₦airaland Forum

wiegraf: I'm not saying you're admitting the faith is false, I'm saying you're admitting there's nothing particularly special about these prophecies, but you still choose to accept them for whatever subjective reasons you may have. Do I have this wrong?

No I'm not saying that at all - I have replied a few times to logicboy that hindsight is 20/20. Its easy to be a monday morning quarterback when you have the benefit of analyzing all the games already played.

I simply agreed that worldly systems in general tend to go towards extinction (religion included) - however, this does not encompass the entirety of Jesus' prophecies on the end times - I merely quoted one scripture verse. Hope that makes sense?

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Logicboy03: I think I have troubled Jesoul enough


I confess, it takes real faith and patience to handle my christian American bashing

The only thing that can trouble me is my Patriots or Celtics losing games to quack teams that they should otherwise win. Try again dude .

wiegraf: That's my point, it's fairly obvious that all things come to an end. So to predict the waning of the churches powers, xtianity, etc is nothing special.

I predict the USA will someday cease to be the dominant super power in the world. See what I mean?

So while those predictions might seem impressive to you, to others it's like "well... Ok". Or you could imagine another religion making similar claims and what your thoughts on that would be.

Along with that consider that people have been making these claims in some form or the other for hundreds, well actually thousands if you consider other religions, of years.

Though I do note you don't particularly disagree with me, you're more or else stating you'll cling to faith.

We need to seperate issues.

I acknowledged the institutionalized church systems will decrease in popularity - I made sure to highlight individual faith - the produces real tangible results in the personal lives of believers will not wane in strength.

Jesus said His church would face persecution - this should not be miscontrued as an admission of falsehood of the faith.

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Logicboy03: Christians killed in the early centuries is irrelevant. The prophecy is tied to the end times. Those christians that died in the first century died 2000 years too early for the prophecy.

Ironically, the opposite happened after the early centuries- Christians became the main killers.



Jesoul, admit it....atheism is looking good these days


I am sure that some christians here have become atheists but dont want to admit it and so, they have left Nairaland.

Lol. Atheism looks about as good as a stale plate of 10-day old molding fries next to a plate of my egusi soup with all the works.

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Logicboy03: Lol....I even thought you were talking about the book of revelations for the prophecy!
Anyway, let me debunk you on Jesus Christs prophecy that failed.

1)6 You will soon hear about wars and threats of wars, but don’t be afraid. These things will have to happen first, but that isn’t the end. 7 Nations and kingdoms will go to war against each other. People will starve to death, and in some places there will be earthquakes. 8 But this is just the beginning of troubles.


This the only part of the prophecy that came true. However, any fool could predict this. Earthquakes happen all the time and wars have always been a huge part of human history. At every earthquake since the 60's people have been claiming the end of the world.

Okay oh. Hindsight is always 20/20 .

2)You will be arrested, punished, and even killed. Because of me, you will be hated by people of all nations. 10 Many will give up and will betray and hate each other. 11 Many false prophets will come and fool a lot of people. 12 Evil will spread and cause many people to stop loving others. 13 But if you keep on being faithful right to the end, you will be saved. 14 When the good news about the kingdom has been preached all over the world and told to all nations, the end will come.[/color]

This is a whole lot of failed prophecies. No one in America is arrested or punished or killed in America just because they are christians. We could even extend that to Europe.

...hmm being a bit short-sighted aren't you? the christians killed in the early centuries? the christians killed in the 21st century esp in the middle east?

Furthermore, there were alredy false prophets before and after christ. Prophesying that false prophets will come is the equivalent of claiming that it will rain before the world will end. Just a simple calculated prediciton of the obvious.

Again, hindsight is 20/20. There are other end-time prophecies from Jesus. I just gave one scripture as an example, forgive I'm not timed to go quote others.

There are scientists from all backgrounds, yet they come to a consensus on most issues after reviewing the evidence thoroughly. This doesn happen in christianity

#reason 1,001 not to believe in Christianity

Science is not religion dude.

wiegraf: I agree with the bold though, it shouldn't bother y'all

Indeed. It doesn't "bother" me at all. Just silently re-affirms what I'm expecting.

