₦airaland Forum

nuclearboy:
Basically then, Joagbaje, you come on NL, call everybody a babyteeth when you feel like, tell us everyone must speak with tongues when the Apostle Paul asked if it was all that did so, tell us adam was bisexual (having both s.exual organs) until God removed Eve from him, ask us if magic exists (even when the Bible says it does) etc etc etc and expect people to accept your lies.You know , It is very evident.

what lies are you talking about? What evidence?There are no lies.You are the one lying against truth.

So you then, have right and can insult us all and deliberately misquote the Bible to propagate heresies but when called what Jesus HIMSELF called your type in His days, you say we are full of junk.

I didnt insult ,I only respond to people according to their posts. If someone is ignorant and arrogant and If I say that that thing is childish, It is not an insult.

What was Jesus full of when He called the Pharisees "White washed Sepulchres"? What was Jesus full of when He grabbed a whip and beat people who had turned the Temple into a business center? What was Paul full of when he rebuked Peter?

Are you Jesus? Jesus was an Apostle ordained of God . Paul was an Apostle ordained of God. You dont even know God! and you try to function as an Apostle.

Heb 5:4
And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. {receive: or, take unto himself}

You see the blunders your ignorant is causing you. Why would Paul ask Timothy not to rebuke and elder.

Your problem is you don't have a self! A man's self is the part of him that thinks, decides and acts. You have given oversight function of your life to another human and thus a radio could be considered your better- at least, it can be turned off. You are "yaks yaps unlimited"!

Thanks for the complement.

The sermons I want to hear are the following

[1] why your pastor chris fries his hair (and possibly brain) when the Bible tells even women to cloth themselves not with vanity but modesty.

It is not your business what a man does with his air. It is not even God's business. It is your business what you do to your hair. I dont need to question you for using vaseline or palm oil on yours!. There is no relivant scritures to your claim. What a hyposcricy. Women could use relaxer but men cant. Hair no be hair. If God no vex for woman , why e go vex for man.

[2] the one explaining why its always CE in the news for fraud, setting up fake healings etc and why I should submit myself to such lies when they push so many to crime and error

It is not true, Its just that people like you that have bad belle for CEC will use the press against us. How many crimes are commited daily in Nigeria by people, nobody talks about their churches, no one cares to know, But if its a member of CEC. They will put pastor Chris picture in front Page. "CEC member This and that" We are not moved by such. It is a mark of success to be talked about.Has pastor Chris ever taught that crime is right? But rather he teaches against such. The fact a member of a church did wrong does not condemn the pastor. Jesus did not have perfect congregation either. Will blame him for judas ,peter, thomas , james and john etc for their errors. You judge What a man teaches and proffess. And you should judge the doctrine by the word not by your feeling and religiosity plus ignorance .

[3] the one explaining the heresies you spout here e.g. the Apostles of Christ were wrong AND Adam used to "sleep" with himself before God cut him into two.

Image 123 also has observed your craftiness in twisting peoples posts to incite others. Im not bothered about that. I only contributed to a post , and quoted what some other schools of thought said. It was not my teaching nor conviction.

Dude, you have so much stress on your back that a Camel wouldn't stand under the weight you carry. Self righteous postulations don't help you - I have given examples of where Jesus behaved exactly as I do (in word and deed though I didn't whip you yet).

And I also told you you dont have the right to do what you are doing by making ridicle of the body of christ.

Please give an example of where He lied like you or faked healings or kabbashed idiocy or selectively answered questions that suited Him alone.

He faked healing, When he opened the blind eyes.
He kabbashed in idiocy when he groaned in the spirit .

He was a dupe because people said he was. He was herectic because ipeople said he was.But If he was justified then Im aquited of your false alegation

@ VALIDATOR
You dont understand the genesis of the matter, but sirjohn does. I wasnt talking about miracles through pastor chris but through his children and his children children.

Pastor chris's miracles are verifiable. and they wont be on air if they have not been verified. We have a new programme "Atmsphere of  faith" which NBC had verified the testimonies. Remember thsame NBC banned miracles on Nigerian TV stations. For them to allow healing testimonies to be aired in Atmosphere of Faith. It was verified and proven authentic. If not NBC wont waste time to slam their hammer.

