₦airaland Forum

Image123:
Jo, you don reach here. All these passages do not justify the pastor threatening people's lives.

But it's scripture The point is . The church or a minister has the ability to pronounce judgement on a person as Peter did to Ananias. Especially in cases of those who trouble the church . But the minister will be held still responsible if his action is freshly

TheAgba:
* Why should God think , if He thinks?
Why does God have to think when he knows all?
Malvisguy212, HardMirror, Johnydon22, Olaadegbu, Rossikki, Joagbaje, etc.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The scripture above says it all . God created man not just to look like him but also to function like him.

Psalms 94:9
He that planted the ear, shall he not hear?
he that formed the eye, shall he not see?

It's both . It's a parallel . Same principle works for both dark kingdom and Gods kingdom . But any power outside the name of Jesus is demonic .

naijamakossa:
ok like a woman seeking for a fruit of womb can be classified in the prayer of supplication because she keeps praying till she is pregnant,what about if she pray once with faith and after ten yrs no sign what happens to her faith?

In some matters we address God in prayer

In some matters we address The devil in prayer

In some matters we address The situation in prayer

For the case of the fruit of the womb. For the fact that the word of God has made provision for us. All the woman need do is to accept by making consistent declarations daily that she has her baby. But There are other issues . It may be a demonic case . That require to be cast out. Some women who experience tunes like spirit husband stuff may need a minister to cast it out . .

Goshen360:
Which offering sir? To the new covenant church? There's nothing of such. ..You know better but you're making it look like offering is money. ...no! Offering from old testament was something being offered as substitute for something.

When it says tithes AND offerings in malachi, he was saying money AND money, it means tithes and offerings such as sin offering .... etc as sacrifical fot substitute.

Oga sir , go back o.

naijamakossa:
ok like a woman seeking for a fruit of womb can be classified in the prayer of supplication because she keeps praying till she is pregnant,what about if she pray once with faith and after ten yrs no sign what happens to her faith?

The word of God had made provision for fruit of the womb. Such a woman need to claim what is hers consistently . It's not a case to pray to God for. There are matters we talk to God about,there are matters we speak to the situation and there are matters we talk to the devil and demons in rebuke and authority .

openmine:
....You start getting emotional because you know u have been exposed for what you are a; tithe collector

I'm a tither. Period. When you guys get cornered you start attacks . And calling supporters . Sit down and discuss. Shey you want truth . Don't try to scatter ground. But if you insist . I will kindly exit. Opari

So you have obviously ran out out steam that quick...i knew you wud display this side of you

Merry go round steam . Okay let's be rounding .

Without a priesthood,your advocacy for the law lacks substance...

You're only being manipulative. I believe any honest person should have seen the picture . But you're obviously trying to woo sympathy of you cheered givers .

Sir joagbaje...after "principle",you will soon enter "revelations"
Do you carry out the procedures of the burnt offering as prescribed in the Law?
Have you been physically circumcised?
Do you Offer only unblemished animals?
Do you carry out the procedures of the guilt and sin offerings?
Do you bring meal offerings as prescribed in the Law of Moses?
Do you burn incense every day?
Do you bring two additional lambs as burnt offerings on the Sabbath?
Do you eat the Passover lamb with unleavened bread and bitter herbs on the night of the 14th of Nisan?
Until you have done dese and the rest of the 613 mosaic law...ur support for the law is weak and outdated!

Ask paul. Not me . I only quoted his writings. If he says the law is holy,law is good.

It even worse...no thanks to you and ur likes who deceive and manipulate believers who no longer study their bible to find out how inconsistent ur flawed tithe principles are....

Really where have I spoken against bible study. You are rather the one speaking your own teaching . I asked you . Which bible did they study in the early church

How can a law have a foundation for wrong and right when the author of the law said it was weak and useless...

Is paul the author . The law can't make a man righteous .you have to be righteous by faith first. Works follow .

[quotes]Come ohh...which scriptures are you studying where "some" laws were set aside and "others"(which are applicable to you as tithe advocate) was left unfulfilled..?[/quote]Sacrifices and offerings are principles . Paul talked about offerings and sacrifices . But you worship God without an offering. Which scripture are you reading . What is offering. It simply mean what you offer. But your new doctrine seem to have clouded the eye you ought to have used to see Even what is plain.

From the scriptures above,did you see wives submit to your wives ?
Or did you see where it was written that husbands respect your husbands ?
Hope you are okay?

If you're honest you will answer direct question. All these run run . How long will it go. Let's hit the nail on issues and move to other issues

Where were you wen God was describing such acts in Romans 1:26-27

This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. The males in the same way also left natural relations with females and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty of their error.

On what ground is paul speaking . Is he a law maker ? What of the gay Christians who love God? Why is the love nature not telling them.

the action of declaring or making righteous in the sight of God.

Have I said anything contrary?

The man must be a Believer or not...Or is he a ghost?
Answer the question and stop been evasive

Ask proper question and I will give proper response

Well you just did...
U just evaded the question again

See who is forming victim...
A pot calling a kettle black....Always the victim

You're always the pot and kettle . I can remember being rude and insultive . Beside if I talk about it, it's not because of me . It's about the quality of your spirit and state . It's part of my call to correct or admonish . All these agbero abusive thing you guys do here . I just wonder what bible you read. It's a concern in a pun
If forum . We can debate issues as gentle men. State our points . Agree or disagree . But abusive? Count me out. By bible says other wise. So don't think . Let's Abuse jo. E go pain am. When I exit such thread . It's bible wisdom.

Your itching ear or eyes will not let you see where i carefully explained to you...

Thank you

Did you fully understand the message of grace the very first time you became born again?

Sure . Maybe you can tell us more

I have explained and explained and explained with scriptures about the reasons why he used the mosaic law to teach them....If you cant see it then your case is irredeemable...

Is it by force? Your explanation is unscriptural.

Who is Jo?
I don't know who is Jo....
Are you denying ur mentor?

If you want to discuss pastors fine. Name your church , name your pastor . Outline your doctrine ,let's discuss them .but be civilic.

Is Israel still blind?

Until the rapture , isreal remain blind this is the times of the Gentiles .The salvation of isreal will be a national salvation

Romans 11:25-26
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Yes you have...and its preposterous to think a minister of the gospel will erroneously say some laws are still applicable...Amazing

They a Godly principles . That why paul used them for illustrations

Even in ur ignorance u still remain cocky...

OUCH!!!!. . .

Thats why what paul did was unique....though flawed...but he won souls for Christ!

Firstly he didn't win any Jew by trying to compromise his faith. None. He was arrested . His grace was for the Gentiles. Secondly he wasn't quoting the law for the unsaved . He was quoting the law for his church members dear. He wasn't trying to win souls . They've been won.

The mandate given to paul ministry by God was different.

Untrue

For the sake of the gospel,he wanted to win souls for christ...

They were already Christians . Church in Rome ,church in Ephesus . Not Alhaji in Ephesus

So he ventured into unfriendly countries where Judaism was dominant!
We can as well conclude that paul had to blend into his environment to ensure the message was preached!

Don't create stuff

Will the forever remain babes?
The answer is no...unless their purpose of being born again was due to selfish motives...

Babes are turn in daily except the church is not evangelical

Why do u always play the victim wen u have been checkmated...

You don't have to be rude to checkmate . If I'm wrong I will admit . I am not you. I was against Ola in the other thread on JOSEPH prince but later I looked at it. He made some good point and I admired he was right . Has he won? I don't care . For me truth has won . But the way you go about debate and discussion it will be very difficult for you to admit wrong . Because of so much wrong attitude you display .

The love nature inside of me enables me to keep writing and destroying dose deceptive pillars that you and other disappointing ministers of the gospel have used to chain the belief system of believers....

