₦airaland Forum

[quote author=optimus-prime1]Not to sound unpatriotic or something, but I cant see the Beauty in holding a Nigerian Passport... Those who have experienced 1st hand Crappy & unfair treatment@ intl' airports because of that same "GREEN" Passport can attest to the established fact, that there is no Beauty at allll in being I.D'd with it, frankly its even risky.
The day that Green Passport gains prestige, its not just some random article by a potential Matyr that will speak about its Beauty, Everybody will.
For now, I'm just not feeling nothing about its so called "Beauty".
My people wey dey travel, Abi I dey lie??[/quote][quote author=prince_onx]I didn't even bother to read those article you posted but from my travel experiences, am glad, proud, and very happy to have a second passport other than the naija s#!+ we call passport! I don't even remember I have it except when planning to visit Nigeria.[/quote]^you fellas should've read the article "the beauty of the Nigerian passport" was actually meant tongue-in-cheek

Here's the article. It starts out a bit slow...but it gets quite hilarious I've bolded some funny bits...nice job by the writer.
:

On Arrival at Murtala Mohammed Airport

The flight was catastrophic. I looked forward to breathing the air of my beloved country. I was besieged by an overpowering smell of garlic, onions, leek, coriander and turmeric marinated in bile to my left. To my right, arrears of untaken bath mingled with stale cigarette, liquor and cheese to savagely assault my lungs; I needed a gas mask. For several minutes after take-off, I seriously considered pulling the oxygen mask from the cabin above, but the announcement that came earlier said it would drop on its own in the case of loss of cabin pressure. Wahala. How about in the event of loss of lung pressure - due to odor from neighbors - by a passenger? I must inquire of the air hostess

“Excuse me.” The air hostess turned and seeing who it was, said “I will be with you in a minute, ma’am.” An hour passed and then two. I tried another, “Excuse me, please”

“Yes ma’am, how may I help you?” His head was held stiffly up, his fingers were intertwined and held up to his chest. His eyes pretended to meet mine but did not. Eyebrows were raised and knotted at the forehead, and neck slanted unconcernedly to one side. This was no posture assumed by one eager to help. His scowl suppressed my inquiries deep down my larynx. It contrasted sharply with the solicitous carriage and graciousness that marked his countenance when he addressed the Asian to my left, and the American to my right. Drawing close to their cavities as if they smelled of mint, he smiled, laughed, joked, offered this and that; in an effort to validate the advertisement of their airline as the most friendly trans-Atlantic voyager in existence.

“May I have a glass of water, please” I said.

“I beg your pardon.” He said, louder than he should have, still maintaining his aloof posture.

“A cup of water, please” I repeated. Slowly, loudly, clearly, even the deaf could have lip synced my words.

“If you could speak up a little louder and clearly, ma’am, I would know what you want and try to get you some help.” Irritation was clearly visible beneath the pretensions of his polite words.

Clearly the airline’s hospitality was created for a select group of flyers. My kind does not fall within their target market. My brown hands waved him off as politely as I could. Never mind. I was not about to loose my voice begging for the second most freely available commodity on earth.

“I think she may be asking for water” The American volunteered. His large, hairy, red hands clutched a copy of the Washington Post, the pull-up desk was littered with a half empty coffee cup, two half eaten wraps of burger, a hot dog, an unopened Mars bar and a book of Sudoku.

I had to be spoken for in order to get what I paid dearly for. Prior to my traveling outside Naija, I had never stammered or stuttered a word; I could not comprehend the psychological effects of struggling to be understood until the first time I uttered a word in the western hemisphere. It robs you of something deep within your soul. Almost as if you are struggling to be accepted as sane and fully human. It takes a lot of respect for the human spirit to not dismiss someone who does not look like you or talk exactly like with a wave of the hand. While in Africa we have that value in abundance, civilizational arrogance has robbed many Westerners of this precious grace.

The waiter returned after 20 minutes with about eight to ten tablespoonfuls of water in a tiny plastic cup. Placing it roughly on my desk, he hurried off. I clenched the cup and thought of home. In less than an hour, I will be in Naija, land of my fathers; the land where I am never judged by the color of my skin or stereotyped according to my nationality. Where my speech is understood and I am seen as the human being I am. A peaceful, anticipatory sleep overtook me as dreams of hugs, warmth, acceptance and lots of clean drinking water filled my vision.

The announcement came just as I looked through the window to behold the haze and maze called Lagos.

“You country butiful” The Asian besides me lied, drinking the last drop of his 10th cup of green tea. He was smiling into my eyes and pretending – or so I thought - to be admiring the pandemonium that is the bird eye view of Lagos.

“Thank you so much” I gave back a faux smile of appreciation. Why risk purgatory, hellfire, bad karma or whatever he believes to please a total stranger, I was thinking, as I nodded my head severally in ‘agreement’ with him.

But perhaps, he meant his words. I suspect that the beauty he sees is beyond the physical. Fine boy na fine pocket. For the greater part of the flight, he had discussed with the American on the Oil Prospecting License (OPL) his company had secured approval for. The visit was to prepare for the commencement of seismic studies on the fields. His excitement was palpable all through the conversation.

My lungs took in the hot oxygen of Lagos. It felt good to be home. We filed across to the immigration counter where we were separated into citizens and foreigners.

It got to my turn and the customs officer took my passport. She seemed angry about something very deep and personal, and it reflected in her mannerism. An unusually long period of time was spent on examining my passport.