Igwe.:
yeah, as Christians, we all know that going to heaven or hell depends on the state of one's soul just before he/she dies.
Now, if i may ask, how would you react if you died and made it to heaven and saw some individuals in heaven?

secondly, what type of individuals would make you react like that?

For me, I would feel cheated to see guys with more than one wife in heaven

Polygamy is not a sin. So get ready to meet many polygamist like king David and solomon there. Besides in heaven ,there is so much purity that you wont have the ability to feel jealous of another person.

InesQor:
Just take the offering basket and pass it to the next person.
The very fact that you are bothered about it means that you have a heart to give. As far as God sees, you have given.

For every one that desire to give there is always a seed to sow. ofcourse ive been there when i found out i didnt have an offering. I dropped my watch in the bag! one other occasion , i asked a friend to bail me out, " ill pay you back". We give by faith. But if your faith cant carry, no problem. there should be no guilt or condemnation

The fact that he is bothered about it does not mean he has given. He has not given an offering. If you are determined to give , there is always a seed to sow.

2Co 9:10
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness
(KJV)

This is why I think the idea of passing offering baskets is a wrong idea. There should be an offering basket in a corner where you can drop your offering before or after service, if you have an offering.

It is wrong to criticise church system by your feeling and not by the word.

Jesus had a bag

[quote][/quote]

Sir John.

He said he has medical report. I will try get a copy and post but this is their numbers .
Mother :Mrs Ebiye Ogionwo 07031066994
Son Bro Emmanuel Ogionwo 07066982847.
The son got healed of leg ulcer of two years which had defied medical treatment. Call the mother call the son . See the doctor if need be. Jesus heals every day. I still have another HIV case with medical report. I will try contact this lady.

babaearly:
When i was a wof christian, i was made to understand i dont have to work for success, i have to declare it with my mouth and the thing will come to pass.
Now i know for me thats not how its going, so i want to ask, is success something to work at? or just declare it with your mouth and it will come to pass? 

it's either the wider that taught you didn't teach you right or you didn't hear him well. The truth there is that the only price that has to be paid is the blood of Jesus . You don't have to pay any other price. You work out your salvation and success . That is not To pay a price. And there is a difference between working out your salvation and working for your salvation. God word teaches against sloughtfulness. You guys just don't understand this word of faith thing.

nuclearboy:
@Joagbaje AGAIN:

Can you imagine a better description for you than "your god is your stomach" and "your mind is on earthly things"? And as I always tell you, I read the Bible not ROR so you cannot confuse me like your acolytes. Compare what the Bible says to the lie you tried to pass off here. And of course, you're hoping I don't know what it says and Image123's idiotic out of scripture testimony will help your cause. How does "follow good example" become "FOLLOW MAN"?
LIAR. THIEF! Son of his tummy!

our boy has gone nuclear again! The problem is no matter how nice you try to be in pretence. The maggots and junks you have inside will Still come out. That is why it is hard for you to make a post without abuses and insults. You simply need to be filled with the holyghost. He will clean you up and tame your tongue. You can't be filled with the spirit and use your tongue to speak guile.You believe so much in James and I think you should take his advice.

James 3:9-14
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet[ water] and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so[ can] no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. 13 Who[ is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.


There's a powerful teaching by pastor Chris "Love Dimesion" I will recomend for you. I can send you a copy if you desire.

There is no price to pay for success. Jesus had paid the price brada!

SirJohn:
And lest I forget Joagbaje you still owe me one story, you were gonna send me X-Rays of a little boy, remember? I'm still waiting or dont you want any of your members to be $3,000 richer?

X-ray was not done initially I enquired how they got to know about the hole, They said that was what the doctor said. So I didnt bother to do an xtray again since there was none done before. The child is healed , walking and running arround. I can give you the woman's number . You can hear her testimony. I didnt bother raising the issue with you because the proof i relied on wasnt there. We record healings and miracles weekly in many of our churches.