Terrorist and robbers have good reasons .also that doesn't make you right. Especially when your post lack spiritual fruit in attitude and words.

2 Timothy 2:24-25
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth

Anything outside this is human Lust . Anger belongs to fools according to scriptures . So calm down .

I want people to look back at this thread in 5 or 6 years to come as a guide or reference 2 evaluate what ever they are practicing...

Nice , I should add double scriptures for viewers in my next post

I have posted it more than 5 times on previous posts of mine and you still ask that i post it again....what manner of man are you?

Keep posting . For me and viewers . I will do the same . Difficult so,Eti,Es to even respond because I don't remember what I'm responding to.

Why did you ignore this?

Mistake in copy and paste . The modified one didn't go. I will check it

4C2215131:
You don't seem to understand me.

Have you seen the movie 'The Exorcist'? The original one, that is part 1 (1973 or so). If you have, there was a scene when a reverend Father asked the possessed girl who was tied to her bed why she couldnt untie herself seeing she claimed she was the devil. She replied (that is the demon/devil in her) by saying that would be too vulgar a display of power. I'm sure you know what that means. My statement was a should I say... parallel.

Kindly forgive my comprehension

4C2215131:
My coming on board will be too vulgar a display of intellectual prowess taking departure off the Bible as openmine and others are occupying your time judiciously. Should you have a brother-in-arms then, the duel will be better matched and I just might opt in. For now, you're out-numbered by your opponents who are not just clanging cymbals but formidable opponents displaying much fecundity with respect to the word.

Okay then . If your Christianity is vulgarity . Kindly watch from grand stand lest thou sin.

4C2215131:
I advise you desist from making comebacks on this thread. Why? your stance will be thoroughly rubbished (if posts from certain folks here are anything to go by as they are more detailed, intellectual and educative).

Do yourself a favour and leave with your dignity intact.

You've been called upon as a cheer leader . It doesn't change truth . Come on board as long as you put your flesh under .

openmine:
Now to the over-flogged issue at hand....I have actually provided you with detailed scriptures as to why Paul had to uphold the "law of moses"...

It wasn't relevant to your cause. Paul rather became a Jew to the Gentiles . You're shooting yourself in the foot there

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 shows that his intentions were to use the law of Moses as a front to lead people to christ...

More shooting in the foot . Yet this is the law you condemn

This intent was made clearer in Acts 28:23 where he convinced the Roman audience about Christ using the "law and the prophets"
This proves why he was in support of the mosaic law when he spoke to the roman audience but vehemently spoke against it in his letter to the Galatians...

So what is your point then. If the apostle to the gentles could be so proud to use the law why are you demonising the law then? We are all viewing the scriptures before our eyes here

And i have also proven to you with scriptures that the law has been nullified and annulled because it was outdated,weak and useless...
(Hebrews 7:18;Galatians 3:23-25;Ephesians 2:14-18)
Still wondering why u keep defending a law that God has nullified and ousted...Is it becos you have ulterior motives?
Or you need a base in the mosaic law to justify your payment of tithes?

Ask paul. Shey na our apostle .

Since you are insistent on the law being in existence or relevant,who is the priest that presides over the mosaic law..?

The scriptures are Gods scriptures .period . It's not about order of priest .

Again if Paul stated in Romans 7:7 that he supports the law,it simply means circumcision,burnt offerings,heave offerings are still relevant to the believer...t .

But I showed you scriptures to read for yourself . As much as you try to label me a law advocate . The principles are my point . You don't condemn spiritual principles because they are mentioned in the law. There are shadows in the law and there are practical principles . The kingdom principles . Christ

it also means Christ death was in vain...which in many ways rubbishes Paul's entire grace gospel..

Here we go round and round again. It can only rubbish the blood of christ if we seek be made righteous by them instead of faith.

What to you is justification?

To be made right with God.

If the law was useless in terms of being made right with God,why are the practices still relevant according to you?

It's a foundation for right and wrong . Kingdom principles are there . And you have to know what is done away and what is still applicable .

If we can not be made right by the law,it simply means its contents and practices are worthless and useless...and that's becos it can not make you right before God no matter how much you uphold it....

Let's take gay marriage for example . Is right or wrong ?
....

Its apparent that you are confused the word called justification....

Kindly give a definition

So i ask who was the law made for..?
Believers or unbelievers?

For man .

Verse 9 and 10 answers that for you but you intentionally ignored 9 and 10 just to front 8 to justify ur defense .

I won't do that

Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answers...
Of course Not....and its simply becos of the LOVE nature of Christ that has been imputed into me...
I can not kill because God's nature of LOVE is in me...

Yet you can rude and speak guile and the nature in you does not address it

I can not dishonor my Parents because of the LOVE nature of God in me...
The love of God has been embedded in my mind and written in my heart..(Hebrews 8:10)

How come the nature in the believers in Ephesus couldn't address them and Paul had to use the law as reference .

What of the Roman church ? He couldn't use the new nature and the holyghost to teach them about

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

How come it's only you who doesn't need word of exhortation?

Funny enough your Oga and mentor Pastor chris oyakilome made dis same submission of mine in one of his programmes....
Which in a way makes me surprised when you ask....its either you want me to say it or u know it but prefer not to say it...

Deal with jo and the bible

When a law lacks the power of justification,what then remains of the law?....its as good as dead and buried...stop beating a dead horse!

Oga....there is nothing futuristic about that prophesy..
..it has already happened..
The priesthood of Jesus has been established...
The new covenant has been made...the new law has established!
God has imputed the nature of Love in our hearts and written it in our hearts...

The salvation of isreal is for a whole nation and its futuristic after tribulation. Israel is still blinded .

Wrong...Your righteousness can never be attained based on the law of moses....

Have I said otherwise ?

If indeed that particular law as you have quoted was perfect enough to enable man love God genuinely,why was there still need for another law?

The problem was man . It was man that lack the ability to do the law.

You don't need the law to stop stealing,you don't need the law to stop lying,you don't need the law to stop idol worship...
When you Love God based on ur convictions,his very nature takes root on you....you wont be able to steal,lie or worship idols because of the love nature of God imputed in you...

In that case we don't even need a bible nor exhortation nor a pastor . you see am?

That's my point. They were not under Jewish law. The only reason paul will quote the Jewish law for them is because . That's the scripture . It's found

You're still shooting yourself in the foot. It's because it's the word of God . And the law reveal God standing and principle .the law is holy . It's wrong use of it that may be wrong

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Because of what?
You still haven't answered the question...are they out side the law or under the law?

I don't get you . Kindly explain

I will keep going over it again and again until it sinks into mind about what Paul's intentions were...Unfortunately you choose not to see it...
Paul stated in the scripture in clear terms why he used the mosaic law to teach various audience,it was for the SAKE OF THE GOSPEL (1 Corinthians 9:23)

He didn't become a gentile . He rather became a Jew to reach the gentile . It's conflict . It doesn't add up. He can't quote the law he condemned according to you

Paul stated in the scripture in clear terms why he used the mosaic law to teach various audience,it was for the SAKE OF THE GOSPEL (1 Corinthians 9:23)

NOW I DO ALL THESE FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL so I may become a partner in its benefits. (1 Corinthians 9:23)
What part do you not understand about the grammar?

That's your application. To the Jew I understand but Gentiles ? Forget it. He quoted the law because it's Gods word.

To you it doesn't make sense....u are not alone...even peter also had an issue with Paul's teachings....He used methods that were not applicable...but he had a target and motive...which was to win soul for the sake of the gospel!

Then if that's the case ,a lady can sleep with a man to bring him to church abi

Wrong its not....study Acts 15
Babies will one day grow to become matured.....they will never remain babes forever!

You're wrong sir . There will always be babes in the body of christ . People converted daily .