I have this nagging suspicion that from at the very least the dawn of europe's renaissance xtians have been saying this. I'll have to verify that though. Regardless, they predicted the demise of their religion? Considering that all religions of this sort die off (or at least go through phases, zoroastroism(?) for instance has been fairly durable) that's quite the prophetic feat.

Well, don't all things tend towards their 'demise'? religious, economic, social systems? it is not unique to religion. (and btw, christian prophecy is only a 'demise' in the worldly sense of the 'organized' "church" - the individual faiths of believers who make up the true church will be ever strong come what may).

Logicboy03: 1) Not all christians suscribe to your bible prophecy
2) I read the same bible and the only interpretaion is that the prophecy is talking about the end of the world by rapture no by systematic decline in christianity.

Uhm, not exactly correct here. Its not a matter of 'intepretation', Jesus' words are pretty clear here about what will happen to christians:
Mt 24
Later, as Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him in private and asked, “When will this happen? What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world?”

4 Jesus answered:

Don’t let anyone fool you. 5 Many will come and claim to be me. They will say that they are the Messiah, and they will fool many people.

6 You will soon hear about wars and threats of wars, but don’t be afraid. These things will have to happen first, but that isn’t the end. 7 Nations and kingdoms will go to war against each other. People will starve to death, and in some places there will be earthquakes. 8 But this is just the beginning of troubles.

9 You will be arrested, punished, and even killed. Because of me, you will be hated by people of all nations. 10 Many will give up and will betray and hate each other. 11 Many false prophets will come and fool a lot of people. 12 Evil will spread and cause many people to stop loving others. 13 But if you keep on being faithful right to the end, you will be saved. 14 When the good news about the kingdom has been preached all over the world and told to all nations, the end will come.

3) Arrogance. The decline of christianity is the end of the world in your belief. Not the decline of laws, morality or other religions.

No wahala. You have your beliefs, we have ours.

4) The rise of secularism is neither a threat to our faith nor indication of its efficacy in our personal lives - but rather merely a fulfilment of bible prophecy


Then explain why we see christians crying over gay marriage. We see christians angry at Obama's "unchristian" policies. Why are christians fighting against providing contraception women? Why are christians scared of secularists removing prayers from public schools.



Sorry Jesoul, you know better to come in my thread and not back up your opposing claims.

As you articulately said at the begining, not everyone will subscribe to my views or method or approach. Humankind is diverse - christianity is made of up human beings - it would be illogical not to expect differences.

This may come as a surprise (but not to those who actually read the bible)...
christians expect christianity to decline around the globe because this is what the bible actually predicts. So we are not bothered by trends or statistics that we are actually expecting to see - au contraire - it re-affirms the beliefs we already hold as predicted in scripture to be true. A large portion of what is called "christianity" on the global scale is false anyways - so what is happening is merely the seperation of wheat from chaff.

The rise of secularism is neither a threat to our faith nor indication of its efficacy in our personal lives - but rather merely a fulfilment of bible prophecy. So jeer, smirk, jab, scoff & laugh on at its decline brother...we would not expect anything less

@prez,
yanno some of us actually have jobs & families to take care of ehn, instead of following hot-aired liberals on NL. I've given up on trying to 'discuss' with you. Lemme answer montelik and you'll see why your gloating is severely misplaced

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montelik: I suspect Jesoul voted for Obama. She is probably crying for Scott Brown. I would cry too if I was now being represented by Elizabeth Warren.

hmmm I'm suspecting you Montelik...lol. Did you see something somewhere?

Don't let Tayo see this oh, but I said this ~2weeks ago

JeSoul: *quite a unqiue question*

To be honest, I'm not sure yet . I was certain up until a few weeks ago that I was not going to vote for Obama but the debates have let me reversing that. Though I don't agree with many of his policies, I'm being convinced by the conviction he's shown in his beliefs as articulated during the debates - but we all know what a politician says is very different from what he does. Romney may align a bit more with my traditional views, but I don't believe he believes the things he says.

Sorry for the long answer and sorry if it doesn't help. In any case I'm definitely NOT a democrat (going by the popular definition at least). I'm a registered independent that leans conservatively to the right but also able to throw support behind some Liberal ideas < hope this helps.