There is another one today of of leg ulcer of two years. I will confirm the medical record if there is any. I will send the guy's number and tommorow you can interview him.

nuclearboy:
You've studied the Bible "WELL" and you believe in it. But the Bible says "there is Magic" and even gives you an example and here you are on NL, (a supposed pastor) asking IS MAGIC REAL?

Then you say the above in response to [color=#990000]There is no spirituality or any metaphysical factor in performing magic. Just tricks.
So tricks are more like it than the Bible, ko? I think the problem is that you don't consider who you claim to be when you post and then show haughtiness and self-righteousness to try to recover which just worsens your position. Did you read the Bible verse I gave you about requirements for a Bishop?

your attempts to ridicle me have not been very successful. I have freedom to research on anything. I have even research about juju worshippers . Shakers cult, Islam and other world religion. My study is on the magic shows of this post modern society.

Go back and look at the part that talks of "the way the outside world looks at him"

"Him"who? . If you're talking about pastor chris. The world celebrates him. He is a blessing to this generation and the body of christ . The best bible teacher Ive seen. Try get some tapes . His messages will wash you up. And all these junks and maggots you vommit sometimes will be purged from you. You'll be a clean vessel.

Cos me I like you. But you seem not to like youself

I love you jare.

SirJohn:
Joagbaje, I've once told you that I sometimes admire your approach compared to some other Oyaks adherants on this forum.
I'm amazed you came up with this thread plus you're trying to convince us about the trickery in magic. well, some of us knew this a long time ago. what I find startling though is how you find it difficult to believe that Oyaks healing school employs the same trickery in magic.
How about something more interesting to research on, try doing a research on 'faith healing' you'd be amazed what you find out.
Cheers!

Jesus Christ is thesame yesterday , today and forever. Jesus is still healing. You are talking about Oyakhilome. If you see the miracles and healing God is performing through his children, you will leave oyakhilome alone. The healing school is on presently. Some of us have individuals we sent there , I will furnish the story soon

Image123:
^
I'm rarely suprised, but it suprises me how you pass off to some as a christian. Thank God I saw you before your fruits. Keep your 'complements', they're not helping you.

This is hard meen!. But its a hard truth anyway . The fruit of the spirit is Love ,Joy blablalaaa,

nuclearboy:
Joagaje:

Why do you like telling such obvious lies?

You say Paul, Phinemon and Timothy were Pastors - OVER WHICH SPECIFIC FLOCK? BTW, Paul himself said "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." 1 Tim 2:7. A PREACHER and an APOSTLE. Where is "Pastor" and which was his flock?

Php 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me,

1Co 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

what lies? have I lied? Paul had the 5 fold ministry like Jesus. He was a Prophet,Pastor, Apostle, Teacher and Evangelist. His ministry reflected all these brada! Timothy, philemon and Titus were pastors. Bible scholar calls those books Pastoral Epistles.Because they were written to Pastors.

Image 123 gave a simple answer for your enlightenment by making reference to the letters to the Ministers in the churches which were refered to as Angel. Angelos means minister in charge of those churches.

You say Paul was elder, Timothy was Sub-Elder, and there were junior sub-sub elders? Scriptural backing please

The scripture was clear. Dont think you will waste my time on ABCD MATTERS. Between Paul and Timothy who is senior? Between Timothy and the elders he ordained who is senior? If you answer the question honestly you got your answer.

and DO NOT for one moment think you are yapping at one of your shakakakakatttamumble people. Give Scripture that relates to the issue not "rebuke not an elder" which had NO bearing on what we are talking about above.

Stop getting over excited,

Do you remember I once asked you if Moses was not your ideal so you too could feel only you had direct access to God? Now you prove me right when you say OT God spoke to Moses. Can you show same in NT? This is a NEW PRIESTHOOD with only ONE HIGHPRIEST, Jesus the Christ! Any other senior priest? show me from the Bible! But you say each tribe had a leader in Israel? Which tribe are you from, Joagbaje? Oh I forgot, levite (tithes)!

Christ is highpriest does not mean he gets threatened by other leaders. James was chairman or pastor of the Jerusalem church. Paul was head of the Gentile ministry. Timothy He called several people into offices and he demands others or the subordinates should submit to them.