“Wait by the side.” She said as she flung my passport on the desk beside her computer, and beckoned on the next in line.

“Excuse me, madam. Is there something wrong with my passport?” I asked. My question was ignored.

After about 15 minutes, a tall officer with well ironed uniform, who had emerged from somewhere was handed my passport

“Madam come here ” he demanded, motioning for me to follow. I found myself inside a cell-like office containing an unusually large desk, several old box files and about five chairs. All the chairs were occupied and two men stood facing the officer who now sat at the desk. All the occupants were male, and most wore pensive looks, as if waiting to undergo a CAT scan to determine the number of cocaine wraps in their stomach.

There was no more standing space inside the room so I stood by the door and waited.

“Oga mi, sir. Na student I be.” The man in his late fifties explained in a rough manner. He spoke very fast and looked everywhere apart from the eyes of the officer he was addressing. His long limbs covered the length and breadth of the room as he gesticulated widely.

“What date do you want?” The officer asked as he lowered his voice and his head and hunched his shoulders, pulling at the cabinet as if searching for something.

“October 15th, sir” the ‘student’ responded with a smile.

“You mean September 15th” The officer said as he began to adjust the stamp. I remembered that day to be the 3rd of September.

“No sir, I means 15th of October. Next month sir.”

“What? No! You want to sack me from my job? No way.”

“My brother let me explain. I am a student and there is a way it works over there with us students.” Both hands were spread in supplication and head was thrown to one side in a show of helplessness and sincerity of motives.

“There is nothing to explain, please. I cannot do that.” The officer reached his right hand inside his breast pocket and retrieved 100EUR bill. “Take your money and go please, I don’t want trouble.” He said.

“Oga please, understand my predicament.” The ‘student’ was insistent.

“I said no, my friend. Take your money and go, abeg.” He was supposed to stretch the whole length of his arms to give back the money, but he only lifted his arm a little. His elbows were still placed on the desk. Clearly, he was not eager to let go of the bill.

“No problem. If it is not convenient for you now I can come back.” The student said. He refused to accept the money and stomped out of the office in annoyance.

“Madam, go back outside, this office is too crowded. When I finish attending to these people seated here, I will call you.” He said in my direction.

I had been standing for almost ten minutes watching the drama in front of me. Add to this, the tiredness of a long haul flight; I was almost dizzy. I wobbled out and sat just outside the office to await my turn.

The tiny water I was served aboard the flight had trickled its way to my bladder. The hallowed air of my beloved country seems determined to purge the water, together with the unpleasantness associated with its entry, from my system

I searched for the rest room. An overpowering smell of antiseptic - of the cheapest, and one suspects, toxic kind – led my to the right place. I opened the door and almost knocked down a dirty looking bucket filled with brown water. A dirtier looking rag soaked inside. There was no one else in the restroom.

[b]Entering the first open stall, I found no tissue paper. The noise behind indicated that someone was moving the bucket. He turned out to be a diminutive youth with acne and acne marks covering 3/4 of his face. A man? I thought I was in a female restroom. Looking at the doorpost, I realized that the sex indicator sign was broken and only the head remained. There was no Shuku, Bob Marley braids, Shalamar or punk hair cut on the head to guide me in making an informed guess. I let that pass.

“Excuse me please, do you know if I can get tissue paper anywhere?” I asked the man.

“Bring money make I go buy for you.”

My bladder was bursting and I was not sure how long it would take him.

He seemed to be a mind reader for he added quickly, “If you add transport, I fit take Okada go come in 10 minutes.”

“Don’t worry, thank you.” I said as I searched my bag thoroughly. Thankfully, I had not completely exhausted my tissue paper pack.

Inside the stall the lock was broken and I had to hold the door with one hand. I noticed a large hole gaping at me where the lock of the door should have been. The cleaner was bent cleaning the area directly outside my stall and had unobstructed view of the inside. I shared my tissue paper into two equal halves and used one part to block his view.[/b]

Back at the waiting place, it was now my turn to be “served.”

“Madam, you have been ‘uselessing’ your passport, ehn?”

“I am sorry sir, I don’t understand.” I replied, confused.

“What do you mean you don’t understand. You have broken the electronic chip inserted in your passport by careless usage. The computer could not read your passport.”

Wonders shall never cease. Where on earth does a citizen get this type of verdict on a legally acquired passport?

“Sorry sir, I still do not understand.” I replied in a weak voice.

“You don’t understand what? Am I speaking Latin? Or you think I am lying? Oya, come and see for yourself.”

He led me back to the immigration checkpoint. It was now clear of passengers. Holding up another passport to the sensor, the image and details appear on the computer. He held up my own passport but nothing showed.

“You see for yourself? Only you know what you have been doing with this passport. You do not know that a passport should be treated with care and respect.”

Anger simmered within me. Nigeria should not have bothered with an electronic passport system if this is the unfortunate outcome. No right thinking frequent international traveler treats his/her passport carelessly. It is about the only assurance one has of belonging somewhere, and being able to get where s/he is going.

“Sir, this is strange. I treat my passport with utmost care. I do not believe it is my fault that the sensor is not able to pick my passport details,” I insist in a firm but polite manner.

He got angry at my comments.

“OK. So it is my fault, Ehn? It is my fault that you are driving, sleeping and playing with your passport?”

“Should we try another computer, please?” I could not think of anything else to say.