As for the Elizabeth Warren part - that is truly the only aspect of the election that disappointed me through and through. Scott Brown is a dream politician who has shown he can work with both sides and get results - Warren is another figure-head who will do boy-boy & continue to carry the democrat water even though fire may be burning at her feet. But no surprise. Massachusetts is a blue state. Scott Brown's election in the first place was an anomaly.

CrazyMan: @Jesoul
Jesoul dear...how about the muskeeto that torments us here daily...its 6 months now and nothing has been done...any hope for that insecticide I requested for?

Haha
Here you go Crazyman, apply at least twice a day
https://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/59/596a4b3b-1f5e-4aec-b8e3-490f8f5e8ca8_300.jpg
[img]http://racheldoesscience.files./2012/08/mosquito_control-1.gif[/img]
https://www.bombayharbor.com/productImage/110302427320394199243Choo%20Mantar%20Herbal%20Coil/Mosquito_Repellent_Coils.JPG

Logicboy03: Jesoul,

Concerning the topic you locked, please look at my comments. I was civil to Sagamite.


I am just saying this so that I wouldnt be classified as the one that led to the derailing of the thread into abuses!


I have no problem with you banning the thread (just pleading my innocence)

No wahala, I know he started it. It will take massive amounts of 'hiding posts' to sanitize the thread. I'll reopen it if Frosbel wants.

Sagamite, again you're better than this dude...

Frosbel sorry we didn't catch this sooner & sorry I'm locking it. I may re-open after heads cool down & serve their bans.

Logicboy03: Hey, no problem


But never say never. If your husband becomes an atheist......................

....highly unlikely . As others has said, I have high hopes of you becoming a pastor one day, you have all the markings .

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Lord Babs: I believe there's still more rehabilitation we need to do for jesoul. Because I couldn't fathom why any tolerant xtian would keep banning me for airing a non-obnoxious view on the religious section, as if i'm a novice to the rules. The charlantary of our moderators sometimes bewilders the mind! Mscheew! (now ban me again)

uhmm oga, you should've asked on the mod/complaint thread now. Neither I nor any other mod has ever banned you from here. I just checked your logs and it was the spambot several times. No mod here will ban you without first warning you and then giving you the reason. Cheers bro.

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@Muskeeto, too kind, just too too kind

@Logicboy,
I forgot one point - you said atheism caused it - not atheism per se, but some of my atheist friends here certainly affected how I view athiests in general. Atheism itself? nah, I have never doubted & will never doubt that God exists. That truth for me is non-negotiable .

Oh wow this whole topic for only me one Logicboy gracias tanto!

Logicboy,
no controversy here - you're 1000% right that I've definitely changed from when I first came to NL in 2007. Infact, I will go a step further and say I'm also ashamed of some of the things I used to believe in - because they weren't borne of study but rather the blind following of tradition & hearsay. There is no shame in "changing your mind" as you acquire more knowledge and listen to diverse viewpoints. This is how we all grow in life and become better human beings. One of my favorite quotes of all time goes:

"one can only learn when he gives up the illusion he already knows"

and if I were to tell of some of the things concerning faith, religion, christianity that I quietly question in my heart everyday you'd probably think I've crossed over to your side lol. But to me honestly, faith is not being stuck in a rigid set of beliefs - but rather being comfortable with asking questions that may challenge those beliefs - and then adjusting those beliefs accordingly. I am comfortable saying "I don't know" to certain questions and being content with it. And after all the ceremonial dust from various doctrines/beliefs settles, one thing will always remain true for me - that Jesus came and died for my sins, and I will try to live my life after the greatest commandment - to love God & to love you (my neighbor) as I love myself. Tongues, tithes, hell, trinity, sabbath etc etc all fade sharply into the background in light of that commandment.

...thank you for all the kind words & compliments, my head is swelling . You all also help by keeping me in check so thanks to you too.

fluffybaby: LOL. I remember in school one yeye student pastor that I had respect for before o just called me and told me that all this small small money I give him do I think that it will lead him to pray for Gods favour on me? That instead I should give him big money like my school fees and see how he will challenge God for me. This na mumu man wey be say me go squeeze my last bucks entertain on a good day anytime he pays me a visit. That was the last day I spoke with him or anyome from that felowship.