Where were ur eyes when i was quoting that very scripture....If you cant read the scriptures am quoting....how wud u be able to understand?

You don't have to be rude. The love nature you claim leads you has what is called coutessy . We are not agbero

U have a bible...right?
Study Hebrews 7:12-13;8:7

If you can't post it here for us to read or at least type it out kindly forget it.

I made an illustration...
Just to buttress my point where Paul said, "I have become ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE, so that I may by EVERY POSSIBLE MEANS SAVE SOME."
I may not use a stripper example....but am reading meanings into Paul's admission....he was willing to do what ever it took to ensure the gospel was preached...Thats just what his thoughts were...so don't blame him for such "actions" and don't blame me for understanding his plight


The church i attend only offers free-will collections....
Which is not mandatory or imposed...
Giving for a project or cause is based on the leading of your spirit...so one in church is subjecting anyone to either give a particular amount or impose it on anyone to give...
So maybe the assembly you attend may coercing and manipulative....different stokes for different folks


Uncle the difference is that my mine has scripture backing...urs is based on ur "revelation" whether true or false..


Did you intentionally omit "tithes" and replaced it with "instructed offering" from ur list of giving?



I disagree....it was not an instruction...it was a word of encouragement to the Corinthians which was based on wat they had and not what dey did not have....
Please go back and study 2 Corinthians 8 and study it slowly....[/quote]

Firstly salvation is by faith in christ not about what a man has . Secondly JESUS is not against wealth . He is against covetousness . If you have money , use it for God. The man flying jet ,is he flying it to watch soccer or preach the gospel.

openmine:
Thats totally different....during the time of the law,collections and offerings where primarily hinged on what you get out of it....and failure to offer some thing negated you from God.....This is just another reason why the law never placed the giver with a choice to give from a free mind devoid of compulsion or hesitation....
So according to the loop-sided law,If you pay,You get God's blessings,if you don't pay,God seizes to bless you...this was also synonymous with "tithe payment"!
But under a new covenant,giving is based on LOVE and not compulsion or imposition...hence the law made nothing perfect!

Oh so What do you say to these ?

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Maybe paul has become a manipulator here or talking to babes according to you.

After carefully searching through....it was apparent that some jews intended forcing the newly converted believer to observe the law and the prophets...

My question was simple . Let me make is clearer . What scripture were they studying in the early church. Was it Old Testament or New Testament ?

Could you be so kind to place the scripture where Paul told timothy to study THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS

He told Timothy to pay attention to reading and also told him to study. My question was . What scripture was he to read ?

Okay...we should also carry out heave and wave offerings too...cos its part of the holy scriptures..
Wat about burnt offerings?
Physical Circumcision is also part of the holy scripture....
Now since they are holy scriptures according to you...How many have you so far observed?

That's where knowledge of scriptures comes in. To know what christ has fulfilled and what principles still applicable .

So we can as well conclude...that "burnt offerings" are "spiritual principles"....Physical circumcision is also a spiritual principle right?
Remember these practices were existed before the law like tithes according to Joagbaje....hence they are still valid right?

Oh sure the principle still applicable . Because it's kingdom principle . Offerings ,sacrifices ,tithes will always be kingdom principles

Philippians 4:18
But I have all things, and abound. I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the things that came from you, a sweet-smelling fragrance, an acceptable and well-pleasing sacrifice to God.

Hebrews 13:15
Through him, then, let us offer up a sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of lips which make confession to his name.

Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Please who receives the other 90% of ur income after you have offered 10% to your supposed priest.....according to that scripture?

It's my choice what I use it for .

openmine:
Mr Joagbaje,Both contents and obedience of the law have been abolished because it was weak and useless....
Ok you are implying the "obedience part" is the one abolished while the "contents" remain....

The law is the law of God . It's a foundation of rightness and wrong. What is condemned is that we are not justified by obedience to it . We are justified by faith . But the law is foundation of what is right and what is wrong. It reveals Gods mind. Roman 7:7 is clear enough

Romans 7:7
What then do we conclude? Is the Law identical with sin? Certainly not! Nevertheless, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another].

Can't you see it here ? The only reason Paul would quote the law was simply because of the principle there . The law is not evil . But it is wrong to feel or seek to be made righteous by just obeying it.

Are you reading your very words?
Then whats the use of the "contents of the law" if we are not going to obey them....
Its the obedience part that ensures that contents are adhered to....

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Why use "contents of the law" that are weak and useless?

It is only useles in the area of justification .as long as it's not used to be made right with God or seek salvation on its own. The righteous demand of the law is fulfilled in christ.

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Will I commit murder ? Will I dishonor my parents? Hmmm....let me think....
In other words,You are suggesting that a believer needs the law of Moses in order not to commit murder?..

Give a straight answer pls. Now that the law is done away with according to you. Will you now commit murder or dishonor parents?

Let me just believe you have not come across this scripture.....

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Even going by the scripture you quoted you're admitting to my point . love has fulfilled what law ?. Evil law ?..

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

The only fault of the law is not that the content is evil but lack the power of justification . It doesn't take away the fact that the law is good.

[color=purple]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. . . .
I will put my laws into their minds,. . . . . And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest

Even thou it's a future prophecy for the nation of isreal but by law of double reference still applicable to the church. Going by the scripture you quoted . We don't need teachers as ministry gift . God puts his new nature in us. But we still need knowledge .

Now before u start asking which law God wud be putting into their minds and hearts....,

It's simply the ability to fulfill righteous demand of the law by the power of the new nature

LOVE fulfilled ALL the requirements of the LAW....So when next you think of killing some one...Think about love...

Love has always been there from Old Testament .

Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Why would paul be saying steal no more. Keep away from idols . Lie not.

What was the belief systems of the Romans?
were they under the law or out side the law?

That's my point. They were not under Jewish law. The only reason paul will quote the Jewish law for them is because . That's the scripture . It's foundation .

why did he say "because of the Jews,i became a jew to win over the jew"...."for the sake of those under the law,i became one under the law,though am not under the law,but i do so to win over those who are under the law......"

We've done this over and over. It's not applicable . There no justified reason to mention a Jewish law to Romans . They shouldn't have known it existed Sef. But paul used it because it's the law of God . It's foundation . As much as they don't seek justification by it.

Those were part of Paul's very words in the scripture 1 Corinthians 9:19-23....
I have explained to you Paul's reason behind using the law as a tool to teach the Romans about christ....
Unfortunately,You have chosen to ignore that scripture for reasons best known to you and yet you keep doing a repetition and as well sounding like a broken record....
Again....i will show you those scriptures again and hope u lay aside ur obvious pride and study those scriptures....
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 and Acts 28

I did saw it but it's not apllicable . If it were to Jews only . I will agree with you. But Gentiles and Jewish law don't marry .

You will understand why Paul (not God) had to use the ousted law of Moses to teach people about Christ...

It doesn't make sense.

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

The audience Paul was teaching or preaching to were not yet MATURED enough to grasp the gospel of grace...hence he used the law to convince them about Christ.

That's your personal assumption but it doesn't make spiritual sense . There will always be baby Christian in every congregation till jesus come

If the law of Moses was perfect or needed or had relevant contents like you opined,Why did God order for a change of the law?

Pls quote specific passage for context purpose .

illustration bro....that's what Paul had to do....you can question his pattern or means but not his commitment to win souls for the sake of the gospel...

So you endorse it if a former striper does stripping as a way of evangelism?

You and i know it was contained in the law to make OFFERINGS!
It was a law requirement....which is the same as an imposition!

Very funny. Do you attend a church? If you do does your pastor give instructions. If he does. Is it imposition ? Like giving for a project or something

It just shows you the loop-sided nature of the law....which God in his immerse wisdom and unspeakable love corrected by setting aside the old and establishing the new

Brother it's the same principle .