“Try what? You think I have time or that I do not know my job?” He was walking back to the office with me following behind.

“So instead of begging and asking how we can arrive at a solution, you are proving to me that you know what to do. We shall see who is right here.” He pulled a worn out box file from an open shelf across his desk.

“Madam, how we do with your case is that we have to send your passport to Abuja, which is the place of issue.” He proceeded to fill an internal memo form with my passport profile page open in front of him.

“It usually takes about two weeks to process. I will give you a duplicate copy of this to go to Abuja and follow up there.”

I was now shaking with anxiety.

“Sir, my return date is in less than one week and I do not have any business in Abuja this time.”

“That one is your business.” He said without sympathy. “There is no way you will be allowed to leave this country without rectifying this problem.”

I felt tired, defeated, worn out.

He handed a duplicate copy of the memo to me and left the office to join his other colleagues gathered and chatting outside.

With a heavy heart, I went to retrieve my luggage. I proceeded to the first immigration officer at the exit gate.

“Welcome back. Madam. What do you have in your bag?”

“Books and clothes” I responded warily, waiting to be told of a new law against bringing in one’s books or clothes into the country.”

“Please open your bags for verification.”

I opened my bags and he absent mindedly felt it here and there, casually asking if I brought anything for him, without looking at me.

“Next time, my brother. E get as e be today.”

“No problem, Madam. Welcome home and enjoy your stay.”

The next officer politely asked for my passport and ticket.

“Oga no passport, o! Your brothers collected it saying that it is damaged. I have to go to Abuja and retrieve it,” I said as I handed my ticket to him.

“I am so sorry to hear that, madam.” He sounded genuinely sympathetic.

“Please do not let that spoil your stay. Be rest assured that if you go to Abuja and act accordingly, it will be treated with dispatch and you can have your passport back. Just be careful how you use your passport in the future. Do not worry, it is well.” He gave me an understanding pat on the back as he helped to adjust the boxes on my trolley.

I was moved by his empathy and for the first time since my soles touched the sands of Murtala Mohamed Airport, I felt at home. Saying a big thank you to him from my heart, I exited to the warm and loving hugs of family and friends. Na wah o!

PS: The Nigerian Government should kindly look into the issue of “damaged” passports. There are several complaints from citizens about the frustrations of getting their passports “repaired” (whatever that means). Thank you. This is a work of creative non-fiction

Nice thread.

Areaboy (and others),
From an educational standpoint - please check out the app Solarwalk. It is quite possibly the greatest app ever made. It lets you globe universe-trot in real time across planets, stars and galaxies giving detailed information & statistics. I've been in love with the app ever since I got it.
http://vitotechnology.com/solar-walk.html

https://www.nairaland.com/1108263/private-jets-slams-kukah-bakare
Pls continue on the previously opened thread.

https://www.nairaland.com/1108263/private-jets-slams-kukah-bakare
Pls continue on the previously opened thread.

I honestly sympathize with you. It is never easy being in the minority especially in regards to religious affairs.

While it is certainly true they are 'deluded' on many fronts, I encourage you to keep an open mind. And don't use a few as a yardstick to measure an entire group (and I'm glad you acknowledged this too). I have previously been on the delivering end of 'yabbing' CE until I spent some good time with a few of them (real good, sensible, honest people) that drastically shot that belief down.

I'm sure its not easy being an atheist in naija. May God (pun intended ) be with you as you navigate the complications daily.

This TB Joshua sef, he is spoiling market for other mogs.

honeychild: But the Islam for Muslim section clearly says: Muslim only. Does that mean none Muslims cannot comment on Islam?

Unfortunately sister, the rules are what they are and as you've seen many already mention its not 'fair' to other posters. You can post in their section, just follow their rules and you should be fine.

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Joagbaje: @ moderators ,
I will kindly like logicboy to be cautioned from following me about with abuses and insults for no just cause . I believe I have right to post my contributions like everyone else wihout Harassment .pls kindly look into this menace.


https://www.nairaland.com/1104859/beware-pastors

Logicboy03: Okay, I'm sorry


You are just a tithe preacher.

Logicboy thanks .

Ihedinobi: I think you might have completely misunderstood me. I was not at all implying that it is not right to expect and demand right behavior and proper conduct from human beings wherever they are. I was saying that even such an expectation must be balanced with the correct appreciation of the obtaining realities.

For instance, would you roll up to a grocery store in a gang-infested ghetto in New York and leave your car unlocked just because you can do it in, say, Beverly Hills? Or would you take a walk at night in an alley right there in the US known for its attraction for r.ap.i.sts, especially without a means of securing your safety first? And these because there's a basic and fundamental social ideal of human behavior that is universal?

I'm imagining that you'll agree with me that my questions are rhetorical. You couldn't do such things in the States for such a reason. You'd be considered mentally imbalanced or stu.pid, I think. It's the same with the issue. Granted Nigeria should not be a jungle, but it sure as nails is. Because it is, while every reasonable person with Love in their heart is working to fix the situation, such a person will also respect the realities on ground. That means that any day I come over to the States, you could come along with me for a late-night drive but there's no chance on earth I'm ever gonna spin my wheels after 10pm on the streets of Lagos if I can do anything about it until I'm sure that the Nigerian policeman on the streets has had his head fixed.

In this case, it would seem that I'm the one being realistic rather than you, wouldn't you say?

A little but I think I get the main gist of your position - "in naija it is what it is so act accordingly" abi?