LOL...the shamelessness of these theives is just...shameful.

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Brother Goshen

^personally, I try to refrain from speaking in absolute terms on things I do not know about. Strange things do happen.

Lol. I am proud to be a picky eater . I hate cheese, and so much of US cuisine is littered with cheese so I find myself peeling off layers of cheese quite frequently - nasty slimy icky goo - can't stand the thing lol.

^hard to say.
How can one tell what is staged vs. what is real when you're watching it on tv?

Lol.

I wonder where these children are getting their "income" from. Abi they also have to tithe on allowance money from mummy & daddy?

Children ought to be taught to give and share not "pay" tithe.

musKeeto: Lol.. good day Ma..

Good day oh oga

They're compatible. But WE live in an undeveloped society that's highly religious. Would like to know if Nigerian Christians and Muslims would prefer a more advanced society that's less religious.
hmm, maybe the question don change or I just made it clearer..

lol. The question don change. For me yes -kind-of. The mess that I saw in naija all in the name of 'religion' was sad.

On the flip side, I believe religion a-la-naija-style is merely an outlet for a collectively frustrated mass - take away religion and they'll merely replace it with something else to vent. As history has shown, religion can be a weapon on great destruction or unto great good - proving that the effects of religion depends on the person (or in this case the country) weilding it.

musKeeto: If dropping the foreign religions(Christianity & Islam) would bring development to Nigeria, would you?

NB: A big if here. I'm not saying it would. Just given a choice between your beliefs and development, which would you pick?

But this your question get k-leg now...

it assumes religion and level of development are related - and incompatible or that one cannot thrive in the presence of the other. Or am I mistaken?

^Logicboy holster your weapon...

You can present article after article of single cases and lawsuits - the simple point is this: atheism discrimination is real BUT is NOT widespread or a 'problem' in the US. Unless you have some statistics of surveys that states the contrary. Discrimination based on religion, race, status, disability etc etc all exist.

Chrisbenogor: Of everything you have said this is what I would call photshopping the truth.
The Nigerian is not ravenously hungry, that model of a happy society where there is food for all and life is good for all just simply does not exist.
Do we have a poor economy? Yes. Take a honest look and tell me out of every 10 people at least 9 can afford to have a cell phone. Not just owning one but spending a considerable amount of money on it monthly. There are people who find it difficult to eat that's true but do not make that to be the average Nigerian, that is simply cropping the truth.

"Cut your cloth according to your size, remember war against indiscipline" was a popular track on one of the very funny episodes of Jagua in those days. The average Nigerian is lacks discipline and is not content with what they have, they have imbibed in them the success model of get rich or die trying (no thanks to capitalism). I might not have a Private Jet in my life, I really don't care. I might not afford a phantom, I really don't care, food, clothes, water a roof over the head of my family a successful career and giving my kids the best education [-THAT I CAN AFFORD] in the world is what success is to me,not how much I leave behind. The mindset of the average artisan is that one day he will hammer and become a superstar.

GREED GREED GREED and no dignity, that is the problem. I have talked about falling tankers, willing to risk your life like that just to get a scoop of petrol that you would sell and make meager profit from is not because of ravenous hunger, its simply greed. Selling your votes for a bag of rice is downright stupidity and a lack of self worth, just recently these yeye traffic people jumped into my car after they said I had moved when I was not suppose to move. The short guy who was stopping traffic from the front of a very large truck knew that I did not see him and his pleas fell on deaf ears from his female "supervisor" and another man who was already calling a tow truck just because my car was less than 2ft in front of the line. I weighed everything and had a very very serious appointment that day, I parted with some good money because the hassle was just not worth my time. Before I did the main guy controlling the traffic was pissed and had dropped, the other guy saw my innocence and said they should leave but the madam insisted so I gave her the money and told her to at least feed her kids and that we would meet again. That is not as a result of being ravenously hungry, it is greed, a lack of self worth and a lack of discipline, add wickedness for a touch of good measure.