What Paul did was not different from what transpired in Acts 4:32-35 where believers sold their lands and brought the money equivalent to help those that were in NEED (GENEROSITY)....

It's always been in the kingdom of God . There have always been different kinds of givings. Free will offering , instructed offering . Vows ,alms .

same gesture was displayed by the Macedonians whom Paul admonished the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 8:1-7 to emulate and also learn the grace of giving from the Macedonians....
Just as the law of Moses differs from the law of grace....hence GENEROSITY differs from OFFERINGS...!

Paul as a pastor gave intruction to his churches period . It's left for them how much they gave . According to their prosperity. Same thing moses did . Those who don't have gold gave silver down to ram skin.

MrPresident1:
The end of the wicked will be on shown on TV, we will all watch it. Stay tuned to CNN, BBC, AlJazeera, NTA, AIT, Radio Nigeria, Sahara Reporters, Nairaland.

And who will show it? Rather CNN will report that aliens have taken people from the earth. There is enough Hollywood movies produced by Satan to prepare the world not to believe in the rapture . Rather alien capture

Was there any medical prove she was drugged?

There are different kinds of prayers and each kinds of prayers has its own principles . The kind of prayer to be adopted depends on what you're dealing with . There is prayer of faith ,prayer of supplication , prayer or agreement ,prayer of intercession ,prayer of worship ,prayer of praise , prayer of intercession Etc .

The rule of one kind of prayer maybe contrary in another kind of prayer . Just as basket ball rule is contrary in football . For example . In a prayer of faith you only ask once and you believe it is done . If you pray again about it ,it will become umbelief but in the prayer of supplication or intercession you are allowed to prayer over and over until Victory. A book by pastor chris HOW TO PRAY EFFECTIVELY will be of help

openmine:
Yes the law was a guide to lead us to a superior law....the law of christ
The law then WAS our guide,our school master,until chrst was revealed...Now that christ has been revealed and faith has been established,we are no longer under the dictates or supervisions of the law(Galatians 3:23-25)....and thats because of the law of christ which is grace based...

I agree

A little illustration will be all u need to understand this transition....
Lets say that am travelling to Ekiti state from bayelsa state...the bus stops me at ondo state,and i get into another bus heading to Ekiti state...
The bus that conveyed me from bayelsa to ondo state has completed its duty ....while i take a bus heading to ekiti from ondo state....which is my destination!

There are 2 things I will want you to understand. There's different between the content of the law and obedience to the law. You kept trying to give impression as though I'm advocating obedience to the law. Let me take it that you're doing it innocently . I've told you my stand on the law over and over and over . And it's sad each time you're making a case concerning law round and round. We are no longer under bondage to the law . But at the same time that doesn't condemn the content of the law. Because Many of Gods principles are contained in the law. Such as honoring your parents. Will you commit murder ? Will you dishonor parents Because the law is no longer a master no. Because despite the fact that these content are in the law . The are not wrong in themselves because they reveal Gods principles. Helping the poor ,keeping away from idol Etc. These are revelation of Gods mind. We do it because they are kingdom principle . The law reveals Gods mind ,standard of judgement,fairness ,love Etc. But because the people were not regenerated yet they lack the ability to obey the law and secondly they couldn't attain perfection or righteousness by it. Because the best man among them still has unrighteousness as nature . The law is the law of God .

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You are under a new covenant presided by a high priest Jesus christ...hence you are to follow instructions based on the laws of christ and not the obsolete

The law still gave the standard of righteness and wrong. Without the law you would not have known wrong or sin. The law revealed sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[/quote]

Paul didnt only teach the gentiles,he also taught the romans and jews.....

[color=red]2 Timothy 1:11
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

He was apostles to the Gentiles . But that's not our point now . Let's not be distracted.

The question is why would paul used an obsolete law to teach a new people. It's simple it's the law of God!

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good

....if you studied the book of Acts very well,you wud have observed tha paul even went to countries where judaism was a norm...he even went as far as behaving like them....he even burnt insense and partook in burnt offering in order for him to use the very abolished laws of moses to preach about the gospel of christ....

That's different . He sent himself ,he had to use fleshly way to win them which can never work. Even though That should have even made more sense to show identification with the Jews by compromising his faith. But what we are dealing with was Paul using the law to teach Gods principle to Gentiles . Let's humble ourselves . It's because the principles are based on truth. Kingdom principles . Law or no law . It should have been a crime to use what was evil to illustrate good

He knew he was a believer of the gospel and not subjected to the laws of moses...yet he used the laws of moses(judaism) as means to reach out and convince them about the gospel of the cross....

We can liken paul to a female believer who temporarily converted to a prostitute just so that she cud convince dose indulging in such practices to stop by teaching them the gospel of christ

We don't need o former night club stripper to continue to strip so as to lure men to christ.

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews.

That would have been excellent if he was dealing with Jews. But now he became a Jew to the Gentiles!

I wasn't expecting a compliment or any thing different from an unrepentant tither....

It's takes humility to admit wrong. I just showed you where paul got the principle from because you never knew that the love of God was not a New Testament revelation . I wish you could study the old without biase

When giving is forced or imposed on a person...it seizes to be giving....

So when God asked the people to come with offering , that is imposition right? We are talking about God. Yet Paul asked the churches to lay money aside weekly as relief .and that is love . What's the difference ?

For each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give.... NOT RELUCTANTLY OR UNDER COMPULSION ... for God loves a GENEROUS GIVER

And God told moses only to collect from those who give it willingly . Is that not the same thing? They only collected from those who gave willingly Just as Gideon was asked to send back those who were not willing to follow him. He accepted those who came . God has never taken from man his will power. You have the right to obey or disobey God.

Very simply....they were still baby christians.....wud you feed a new born child with akpu or garri?
According to 2 peters 1:2;
Grace and peace be mulltiplied to you in abundance through ur knowledge of God and of jesus our lord

Really? Can I ask you a honest question? What bible did they have in the early church? If you carefully search . It's the law and the prophets.

When paul told Timothy to study ,. What scriptures ? THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS .

In Pauls personal study why he was asking for books and parchment to read. What was it LAW AND PROPHETS. let's not become holier than God . All scriptures are given by God inspiration . They are holy scriptures .

....
Now since you have maintained a little bit of consistency on ur pre-law tithe,I have questions to challenge ur pre-law tithe conviction...
On wat covenant does your pre-law tithe base it foundation on?

Tithing existed before the law. As every other spiritual principle . Like prayer , sacrifice , fasting offerings Etc . The fact that the law talks about them does not make the law the originator. The law is only for references . And the fact that the law was done away doesn't take away kingdom principles . There no place God or christ ever spoke against tithing

Since you claim ur tithe was based on Abraham's apparent gesture towards king Melchizedek.wat corresponding scripture on ur pre-law tithes (aside Genesis 14:18-21) can you use to substantiate ur tithe beliefs?

If according to you,Abraham "tithed",was he under any "instruction" from God to offer king Melchizedek the spoils of war?[/quote]He is a prophet and he has Gods revelations . The principle was revealed to him.

Finally....lets say you tithe using ur supposed Abraham tithe as a guide...After offering the priest ur tenth,will you give ur king or president the remaining 90?

Let me tell you something . Tithing is the least of our givings. I may sound boastful I would have mentioned some things . My givings far exceed my tithing . Personal giving. And also giving for my company and business corporately. People give cars lands houses which far exceed their tithes as they were inspired .

annunaki2:
You are not only a shameless barefaced liar but a monumental disgrace to the christian community. I can't believe you have the audacity to write what you wrote here after it was proven beyond all reasonable doubt that your so called miracle was fake and you even admitted it your folly. That apart you also demonstrated your lack of integrity by refusing to live up to your word and pay Sir John the 500k you promised after bragging on this forum. You really should be hanging your head in shame instead of coming back to this forum disgrace yourself and rubbish the tiny little reputation you have left.

