carry on the gospel, because it wasn't told to them. I shouldn't carry on the gospel either because it wasn't told to me directly and neither should u. So how about we sit and wait for the disciples. By the way I thought we are disciples of Christ.

I also notice that u pick and choose. You seem to forget the part about if u forgive men when they sin against u. Wouldn't that mean that we have the power to forgive? Are u telling me now that I shouldn't forgive? Because it clearly tells me that I should.

WOW!!! you're dancing around ur own feet. You're trying to read words and sayings into my words that are not there. Anyways anyone who's reading can see and judge for themselves.
pls just answer the simple question: Why does the catholic church and you ignore all the verses that teach God alone forgives sins? you're the one picking and choosing what you want! why do you ignore where (and you even quoted them above) we're told to confess only to God? why?
and you still claim that church stands on the authority of the bible? what nonsense!

lady,
and I hope you've taken the time to go thru the other thread where this was discussed in-depth and how the catholic church is falsely and erroneously using that one verse to justify priests forgiving sins. How can you continue to quote 1 verse, when there are 50 million other verses that contradict your conclusion?
The bible clearly teaches that it is God only that forgives sins in many other verses, how can you all just simply ignore those verses?

A copy of the catechism? I will not be caught dead with that evil book I have done my extensive research and have found it to be evil and unbiblical and not of God. Whether or not you accept or believe . . . he that hath an ear, let him hear.

Lady,
    first let me say I love your spirit and the way you've approached the discussion. 

Now I have done my research on the catholic church, and have found things that have dumbfounded me, things that are outright against the holy bible, practices that are unscriptural and tend to glorify man vs God. Sysuser is very passionate about God and the bible, that's why he might come off as "attacking" the catholic church BUT if you take the time to research the things he's been saying, you'll find for yourself they are true. I know you already have your beliefs about what the catholic church is but I challenge you my sister to go back and compare scripturally what the catholic church teaches vs what the bible teaches, and you will be suprised.

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=119613.msg2083377#msg2083377 date=1206249049]I also want to address the question about confessing to priests and who gave them the power to forgive. there was a thread about it and i couldn't find it. but people asked for the bible verse in which it says that we should confess and i gave it, but they also wanted one that gave men the power to forgive and here it is:

John 20: 19-23
19. On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them "peace be with u"
20. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21. Jesus said to them again "peace be with u. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
22. And when he had said this, he breathed unto them and said to them, "Receive the holy spirit"
23. "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained"[/quote]my sister, this verse has been debated inside out  here's just one link of many https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-116335.0.html   Cassiel was/is a catholic herself and stated how she at a point realized that what the church teaches is unbiblical.

God is the one who forgives our sins, without his grace, we are unable to forgive. It is through God that I forgive my biological father for abandoning me and my mother, it is through God that I forgive my boyfriend for cheating on me, it is through God that I forgive my friend for stealing from me. I forgive so that my sins too can be forgiven.

Like I said before, I admire your spirit and the way you approached this topic, but my dear how can you say priests forgive sins and also say God only forgives sins?