Elders rule in Christianity,

So long as they rule under a pastor and not try to rule over the pastor. Im not aware Paul had elders rulling him!.But rather he had elders under him. Im not aware timothy had elders ruling him , but ruling under him and helping out just as moses had Mirian Aaron and other leaders from the tribes ruling under him. It is a principle in both OT and NT. The Apostles of Christ were not rulling him either. They were not political presure group in the church. Im sure you will like to occupy such position. "Lets call the pastor to order" " who will raise the motion"?

So why is it only money and ways to get more that is your wahala?

What wahala? Stop getting personal ,Deal with Topic. Did I ever say I have problem with money? or wahala as you said. Money is my servant and it will continue to serve me and the cause of the gospel.

Whist we are still on the book of Timothy, it says in Chapter 3, verse 7 "Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." when speaking of a "bishop". You and your pastor himself - where is your good report without, with the fruit of agabas, mabells, jeri curls, healing schools, "take it and fall down then get up to fall again", training people to receive blessings of God etc that the earth is assaulted with daily? and with your twisted interpretations of the Bible.

Where is the good fruit of Jesus Christ without.With the likes of Judas the thief, Thomas the umbeliever, Peter the liar! who denied him!. James and john who wanted to call fire on innocent people. and the rest who were contending who will be the greatest?

Come on answer me!

If Jesus was justified for have raised people who had some coma, Pastor Chris is to be commended.
And whats your problem with Jerry curl? . Besides, Pastor Chris doesnt do Jerry curls. Does that look like Jerry curls to you? Jerry curls is messy and achaic for men. Shower cap and all that "coming to america stuff". Its mostly used by primary school headmistress! Look more closely next time.

Nuclearboy

nuclearboy:
Joagaje:

Why do you like telling such obvious lies?

You say Paul, Phinemon and Timothy were Pastors - OVER WHICH SPECIFIC FLOCK? BTW, Paul himself said "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." 1 Tim 2:7. A PREACHER and an APOSTLE. Where is "Pastor" and which was his flock?

Php 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me,

1Co 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

what lies? have I lied? Paul had the 5 fold ministry like Jesus. He was a Prophet,Pastor, Apostle, Teacher and Evangelist. His ministry reflected all these brada! Timothy, philemon and Titus were pastors. Bible scholar calls  those books Pastoral Epistles.Because they were written to  Pastors.

Image 123 gave a simple answer for your enlightenment by making reference to the letters to the Ministers in the churches  which were refered to as Angel. Angelos means minister in charge of those churches.

You say Paul was elder, Timothy was Sub-Elder, and there were junior sub-sub elders?   Scriptural backing please

The scripture was clear. Dont think you will waste my time on ABCD MATTERS.  Between Paul and Timothy who is senior? Between Timothy and the elders he ordained who is senior? If you answer the question honestly you got your answer.

and DO NOT for one moment think you are yapping at one of your shakakakakatttamumble people. Give Scripture that relates to the issue not "rebuke not an elder" which had NO bearing on what we are talking about above.

Stop getting over excited,

Do you remember I once asked you if Moses was not your ideal so you too could feel only you had direct access to God? Now you prove me right when you say OT God  spoke to Moses. Can you show same in NT? This is a NEW PRIESTHOOD with only ONE HIGHPRIEST, Jesus the Christ! Any other senior priest? show me from the Bible! But you say each tribe had a leader in Israel? Which tribe are you from, Joagbaje? Oh I forgot, levite (tithes)!

Christ is highpriest does not mean he gets threatened by other leaders. James was chairman or pastor of the Jerusalem church. Paul was head of the Gentile ministry. Timothy He called several people into offices and he demands others or the subordinates should submit to them.

Elders rule in Christianity,

So long as they rule under a pastor and not try to rule over the pastor.  Im not aware Paul had elders rulling him!.But rather he had elders under him. Im not aware timothy had elders ruling him , but ruling under him and helping out just as moses had Mirian Aaron and other leaders from the tribes ruling under him. It is a principle in both OT and NT. The Apostles of Christ were not rulling him either. They were not political presure group in the church. Im sure you will like to occupy such position. "Lets call the pastor to order"  " who will raise the motion"?

