₦airaland Forum

Interesting story. . . 

lately, I've become more impressed with Olojede's 234next and their investigative reports.  I can't wait for us to get a freedom of information bill.

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=590997.msg7585310#msg7585310 date=1295756434]It is what it is. Nobody cares about Eboe language. .[/quote]Now You is going Equiano on this Shyyte  

That's cold son

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=590997.msg7585294#msg7585294 date=1295755828]For all I know, all of English sounds like curse words to baboons.

But of what relevance is what a baboon thinks?[/quote]Hahaha You are becoming evil

Aigbofa, Awo, ma da won lohun, ai 'gbede lo n se awon Ogberi yii  

The joke is actually on the Ogberis how ironic  

oseiwe:
But the thing is dat all dose talk abt one man one vote no dey work cos we dey circumvent d thing to please PDP and our hosts, na who pay we dey obey.

If PDP wins and you don't have a job, your roads are not fixed, no water to drink, no good hospital to go, don't let me hear you blaming GEJ o! he already paid, so don't blame the man.

^^ had to come back and second that Warrior!! Creative altruism: touché!

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=590472.msg7584444#msg7584444 date=1295735193]@fstranger and @Kilode?!:

Well, let's talk concretely. Would it be really better to switch say K-12 math education away from English to indigenous language X? Is the end result a higher quality math education for students? I don't really think you gain anything, education-wise. It isn't like Nigerians are struggling to learn math because it is taught in English, is it?

Like, would one really be able to learn addition/pre-algebra/geometry/calculus/etc more easily in Yoruba than English?

So you expend a lot of resources changing the curriculum over with no gain. And arguably there is a loss; any fruits of the mathematics research in language X are difficult to share with others (think of all the excellent work developed in Soviet math/science journals that we were not able to access in the West due to language issues.)[/quote]You are making a lot of assumptions for someone who grew up in a different culture speaking English as a first language. If they had taught me calculus and physics in Yoruba I can bet I will be way better that I was in those courses. Speaking for myself.

You probably don't understand the disadvantages if navigating two languages at the same time, especially when you are dealing with difficult concepts, we know speaking more than one language will probably make you smarter, one reason I always doff my hat for African and Asian immigrant students who excel in foreign schools -Not speaking about 2nd or 3rd generations like you Eku_bear - but at what cost?

Speaking broadly, I believe the world is definitely poorer because of the suppression of African ideas and philosophies. You can imagine how much poorer we are because of that.

Not being able to access Russian ideas is the west's loss, why should I worry about what they will lose?!! Russian used their ingenuity to send man to space before Americans, they built industries and expanded the frontier of knowledge,

English speaking people had to pay the price to translate and learn that, the same way we pay to learn theirs, that is their call, that is their headache. I don't need to bother myself about that. We can trade knowledge but Shame of me if I have to worry about their needs before mine. Tufiakwa!

Got to go for now, need to see to some other responsibilities. Hopefully thread will still be alive when I return.
Edit: additional comments.

Beaf:
It is this sort of lazy thinking that has got us where we are.

Bro, That was a tongue in cheek comment I'm sure you saw the wink emoticon and read my clarifications. You know I stand by my Niger Delta people anyday!  

^^ really? I read they live in the same neighborhood. Damn!

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-01-18/news/ct-met-dolton-shooting-0119-20110118_1_dolton-residents-dolton-home-robbery-attempt

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=590472.msg7584272#msg7584272 date=1295732316]The main concern is expense, not so much "will." Like, who would pay to develop and maintain this material? It wouldn't be cheap. Also to some extent locks you out of existing research and resources available in the West.

I don't mind promoting language/culture, but not in expensive ways that duplicate the wheel.[/quote]Which one is costlier? Have you done a cost benefit analysis? Do you know how much we've spent on maintaining the burden of European subjugation in the last 700 years? In human, material, social, spiritual, cultural, and psychological resources?


Cost that, then let's assess which one is cheaper. To continue with a failed system that currently shortchanges my people or make the necessary investments and sacrifices? yes costly, but compared to what?

^^You go kill person   na my bros you dey mimic like that? Ok o.

fstranger1:
The same thing was said before Ajayi Crowther translated the Bible into Yoruba language in the early 1900s

It can be done, we just have to start from some where

The almighty English language didnt always have ready made words for scientific elements  and phenomenons, but by sheer will, improvisation, inventiveness, borrowing from other languages, and hard work, they achieved what probably seemed unachievable then. We just have to start from somewhere

You are definitely from my school of thought. I mean my ancestors were cooking up chemical reactions before pasteur! Ever been to an Onisegun before

Jokes apart, it can be done. If the will is there, how come the Japanese and Chinese have a word for every chemical even the ones they didnt discover? Or is "oxygen" spelt that way in Chinese?

yeswecan:
In as much as i agree with you - i still think you are oversimplifying the cultural issue .

Maybe, we definitely cannot flesh out all the intricacies on here.

@sapeleguy I was half-joking about that. I believe we can't do all those things without justice and equity. I think we have those principles in our various cultures we can connect to them.

@stranger, yes Sophie Oluwole is so unappreciated, the same way we scoff at tiwa n tiwa things (home grown). I like that woman
In serious societies her ideas will be shaping public policies.

yeswecan:
subjugate small ethnicities- that's unfair.

It won't be easy to get one uniform cultural ideology in a country like ours- that's my point.  We cannot Roll Back the state, we are already deep in the western lane that i think any systematic arrangement to roll us back will be a disaster.

I know almost every liberal minded person here will say it's unfair and I agree it is. But we can negotiate from unfair to fair, at least they will have a seat at the cultural revolution table. Hopefully.

Unfair is what I'm doing right now: speaking and responding back to y'all my Nigerian brothers in a foreign language, although I think in a different one. No one asked me, no one asked my ancestors before they got subjugated. that is unfair.

BTW I offered that as a worst case scenario, I'm not Ghengis Khan.

Katsumoto:
Good post
How do you think the abundance of natural resources affected Africa? Don't you think the Western powers intervened more in Africa than in Asia? For instance, the British let India split into three countries (to avert chaos) - India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh but wouldn't do the same in any African country because of their divide and conquer strategy in Africa. Do you think India could have been this successful if it was conjoined with Pakistan?

Also, Malaysia, Singapore and other southeastern countries are doing better than us not because they are creative or innovative but because they provide good bases for western businesses. They are more stable politically, less corrupt, educated, and subservient. Apart from being subservient, we miss the other requirements. Can Barclays or Citi Group establish foreign operations in Nigeria without fear of fraud or corruption?

I agree with you, I had to avoid that area so I don't write a thesis on NL

We were over used and over abused. . . walahi

yeswecan:
@Kilode?

I do not know how possible your cultural revolution would be . Remember we are in a highly mixed nation that can not be characterized as one in any context be it language, religion or ethnicity. I know hybridity to be a problem but i doubt if it is as profound as you suggest.

Actually I will use the word hybrid differently, an hybrid comprising of the various cultural ideologies we share in Nigeria can achieve it. Our ethnic similarities are much more closer than the ones have with the Europeans whose thought and ideas seem to permeate every facets of our current National processes.

And we can always "subjugate" the smaller ethnicities, the Oyinbos did it to us now. . .

[quote author=ndu_chucks link=topic=590472.msg7583636#msg7583636 date=1295723463]I am still waiting for proposals and/or solutions to the problems that are responsible for our backwardness, as stated by posters.

@Kilode?! I like your last post, but it comes short of providing solutions to the issues below, just like Chicago bears will come short on Sunday:  

* An inappropriate system of government. (democracy cannot work where over 50million electorates cannot read or write. 1bad of rice = 50votes e.t.c)
   * Corruption
   * Ignorance due to lack of basis education of the masses
   * Flawed cultural values
   * Brain drain – Most of our intellectuals are abroad
   * Oil curse
   * Foreign Intervention
   * Lack of Determination
   * Unpatriotic Citizens

Your comments are anticipated.[/quote]I know it fell short, though I recommended a Cultural Revolution,

Seriously, I cannot provide solutions to all of those specific issues, I believe experts in those areas will have to do that. But, I think each solution will need to address the issue of culture, national identity and collective national ideology, everything cannot be reduced to mathematical theorems, Maybe it can

Don't we have homegrown ideas rooted in African philosophies that can address the issues of resource control or revenue sharing? Public corruption and Education? Punishment and due process, I believe we do.

On corruption: I will refer to an idea expressed my Prof Sophie Oluwole of The University of Ibadan or Lagos I think?, I read and saved this from the Nigerian Guardian papers few years ago, I cannot get a web-link right now;

"In African tradition when you steal and you are identified, you will be punished because you’ve done something wrong and we believe that the act would even prevent our ancestors from being interested in our affairs and also to make it a deterrent, But when oyinbo man came they started looking for scientific proof, the suspect will go to court and the complainant will be asked to prove it "beyond reasonable doubt". But in the original African culture we taught our children that that when you steal, even without anybody seeing you, you will be punished by the gods and it became a part of our system. But when the oyinbo people came, they told our people that, "Sango cannot kill you, you can continue to sin. Just say in the name of Jesus your sins are forgiven. "Why will a society not be corrupt? Especially when it’s not used to such graces!"  -Sophie Oluwole is a retired professor of African philosophy [Italics, my emphasis]

Will that solve our problem? can we find solutions based on our culture and the our worldview? or is she just a crazy old professor? I don't think she's crazy.



Packers have nothing on the Bears but I don't know too much about American football so go figure

fstranger1:
Now I think you are the smartest person on NL.  [size=4pt]prolly second to the one and only, Aare becomrichn, your mentor[/size]

Glad we see things the same way.

But your in-depth knowledge and creativity shone through this write-up

Your best essay yet on this ever evolving topic!

Lol funny guy.


Nah there are too many smart people here, have you read PhysicsQED and Katsumoto? Or pastorAIO and one deepsometing guy? Of course I give it to Bashorun Becomrich he's outta this world, I'm not even close to those people, I be small boy o.

passyjango:
@Kilode and @Yeswecan, I do not agree with your 'blame the west' arguments. India went through colonisation, same for Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. All these countries are ahead of us in all aspects of human endeavor. We need to take responsibility for our actions. It is our ignorance that has kept this nation in her pitiable situation. If our leaders are not coconut heads, they will not agree to every World Bank and IMF programme but push their own agurement, which I am sure IMF and World bank would have agreed to if it made sense. You can not criticize another person’s suggestion if you can not offer anything better. So, I still maintain that ignorance is our major problem. Coruption is a problem, but it is only an effect of a bigger problem of ignorance.

You are right about ignorance.

I don't do "blame the west" arguements of the type I think you are referring to.

For example, I don't blame the west for seeking an expansion, I do not blame the west for seeking cheap resources, I do not blame the west for spreading their ideas and their religion, I do not blame the west for negotiating in their own interests. I will probably do the same. That was not a "blame the west" post, it is an "Africa shine your eye" post

I'm not blaming the victims either, This is not a blame game scenario, that is too simple for me.

I essentially gave my thoughts on the reasons why we seem so far back and disconnected from the principles that drives the world we inhabit.

We have little to do with the production and development of the ideas and processes that we currently use, we lack that philosophical and emotional connection to them, not because we lack emotions or good philosophies [I believe we have them in ample supplies] but because we are not leveraging them.

Western democracy, Western capitalism, Western human right laws, Magna carta, Due process, representative governance, even the languages we speak. all these principles and more are based on imported western, philosophical thoughts. We had to learn them, translate them then try to practice them within the context of African society.

I believe all that placed us at a disadvantage, We could have developed ours, even evolve new ones, because I believe we had parallel ideas, we still do. EX: in Nigeria we will easily kill N20 thieves in our marketplaces probably because we are repulsed by their act, but we seem clueless or reluctant to deal with those who steal Billions from public government accounts. We even praise and hail them as our sons and daughters.

Do I blame the west for all that? heck no? I don't even blame our ancestors for it. They did what they could. it is what it is, poo happens. The question is what are we going to do?

Now, You mentioned India, Malaysia and Singapore, I'm glad you used those examples, what languages do they speak? What are their national cultures like? I will put india and Malaysia on the same scale and separate Singapore.

I'll skim the surface;

India: No national language, but they have a national culture. Despite their colonial history, we cannot ignore the impact of Hindi culture and Indian philosophy on their Country. From the Indian caste system to their own unique brand of parliamentary democracy, to their high usage of Hindi language, -for primary educational instruction to daily communication- Despite the presence of various languages and sub cultures, India can be called a country with a national culture.

Look at Gandhi's history, he read Thoreau alright, But his principle of peaceful civil disobedience borrowed heavily from the hagavad-Gita and some of the sacred Hindu Upanishads, that was his chief anchor, His satyagraha was based on the Ahimsa principle's of his Indian culture and religion. He influenced Martin Luther King, he eventually influenced Nelson Mandela. Did Ghandi borrow, yes, a bit, but it was based ultimately on his cultural and religious beliefs and he changed the world and liberated his people.

Like Nigeria, they assimilated a lot of British processes, but you cannot compare the depth of their cultural usage and the impact of their culture and philosophies on governance to what we have in Nigeria, not because we lack culture, but because we failed to translate it better to the institutions we got from the British. Nigeria is better than a lot of other African countries in this regard. But we are far behind other nations and this is killing us, we lack the emotional connection to the ideas that drives the world we were forced into. The Indian example is one reason I have a love-hate relationship with Nollywood, I don't like the quality but I like the cultural significance [another topic].

Malaysia: Speaks mainly Malay, they gave themselves a national culture policy in the 70's. It was a deliberate attempt to create that connection I'm speaking of, I may not agree with their subjugation of smaller cultures and languages, but it made their lives easier, they even retained their "king" to boot, albeit ceremoniously. