₦airaland Forum

The spambot got you W. I've untagged the thread.

Ihedinobi: No I mean exactly what I said. Your earlier statement implies that realism is a persuasion separate from faith. That is untrue. It is because we're Christians that we are realists. Realism isn't something we can carry on in addition to our faith.

Unless my comphrehension is suddenly failing me... aren't these two statements contradictory?

-It is because we're Christians that we are realists
-Realism isn't something we can carry on in addition to our faith


In either case, I didn't imply having a realistic approach is incompatible with faith - infact I was trying to say that was exactly my stance.

You misunderstand me, sis. I asked whether God is a factor that can be accounted for in an appraisal of the Nigerian situation or not. That is, is He a factor worthy of consideration when evaluating Nigeria? Not, is He the cause, in any way, of Nigeria's woes?

You're asking a christian if "God is a factor worth considering" (in whatever situation)?

I am trying to tell you that it's not emotional optimism or unfounded hope. I think that anyone who writes off Nigeria is ill-educated on her situation.

You would be hard-pressed to prove this point my dear. Is there a chance anything can happen? of course. The probability of that is what would render your hope/optimism realistic or not - and if you're truly a realist you must admit nigeria's situation is dire.

Forgive me, but I think you miss the point again. I asked if the places you spoke of have complexities like Nigeria's? I saw a cartoon once depicting every ethnic interest in Nigeria as claiming marginalization. The cartoon asked, "who is marginalizing who?"

You seem to be echoing my points without realizing it.

I maintained naija's case is not one of an elite class pushing around the lower class - but rather a vicious cycle where all are perpetuating evil towards each other.

I don't disagree nigeria has unique complexities - heck which country on earth doesn't have its own unique challenges? Perhaps nigerian's seperate themselves on tribe - someone mentioned earlier if human being could seperate themselves by hair color they would.

My point was Nigeria has baggage beyond mere poverty (which poverty is actually imaginary).

Again, I never said otherwise, I merely mentioned poverty as one of the problems.

I find this story reminiscent of the accounts and testimonies of westerners who visit spots in Africa they were hitherto unfamiliar with and which they had pretty low expectations of. Their testimonies tended toward "such happy people . . .", "such hardworking people . . .", "such (insert necessary ooh's and aah's here) . . ."

So because it echoes of something a westerner might say it should be dismissed?

Suffice to say, Ghana has to be beating the same troubles Nigeria is plagued with before I take significant notice of them. Also, foreigners have been to some parts of Naija about which they said pretty much the same things.

Now you miss the point. Every country from 1st world to 3rd world will have good & bad areas - I'm trying to point you in the direction of the mentality of the people and how even though ghanians are our next door neighbors, they differ in thinking from us - to their credit.

So does wealth.

not in dispute.

Forgive my saying so, sis, but you're terribly out of touch with Nigerian realities.

Along with all the other posters on this thread who've echoed my sentiments?

No one is saying Nigerians aren't "poor" or don't have it difficult. I asked you to rank it on a scale of 1-10 compared to other poor countries out there so we can put things in perspective.

Wanting to have the same well-off life mr Emeka has does NOT count as suffering. Chris eloquently said that nigerians are not satisfied to simply have their daily bread and he is right.

The Nigerian is a ravenously hungry man who's sitting and watching a feast he's been told is his disappearing into the bellies of the people who say it's his and who assure him they mean to feed him with it. The (un)funny thing is these same people were his comrades right the minute before agitating with him for control of the feast so that they don't starve to death. He's seen it so many times that he's just gone cynical. He no longer believes or trusts anyone to care about him. So he takes care of himself.

Obi steals all he can because he feels entitled to it and if he doesn't try to get it somehow, he might end up out in the cold with no warm clothes, not merely cos he's greedy. That's Nigerian reality.

I don't necessarily disagree with this part...I'm just trying to hit home the fact that this does not qualify as 'suffering' - it is coveting what someone else has though you have enough to live on.

LB,
I hope you still don't struggle with suicidal thoughts, and if you do, I hope you consistently overcome them. Its always sad whenever a person feels hopeless enough to want to take their own life.

Ihedinobi: This is the point at which we truly differ. I do not believe that it is possible to be a Christian and not be a realist or that it is possible to be a realist without the Faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Did you mean to say the opposite^? that you do not believe you can be a christian AND a realist at the same time?

Being realistic means taking full account of all the factors at play in the situation under study. Is God a factor or is He not? Should He be accounted for in Nigeria's situation or not? Also, is there sense in my point that as long as there is one untried solution and a will to pursue it there's hope or is there not? I don't mean to sound confrontational o, sorry if I do.

Not confrontational at all, we're having a spirited discussion .

Is God "accountable" for Nigeria's situation? He is - to the extent He is accountable for the choices & decisions you make - and last I checked there are no zombies with God pulling the strings. I believe He is able to work within our personal and individual choices toward His greater purpose - His Will will ultimately prevail. So no. God is not 'responsible' for what naija has become, we are.

I admire your optimism really, cos you're one of very few who feel that way.

Do these places of which you speak have a history of deprivation and deliberate impoverishment of whole people-groups by other people-groups? Or, at least, such perceptions or mentalities?