I'm a man of integrity and everything was transparent , a guy comes to your church and testify he was healed . Will you blame preacher for that? Secondly he was invited for interviews he couldn't show up, effort was made to get his number through his pastor , he was reached on Facebook and on whatsapp because the video that support his testimony couldn't be found the only one that looks like it was sent to him first as a screen shot on Facebook to confirm if he was the one being prayed for . He wasn't sure . Same was sent to his pastor . Later a video clip was sent to him on whatsapp . He finally said he watched the clip and that was him .
Only for us to discover that he didn't watched the clip, and I asked for his medical test result . I spent over a hundred thousand to send him from state to state to look for the doctors who had tested him before whom he claimed got Tranfered . We had to get one of his records from the hospital through his pastor. Why would I go through all these if I have something to hide . If someone have to stage a miracle is there no better way? But the name of christ is enough for me . No need of miracle staging . I have documented video testimony . If I have the time I will upload them . I finallly asked his pastor to take him for fresh test . Until we didn't hear from him again . If he got healed or not. But the only thing his pastor concluded was that maybe he came to give that testimony . Just to get at the Fiancee who left him because he was tested Hiv positive. Because the church does medical and pregnancy test before marriage

EMILO2STAY:
. Ohh!! So now pastors are tithe givers instead of collectors,

Oh sure. Christ is our high priest to whom we pay our tithes. Before a man can be Given a pastoral responsibility he must have been a faithful tither. And he must have a good job from where he puts money into the work. Some pastor use their business income to pay for venues until the church grows to be able to handle it from church purse .

but you cite scriptures to support the collection of tithes by pastors such as 1 corinth 9:13-14

I cited scriptures to answer a post. I was dealing with parralle.

which is not even talking about tithe

Ministers in the terbernacle recieve through what comes in from tithes and offering . That passage was clear enough. Same goes for New Testament ministers . By principle the provision is their. They may receive from what comes in if there need be. But most pastors don't need it because in most churches ecxept General overseer . Pastors have their jobs and businesses . Some are bankers ,oil workers .business men ,lecturers etc. they pay their tithes like every other person. It's bloggers like you guys that give different ideas but it doesn't change the truth.

You see I mavel when you say we should talk scriptures because you seem blind to it but good in twisting it,[/quote]You don't need to be rude . Rather ask question for clarification. It's just bible discussion you don't need to sin because of me

I have seen that you have a stone for a heart choosing to fleece your congregation

They will rather laugh at your ignorance

You are the same christ embassy pastor that was busted right on this forum and exposed for claiming to have healed a man with H.I.V AIDS. I am sorry for the people you pastor. Continue defending your business interest on nairaland when ever the topic appears... Cotinue in your stone hearted nature your end is near.

But that's your lie. Sir john will not say that. I'm anointed of God . Healinggs are wrought through me. I can send video clips upon video clips . I don't need to stage any miracle for christ. His name is powerful enough.

openmine:

With ALL pleasure.....

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness Hebrews 7:18 ESV

So the previous command is annulled because it was weak and unprofitable Hebrews 7:18 (Holman christian standard bible)


For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. Hebrews 7:18 King James version

18 The old rule is now ended because it was weak and worthless. Hebrews 7:18 ERV

Do you want more translations?
Please let me know....
Surprisingly,Its right there in your bible and i have quoted this scripture more than 10 times...on different posts....
Are you implying that you don't follow up my scripture quotes?




And i provided you with a corresponding rebuttal scripture to counter that....
And it was just to prove that Paul was intentionally observing the law of Moses to win souls in rome....



The Highlighted verse of Acts corresponds to an earlier scripture where Paul highlighted his intents for the sake of the gospel

Hear him;


You sud know that just a scripture cannot stand on their own....You need a corresponding scripture to interpret the former...

Now you asked a question if i knew better than Paul.....Well...At least you can see from the highlighted scriptures that he knew what he was doing...Unfortunately,You were carried away by his support for the law of moses without considering that he was doing so to persuade the Romans about the gospel of christ and not because he Supported an expired,weak and useless law...Paul knew better...do you??




The fulfillment of the law by christ implies that you no longer need to be under the supervision of the law....
Really?
Who told you tithe was no fulfilled?
was tithing not part of the law of Moses?
I have quoted scriptures to either convince or show you that Christ priesthood does not receive tithes or gifts or make sacrifices.....
I have also shown u using scriptures on why the priesthood of Christ is far superior than that of Melchizedek....
But unfortunately you ignored them....using Melchizedek as ur standard...
Tell me did Melchizedek offer himself as an atoning sacrifice for all men?
Did Melchizedek die for ur sins?
Was there a sworn oath on king Melchizedek priesthood like that of Christ?
I know why you keep insisting on Melchizedek.....just to substantiate ur weak tithe claims??
Don't you worry...Many believers are now finding out the truth about the obvious deception behind tithe doctrine...And so many souls will be delivered by this apparent slavery perpetuated by respected ministers of the Gospel....The truth never hides!!!




Dishonesty?
Please be specific and highlight where you don't comprehend.....So that i can make it clearer for you.....
The law lacks justification because its no longer relevant....The finished work on the cross ensured that it stayed that way...
Its duty or intents or relevance ended the day Christ was revealed.....
Trying to UN-nullify an ousted law just so that you can justify ur tithe beliefs only shows that you are the dishonest one....



The only dishonest and deceptive one is you....

Christ ended the law so that everyone who believes in him is made right with God. Romans 10:4 ERV

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for every one who believes Romans 10:4 NIV

I don't know a clearer and better illustration that Romans 10:4...
So where is the dishonesty coming from?
If you want me to explain the scripture for you to comprehend...no wahala...just ask....and i will explain with corresponding scriptures....afterall,scriptures mast match scriptures....!!!



Well Your statements and beliefs from ur earlier posts betray wat u just put up....Or are you trying to say you don't understand wat it means to be justified..?





This is not my theory but based on the intelligence of Paul....
I even went as far as showing you scriptures and corresponding scriptures to buttress Paul's intents which was for the sake of the gospel...
You obviously ignored those scriptures and now you call it my own theory ?
Hilarious
I have shown you with scriptures why Paul used the condemned laws...
But you intentionally chose to ignore them sighting the honoring of ur parents scriptures...
If you really want to learn or find out why Paul used a condemned law to teach the gospel,
Then study Acts 28 and 1 Corinthians 9:19 - 23
And if possible humbly study the entire book of Acts....to understand what Paul did what he had to do!
As for Malachi 3:10,Please don't go there cos you yourself said ur tithe is pre-law ...."abi u wan take am join threaten ur congregation?"



Ohh very easy....go back to your first post on this thread and start looking...you will find it out...but when you do please don't take it off ohhh
I cant do that for you....its ur post not mine
As per harassing you....I did not Ohh ...am telling you wat u explicitly displayed....




You were obviously the one moving in circles non-stop all along and dats because you know you have been cornered....
Your obvious statements(previous and present) proves my point that your pre-law tithes has little or no bearing....without Malachi 3:8 - 10
U keep mentioning principles and kingdom principles...don't these so called principles have a scripture statement or is it part of ur imagination?
Okay lets say you were preaching to an individual and he inquires about a scripture to substantiate ur pre-law tithe...what will be ur answer?
You will start explaining why the kingdom principles cant be found in the scriptures or you will eventually run to Mr Malachi....?

If I have time I may look at whatever you wrote if there's need worth responding to .

Candour:
@openmine, Compare the bold above with what joagbaje and his oga teach their flocks in their most important literature after the bible(for some of them, you could argue that ROR is more important than the bible)

Joagbaje says you give tithe as voluntary but his most holy ROR by his daddy says actually you PAY tithe and its a MUST otherwise you're a robber.