I totally understand and concur with recognizing where you are - and then adjusting your behavior to protect yourself. That is reasonable. What is not reasonable is that it seems to be the norm rather than the exception - and that you appear almost non-chalantly resigned to this reality is....I dunno, not cool & not inspiring.

I stayed out late ~12am one night with friends in this very same area and my dad was freaking out when I returned. I now see how foolish I was - to have a misplaced expectation of not being invaded at my girl's house and being robbed & ra.ped. I know you don't condone the evil, but the way you articulate your position leaves a lot to be desired sir.

^But what about the people that were sitting down in their own homes minding their business? (to echo Chris' point)

Chrisbenogor: Quick question/s

1. What role does figures of speech have to play in most of what was written above, IMO there is a lot of figurative speech that should not be necessarily interpreted literally.

2. How much do you trust their knowledge of biology and the human development process?

My opinion:
1. Figurative speech abounds in scripture. Here I believe life is at "conception" ...leading to what I think your second question is...

2. I don't trust anyone's knowledge of biology who is not a biologist. In regards to my answer above, what exactly is "conception" is not as clear cut as many think - fertilization, implantation etc etc. Some fertilized eggs even 'miscarry' without a woman knowing she was ever pregnant because it happens so early on a week or two.

And finally really, I have asked time and time again, if a foetus would kill the mother, who would you save?
Because there can be no double standards, "murder should be murder"

If you read the link to that thread you'd see I wouldn't hesitate in that case to save the mother's (a young girl) life. Which is why I said its not always black & white. Sometimes its medically right to abort, other times it is reasonable to take a risk and carry the pregnancy to term. In each case I'd weigh the opinions of the doctors vs. my gut vs. whichever way God was leading me.

Cheers sweetie

Ihedinobi: Figured I should address this. You'll forgive me, won't you?

I saw his story on this thread before he created a new thread for it. I did feel for him but strongly disagreed with his conclusions regarding the matter. I refrained from expressing what I thought because I felt he might receive my opinions as a belittling of his misfortune. However, it might serve everyone if I expressed those views now.

If I came to the US and stayed away from the parks because I thought I would have to pay to enjoy them (my understanding is that you don't, am
I right?), I think I would be rightly labeled "naive". If in the same country I refused to call the police when someone pulls a fast one on me and threatens me too just because I'm afraid that the police would seize the opportunity to blow large holes in my pocket, I'm pretty sure I'd get educated on how I'm no longer in Nigeria. My point is, it was a very naive thing to do to be on the streets of Lagos in any thing short of an armoured tank at that time of the night. Plain naive. It was also hilarious, incredibly too maybe, that he should have expected more from the Nigerian police than he got.

That's the point I was trying to make about treating each nation and people-group according to their uniqueness and peculiarity. It's useless to say, "it should not be so, such-and-such does this and has that or would not have allowed that or condoned this". The reality is, you're not in such-and-such, you're in Nigeria. You should act like it.

Now acting like it is not necessarily condoning failure, instead it's recognizing and acknowledging its existence and as such. That in itself is the first step toward fixing the failure. Nobody ever fixed anything by wishing or complaining them away. They always started by making their peace with the fact that there was something to be fixed.

So, while you could probably very quickly and effortlessly supply fifty more horrid stories like his before I've finished telling one good one, the question is: is there hope, or is there a practical basis for hope that Nigeria will turn around? As long as I can point to at least one positive thing that does not fail in the face of the hundred negatives, there is hope. Question asked and answered.

Infact ehn...I'm not sure I want to touch this post lol.

If you're indeed saying basic and fundamental social ideals or expectations of proper human behavior should not be universal....then you're on your own oh! Nigeria does not exist in a vaccum - if we don't demand we rise up the world standards - well this is why we're fading more & more in the rear view mirror compared to much of the world. And I'm afraid the daily grind in naija may have imprinted a sort of desensitized cynicism on you (my turn to yab abi? ) no but really - I'm serious, recognizing failure does not have to take on this folded-arm approach of "well, it is what it is". I fear you oh.

Enigma: @JesoulI think it is inadequate to simply use Lagos, a rather tiny geographical area when compared to the entire Nigerian geography, as a sole or the determinative benchmark for attitudes throughout the entire country.

I would concede this point...except for the testimonials of others on this thread in locations across the country and testimonials seen everyday in the media.

Yes, I might have used a comical tone with the knowing 'swindler and swindled' scenarios but I am very serious about the underlying point. There is a distinction to be drawn between out and out fraud and a case where the 'swindler' knows you can afford to let go that N100 (and you know it too) and the 'swindler' is basically nudging you in the direction of letting it go. These scenarios are even capable of being distinguished from the case of the petrol attendant trying to "die" your change.

Let me leave you with a comparison of two scenarios:

A. You ask a belt seller 'how much'? He says N1,500; you a diasporan are not familiar that much with the culture or prices anymore; maybe you haggle a little bit and succeed in buying the belt for N600; you get home and your sister says ah you've been "swindled" --- the belt is only about N200.

B. You live in the UK, you go into a shop to buy an electrical item; the price tag is £100 (no haggling); you get home and a friend who works in retail tells you that the cost price to the shop was only about £25 even taking account of all their relevant expenses/overheads etc. (An aside: many retailers here have a culture that if they buy 10 items for sale, they should have covered the costs of all 10 and made profits by the time they have sold just 3! Then of course if they need to quickly shift the rest they can do a "sale" or price reduction exercise.)