Ah, you would first have to seperate issues.

On a historical scale of 1-10 of 'deprivation' & 'impoverishment' where do you think nigerians fall? I don't think we're close to even tipping the balance self. Furthermore, we tend to speak often as though the evil that happens in naija is inflicted by a ruling class upon the poorer - I say a big fat wrong! all classes are equally jawing after the other. All levels are corrupt from the gateman who colludes with armed robbers to rob his oga to the lowly customs agent who wants you to 'settle' him before releasing your goods to the politician looting millions - everyone is guilty.

Let us use ghana again for comparison. I spent some good time there and visited some slums, I entered living rooms that were the size of my bathroom at home, I visited shacks built on water - the whole time we were never scared for our lives or concerned about crime cos they were peaceful places in spite of their lack. Infact I was so humbled by the grace of these people, cooking the fresh fish they caught that day for strangers and hugging you with big smiles on their faces....I'm sure they wish for better living conditions - the difference is they don't go about stealing from, killing & violating their fellow citizens out of "frustration".

nah, I'm certain of it - Poverty merely amplifies what you already are inside.

Chris was quite wrong, at least when you take the Nigeria story wholesale. I know that the average Nigerian is self-centered and grabbing, but it is not a situation in isolation. Every people- and interest-group in Nigeria claims some history of deprivation. We are an insecure people. We are self-centered because we are afraid of getting trampled in the rush for survival. If I did business with a Nigerian, I'd factor in a survivalist mentality.

I believe the problem to be very solvable. If serious business factors Nigeria's psychology in, the economic landscape would begin to significantly transform. And with that, so would so much more.

And it is an excuse! a weak one that seeks to deflect personal accountability and instead blame others or a system for their own shortcomings. Self-preservation does not have to come at the expense of 'trampling' on your neighbor in the rush to 'survive' - I put survive in quote because I don't think its just 'survivalist mentality' - its I want to be rich mentality - simply put. I don't think the average nigerian would be content to have just his daily bread - I honestly don't.

Chrisbenogor: Chai, Nna see enjoyment kwa, I hope say you reach nkwobi and isiewu joints oh, if not better book another flight kia kia. Even me d̶̲̥̅̊ε̲̣γ̲̣ hope say the paper "is stacking" hehehehe.
Hmmmmmm Ihedinobi, well make I try.

Lol...next time you show me where all the good spots are . And why won't the paper stack? I know you're a hard worker, whatever you put your hands to do will be blessed.

First off let me say I respect your religious beliefs and your faith. What I am going to try and do however is stick to the facts as they are because I am not one for wishful thinking.
After my run in with discovering myself religion wise and my deciding to drop it in 2008, my subsequent anger at religious folks for lying and deceiving people, I have reached a stage in my epiphany which is simple.
"There are good people and there are bad people"

Word! if truer words were ever spoken...

It doesn't matter what they believe, what they claim they practice, the good ones are good. The bad ones however would find ways to be bad, this is all so evident in Nigeria especially in the business of selling hope which is evident in the proliferation of those that are "called" today.
I however would like to keep this discussion away from all that and focus on that which we can see daily.
I had the very unintersting experience of doing business in Nigeria recently. Nine times out of tenwhen you have to buy something in Nigeria do you ever ask if "its the original".
I tried to buy a used car recently in Nigeria and I tell you its one thing that would show you how much we have no moral dignity in this country and what people will do for a quick buck. While in the US you could walk into a car dealership and get the exact history of a car (at least to the best of my knowledge and the ones I checked), if it was damaged anywhere or salvaged you would know. But again the hassles of importing and clearance made me decide to get it in lagos.
When I arrived lagos I was taken to meet a guy who would guide me through my search and I don't want to go into the sorry details but suffice to say after 5 days of searching I gave up.
Doing business in Nigeria and making it legitimately without cutting corners has got to be a sleight of hand that houdini would have loved to learn. 99 percent of businesses running in Nigeria are just......
I once had this friend who does supplies, and he told me the story of how this very big Supermarket in port harcourt went to Aba to get things, stocked them up like they were "original" and slapped exhorbitant prices on them, unsuspecting Nigerians in the bid to avoid these Aba substandard products still go there and get ripped off.
So I don't know where your optimism is coming from, petrol stations on January 1st this year all turned their pumps to 140 naira per litre even when they knew fully well the products the bought they got at 97 naira per litre. What does that say about us as a people?
I am sorry but each time I hear the whole I have faith and I serve a living God I cannot help but scoff because I know these same people would go back to their rip off businesses come monday.
Simple question is this how many small businesses in Nigeria pay tax?
Goods in most countries in the world come from china, but our Nigerian business men go there and make sure they get sub standard goods for a massive profit. I am sorry but I refuse to share your optimism about business being the hope for Nigeria.


As for GEJ, that's another epistle on its own.