So why is it only money and ways to get more that is your wahala?

What wahala? Stop getting personal ,Deal with Topic. Did I ever say I have problem with money? or wahala as you said. Money is my servant and it will continue to serve me and the cause of the gospel.

Whist we are still on the book of Timothy, it says in Chapter 3, verse 7 "Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." when speaking of a "bishop". You and your pastor himself - where is your good report without, with the fruit of agabas, mabells, jeri curls, healing schools, "take it and fall down then get up to fall again", training people to receive blessings of God etc that the earth is assaulted with daily? and with your twisted interpretations of the Bible.

Where is the good fruit of Jesus Christ without with the fruit of Judas the thief, Thomas the umbeliever, Peter the liar! who denied him!. James and john who wanted to call fire on innocent people. and the rest who were contending who will be the greatest?

Come on answer me!

If Jesus was justified for have raised people who had some coma, Pastor Chris is to be commended.
And whats your problem with Jerry curl? . Besides, Pastor Chris doesnt do Jerry curls. Does that look like Jerry curls to you? Jerry curls is messy and achaic for men. Shower cap and all that "coming to america stuff". Its mostly used by primary school headmistress! Look more closely next time.

VALIDATOR:
There is no spirituality or any metaphysical factor in performing magic.Just tricks.
You are made to reason in one convenient way while the magician acts in another way.I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT BECAUSE I KNOW A FEW TRICKS TOO.

Another thing to consider is that a rural African dweller not used to watching TV may actually think that the actors disappear when actors recite incantations and disappear from the screen.

Nobody has ever been able to at will demonstrate magic/metaphysical ability/miracle/etc in a laboratory kind of condition.

1 Position cameras to cover the magic performance from all angles with the magician at the center
2 Record the magic as he performs it.Do not edit the videos in any way.
3 Slow the videos down to less than 6.25%
4 Watch all the slowed videos simultaneously.

this response is more like it. Except for the fact that you don't believe miracles

nuclearboy:
Interesting question from a Pastor who has supposedly, read the Bible, not just Rhapsody (I'm pulling your leg, Joagbaje, but still, think it through ).

Exodus 7: 10 - 12 "So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs"

I've studied the bible well and I know even about paul's encounter with men who wrought "Curious art" (magic) . We are not dealing with oriental times now. I just doing a personal research. So don't box me in. I read quoran. I read about other faiths. I should be well informed to reach them at their level.

So the question, Pastor, is not if you believe in Magic but this - DO YOU EVEN BELIEVE THE BIBLE?

I believe in the bible. Whatever you mean by that.

@Kenya28,
I'm also of the opinion , As much as possible to give necessary information to those who ask , to prove the authenticity of your claim.

VALIDATOR:
So,if all the ones around you are not real,why should you think the one on your computer screen is real?

Food for thought. People always feel its better if its from another place because we are too familiar ith each other.
Proverbs 9:17
Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.

Azibalua:
What about the issue of making things disappear.

If you observed carefully , they usually have a big table infront. Well that depemds on the trick. Someb tricks dont require table. The settings has to do with the kinds of tricks to perform. But those big tables have compartment inside where you can bring up things and drop things.

Well my intention to have proof if there is any spiritual part of magic. So i will believe in it to come with proof. Before I come to my own conclussion if there is some demonic / spiritual involvement.

Azibalua:
I have seen a magician make things disappear and another cut a woman into two!. I think it is spiritual but demonic.

If you observe when someone is "cut in two" it is actually the coffin like box that they cut. and separate into two. The head is poping out in one box, the legs pops out in the other. The truth there is that there were 2 people in the 2 boxes that appear to be one.the leg of Mr A and the head of Mr B .If I have time i will burst some of the myths on magic that I found out.

As a child ,i used to be facinated with watching magic shows. I was thrilled by the likes of proffessor Pella in nigeria and other foreign performers. But later in life i began to question magic. Because I observed that many of these magics were tricks. Few former magician I talked with showed me some of the tricks behind the show. I even subscribed to a magic website in my research and I also observe that there is nothing spiritual about these shows they are just tricks. But I heard people say things like " you have to read 7 books of moses and sleep in graveyards for seven days to have magical powers. I am not interested in magic to perform it. Im only doing a personal research into the myth about it. so far I believe all magics are tricks for shows and has no spiritual part. But if you have a knowledge of it that says otherwise. I will like to know.

nuclearboy:
^^^ Have you started drinking or is it smoking weed that is your thing? What does the above mean?