The poor leech on the poor, a taxi driver once told me during scarcity of petrol that this was the time to make big money. Transport fare shoot up from 50 naira to 150. The line is if petrol increases by 30 naira per litre then they have to increase their fares by 30 naira as well, which is totally wrong. The worst part of all this is that when petrol does come down or is no longer scarce they refuse to go back to the original price. Now the meat seller he is carrying because 30 naira was added would add 30 naira to all pieces of meat they would sell that day, greed or ravenous hunger? The buka woman who buys the meat would add 60 naira to her food because she paid 30 extra for meat and 30 extra for transport, all plates would have that amount added, ravenous hunger or greed?
You want us to go to ASUU, they want more everytime they want this and they want that. The strength and vigor with which they fight the federal government if they used that to fight lecturers that sleep with female students, ask for handouts etc would the system not be better?

The list is endless!

Exactly. Success is measured in cars & property, not quality of character & the family unit - which explains why we keep on churning out generation after generation of increasingly worse characters. You don talk am finish. This your thesis ehn...if only it can reach the right audience.

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plaetton: "Cut your coat according to your size".
You have no idea how times I have been insulted for telling people that.
Many Nigerians never want to hear that.
They have been told by their pentecostal churches that Jesus has entitled them to all the bounties of the earth, and that all they have to do is to reach out and grab it, even if by force, albeit, with supporting quotes from the bible.

Whenever I mention that one should cut their coats according their size , the response I alwys get is, "my coats are already undersized, so says my pastor".

LOL that is FUNNY! lol...my coats are already undersized...lol. that's a good line . Nigerians ehn, we are talented lol.

Logicboy03: A neutral position is the best option we have available. If a better system of government comes up we will accept it. Do you see how illogical you are? You know that secularism is a better option than any religious alternative we have but you are fighting tooth and nail against it just because your faith keeps telling you to.

Lol. If you say so. I'm simply trying show you that there is no such thing as truely "neutral".

Yes, Americans dont kill themselves or American football? Lol.

Who cares about the queen really?

Ah! poor queen, can't you be arrested for this blasphemy so?

Wow, how could you be ignorant about this? I dont mean to be insulting but I am just surprised. There are work place discrimination against atheists and evn in the public space.

Here is your evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States
http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/11/atheists-face-discrimination-in-us.html

Oga, a link on wikipedia that discusses certain cases in mostly govt positions (no stats by the way) and an athiest website does not count as evidence...furthermore your own link on wiki even says this: However, other atheists reject these comparisons, arguing that while atheists may face disapproval they have not faced significant oppression or discrimination.

In all the places I've worked no one could care less about your religion or color of underwear.

America is the home of racism. What happened to the real Americans? (Native indians)? Did you know that America was segregating blacks while figthing the racist Nazis.


Facism is dead. Dont start using tea party rhetoric here.


Utopia is impossible. The only people that claim utopia are your people. The theocracist that claim that a perfect system under god is possible

Lol...this is you. We're talking about one thing and you throw in native american genocide, slavery into the mix. If the US is the "home" of racism according to you so be it.

Logicboy03: Farming is capital intensive.
You dont just start farming, you need capital to get land and tools and seeds/animals.


Government has to provide incentives in such industries.

That is if you intend to industrialize and make a business out of it. Farming to feed yourself and your family does not require a fortune as demonstrated by our fore-fathers.

Now, you claim that people shouldnt sit on their behind. How can they start farming when there is unemployment and they are poverty? Where does the money come from to start an agricultural business. God will provide,eh?


Furthermore, many Nigerians have left the honorable route due to lack of a conducive environment into yahoo-yahoo and oil bunkering.


Now, a christian like you will call them theives without looking at the big picture.

Will you steal to feed your starving child when you are broke? Thou shall not steal?

Take a step back. I will not have a child to begin with if I don't have the means to feed & care for it. Truth in fact - the vast majority of thieves & criminals are NOT stealing to "eat" or "feed their hungry children" - they do so because they want other peoples stuff without working hard for it.

Logicboy03: Electricity nko? Why did you ignore that part of my argument?

Security/police nko?