I really cannot fault anything you've said at all, infact it merely reinforces what I already hold to be the case. I hope naija changes but all the indications are drastically to the contrary and that is where as I said to Ihedinobi I'm a realist. Thanks for sharing this bit...and I hope you've gotten a good car from elsewhere

plaetton: We can all hope and keep hoping till thy kingdom come. Thy kingdom better come fast, because, the future doesn't look pretty.
The nations that are prosperous, all the nations that are just emerging from entrenched poverty like Brazil, India, etc, did not achieve these feats by merely hoping. There is nothing miraculous about attaining national prosperity.
Our pioneer elites were too simple minded, myopic and extremely selfish to have laid the foundations for a prosperous future.
For example, we conduct a hundred times the volume of trade with nations 10,000 kilometres away than we do with our regional West African brothers.There are no rail links between Nigerai and our neigbors in the West, East or North, just like the British and French colonialist wanted and left it.

This is sooooooooo on point. And it is even reflected in some africans who go abroad to set up businesses...I can't tell you how many times I get frustrated trying to patronize african businesses only to be met with that "african mentality" that does not think beyond wetin I go chop today and try to expand to reach new heights.

Our educational system was tailored to produce clerks for the colonial administration, and not thinkers. 52 yrs later,We have not changed the basic platforms of that educational system. Our police force was modelled and the force trained to pacify native agitations, they were trained and housed in barracks, isolated from the greater community, and encouraged to see the greater community as the enemies. That system remains firmly in place 52yrs after the departure of the colonialist. Just go to police college at Ikeja and see how our policemen are trained.

You can pretty much take this quote and apply it to many other aspects...its seems as a whole, africans do things one certain way - and never deviate from it. Never think on how to improve, streamline it. Never innovate, simply consume.

I remember when I first returned to Nigeria In 1994, I was alarmed that all the factories and warehouses in my old neighborhhods in Ikeja and Oregun areas of Lagos had been taken over by Churches, and, ironically, everyone was shouting halleluya.
I remember shaking my head in horror, and telling my cousin that this country was in deep deep trouble.

Things have gotten a lot worse since then, and ofcourse, the Shouts of Halleluya have also gotten much more frenzied and louder.

I'm a christian but the over-saturation of 'churches' in naija is a big problem. They are not really churches, they are merely another outlet of the pent-up frustration. Rather than face reality and put hand to plow we prefer to sing & pray all day hoping for a windfall.

Na wa oh...anything that inspires hope at all in/for naija?

Ihedinobi: I'm sorry that you think it's mere optimism. I am a Christian, JeSoul, and my faith rules all that I do and say. There is no dichotomy for me between Christ and the circumstances of life. As long as there is one untried solution to Nigeria's problem and a will to pursue it, there is hope. It's not really mere emotional optimism. Unless of course you mean, hope, by which I mean godly hope that maketh not ashamed.

I understand. As a christian myself my faith does also color practically everything I do...the only difference is I tend to be more a realist.

I am not saying that we should not say "Nigeria, Ghana is doing great, you should be too". I am saying that we should not say, "Nigeria, you're a waste of time. Just look at Ghana: wasn't she so and so and now she is . . . and you are still . . ." One is an excuse, the other is pep talk. I'm sure you can tell which is which. The fact is that Nigeria is not what or where she can and should be, but there's no sense in overflogging that.

Okay that's a fair point.

We already talked about peculiarities. That's what I mean. Say, the average Nigerian is an extremely self-centered douche bag, is that the whole story? No. There is a why. It could be a survival mechanism. If it is, then, anyone who wants to work on Nigeria would be better off factoring in the reason of this self-centeredness. Such a person would have to indicate very overtly that he can be trusted with the average Obi's problem of survival. If he does not, whatever he attempts to do with Nigeria will fail on that point. Obi will steal every resource entrusted to him the first instant he touches it. But if Obi's fear is evidently accounted for, Obi will be more likely to be helpful.

This argument would work...except for there are societies that exist where people have next to nothin but do not resort to violence & misbehavior as a "coping (or survival) mechanism". Some of the biggest smiles & happiest people I've come across were in some of the poorest places on earth.

Chris laid it out earlier - its greed & lust of the eyes that is the average naija man's problem. He is not satisfied to have just his daily bread, he must have daily jeep, daily mansion and daily fat bank account.

Phew... my apologies to Ihedinobi, Chris & others...I was suddenly blizted with 'busy-ness'.

and upon reading Deepsight's tale I'm just speechless. I see its also on the front page where it belongs for others to read and be amazed.

@Deepsight,
I'm truly speechless and not sure what to even say, but I'm glad that you made it, like really really glad. I'm not even sure how your state of mind is after such an experience but I charge you to the graceful hand of God, may it be more than well with your soul. Also the part where you said it'd been a tough year and death may not be so bad....please be encouraged through whatever has happened, it shall be well with your soul. wow...I'm still stunned by this story...

OlowoTee: Pls kindly join hands/faith to say some prayers for a friend (Taiye) whose EDD is anytime soon. It seems she's pretty scared and would want some prayers...for safe delivery. She sends in her request, today. We believe that with God, all things are possible. Thank you.

By the grace of God almighty, Taiye it shall be well with you and you shall have a smooth & successful delivery in Jesus name. That child shall have the hand of God upon it and may she/he bring you and your household joy unspeakable, Amen.

First and final warning to all the posters on this thread, any more insults or abuses and you will be banned.