I will pretend i didnt see these insults of yours

Deep sight,
You have great principles and I wonder why you are not born again yet. Sometimes I feel you know God but you just dey vex for God.

Reality to many is what the eyes can see or the material realm of life. But reality according to scriptures is to dwell in truth of the spiritual realm. Truth means reality. The real realm of the unseen you beyond material. A man functions in reality by faith. He is able to manifest the invisible him , the hidden man on the inside. Jesus brought reality to us (truth} because he is truth (reality) By Jesus we can function in truth also.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 18:37
Jesus answered, To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Pilate asked a golden question that day, but he didnt wait for the answer.
[color=#990000]
John 18:38
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

It is the realm of spiritual verity. That was why Jesus could defy laws of nature . walks through wall, walk on the water. performs miracle. Men walk according to senses but reality is in God. We power on the inside that we are yet to fully display. The holyghost is the agency by which we walk in reality. He helps us to function in the other realm beyond material. Jesus calls him THE SPIRIT OF REALITY( TRUTH)
When a man gets born again and recieves the holyghost, he can begin his journey in the spiritual real of life.To be trained and grow up unto christ. The world is yet to see us for who we are.

Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

As we meditate on Gods word we are tranformed in the realm of realityand truth.Some bare the name others function in it,

nuclearboy:
There is a HEADSHIP and the Bible is clear on that - ONE HIGH PRIEST. It further reiterates this when it says CHRIST iS THE HEAD. Any other head(s) are therefore FAKE!

There is a leadership - PLEASE, SIR, STARTING FROM THE DAY AT PENTECOST, show me one Pastor heading a flock in the Bible.

Paul ,Philemon, aquilla and Timothy were pastors, to name few.

Leadership in the Bible is by example that makes you get chosen as an elder. Read that as PLURAL as we do not have one elder controlling the church anywhere in the Bible unlike today when "pastor MOG" is almighty.

Ofcourse you cant have one elder controlling the church. The elders are submitted to a pastor. Timothy as a pastor had elders working with him. They dont controlled him. He straightens them up. Paul had to tell him to take it easy with them elders.

1 Tim. 5:1-2
Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; [2] The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

1 Tim. 5:19
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Even though the word "Elder is used in generic term for leaders. Paul was elder, timothy was sub elder and there were other junior sub sub elders. They should know their organogram. The head of the woman is the man, The head of the man is Christ, The head of Christ is God.

1 Cor. 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

"administrative structures" belong in government and business. The church is the body of Christ. Jesus is its Head i.e. brain. Are you telling us here that it is your tummy that administers the church's structure? So thank you but NO, in the Biblical context, there is no administration except that of Jesus Himself

Fa fa fa faa - foul!. God always deal with people through leadership. He doesnt deal with people in mass. Read your bible well . From the OT to the NT. He deals with a people through the leader he has anointed over them.He spoke to moses, Moses spoke to the Elders, Each tribe of Israel had a leader etc.

Let me speed this all up. The Bible does NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE PASTOR over a flock. Whenever a "church" was planted, the "apostle" who planted it left it to "elders" and there was no central administration i.e. no branches and no remittances to the head-quarters. Thus leadership was found through the simple process of people knowing themselves and thus putting the most respected elders as leaders. Read "Elders" as PLURAL (chosen through natural selection of maturity).
There was no administrative structure as is found today - no Pastor(s), assistant pastors, personal assistants, no ushers and definitely no bodyguards. There were no budgets! Responsible people collected and shared money DONATED FOR THE POOR, not for the ministry pastor as you do today.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Hebrews 13:24
Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

Romans 12:8
; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
The important issue here is addresswd above. The rest are irrelivant

And one last thing Joagbaje, the Gospel spread so much that YOU HEARD IT, even though Churches didn't collect money for themselves but for the poor. Churches gave not collected. The poor received, not paid tithe! And they found love they had found nowhere else amongst these "elder" run fellowships/churches.

And who is talking about money here on this thread? But you are still wrong anyhow. Paul taught about sowing to ministers life. Jesus recieved collections. I dont know why you bring this up here.

Luke 8:3
And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

TV01:
I asked you a question on another thread - related to Gods supposed tithing plan as a vehicle for prosperity or some such notion you postulated - if I recall, you did'nt even acknowledge the question, let alone respond. Anyway.

Welfare = Need. This exists with or without preaching and I spoke to this already. Please try harder. "The Labourer is worthy of His wages".

Thanks
TV

I did not deliberately ignore the question. maybe I missed it. Sometimes i do have some network situation. But this Welfare=Need thing ,I dont really understand, I will apppreciate a little clarity.

@TV01,

TV01:
It does not take money to preach or to spread the gospel. Money in the body of Christ moves almost overwhemingly for physical need. End of. There is nothing writ in scripture or any biblical example to suggest otherwise - although I stand to be corrected if anyone can evidence otherwise. As for organised religion, now that requires cash money, and plenty of it.
God bless

Have you asked yourself where Jesus got money to hire boat, and for welfare.

Luke 8:3
And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Where did Judas get money to steal from jesus?

John 12:6
This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

nuclearboy,
I would like to be clear on your stand.What are you really passing accross
Is it that there should be no headship
Is it that there should be no leadership in the body
is it that there should be no administrative structure
I dont want to misunderstand you so please be clear on what you are projecting so I can respond appropriately.

nuclearboy:
OF course Joagbaje cannot tell you who a true man of God is - it will have to contradict what we say and that will be an open admission against the Bible so he comes up with this asinine rubbish that makes no sense

It may not make sense to sense knowledge individuals but it surely gives spiritual insight.

Another member of this Forum who goes by the name TV01 wrote a writeup earlier that throws more light on the activities of what "they" do as opposed to "what" it should be like. Joagbaje wants you to follow MEN that he himself is affiiated to who will then intepret God to you. I want you to follow GOD Himself; nothing in it for me. Which side is Jesus Himself on? Read His Words yourself - [b]MATTHEW 23: 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.[/b]

So let us ask - who is wishing that men be called Rabbi here? Is he supporting Christ? Who wishes to be a "master"? Who are they that want to be called "daddy", "mama" even by followers that atimes are older? Why should they be followed when you consider the Words of Jesus above? Are we not ALL equal brethren according to Jesus? Do they know better? What is in it for me? What is in it for THEM? is this not a fight about the money and power they get over the souls of men? What have I asked you to bring? Why can't they push you to study and develop DIRECTLY under the Holy Spirit?

And what is this " Be not called Rabbi" Children rhymes you are pasting all over NL?. What kind of misuse of scripyures. Maybe I dont really get you. You may throw more light. Are you saying , there should not be teachers in the church or what?

In the Body of Christ, there are no class or hierarchical divisions. The only real distinction is maturity in your walk and time spent in His presence (Acts 4:13). There is no mandate or requirement to have some believers differentiated (i.e. elevated) by ordination or theological/seminary training (John 7:15).

Hierarchies, reporting lines and corporate structures are simply not necessary in the Body of Christ (authority stems primarily from the family and not the Church. 1 Corinthians 11:1-3).

There is structure in the body of Christ . There is leadership and organisational lines of comunication in the body. Both old and new testament. I wish I have the time for this crap.

John 12:20-22
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: [21] The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. [22] Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.

He had 120 there about, out of which came 70, he had 12 leaders out of which were the big three. Moses had Hierarchical structure. Gods leads people through leadership. From the home to the church. Ofcourse leadership is not being bossy over people but a place of service. Every christian leader should know that. But you are just jumbling things together with this you erronous doctrine of we are all at thesame level teaching. I thought you said you lead a bible class or prayer group or something. I will want to know how organised or disorganised it is. If it like corinthian church.

Megida, na wetin I dey talk am por there?

Enigma:
I think you are exaggerating; very, recently, I lived in the Middle East for a stretch and have a fair idea of the state of Christianity there; your Christ Embassy "ministry" was nowhere on the radar when I lived in the Middle East!