What is the substantive difference between the two scenarios? And what might differing cultures have to do with it? Just food for thought.

I don't think there's any real need to draw a difference between A and B or whether the final cost levels out to be the same - this is a diversion from the real point - you can't compare Naija to UK because one is a functioning society and the other is not. The 'little' haggling may in the end level out to what you may pay abroad - but the attitude & mentality is drastically different.

One more thing: I read you earlier suggesting that unemployed youths should go back to the village and engage in farming. I am very sorry that that is extremely simplistic: where will they get free or even any land to farm? Assume they have to pay for land, how are they going to afford it? Can they live on farming alone? How much can they sell their harvest for that will cover their basic general living expenses? Clothing, housing etc?

Simplistic you say? okay oh. I know it is not an option for everyone but it is certainly one for many - afterall aren't these people moving into Lagos from somewhere in the first place?

We may not agree of course and that is fine.

Ah! indeed we don't! lol.

Nevertheless, I believe a more proper, sober, forensic assessment is required and not quick/snap and even posibbly emotive assessment. Let me reiterate that I too have experienced first hand the frustrations of sometimes even seeing people behaving hardly better than animals. On the other hand, I have been around several parts of Nigeria other than Lagos to have a rounder picture.

I agree again that there is certainly some good parts - every country is like that. Where we diverge is that this chucks up to a significant percentage. You can cite my lack of experience in travelling naija (notwithstanding I've lived in 3 different states there) but I will quickly point out that even people who are there are saying no different from me.

---

On another subject - I find myself "understanding" (not completely shifted over though) your opinion on that child baptism thread. Its funny. Somethings have to experienced to be understood - and you were 'kind' enough not to rub that in my face :: appreciated!

uchkochi: ONCE YOU ARE DIVORCED AND YOUR SPOUSE IS STILL ALIVE, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO MARRY AGAIN EXCEPT THAT SPOUSE DIES. If you re-marry, you are only living in adultery and no matter what you do for God, on the last day you will still go to hell.

This is the truth, You can divorce your wife or husband for certain reasons especially infidelity, but can you remain single all your life? Especially after you have tested the bliss in marriage? MATTHEW CHAPTER 19:3-9. So you must apply wisdom and make things work, divorce is never an option.

It is better not to be married than to be married to a bad wife or a bad husband. The bible says it is better to stay on top of the roof of a house than with a nagging woman. That is why God must be involved in choosing your life partner, not all that glitters is gold, God knows your life till forever, He can see the end, so let Him be involved. Yes you have the responsibility to find, but you are to find God's choice for you, that is to recognise her. If it is God that gave you that partner and it becomes bad tomorrow, you can meet Him to fix it in prayers. Proverbs 18:22. Romans chapter. 7.

The reason why God is against divorce is this; In marriage, the man and the woman are one flesh, being one Flesh, is ONE BODY. And that union cannot be broken by divorce, it can only be separated by death. Genesis 2:24. BB PIN IS 2739F228.

This is quite an unfortunate statement. Its sad that many believe it, but it is wonderful that it is not true.

Pls continue on this previously opened thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1102126/nigerian-church-losing-purpose-ayobami
The Nigerian Church Is Losing Its Purpose

honeychild: I started a thread on contradictions in the Quran. It was moved to the Islam for Muslims section. Can anyone shed any light on this

Hi sister. This thread? "For Muslims: Contradictions In The Quran https://www.nairaland.com/1103303/muslims-contradictions-quran"
The admin moved your thread because all muslim topics belong in the Islam section.

http://carm.org/bible-abortion

What does the Bible say about abortion?
by Ryan Turner

The Bible does not specifically mention the word abortion, but it has a number of significant things to say about unborn children. These Biblical statements indicate that the unborn are persons. Therefore, abortion is wrong since it is killing a human being. A simplified form of our argument is the following:

Premise #1: It is wrong to murder a person.
Premise #2: The unborn is a person.
Conclusion: Therefore, it is wrong to murder the unborn.

Premise #1: It is wrong to murder a person.
There are few objections to the notion that it is wrong to murder a person. Murder is the unlawful taking of someone’s life, while killing is the lawful taking of someone’s life. For just a small sample of the Biblical passages forbidding murder, see Gen. 9:6; Mt. 15:19; 19:18; Mk. 10:19; Lk. 18:20; Jn. 8:44; Acts 3:14; and Rom. 1:28-29; 13:9.

Premise #2: The unborn is a person.
It is this premise which is disputed by many in our culture today. However, the Bible clearly teaches that the unborn is a person due to the following reasons.

Possession of Personal Attributes
First, the unborn possesses personal attributes such as sin and joy. In Psalm 51:5, David says, “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.” In Luke 1:44, “For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.”

Described by Personal Pronouns
Second, the Bible also uses personal pronouns to describe unborn children. Jeremiah 1:5 says, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Matthew 1:20-21 states, “But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.’”

Jesus: A Baby at Conception
Third, regarding the conception of Jesus, Matthew 1:20 says, “But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.’” The fact that the angel tells Joseph that “the Child who has been conceived” is “of the Holy Spirit” indicates that Jesus certainly was a person at the moment of conception.

Called Children
Fourth, the unborn are called children. Luke 1:41 states, “When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (1:44).”