Logicboy03: USA has the best healthcare in the world? lol.....you guys only win on innovation. Stop behaving like the "American exceptionalism" group and accept that the usa doesnt have the best healthcare in the world


http://www.commonwealthfund.org/News/News-Releases/2010/Jun/US-Ranks-Last-Among-Seven-Countries.aspx

lol. You may want to re-read my post you quoted and then adjust your reply accordingly

Logicboy03: What? This is the arrogance of America, they fail to realise that some European countries have better health statistics than them eg Germany which remains a strong economy as well.

This would be a good point but you'd first have to point out where I said the US has the best healthcare system in the world.

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Pastor AIO: Aaaha! Sis Jes! How many social programs are sustainable? How many societies are sustainable? How many civilizations last forever? Even the financial system of the world is not sustainable. Everything will fail one day.

lol. I honestly have no counter to ^that!

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Logicboy03: Hi,


I think this is front page material
https://www.nairaland.com/1085214/how-christians-handle-miracles-magic


Please, you can do it

I've recommended it. Cheers.

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clemogusGC: hehe let this go firstpage pls lwkmd

http://www.ogusbaba.com/2012/10/barka-de-sallah-funny-pics.html

That's not NL now .

Ihedinobi (and plaetton, wiegraf, Dare) I'm short on time right now but I shall be back to reply ur post. Thks!

Chrisbenogor: @Jesoul
My dear, work has been crazy. I read a lot and post from time to time but not as frequently as I used to. Some topics move me enough to reply though. I am totally confused about this Nigeria issue. Everywhere I turn it seems to get worse.
As for GEJ, I don't even want to start. Make I d̶̲̥̅̊ε̲̣γ̲̣ read d̶̲̥̅̊ε̲̣γ̲̣ go. Hope you are good, nice to hear you showed up in naija.

My dear I'm good oh. I thank my God . I did have a blast in naija. If not for anything else, the fried snails & catfish stew alone was worth it . I'm glad you're doing well and staying engaged, and hope that paper is stacking .

I'd like to hear your take/challenge to Ihedinobi on GEJ. All the contentious arguements in the politics section sometimes cloud the issue. It's nice to hear what common sense people think.

Lol@topic,
the only thing that is NOT okay to eat on that plate is the egg. The darn thing is not cooked enough

Seriously, those verses you quoted should be taken in context of living in a certain society and certain foods/practices going hand in hand - the problem is not necessarily the food - but rather what the consumption of the food in that context and in that setting (offered to idols) would imply - that you approved of and served the idol. If you took those verses literally then what would you do with this one?

1 Timothy 4 >>
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods , which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

wiegraf: A truly terrible thread. Religious people with common sense is bad for business

Lol...see this boy.

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and my dear Chris shows up

Chrisbenogor: Jesoul,
There is a reason I follow just you on this forum and your post right there......(Errrr you get twin sister biko )

lol...you've always been so generous with me, I so appreciate you dude (wish you'd come back to posting here often too).

I totally agree with you, no one needs donkey years in this country to understand Nigeria and Nigerian politics. In the simplest and crudest forms you have explained what Nigeria is.
What you see as governance is a reflection of who the people are as individuals. The Government did not spring from Atlantis, they were once part and parcel of the common man. Our values as Nigerians are skewed and I say it here today the average Nigerian is the reason why Nigeria is as terrible as it is today.
The situation of things might make it seem to an outsider that there is an elite group of bad people oppressing the good people of Nigeria but that's not true at all. Well there is a group of bad people who rode on the greed, dishonesty, tribalism of their peers to achieve an elite status. They then proceed to make sure that they deprive the rest bad people of the chance to achieve the elite status. Lemme break it down to some events,
VIOLENCE:
Someone here mentioned the ALUU 4, that event showed just how far we have been frustrated as a people, to the extent that we now behave as savages. Some weeks prior to that event someone made a thread about how violent our society was, lynching and burning theives has not been something that shocked an average Nigerian. So watching comments pouring in about how wicked the killers were would have given the false assumption that oh Nigerians were finally getting in touch with their humanity. But was that really true? Well asides from the fact that 40 people were killed in their own rooms a couple of days earlier and it did not gather as much media frenzy, there was an assumption that the boys were "innocent", would a regular theif have gotten a humane treatment from those crying foul? The answer was evident when students took their turn and destroyed and burnt houses, they made pages of comments cheering saying they had it coming. Sad but that is the state of things today.

Very very well pointed out. And to be honest some of the brutal responses to the incident has inspired shivers down my spine. It would've not nearly been as 'savage' & 'babaric' if the men were established as thieves.

HONESTY AND DIGNITY
These words are missing in the Nigerian dictionary, it sad but Nigerians have done nothing to dispel that myth. I will take your mind back to two examples of this, during the elections I worked quite closely with the youth corp members who were in charge of polling stations mostly in the south and I don't want to go into the gory details but if you are looking for a revolution or a change coming from the youth? Forget it, so many Nigerian girls would readily betray their families for a blackberry torch ( maybe na Ipad now).
In ahaoda of rivers state a tanker fell, people rushed to scoop petrol it caught fire and killed more than 200 people, a week or so later a tanker was set ablaze at eneka near ph, just say 45 mins from AHaoda and people still jumped out to scoop the product. When one is ready to risk his life like that even after the event of the past week was fresh in their minds shows that their moral fabric is in tatters.

na wa oh. Its sad. Why are we raising kids that get more & more corrupt by the generation? kai! a long hard look in the mirror nigeria, a long hard look. Is honesty encouraged? is there motivation to do the right thing? is dignity recognized? on the national level? why would any child want to be honest when it does not pay?

SUCCESS
To "hammer" is the meaning of success to the average Nigerian. Not living a good comfortable life, normal is not the goal, mega is the only option. This is one of the reasons why David oyedepo has made it, all Nigerians want to be prosperous even if it is at the detriment of their fellow Nigerians. The guy walking envies the man on the okada who in turn envies the man in the toyota camry that nearly splashed water on him, the man in the camry is thinking if only I could be in that range rover just in front of me while the man in the range rover wants to be like the guy with 20 cars in his convoy.
We waste the little we have just to be among the psychological caste system that we have built for ourselves. The bride in a traditional average wedding ceremony wants to change 4 times to different attires shoes and bags, the couple want to hire a mighty hall print expensive cards, have at least two catering firms to take care of the food, invite wizkid to sing Me I dey dance pakurumo
\=))_
((
<,'\/‎​ pakurumo pakurumo ojo dada!.
So how on earth would any sane Nigerian expect those that control the commonwealth of the country to be prudent and not spend one billion to chop isiewu in 2013?

Lol. Infact ehn, you have said it all. The funny (or not so funny) thing is these undesirable characteristics of greed, lust, envy & covetousness are certainly not unique to only nigerias - its a problem to all men. But the prevalence of this mindset in naija is what is scary. I wonder why? or maybe I really don't.

Life as a Nigerian has got to be enough for someone to do a Phd thesis on, I really don't know how to say I have hope, because I don't know what I am hoping for. Things have fallen apart, a long time ago.

lol, you already have.

Ihedinobi: @JeSoul, I quite agree with you. Like you, I hardly ever feel qualified to speak to Nigeria's political situation. My own reason actually is that I don't follow the news well. I'm beginning to though. However I do live here and I feel everything even if I don't hear it.

@all

Anyhow I also agree that there is hope. Until the last Nigerian has given up on this country, there will be. I don't think I'm the last but I am sure I haven't given up.

You try oh lol...optimism is good.

Even though that is the case, I freely admit that the situation is dire. I believe that the best approach to dealing with it is to stop comparing Nigeria to other countries, at least not with a view to having her measure up to them. If there must be a comparison, it should be with a view to taking a leaf out of the book of their development. In that latter case, it would be similarities rather than differences that are sought.

Interesting point. I get what you mean by not directly 'comparing' because afterall we are a different people with different values and different cultures. At the same time, I do think it is fair to see how Naija "measures up" against similar countries. I spent time in Ghana as well and I can tell you the difference is like night & day - in terms of just mentality alone. At this point nigeria ought to be leading the charge of african countries.

Next and an extension of the above, Nigeria's peculiarities should be taken right account of. These peculiarities are the guiding factors for deciding what developmental paths to pursue. For instance, the average Obi on Nigeria's streets is extremely self-centered (not very representative of Nigeria though, this is more the urban Nigerian than anybody else). Why? That is the right question to ask. Because its answer leads up to how one can deal with him productively.

Can you please expand on this part? not sure I fully understand, thanks.

So, I hold that Nigeria's redemption lies in a commitment by the Nigerian to using one's intellect in adherence to the highest moral principles to deal with everyday problems. I'm working on it myself. I hope that when my kids are adults, this Nigeria that I know will be a very distant and hazy memory for them.

Amen oh! amen.

@JeSoul

My thoughts on the government: I know that there's a lot that I don't know, but I know that what Jonathan attempted to do was to limit tenures to one term of six years (I think, for the president and governors, don't remember about the house of assembly). He held that the fight for a second term prevented political office holders from doing their jobs and diverted public funds substantially. Obviously, the powers that be murdered that baby. GEJ might have made a bunch of mistakes and pursued paths that I have not always agreed with, but I think the man is a breath of fresh air to Nigerian politics. In my opinion, he's brought more honesty and comradeship to governance than any president before him. Even his moves have served to involve Nigerians more powerfully in their home politics. We used to be an extremely fatalistic people who just didn't give that much of a damn about anything the government did. But GEJ appears to have the effect of rousing Nigerians and making them respond. I'm completely at home with that.

Thanks for the correction on this part. I'll attempt to point out some shortcomings in this...

Consider the tumultuous circumstances under which he assumed the role of presidency - for one of his first actions as head-of-state to be mullings on presidential term limits - which could obviously be construed as an attempt to lengthen his own stay in power - is a terrible case of misplaced priorities. Even if his intentions were noble, perception matters. Secondly, if the argument was to force leaders to be more productive while in office, its a redundant one - this is what the electoral process exists for to begin with! to hold leaders accountable and vote them out if they don't do the job well. There is already a check in place to address this.

Thirdly & most importantly, was stops an elected official from condensing his looting to 6 years instead of two 4-yr terms? A looter will loot regardless. Limiting the terms to 1 and extending the length of tenure to 6yrs is a meaningless numbers exercise. If you give me a million bucks, I can blow it just as easily in 1month as I can in 1year.

On the other aspect you spoke about, GEJ being a sort of galvanizing political figure that engages previously uninterested people - I hope you're right. I'm sure he's done some good, but the criticisms from many who supported his presidential bid are pretty hard to ignore.

musKeeto: We are on the same page. Whatever fabric, if there is any, that holds our society is in tatters and needs to be rewoven.

There is no society per se in Nigeria, just a bunch of individuals trying to outdo each other and hoping for the right opportunity to 'hammer', doesnt matter who is hurt in the process..

^this right here is really the begining & end of the story.

Do I love my country? Yes...
Do I think there's hope? No, not if it continues on this downward trend...

Take for instance ALUU. Horrible, horrible, horrible. The kids in that community will be grown up sooner than we think. What lessons/morales will they have picked up from this incident?

We've been posting horrible results in WAEC and NECO exams. These kids will be adults soon.

An Indian here told me he visited Nigeria some years back. His dad works in Abuja. He said our aeroplanes are as crowded as the buses here. It was a funny comment, but it got me thinking. People have become too self-centered, and as long as they're making just enough to live above the sufferings of the common man, its not their problem..
I'm not saying everyone should try to fix the problems of our society, its easier said than done, and tbh much risky.

The truth is if we keep 'hoping' for change to come, change will also keep 'hoping' for us to come...

I hope to get involved in media services, probably through online media as soon as I'm through here.

The only hope for a 'change' is if people, esp those my age, are made aware of how one's actions, which may seem so trivial, may actually have a negatively profound effect on society.

My brother you don talk am finish. And you're right in saying the minds of the youth have already been poisoned so its tough to be optimistic about change happening in a generation or two. Its tough tough tough....considering this hopelessness why won't people be running to church? lol.

One thing I'll confess is I found myself 'sympathizing' with the 'atheist' while I was in naija. Churches everywhere. 10 on one street, facing each other, on top of each other, competing with each other etc etc and then going out into the madness that is the everyday street and seeing the 'lambs' turn into ferocious lions - it doesn't add up. I went to church only once while there and I couldn't wait to leave the service. The 'pastor' spent 2hrs blowing his trumpet & boasting of the demons he has cast & the reverence people have for him...seriously? and in the bulletin they actually printed names of tithers & the amounts...SERIOUSLY if this is what 'christianity' is then I certainly want no part of it.

Anyways...I hope the media gig blows up good for you. You intend on going back to set up shop?

musKeeto:


Do you think there will ever be a change in quality of governance and public administration within Nigeria, a more 'civilized' not necessarily 'American or European' mode of politics? A government that would curb wastage of resources and focus on providing basic amenities to its people? If yes, what do you think will influence such change? Would it be internal or external?

Sorry o... politics na my hobby to.. don't talk about it much though cos in Nigeria, it remains an exercise in futility as long as one remains outside the 'government'..

Resonded:

JeSoul: Mehn.......

so I was in Naija earlier this year after a long time, and to be honest I left feeling very hopeless for naija's future. When we talk about government, it is us, the everyday average man on the street, he is a reflection of the leadership, and what a sad reflection it is. What bothered me the most is how desensitized the people are to behavior that should be otherwise insane or frowned upon in any civilized society. Lemme give a very small example because something happened 2 days ago that reminded me of it:

we stopped at a mr biggs along lekki, we got in line and waited our turn. Another customer came in and stepped to the side, another came in after and stepped to the other side along the counter. As soon as the server finished serving the last customer both of the two new customers (well-dressed professionals) jumped ahead and started shouting their orders with disregard for who was there first. To make matters worse, the server went ahead to serve those forceful customers, equally disregarding those of us who came first.

I know this seems like a small & innocuous situation but flash forward to 2 days ago in Boston. I'm standing in line at the store behind one other lady. 3 cashiers are available but there's one line for all three. Another lady bypasses the line and goes to the front of one cashier and the other customers were furious. "You just don't do that" "Respect other people" "I want to see the manager" "This kind of behavior is not appropriate" etc etc were some of the comments you would think she'd just killed someone lol, to the point the lady stepped back from the line and asked me who was next to go ahead.

^the stark differences in reaction to the same situation flashed me back to mr biggs in Lekki - its the little things that speak volumes. I got the sense Nigerians in general do not care an inkling for anyone outside of themselves. I saw this repeat itself over & over when a car robbery/jacking happened 3 cars in front of us at the lekki toll gate, crowded with cars, all the other drivers kept mute & turned face and the police where right across the street chatting away.
-Or when an okada knocked off the front bumper of our car and simply drove off & "big men" in "Jeeps" drove on the wrong side of the road cos they didn't want to wait in traffic
-Or when the vulture customs agent at the airport threatened to confiscate some artwork I'd purchased from Ghana simply because I did not want to bribe them.
-Or when we were charged road fee, local govt. fee, parking fee, hut fee followed by constant harrassment for money & offerings (from a freelance 'pastor' that disturbed the peace with his 'preaching') just to spend a few hours at the beach.
-Or when the redeem church next door decided to do prayer service & choir practice at ungodly hours in the morning disregarding the residential neighborhood they're in
-Or when the local anglican church we went to actually printed tithers & the tithing amounts in the bulletin
-Or when the serenity is disturbed by the collective groan of personal generators reminding of the failures of govt.
-Or when I asked my sister why she wasn't stopping at the red lights, only to be told she was once robbed like that
-Or when driving on a busy bridge with traffic only to see it was one man that stopped to "ease himself" on the side
-Or when one lady had at least 7 small children crammed into one small keke 'taxi' where any of them could've easily fallen out & died
-Or when I told my parents I wanted to go for "a walk" and look around on VI or the mainland they laughed and said "people don't go for walks or 'look around' in Lagos". You can be targeted.

^these are all insane & this is Nigeria's govt reflected - we see it everyday in the insane things they do. ^^^but all this tori to answer your simple question - what can influence change in Nigeria? first foremost & above all - consideration for someone else other than yourself. Every progressive society has this trait, that we have a sense of community and "we're in this together" and my actions will echo and affect other people so I have to try my best to do the right thing. Life is so cheap & the Law can be so easily bought. I almost got into so many 'fights' with people doing the wrong thing, save the intervention of my hosts that it was futile & moreso dangerous.

Naija. Is there hope? I hope so. Nigeria has so many beautiful aspects to her culture - the food, the clothing, the folklore, the rich traditions etc. I love naija so I must have hope, afterall is it not soaked garri & epa & moi-moi I ate for lunch few days ago before I headed into the lab to do some experiments? lol. I know so many brilliant Nigerians so I know there can be hope - but who is willing to risk their life for a country that does not care?

^pardon the long post, you opened a can of worms .

From here:
https://www.nairaland.com/505782/questions-comments-complaints-talk-moderators/46#12685141

Logicboy03: NHS has been around before I was even born. Please, dont let Americans lie to you, they have lower life expectancy than the British

Lol. Okay oh. I just want to see how sustainable many of these programs are. As long as you have enough people paying into the system than taking advantage over it. So many European countries with similar programs have been circling the financial drain the past few years.

...the NHS na your pride now I know, na that one una take showcase during the Olympics, lol, una no shame compared to what the Chinese did 4yrs earlier.

musKeeto:


Do you think there will ever be a change in quality of governance and public administration within Nigeria, a more 'civilized' not necessarily 'American or European' mode of politics? A government that would curb wastage of resources and focus on providing basic amenities to its people? If yes, what do you think will influence such change? Would it be internal or external?

Sorry o... politics na my hobby to.. don't talk about it much though cos in Nigeria, it remains an exercise in futility as long as one remains outside the 'government'..

I removed my post from here, lets continue here so we don't 'derail' and so we have our own space.
Ihedinobi meet me here too
...https://www.nairaland.com/1083809/muskeeto-ihedinobi-lb...lets-talk-here

Logicboy03: 1) Notice my division of your comment into two parts. The first part would be a result of extreme liberalism on the society- an entitled socieity. The second part of your statement is the exteme conservative side- the bourgeoi; a society where the rich rule.

One thing is for sure; a society needs a safety net for the elderly and disabled or unemployed. That is a liberal stance. Ending slavery is a progressive stance. Womens rights is both a liberal and progressive stance. Conservatism is keeping tradition.


2) The bold of your comment is very dangerous. Numerically, there are more whites on welfare in total and so, we shouldnt stereotype latinos and blacks as welfare queens while leaving whites and asians with the stereotypes of hardworking people. Any race can be on welfare.

As someone living in the UK, Obamacare is the way.

Lemme correct myself (you're right) I stereotyped there and that's not good, I just had minorities in mind when I wrote that - thanks for correcting that. On the other side, while you're right that "numerically" there are more whites dependent on the system, percentage-wise minorities are more - and this is the more telling stat.

This "a society needs a safety net for the elderly and disabled or unemployed. That is a liberal stance." I daresay is not just a liberal stance but rather a human one. I just think that political labels have been slapped on that may/may not necessarily reflect the true beliefs of the adherents.

The NHS & Obamacare are great systems - in theory. I'd like to see where the NHS is in 10yrs. And Obamacare has so many issues I will just hold my peace - insurance premiums have already gone up thousands for next year. Until waste, greedy HMOS, corrupt drug companies & lazy, self-destructive people are addressed... there was a recent article on CNN that showed the healthcare system would benefit billions over a few years if people simply lowered their BMI by a few points. Healthcare is complicated, and I honestly have no good answer.

---

Ihedinobi: I'd love to pursue this discussion with you. I don't have the time right now, but I'll get on it, perhaps tonight or tomorrow. I hope you'll accommodate me.

The accomodation is mine

chukwudi44: The main question here is @ what point does a human being becomes entitled to his/her fundamental human rights.Does a foetus in the mother's womb have the right to life or should simply depends on the mothers wishes?

Very very important question at the heart of the issue - unfortunately the answer will vary from person to person, belief to belief.

I believe life begins at birth, and a foetus is inextricably tied to the mother - so it is not black & white on these issues. There was a thread a while back on a child who was raped, got pregnant & sick. Doctors said she needed to abort the baby or she may die. The Catholic church (this was Brazil I think, or somewhere Southamerica) said no, abortion is wrong in all cases, but what about the life of the poor raped girl?