How can you say that?. Do people watch decoders on the street? were you in people's bedroom to know what they watch?. You are not in the best position to talk about CEC outreaches. Do you know how manyfeed backs we get? Our conferences witness so many people of all races , we even had to have interpretations with ear piece for some. Chinese were weeping and crying on the floor, for the opportunity to atttend such conference. india, middle east. How can you sit in front of a computer and talking about what you dont know.

Yep, technology is all well and good ------ but other than the fact that a lot of Christians watch so-called "Christian" TV and a good number of them are fleeced of their money, the fact is that so-called [b]"Christian" TV is very useless at evangelism and conversion of non-Christian[/b]s. In terms of converting non-Christians to Christianity, so-called "Christian" TV is not value for money at all and the "return on investment" is very poor.

What fact formed your opinion? Every time loveworld programmes comes on air, The phones start ringing. People are first led to the lord on the phone.before they can even recieve prayer for whatever problem. There is prayer of salvation on the screen also after the teachings. What are you saying? And what is this money , money thing and fleece you guys always talk about. Money is nothing to us . It is a servant. It must be used. It is rather those who worship money as a God that find it hard to give out, and always criticising those who use it.

Here you do two things: first you deceive yourself by saying that your god "Pastor Chris" "could be in a studio talking to tens of millions" from a studio; you display your ignorance of the difference between potential and actual; you display your ignorance of how television viewing figures (especially of an individual station) is calculated. Your "Loveworld" station operates here in the UK, yet its viewership is nowhere on the radar when calculating viewing figures in the UK. Let me give you a comparable example. This religion web-page can be viewed by maybe hundreds of millions but do you know that sometimes each post is read by only 5, maybe 10 readers - going by the site's own figures?

Our figures comes for feedbacks statistics. So you attempt to undermine viewership of loveworld doesnt hold water.
I have loved ones that are not CEC members in the uk. They call me and appreciate the impact of loveworld. Thats just by the way.

[/quote]Second, you show your readiness to undermine Jesus Christ even if only with flippancy and thoughtlessness and of course in the process to elevate your god "Pastor Chris". If you had any sense of true appreciation of Jesus Christ, you will not talk of Him in terms of "holding a crusade" and/or having whatever numbers attending; if you have a proper sense of appreciation of Jesus Christ, you will know that he transcends all that.
[quote]

I cannot undermine my lord Jesus, I was dealing with statistics. If my figure was wrong , prove it from scripture because I got the figures from there. I even added extra 5,000 crowd for Jesus! Just in case.My Point is the benefit of technology and cash to have greater impact. If Jesus were on earth now, he will feel embarrased by you because he will take advantage of technology. Some preachers did worst befor by criticising TV in timt past but thank God they are on TV now. We should appreciate those who are working day and night for God , rather than criticising them.

davidayo:
What is the diffrence between a pastor and a motivational speaker. Cos a pastor will pose as a motivational speaker and a motivational speaker will pose as a pastor. They should be differentiated.

POSE, How? Try to be clear. Its it in their appearance, gesture or in the content of their speeches. Be detailed in your point

ogoamaka99:
Please can someone tell me who a true MAN OF GOD is?.I am asking this question specially to nuclearboy ,biomes2001 and co. who has portrade all the successful men of GOD specially in Nigeria as either fake or evil. As a result i am beginning to think whether all the men of God in Nigeria are evil or fake. Can you please tell me how i can recognize a true man of GOD with particularly a living example of a true man of GOD.
In otherwords if true men of GOD exist in Nigeria i will appreciate to know them through this forum ie their names,ministry and location as well as one or two evidence that proves that they are true men of GOD.

I can assure you that they have none, because those who attack men of God usually dont know its a demonic thing and ignorantly are un aware of the spirit behind it which makes them do such things.

Jude 1:8
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

2 Peter 2:10
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Let me prophesy:You will not get any recommendation of a true man of God in this thread for one reason. This religious critical spirit that attack men of God has the sheep as target.When they tryto turn people away from spiritual leadership and at the end of the day leave them wit nothing but shattered faith. It is demonic.