Protected by the same Punishment as for Adults
Fifth, perhaps the strongest argument against abortion from Scripture is the fact that the same punishment is applicable to someone who kills or injures an unborn child as for one who kills or injures an adult. Exodus 21:22-23 states, “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life . . . .” This strongly indicates that the Mosaic Law viewed the unborn as persons worthy of the same protection and rights as adults.

Called by God before Birth
Sixth, the unborn are even called by God before birth. Almost echoing the prophetic commission of Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1:5, Isaiah 49:1 says, “Listen to me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar, the LORD called me from the womb; from the body of my mother He named me.”

Known Personally by God just like any other Person
Seventh, the unborn are known personally and intimately by God in the same way He would know any other person. Describing David, Psalm 139:15-16 says, “My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written; the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.” Describing the prophet Jeremiah, Jeremiah 1:5 says, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Conclusion
The Bible definitely teaches that the unborn are persons because the unborn possess personal attributes, are described by personal pronouns, Jesus is called a child at conception, the unborn are called children, are protected by the same punishment as for adults, are called by God before birth, and are known personally by God just like any other person. Since abortion is murdering a person, abortion is morally wrong (Gen. 9:6; Rom. 1:28-29).

Sources

•Norman Geisler, Systematic Theology.


^that said, see this thread for a unqiue case in which I totally support the move for abortion. Some circumstances are not always black & white. https://www.nairaland.com/245335/woes-catholic-church

Ihedinobi: I'd thought I did or said something that cost me your interest o. Thank God you came back

Hehe...my interest is unfortunately subject to my cerebral weather of the day - and sometimes it rains for days.

Yeah. On this thread. Like you said, there are two now though

Lol. At this rate of multiplication there'll be 3 of you by the end of the year

Oh, I don't know, 7 or 8? Haiti? That country still exists? Anyhow, the average Nigerian is mired in myriad troubles.

Yes oh, Haiti still exists. And if you see some of the things that go on in that country Nigeria will seem like paradise. That is why I kept insisting that the word "suffering" is very relative & subjective. Which is why many people who 'run' abroad find themselves 'running' back home after finding that the grass is not always greener.

I know you'll forgive me na.

Ehen now, what am I your sister for?

The ish is that you guys blend so well into Western cultures and ways that Africa is essentially a novelty to you more often than not. (Sorry I'm saying that.) You get cynical mostly because you've lost touch with the practical realities of the country.

You're right here and also wrong. Its true many of us have 'blended' well into foreign lands - but assimilation into another culture does not prevent you from still carrying a vested interest in homeland - albeit an emotional interest. Or else I wouldn't have bothered visiting naija now. I could've spent my 1month off the coast of Spain in peace & sunshine. And it was a green passport I used to enter the country (the wahala I went thru to get it ehn is another story )

About the "practical realites" aspect - again I defer to you because you live there. But I will insist I have known what these realities are - and that they are not a good enough excuse for much of the decay in the society.

I imagined you had. The Igbo say, "ana amachi ụwa jọọj" (colloquially, "you hide/cover your embarrassments from the world with what meagre display of wealth you have" ).

You're taking style to yab me again ehn? lol. Issall good. I have never been hesitant to divulge my country of origin even when it was an inconvenient truth. Nigerians have a terrible reputation all over the world.

I don't mind your asking. I'm quite open and frank as a person, transparency is a big deal with me, but I've recently taken to protecting my privacy as much as possible. So I'm not able to detail what I'm doing. Suffice to say that I currently have a project on hand that should ultimately help to clean up the Nigerian business environment and culture. Really big deal to me, I assure you, especially seeing it's my own lifeline

Edited

Okay cool. I'm glad you have your hand to the plough and are pushing forward - its more than I am doing or plan to do. My own ambassadorship is casual & when the opportunity presents - but it is always resolute in conviction.

My in-law,

Enigma: A hell of a lot does not mean a majority you know. Those who are corrupt are the more visible, the more able to affect things (than e.g. village dwellers) or even those able to effect change e.g. the 'educated', the politician, the pastor; but that they have control and are more visible etc does not mean they are in the majority.

I will readily concede that bad news always makes the news and good news goes unreported. But ehn...if you're saying that corrupt individuals are in the minority in naija you are on your own oh! Refer to my first (I think) post on this thread on a few experiences I listed. In the few weeks I spent in naija this year, the negative experiences outshine the good about 95%. Granted I was in the mad jungle that is Lagos, but where better to take the national temperature than in the heart itself?

'We speak of that which we know'! In the words of an immortal vintage TV character over here, the person concerned is one that your present interlocutor is in the habit of referring to with the perpendicular pronoun.

Lol see yinglish.

On a serious note, did you see DeepSight's thread? https://www.nairaland.com/1087891/armed-robbery-experience-thoughts-nigerian

No, while I have had my share of engagement with all kind of swindlers etc I am certain you are underestimating the goodness, kindness and generosity side of things. Look, can you believe that even some of the "swindling" is in good spirits and with mutual understanding? I know because I was involved in some of it mysellf as a younger person and all concerned, the 'swindler' and the 'swindled', both knew what was going on and usually laugh about it; as it was in the context of interactions with fellow employees of one organisation, the guys will still buy you a beer while you are all discussing who 'swindled' who.

Now, when I'm home I even allow myself to be a knowing "victim". Just one type of example: you send a little kid on an errand; when s/he comes back you ask him/her for the change from the money you gave him/her; s/he with a knowing smile tells you that she's been asked to come back for the change . . . . .

Lol, I don't think so. If I experienced it in significant fashion I would've factored it into my position on this thread. And at your swindler & swindlee...I like the comical fashion you spun it in...but ehn....another side of me resists. The same thing that didn't allow our host to buy full tank of gas (I mean petrol) several times because the station attendants never have 'change' (infact there was a thread about this in the politics section not long ago). Honestly we can laugh about it but this repeats itself all over the country and people find they cannot even be 'honest' over the tiniest of amounts.

Wetin apostle Paul talk? "a little leaven...". The same habits that small children are cultivating today - when they get into the Senate they'll simply continue.

Nashville: Just some sour losers hating. Life goes on with Obama having another four years after which he will hand over to another democrat. Can't see the Replubicans in the white house for another 8 years.

Probably not if we're to go by history alone, there is usually a turnover in party after 8years...last 6 US presidents:

Obama - Democrat
Bush - Republican
Clinton - Democrat
Bush - Republican (4yr term)
Reagan - Republican
Carter - Democrat

obadiah777: I HOPE YOU HEATHEN BLACK PEOPLE HAVE GUNS SHA. WHITEY IS COMING FOR YOU. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST. WHITES HAVE BEEN TRAINING FOR THIS RACE WAR SECRETLY.

Commot dia jor. You have come with your conspiracies lol

---

Enigma: A few things to consider.
We need to place things in balance and context. I also have to say that, while acknowledging the difficulties and that it would take time, I am also one who still has hope for Nigeria.

and that makes 2!

There is definitely some good in naija - no doubt there. Where I'll disagree is in which direction the percentages skew...or else the country would be better than what it is now.

Enigma: A few things to consider.

4. In Lagos, on one occasion of a visit to Naija, a diasporan's car fell into a ditch because he was not familiar with a particular road and where the gutter met the road; he was in a hopeless situation: but then five or six guys passing by without being asked immediately helped to lift the car out of the gutter and back onto the road. Imediately, the car was out, they dispersed and went on their way not even so much bothered about a mere "thank you"!

LOL where you that diasporan? lol. And for every heart-warming story, I can more than double you with a horror one. What I saw was not pretty at all.

armyofone: Jesoul, where have you been.
I heard iya balogun will be leaving. I like that woman
can't imagine Washington without Nancy Pelosi. A fine politician.

My sister I've been oh how body now? you haven't put the (F) back lol you confused me that day lol. Lol@IyaBalogun ...washington without Pelsoi is like a king's court without its jester

Mrs "you have to pass the bill to find out what's in it"

manny4life: IMO, although I may be wrong because it's on federal level, but on state level and depending on states, when a signature has reached a certain amount, it doesn't really mean anything but it's an indication of interest. What happens next is that the state legislature will review the petition, it will go through FORMAL legislative process, before it's put on a state electoral ballot. After the ballot, the highest YES, the state will adopt it, and it becomes law.

Although, such signatures are often challenged rigorously through the judicial process, CA (ban of gay marriage) is an exemplary one. That case is about 6yrs old, and SCOTUS is yet to rule on the issue. As you can see, this is just a test phase, TONS AND TONS OF LAWSUIT will arise from this. Like I commented on a previous thread, by the time they are done, Obama would have finished his second term.

Well said.

@topic,
25,000 signatures is hardly a proper representation of the opinions of an est. 25 million Texans - infact is a very small percentage. While Texas may be a traditionally republican/conservative state, I think secession is a wee bit extreme...unless I'm out of touch with neo-texan politics - many are quite pissed Obama got re-elected.

@Ihedinobi

sorry for the break in transmission, I got lazy. Anyways, for the sake of expediency, lemme skip to the meatier parts...

Ihedinobi: I live in one of the most backward states in Nigeria in a city whose glory is an old story. About it, someone once said to me that it is foolish to ask after its library since its people don't read. Dire? I am not the one who wouldn't admit that. Is the situation desperate? Lordy, but yes, of course it is. But hopeless? Absolutely not.

My hope is built on reality not on smoke dreams. I have no problems supplying proof.

Understood & appreciated - you're certainly the only one on this thread so that makes you special.

Why don't you pick one country with complexities you consider comparable to Nigeria's and let's compare them. I think that that's the best way to explain what I'm saying.

....then we would get into an endless cycle of "comparing & contrasting" before actually addressing the core issue. Just give me your best estimate - on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the worst possible (economic, healthcare etc) where does the average Nigerian's struggles rank? And if you really want another nation as a standard - use Haiti.

I'm sure I didn't say that. My point is that such viewpoints are usually colored by naivety.

Lol. Are you using style to call me naive? You would have to agree that poor people cannot be happy people for that to stand . This is not to say that 9 out of 10times a poor fellow would not prefer to instead be rich oh.

I got you the first time. I am saying that your opinion might not have taken account of the fact that people are at their best with guests they want to impress. You need to look at a people through their own eyes to correctly appreciate their mentality. While I do not argue that there is nothing in numbers, I do not place much faith in multitudes. The majority aren't always right. What's more, apart from musKeeto probably, the rest of you are essentially visitors to Nigeria. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Perhaps. But you cannot fake some of the smiles I saw - much like you cannot fake the indwelling of the Holyspirit - it radiates with an unmistakable accent. And I'm not a "guest" in the pure sense of the word when it comes to naija. I have lived & breathed life there so I'm not entirely a long-distance analyst. But on the flipside, I will always defer to the opinion of one who is in the thick of it as you are. The stakes are higher for you no doubt.