Jo can't change. Not until oyaks repents from the fraud of tithe demands.

If you want to talk to opaks talk to opaks if you want to talk to jo talk to jo. As long as you're willing to dwell on scripture no problem. But if you want to do agbero style of debate count me out. You can eat your tithe

OLAADEGBU:
Anyone who sins habitually is sinner living in the old nature and needs to repent.

A christian who sin is not a sinner . It's a man who has nature of sin that is a sinner.

When a Christian slips into the flesh and sins are you saying that the Holy Spirit would let go?

I may not 100% agree with Joseph prince . I'm yet to fully understand his perspective going over the matter again. The Holy Spirit do point our fault to us. He even rebukes but not condemn .

But the Christian can slip into the sin nature (old man) by living in the flesh and thereby fall into a specific sin.That is for the obedient Christian who allows God's word to abide in them.

Sin is not about "them " we all do err one way or the other. The man that gossip should not point finger to the man who keeps malice

. For God to chastise us He has to point out the specific sins we have committed so it is wrong to say that the Holy Spirit does not point out sins.

I agree. He can rebuke us on the inside and tell you "the way you spoke to that man was rude go back and apologies " Sure he can't point our faults to us .

If the issue of our sin is not with God how then will you explain Jesus' warning to believers below?

"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Revelation 2:5).

The point is . God has made provision for our sin for cleansing . When a christian sins . All he needs do is repent and move on. He is still God righteousness and that's How God sees him. He doesn't need to run from God in fear or con,demnation.

openmine:
If it was not evil like you said,why was it labelled weak and useless by God?
Do you know better than God?

Kindly quote where it says the law was useless thanks

If the law was good like you are alluding

At least I showed you the scripture where paul say so . Do you know better than paul ? I also asked you to show where it says the law is evil . I'm waiting for your response .

to,why are you not practicing them?

The aspect of the law fulfilled by christ can not be undone. But tithing has no fulfillment except that christ is now the one who recieve our tune in the order of Melchizedek

The same Paul said in Romans 10:4, "that Christ is the end of the law to those who believe".....

I'm seeing some dishonesty here . Let me just take it as a Mistake for now. I already told you the only problem with the law is that it lacks the power of justification. Now you're quoting a scripture which says excactly that but you cut away that part . What are you really trying to achieve ?

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.same paul the apostle said

Christ is the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOSNESS . But you tried to make the scripture say otherwise . See I don't waste my time with dishonest people.but let me still give you benefit of doubt .

Ephesians 2:14-15
"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances,
that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace"

The message is very clear . Justification ,righteousness ( peace with God ) cannot come by the law .

Paul was speaking to an audience that had not fully under stood the gospel of Jesus based on grace!
Hence he attempted interchanging both the law of Christ and the obviously nullified law of Moses just for the sake of the gospel !
But that does not in any way prove he was in support of the laws of Moses....

Come on now how does this theory of yours explain this scripture . .

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promisewink
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

What gospel will paul be preaching by using a condemned law? It doesn't add up try again.

If we go by this theory of yours which appears to be double standard Then why are you getting mad at the quoting Malachi to support tithe ?

Now who is the one getting emotional and personal now?
Yes you did say so wen u first referred ur self as a levite of our time using 1 Corinthians 9:13-14.....
I always knew u wud deny ur very own words.....even wen it was obvious that u said so....
i will keep asking you this question until i get an answer from you....

Can you kindly quote where I refereed to myself as a Levite. Thanks and if you cannot . Kindly stop harassing me.

james 2:10....if you keep the entire laws of Moses but stumble on one,you are as guilty of breaking all of it....
In other words,All the laws of Moses are important and none is higher or more relevant than the other....

I still don't know why you go in this circles . I tried to make you understand my point. If I do what is contained in the law . I'm not not doing it because the law say so . I do it because it's a principle inGods kingdom . But the principles of God existed before the law came . So the coming and passing of the law doesn't change constant principles

As it regards ur question whether i give offerings,
I don't because offering is an obsolete pattern of giving....


The new pattern is based on generosity....which covers all and sundry
have u studied how the early Christians gave??

[quote]Why did Paul vehemently condemn its practices in Galatians?
Now why was he seeking to justify the same law he condemned before a roman audience?
Was it becos of the romans level of understanding?!!

Because the wanted to be justified by law ..I have gone over this with you over and overrrrr.

openmine:
Notice that i omitted alms,tithe and offerings.....that's because such gestures were part of the nullified laws of moses....you cannot give what is required or what is imposed on you.....that's slavery and never based on love which replaced the laws of moses Romans 13:8-10

The law was a guide . Instructions in law are not slavery . What of the instructions paul gave . Will you say the instructions paul gave to give money was slavery?
The instruction not to lie was slavery?
The instruction not to defraud ,steal etc are slavery? Why didn't he leave every man to their conscience . And the love of God shed abroad ? I will appreciate your response.

U sud know that wen Paul spoke to a particular audience in the scriptures,he had to use the laws of Moses as a guide.....in fact,he actually used the laws of Moses to preach Christ to his audience ....(Ref:Acts 28:23)
Paul knew that particular audience were still neck-deep into the laws of Moses....so directly teaching them the gospel of Christ wud have made no sense to them due to their level of understanding....
Paul did everything to ensure that the gospel of Christ was taught whether by the laws of Moses or any other means necessary...
Please Read....

Can I ask you a question? Are you aware that paul was a minister to the Gentiles? Are you aware that the Ephesians were not Jews? So don't say paul was dealing with those who are neck deep in the law. Look at this scripture again .

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Why on earth will an apostle of the grace of God be quoting the law to a people who were never under the law. Because there are principles of God kindgom revealed there.

i hope u now understand why Paul kept using the laws of Moses...Its was for the sake of the gospel to be preached....So wen next you come across a scripture where he used the laws of Moses,know that it was for the sake of the gospel and not becos he believed in the law !!!

You're explanation is very weak here pls

Genuine giving or generosity as practiced by the early believers were done for EVERYONE and out of LOVE (Ref: Acts 4: 32 - 37)
Now tell me if the one practiced by the early believers did not make sense to you?
But that's a choice for you....and you are free to do urs based on ur supposed revelations or principle that have no scripture inclinations !!
If your giving is not based on 2 Corinthians 9:7,then am afraid you don't really understand what it means to be generous because generosity covers ALL AND SUNDRY
This is a christ-like kind of giving which is genuine,love-based and self-less!
And this was the same kind of giving that the early believers practiced,same giving that the believers in Macedonia practiced,same giving that paul the apostle admonished the Corinthians to emulate from the Macedonians....same giving that was explicitly written in 2 corinthians 9:7.

There's no new way of giving . People have always been giving by love for God.

Exodus 25:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.

Paul was only quoting what was already revealed in the Old Testament . A principle . I just hope my point are getting clearer to you .even if you don't agree but understand my perspective first .

Please tell me,do you need a law for you to give to the poor?
do you need a principle for you to give for a project in church?
Do you need a law to offer support for the minister or pastor of the assembly you attend?
If you,as a believer,who has the love of Christ in you,wud u need a principle or law to compel or subject you to give willingly as you have decided in your heart?

Why is paul giving instruction to the churches? What happen to "christ in you"

Paul knew that particular audience were still neck-deep into the laws of Moses....so directly teaching them the gospel of Christ wud have made no sense to them....