I never said the govt should provide work for people. My point is that the govt must create an environment conducive for people to start businesses and create jobs., That is a duty of the govt.

If the govt can not provide electricity, security, incentives for creating jobs and social amenties, then you have no right for criticing people that chose not to engage in productive activities.



Please, not every government activity for the people is welfare. If so go and build yor own roads and stop preaching over-hyped anti-welfare conservative rhetoric

Lol...but you're the one who brought up with incentives & subsidies...I was merely replying to that. Where did I say the govt. should not provide security or proper infrastructures? In the presence of a govt. that has failed to provide these things the next thing is not to sit on your Behind and twiddle your thumbs in self-pity, (as plaetton said) there's an abundance of agricultural opportunities that otherwise 'proud' people won't take.

Logicboy03: No problem. We are all learning. Who knows, I might need marriage tips or some cultural knowledge from you someday!

cools .

Wrong. Even many christians in Britain argue that secularism should be the defualt position of the government. Remember that secularism is not anti-religion but the only system where many religions have lived in harmony

I don't contend that a neutral position would be 'best'. My point is the govt are simply people like you & me. Seperation of "church" & "state" can never be 'acheived' as long human beings are involved.

In the UK, you wouldnt find MPs making the same statements on rape. You wouldnt find any MP equating creationism with evolutiuon when it comes to academic studies.

But we would find you guys 'killing' yourselves over soccer & queen. Different flavas for different countries.

Atheists are disciminated against widely in America and so, there is widespread religious intolerance in the USA.

Please evidence & statistics, not emotional imaginations. I have never heard of anyone discriminated against based on their atheism - are you confusing it with naija?

Violent crime happens everywhere, yes. But please, do not make the argument that crime is not well reported in many European countries please! Sorry but that argument fails. Even in Japan. Japan is more peaceful than america on the Peace index.


Tolerance of gays in the UK is well documented. The UK and EU countries are far more tolerant of gays than in the USA. Even your Senatoprs gfo as far as making homophobic retorts without fear. Even Japan and China are tolerant of gays.

The USA is backwards on many developed factors for a Western country thanks to religion

Again many of these countries you've listed are notorious for racism, fascism and other isms... there is no utopian paradise anywhere. Some countries excel at one thing more than others. If you want to consider the entire package of socio-economic-politic-religious dynamics you'd be hard pressed to come up countries other than US, Canada, UK and a few other places. Or else why is everyone in the world flocking to those countries and not Slovenia, Qatar or Iceland on your index? quality of life is based on much more than just a "peace-index" rating.

plaetton: Covetousness in Nigeria is from the bottom up, and not from top to bottom.
Effective Governments are not formed by aliens, they are from the populace. A corrupt culture will inevitably produce corrupt, ineffective governments.
the leaders of government are deaf and dumb not because they are foreign invaders who have come to loot our country, no, they are deaf and dumb because
that is what we, the people, produce and recycle.

Agree completely. I was just about to reply logcboy to that effect.

@logicboy,
it is not the 'job' of the govt to provide you with a means of sustenance in form of work. As plaetton said, the govt is you. This is where personal responsibility and accountability comes in. Sure subsidizing programs and creating incentives are actions that go aways in helping, but they should not be the basis.

plaetton: @Jesoul:

You are right on. Nigerians are an extremely covetous lot.
Ofcourse, there are lack of opportunities for many in Nigeria,but like you said, that is not unique to Nigeria.

Nigeria is also full of opportunities for anyone willing to work hard(or suffer, as they call it). But everyone has been lulled into this culture of instant gratifications and instant riches. Our attitudes and work ethics are atrocious compared to what is obtained our third woorl peers like , as you mentioned, Ghana.

With a fertile land and 150 million to feed, how many are engaged in agriculture and food production?.
How many of our arm-robbery and kidnapping suspects would be proud to earn a living producing food, or trading in crayfish?

Articulately said. The culture of instant gratification is a huge problem - along with the desire to out-do one another in material wealth. I was going to mention the farming aspect earlier and I'm glad you did. Many of the people "hustling" in lagos can return to their 'villages' and have a decent quality of life by living simply, if not begin an industry as you said.