All ^this being said - what part are you playing directly to effect this hope of change that you have? not trying to be smart but just wondering if it translates to foot-action.

Cheers bro.

My brother,
I don't think there is a "force" keeping you down. What you're going through is what many go through. See this incredible Psalm from the bible about a man in your exact same position:

Psalm 73.
Surely God is good to Isreal and those who are pure in heart. But as for me, my feet had almost slipped; I had nearly lost my foothold. For I envied the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. They have no struggles;their bodies are healthy and strong. They are free from the burdens common to man; they are not plagued by human ills. Therefore pride is their necklace;they clothe themselves with violence. From their callous hearts comes iniquity; the evil conceits of their minds know no limits. They scoff, and speak with malice; in their arrogance they threaten oppression. Their mouths lay claim to heaven,and their tongues take possession of the earth. Therefore their people turn to them and drink up waters in abundance. They say, "How can God know? Does the Most High have knowledge?"

This is what the wicked are like — always carefree, they increase in wealth. Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure; in vain have I washed my hands in innocence. All day long I have been plagued;I have been punished every morning. If I had said, "I will speak thus,"I would have betrayed your children. When I tried to understand all this, it was oppressive to me till I entered the sanctuary of God; then I understood their final destiny. Surely you place them on slippery ground; you cast them down to ruin. How suddenly are they destroyed, completely swept away by terrors! As a dream when one awakes,so when you arise, O Lord,you will despise them as fantasies.

When my heart was grieved and my spirit embittered, I was senseless and ignorant; I was a brute beast before you. Yet I am always with you;you hold me by my right hand. You guide me with your counsel,and afterward you will take me into glory. Whom have I in heaven but you? And earth has nothing I desire besides you. My flesh and my heart may fail,but God is the strength of my heartand my portion forever.

Those who are far from you will perish;you destroy all who are unfaithful to you. But as for me, it is good to be near God.I have made the Sovereign Lord my refuge; I will tell of all your deeds.

It is difficult for us to understand many of these things - but we know that we are striving for an eternal glory that far outweighs the earthly troubles. Your honesty is not in vain. Your crying out to God for your family is not in vain. Keep on doing your best and your family will love & respect you for that. Hold fast even in the face of discouraging times and it will be well with your soul. Try to keep your hands busy with whatever work you can find & you will not go hungry - that is God's promise to you. Spend time reading the psalms and you'll see much of yourself in there and be able to draw some encouragement.

The Sabbath is whatever day you personally choose in your heart...

Romans 14:5
In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. 6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 For we don’t live for ourselves or die for ourselves. 8 If we live, it’s to honor the Lord. And if we die, it’s to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

Ihedinobi...I'm just reminded of that thread...lemme see to it...

wiegraf: Ok. But of course we're back to me disagreeing with you on the nature of the prophecies. They don't look special to me. You have anything concrete to give me which explains why you think them special? A link would suffice of course. Is your reasoning based on your personal spiritual experiences?
thanks

To be honest if you're looking for date or event-specific prophecies a la TB joshua style of "one head-of-state will die in 3months" or "there will be a plane crash before the year is over" etc etc that is not what Jesus was about.

I can't give you one link because you have to look at the body of work (words) of Jesus as recorded in the gospels regarding the end times. Jesus goes from speaking in general terms of "false prophets will arise" to "you will be persecuted, killed because of me etc" to "there will be earthquakes, famines, wars etc" to dotting these 'general' prophecies with more specific ones like "the destruction of the temple" to "the besieging of Jerusalem" to "the sun and moon being darkened, and the heavenly bodies shaken" etc etc.

Some of these we believe have already happened and some are yet to. Not forgetting that to us christians, we do not believe that God is bound or restricted by our linear conception of time - a day for Him is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day - so Moses might as well be crossing the red sea right now.

^I know this might sound like a convenient explanation & 'anyone can predict those' but I don't think its that simple - again hindsight is always 20/20. For me, the dominoes are lined up and falling one after the other, eventually leading to His return - and yes of course, my personal experiences influences my understanding of these things - so yes, my understanding can change or evolve, but I think this position is a generally accepted one in christian circles.

Cheers bro.

[quote author=pres-elect]yeah right perhaps when you were gloating in 2010 about scott brown victory and even took time to snap and post a copy of your ballot paper with the votes on nairaland you were unemployed abi . . . . . abegi . . . take that story to the psychology department [/quote]Lol...compared to my career/work now, yes I was unemployed and didn't have a family to care for either.

why not? you de fear am? let him see it jare. the worst he can do is to hang

Yes I "fear" Tayo with a ton of respect. He's one of the few nlders that I've learnt a great deal from and has inspired me in many ways.

aunty liz is DA BOMB . . . . I love her like aunty pelosi

FINALLY!!!!!Dear Jesoul voted with WISDOM for the wise guy over the romnesia . . . . uh-uh . . . i guess its time for
HOT AIR-RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Your case is hopeless ...I never actually said who I voted for btw, that information stays btw me, my ballot & my hubby lol. We shall see what she does in congress...I already know it won't be more than to carry obama's briefcase to and from the oval office ... sheep only follow, they don't have independent brains of their own.

^basketball & american football.

You sef be careful...I may have to invite you to the court/field someday and teach you a lesson