If a child should be killed simply because it is undesirable I wonder the hypocrisy of prosecuting teenage mothers who smothered their kids like the one I read recently happened in the US.why was the mother arrested and charged for murder? Or is it simply because the baby has already been born?

If you can't kill a new born 'unwanted baby' I wonder what moral justication will you ave to kill the same baby in the womb

There is none! (at least in my opinion), but it is still their right to choose to do the "immoral" thing, just like its their right to 'sin' - or else God would not have given us freewill. And I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but I would never 'condemn' any woman who was raped and decided to not keep the pregnancy.

musKeeto: Your view on Nigerian 'politics' for lack of a better word, GEJ and 2015?

Ps: I hate when you give mature answers on topics I troll.. :-(...

Lol. Brother no vex ehn .

On Naija politics, me I prefer to read & learn. I always feel like I don't know enough to comment on that so I should be asking what is your view. I can comment though that I remember one of his first actions in office was to enact legislation to modify term limits for the presidency (that is never a good sign)- 2 terms (abbreviated or not) should be the max - and no more than 8yrs. One of the major problems with African countries are power-hungry presidents who refuse to relinquish the leadership to younger, fresher minds.

Logicboy03: This is why the democrats have the minority vote. Democrats and Republicans have both their share of racists and bigots. The difference remains that the democrats at least try to reach minorities. Equal pay act for women, womens right to abortion, dream act on immigration for mexicans etc

Honestly, you are completely right on this. I do think some republicans also try - they just prefer not to blow their trumpet while doing so.

Democrats state that they want equality and a safety net for soicety. It is not their fault if some people use such to establish their victim mentality.

Lol. Not their fault? I think it is. Democratic politicians rub elbows with minority leaders all the time - all in an effort to get their votes & stay in power. A politician only has 2 jobs: 1)Get elected, 2)Stay elected. Furthermore, that ideaology of "equality for all" is not realistic & does not take into account the (for lack of a better term) 'sinful' nature of man. There is a safety net, but it has turned into a permanent blanket for a portion of the population that feel entitled. What equality can there be for one who refuses to work hard but yet wants to have "equal" financial opportunities & lifestyle as one who does? I went to school & worked hard, why should my tax dollars go towards subsidizing Shaniqua or Maria who has 10kids & sits around watching Jerry Springer all day?

On the flip side, there is no question "the rich" do take advantage of the system towards expanding their wealth - it is morally wrong, that is the way of man. What I would advocate is getting into the system & beating them at their own game, instead of staying stuck in an endless cycle of victimism. And on the final, I do take into account the incredible dehumanizing effect generational poverty has on minorities, it is real & has a powerful grip on our people. We need a balance of both sides to help break the cycle.

Logicboy03: I was writing on why women should vote democrat. I have a liberal bias comes with atheism


Anyways, thanks for your answer. I can understand why people would like Romney due to some of his policies even though I am very liberal.


Obama was always going to destroy Romney in a debate. An academic vs a businessman?

...indeed it does, lol. I'll be interested to read your article when its done. In my opinion, a good chunk of the modern democratic ideaology is ever bent on casting you as the victim (and this is true to a certain degree) rather than demanding you take personal responsibility for yourself.

^sorry I'm rambling. Politics is a 'hobby' of mine.

Logicboy03: I can understand anti-abortion stance but some conservatives take it to the extreme. Isnt saying that you are pro-life enough? Why must one now mention molestaion?

Indeed they do, and make themselves look like total jack-axxes to common sense people everywhere. I'm conservative and anti-abortion, but pro-choice. Each woman should make their own decision & live with the consequences & will answer for them one day.

I think the real question should be 'why wouldn't you want to go to church every sunday'?

When you become a christian, you become joined to a larger family, a network of believers with Christ as the head. Just as you love your earthly family and enjoy spending time with them, so also you should enjoy spending time with your heavenly family.

I go to church because I honestly love my church, my pastor and my fellow brethren :-). I can see why it would be a chore if one didn't love their local church.

Logicboy03: A senate candidate, Richard Mourdock stated during the debate that;

[size=18pt]“I’ve struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from God. And even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.”
[/size]

This is not the first time that a christian conservative has made constoversial comments in order to promote his/her anti-abortion stance.

The tragedy that is this statement should be measured on the Richter Scale. It is also unfortunate too that this kind of nonsense will be ascribed as the belief of all conservatives. I can only shake my head.

Logicboy03: Hey, Jesoul


Are you going to vote for Romney or Obama (or if you cant vote, whom would you like to vote for)?

I need your answer as I am writing something (not on NL) on women and the DNC! (No argument intended)

*quite a unqiue question*

To be honest, I'm not sure yet . I was certain up until a few weeks ago that I was not going to vote for Obama but the debates have let me reversing that. Though I don't agree with many of his policies, I'm being convinced by the conviction he's shown in his beliefs as articulated during the debates - but we all know what a politician says is very different from what he does. Romney may align a bit more with my traditional views, but I don't believe he believes the things he says.

Sorry for the long answer and sorry if it doesn't help. In any case I'm definitely NOT a democrat (going by the popular definition at least). I'm a registered independent that leans conservatively to the right but also able to throw support behind some Liberal ideas < hope this helps.

Cheers.

ps. if I may ask, what are you writing about?