But there is no "pride" or sense of "accomplishment" in tilling land or farming crayfish.

How many times has anyone of us tried to give someone an opportunity only for them to turn around and rob or swindle us in order to get their instant gratification?.
Covetousness is the word.
Covetousness at all levels, that is the bane of Nigeria's cultural,political and economic landscapes.

Infact ehn, Godbless you for this point. It is the one thing that truly takes my hope away, that someone can be so short-sighted as to take advantage of someone who's trying to help you advance. Naija problems ehn...

Logicboy03: Power distance (You learn this in Management/Business when dealin with international culture). Power distance is the degree to which people in a society accept inequality in authority among people. Power distance in Nigeria ia high as we give huge respect to elders/leaders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_distance#Dimensions_of_national_cultures

Thanks for the education. Business courses were my least favorite

I dont want to eliminate religion. However, the importance of religion has to be reduced to a personal level where everybody is free to practice his religion but can not force it on others. This also means that religion is not given any preferential treatment- no blasphemy and no laws based on religion.

This can not happen in a society where someone is not allowed to put up a signboard saying "there is no god" without death threats and destrcution of private property.

I want a country where the people understand that secularism is the default position. Your faith is taking a leap with no evidence. The moment you understand that, you will never ever think of forcing morals on someone who doesnt share your faith.

I have no problem with people of faith sharing their religion but they must understand that they are not doing something that is plainly good. Religion is neither good nor bad. It has both negative and positive consequences

I have no problem with your quote here.

Except for where you're asking 'secularism' to be the 'default' position. By doing so you're unwittingly doing exactly the same thing you accuse religionists of - imposing a worldview on others. By "default", the majority of humans have historically held various religions sacred - sometimes towards their benefit and other times unto destruction - proving that religion itself it not the issue - it merely exposes what a person already is.

Logicboy03: I like how religious people always make 2 wrong arguments


1) That atheists want to eliminate religion

2) USA is doing well with religion

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1) I dont want to eliminate religion as an atheist. What I want is for religion to be kept where it should be- away from government and laws. You can have your religious freedom to practice, spread and share your religion but you cant force it on others.

Fair and is the position of many people of faith as well.

2) The USA is suffering with religion. Look at how they are still battling with creationism. Where a Senator in the science commitee was claiming that evolution is nonsense. What about Senators that are saying that rape is from God? What about violence that is much more compared to other Western countries like Sweden and Japan- where in America abortion clinics are bombed, gay children abused and bullied, etc.

America is not the most developed or the most peaceful nation in the world. The countries that beat America are quite atheistic.

The USA is "suffering" with religion? really? you may want to explain how. That a few rogue senators or people in leadership make boneheaded comments does not indicate a widespread epidemic of religious intolerance.

On violence in the USA - negro please . Violent crime happens practically everywhere. It may only seem to be more prevalent in the USA simply because it is reported and prosecuted, unlike many other places. Are you really arguing about gay tolerance in of all places the USA? please tell me how many other countries are better in tolerance save for a few european giants?

Logicboy03: Jesoul, I avoided this thread because my solution is first to do with illogical baggage that Nigerians carry. Power distance, institutionalized bribery and unrestrained religion.

Which one be "power distance"? abeg explain.

Religion is part of the problem in Nigeria and second to only corruption. The fact that you believe faith and realistic solutions can go hand in hand is problematic.

There is a limit to which we can agree on solutions. We can talk about corruption and lack of security in Nigeria but we will never agree on religion.


Quite shameful. You fail to see that when you carry christianity or islam as good things for Nigeria, you are part of the problem.


I wonder why someone will look at Sweden, Denmark, Japan and many other top advanced countries and still think that religion is necessary or a good thing

I look at it the same way I look at partisan politics.

A hallmark of a well-functioning society is not the absence of religion (as some of you atheists will insist) or else why are countries like the US doing fine? It is rather assigning & relegating issues to their proper place...^by this I mean I will not bring in principles in the Beatitudes or parables and attempt to apply them when I'm mixing chemical compunds in the Lab.

A hallmark of a well-functioning society is not the absence of religion - it is the proper practice of it in proper context - along with other pillars of science, economics, common-sense etc.