These were Gentiles churches not even proselytes. The law is a guide of right and wrong . But remember that my conviction on tithing is not based on the law. I only got into law issue because you asked questions of the law.

openmine:
You were the one who quoted 1 Corinthians 9: 13-14 to buttress ur collection of tithes,

Stop addressing as such . I'm a tither not collector.

after informing you that dose "tithes" were part of a nullified law which u agreed,
you den deceptively decided to go on a memory lane saying it was a pre-law tithe ......after explaining to you that you can not hold on to a pre-law tithe and still want to use the practices of a nullified law of moses,You now ask that am being personal with you?
You see that's the issue i have with you and ur likes,Instead of responding to the question,you start moving

Kindly read the entire thread. From the opening post . My foundation had been abrahamic faith . But if you ask me question under the law I will answer you . That doesn't mean I practice law. It's just a bible discussion. Secondly the law is not evil . There are content in the law that are based on spiritual principles . Paul said the law was good . It's wrong use that is not right .

Romans 7:12 (TLB)
But still, you see, the law itself was wholly right and good.

why do u still seek to be paid with the tithe that was part of . . .

Did I ever tell you I get paid by tithe? Stop these silly remarks . If you can't focus on the bible and topic I may stop responding to you.

Really? So you are saying that the lord God who said that the law was obsolete and nullified didn't know what he was saying or doing right?
Since you are loosely using that word principles,please answer the following questions...
Do you carry out the procedures of the burnt offering as prescribed in the Law?
Have you been physically circumcised?
Do you Offer only unblemished animals?
Do you carry out the procedures of the guilt and sin offerings?
Do you bring meal offerings as prescribed in the Law of Moses?
Do you burn incense every day?
Do you bring two additional lambs as burnt offerings on the Sabbath?
Do you eat the Passover lamb with unleavened bread and bitter herbs on the night of the 14th of Nisan? I hope you know these are "principles" contained in the laws of Moses.....so do you observe dese principles?
If your answers to this questions are negative,then your conviction or practice of tithes,in my opinion,is WRONG!

Are you deliberately going round or pretending not to understand my point? Ok let me give a closer illustration. Nigeria had series of. constitutions. Clifford constitution,Macpherzon and Littleton constitution right ? Now we have new constitution . Under the former constitution murder was A crime ,stealing was a crime . But the new constitution made changes as regards rights ,slave trade but murder and stealing still remain a crime even though there's change of law because based on universal principle they will always be wrong. The fact that there a new constitution does not change the opinion against murder and secondly if we don't commit murder it's not because Macpherzon constitution said so it's because it's universally wrong . As much as we don't live by it . Doesn't make all its content wrong . So don't ask me about incense burning , wave offering or heave offering . I am not a law advocate .what christ has fulfilled is done away such as . Blood sacrifice etc

Prayers and fasting are not only scriptural,its a way of the christian life....you can not communicate with the father without prayers...its part of our lifestyle as believers...or are you equating tithes with prayers and fasting??

Precisely these are all spiritual principles . Tithes ,offering , alms , honor for parents ,right living etc they all have their benefit . Principles cut across dispensations. They are constant . I ask you a question once . Do you give offering ?

Sir,let me answer you using the very words of Hebrew 7,......
If the law was not evil ,why was it labelled obsolete ?
If the law was not wrong ,why was it declared weak and useless according to Hebrews 7:18?
If some of the laws were perfect like u r alluding,why did God replace it with another law?

Where' did it say the law was evil? Kindly quote

Romans 7:12-14
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

It's wrong use of the law that is wrong. As much as certain truths of Gods kingdom are revealed there . Seeking justification by the works of the law is what is condemned . The law can't make one perfect

..

openmine:

Sir its now obvious that you don't seem to have any verse to backup ur "deceptive" claims (please pardon my use of that description cos am astonished by wat you just put up)...hence ur defense holds no strength...

You're not pardoned . It's still an insult . Control yourself. And excercise fruit. Just tell me you don't agree where you don't agree.

why do u still seek to be paid with the tithe that was part of a nullified law rather than the pre-law tithe which you claim to practice....? Does that make spiritual sense to you?

I never told you I recieve such . So stop getting personal with me. Focus on the topic with your bible .

hence am only seeing support for those who teach the gospel....i don't see tithes and offerings like u claim because these are terms from the law of moses,which both of us have agreed has been nullified? right?

Principles are forever. Either they exist in the law ,pre law or after the law.

Sir why did u omit the burnt from the offering....u sud have included both....so in other words,since burnt offerings were pre-law like you insinuated for tithes,does that mean burnt offerings are permitted or better still do you carry out burnt offerings to God since according to you,its a pre-law and a spiritual principle? [quote]Burnt offering was a sin offering which Jesus has fulfilled . Let me ask you .do you believe in giving offering to God?

[quote]I have a question for you sir....was Abraham obligated or instructed by God to offer a tenth of the war spoils to king Melchizedek?

Most probably ,what does it matter. Tithing is a principle discovered by revelation . Just as any sacred discovery. If you do it , you gain the benefit ,if you don't you miss the benefit. Is prayer an obligation ? Is fasting an obligation ?

Again i ask u sir....do u carry out burnt offerings or do u carry out circumcision ...cos both are pre-laws just like ur pre-law tithes ...?

Principles are constant . They may be seen in the law or before the law. They a spiritual secrets revealed through revelations. So some principles in the law are still applicable

Ohh really?
So based on ur OWN scriptures,God replaced the others but not tithes ....Going by ur own thesis,God somehow erroneously left out tithes but gave replacements to the others?

Not everything in the law is wrong . Is the law evil ? There are principles not the law which are kingdom principles . They are not done away even though the law is done away because they are spiritual principle.

Pls Sir Joagbaje,wud u be kind enuff to get me scriptures that buttress ur wild and outrageous claims?
Until you are able to provide scriptures to that effect,i consider ur claims highly deceptive and manipulative......

Have you wondered why paul quote from Old Testament? For example : honor thy father . Why would he quote law for people who are not under the law. Why ?

Because it's a principle . To honor to care and to respect parents. Isaac had to make his son cook for him do that he could bless him. . Moses gave a law on honoring parents . The Jews nullified it Jesus came along and addressed it. And he rebuked them for hindering people from taking care of parents

Mark 7:11
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

Why . It's a spiritual principle .thats why You find paul addressing same issue .

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Long life doesn't come by prayer for it . There a principle . Honor your parents. Either old or New Testament . It's a kingdom principle

According to your pastor and mentor,Pastor chris,(hope am not mistaken) in one of his "question and answer series" said..... "tithe is not giving,tithe is a requirement ...you don't give tithes,you pay tithes".......
Going by his admission,tithe is tithe and giving is giving.....you can not give what is required...

You have a choice . Every principle carry grace and blessing when applied . If you pray you get the benefit , if you fast ,give alms ,tithe you get the benefit and the grace such Carry . If you don't do it you miss the benefit and grace it carries.

I give based on 2 Corinthians 8 and 2 Corinthians 9:7.....which is paul encouraged the Corinthians to practice,calling it the "gift of giving"(2 Corinthians 8:1-12)
This is wat you sud be teaching ur listeners or in the assembly....about the "gift of giving" and giving as "you have decided in ur heart"(2 Corinthians 9:7)
Not a failed entity called tithes that only drags 'fresh' believers away from God.....

It's your opinion but it can't be imposed on others . But you must know that there are different kinds of giving in Gods kingdom .
Giving of Offering
Giving of tithe,
Giving of Alms
Giving to parents (honor)
Giving to your prophet or MOG
Giving for projects in Gods house .

interestingly ,The scripture you quoted in 2corinthians only dealt with just one of these giving but We must do all these giving . It's not a standard to cover every giving . It was a project before the church they were raising money for relief . It's just an aspect of giving . That's not offering ,that's not tithe . That's not to cover for giving to the pastor or alms to the poor etc .One giving does not nulify the other . One giving does not cover for the others

Tell me what i haven't heard from you oga Joagbaje.....So now you have now reversed ur earlier stance about the law of moses...i tot you said tithe was pre-law and any other tithe has been nullified along with the laws of moses....
You have suddenly brought it back to life after realizing that ur acclaimed pre-law tithe had no base or foundation to stand on....hence,you simply had to UN-nullify the laws of moses to use as ur base to tithe calling it an eternal principle ....Incredible!!!

When we do things contained in the law , it's because they are kingdom principles not because the law say so.it could have been revealed in the law though . If I don't commit murder it's because it's a principle not because the law say so.

Sir what did u just say?
both old and new covenants remain? chisos....
Okay.....please nah i need scriptures from you to back dese preposterous claims....so according to you,the old covenant that has been nullified and set aside still remains?
May God have mercy on you sir for manipulating his very words just for u to justify tithes ...haaaaaaaaaaaa

Firstly I forgive your insults . It's your level of understanding ... For the scriptures I quoted one earlier . And if you study carefully you will see paul in several occasion quoting from the law. Isn't it funny that a man who seem to condemn the deed of the law is quoting the law . And the funniest part was that he quoted it even to Gentiles who were never under the law.

Abraham's faith as sud be practiced by believers is not hinged on his meeting and sharing of the war spoils with king Melchizedek and the king of sodom ....
its was based on Abraham's unalloyed conviction of God even when God had not yet fulfilled what was promised to him...he still stood firm and staggered not....thats the kind of faith God requires from believers....it wasnt based on his lifestyle or his acts which u are forcefully holding unto just defend tithes....

What of Jacob tithing? was it war spoil? Why tenth why not 5% only God knows the mystery behind it

Christ priesthood was not setup to receive or offer gifts cos it was based on better promises and a mediating bridge between God and man...not to collect tithes according to Oga Joagbaje scriptures....chai

I don't need to argue with you about which is higher....i will allow scriptures to lecture u....cos it was based on an oath that the jesus christ was made a high priest

That will be highly appreciate if you allow scripture to speak for itself .

If these scriptures does not open ur eyes about which priesthood is higher,nothing else will.....

Don't be too full of your opinion. And make post with humility , you may just be wrong . So have that at the back of your mind .I'm a tither and I've done this from child . With strong conviction .

Then stop equating or referring to yourself as a levite (parallel or trapezium )

Where did I equate myself to Levites . Did they have what I have in christ?

MuttleyLaff:
translations that have ''income from your herb gardens'' or ''you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs''

Income from herbs still refers to money. They gave money as tithe .

Tithing the one commanded and made obligatory to the Isralotes was based on husbandry and nothing else
It is only if you cultivate the land or breed animals that you give tithes on increase from cultivating the land or breeding animals.
Artisans, like Jesus was a carpenter or cabinetmaker, didnt qualify to give tithes on their skilled craft works which might be woodwork, wooden furniture, decorative arts, clothing, jewellery etcetera

It's your opinion Where does scripture say so? Even if we have to adopt your assumption we are not Tithing based on mosaic law.

It had nothing to do with God used agricultural term because they were a nation of agric by default
Though money was in existence, when this kind of tithing, which the Israelites were commanded to obey, the reasons among others, why God asked for tithe were:

They gave tithes and offering based on things used for service in the terbernacke and temple . Other things that can't be used there are converted to money . For example . Unclean animals like dog ,horse etc cannot be brought to the house of God as tithe or offerings . Such is converted to money called redemption.

Abraham's tithe and the Israelites tithing are two different things

Beautiful , that tells you that you don't look at tithe issue from one narrow perspective. For example . The reson Abel gave first fruit was different from the reason Isreal gave first fruit . But one thing is clear . There is what is called first fruit . Same thing hi for offering ,tithes and any other sacred act of worship

What?! A pastor is not a collector of tithes? What a mistaken belief

A pastor is rather a number one tither and giver. Some of you just create funny idea of who a pastor is. Firstly a pastor is a christian . He has his own job or business at least 90% of pastors in redeem ,winners CEC . Have their jobs as bankers ,oil workers . Business men etc. one of the criterial to send a man out to pastor is that he has a good job. I said in the other thread that of of CEC pastors was the highest paid in chevron in the whole of Africa or west Africa . His millions are rather going into the work of ministry . The Pastor gives tithes and offerings like every other Christian . Church money is not the pastors money . Every ministry has their financial structure . On staff salary ,church maintainance ,rentals . And in few cases allowance for the pastor if he is on full time work. When a pastor has so many churches under him and lay pastoring many not give the work enough attention he may be required to resign from his job and go into full time ministry . It's inly on that ground he may recieve allowance or salary . All these internet picture some of you paint of who a pastor is make one laugh.

... I will respond to other post later

EMILO2STAY:
it is your pretence that has got me mad, there is no need to be gentle in this matter because you pastors that are supposed to tend the flock are fleecing them instead.

You don't need to get into a sin because you're mad at my belief. Firstly I have right to what I believe as much as you do. Why I'm I not getti MAD. The fruit of the spirit according to scripture should have hold on you.

Secondly , I will appreciate you address me as a poster and not a pastor. Whatever I am outside Nairaland should not be an issue in a discussion. So that we can have proper focus in a biblical discussion. I see all these personal attacks as mere manipulations. The bible is enough to speak .

Thirdly being a pastor is a hinorable responsibility. As much as many of you here have tried to Rubish that call. A pastor is not a tithe collector . A pastor is rather a tithe giver . Most pastors have their jobs and businesses . They are not in ministry for any gain. Rather the give more than the congregations most times . One of our pastors on CEC was the highest paid black man in chevron in the whole of Africa of west Africa . He wasn't taking any support for pastoring . He gives in millions to Gods work. Until recently he had to go into full time pastoring because of his increased responsibilities . So get your perspective right . If I'm talking about Tithing . It's based on conviction and that opinion should be respected . Without all these manipulations . Let's talk scriptures . If you don't agree with my view . Don't hurl . When I see people coming with personal attack . I stop responding to such person. They are not worth my time .

MuttleyLaff:
And you conveniently completely chose to use the translations with ''income from your herb gardens''

So what translation do you endorse then?

The bible categorically points to husbandry and nothing else.

Tithe is based on income. God used agricultural term because they were a nation of agric by default . Was ABRAHAM tithe based on agriculture? Tithe is tenth of income,gain,profit as a principle .

Acts 7:48 - "However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:

It's not a New Testament revelation. He never dwelt in buildings . He told David same thing .

1 Corinthians 3:16 - Do you not know that you are God's Sanctuary, and that the Spirit of God has His home within you?

1 Corinthians 3:9 - For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

Not needed.

The Levites were mandated to collect tithes given because they had no inheritance, and so that food be in the house for the Levites who were responsible for the upkeep of this physical and made made built temple.

What they receive was not only for levite consumption. They were like managers . What they received was for the running of the work in he temple and their welfare is gotten there also.

God doesnt live in houses built by men anymore but now lives within you

He never lived in a building . He told David same thing .

Pastors have no biblical mandate or authorisation to receive tithe for the following few reasons
1) The physical temple has been destroyed, and its destruction at 70 AD put an end to tithe giving

ABRAHAM didn't require a physical temple to tithe . Only a high priest was required .we are followers of Abraham faith .

2) Pastors are not Levites

ABRAHAM had no levite

3) Pastors has inheritances

Church money doesn't belong to pastor . Christ is our high priest . A pastor is not a collector of tithes. He is rather a tither himself. Pastoring is only a responsibility. Most pastors have their jobs . As bankers , lawyers business men etc. but few pastors who by the reason of their responsibility have to give full attention to the ministry work are the only one who get support or allowances in the ministry . Bank money does not belong to bank manager . He is only a steward . That's same thing with ministry .

If faith gets you into trouble . Then it's a good trouble ,because it's only for a moment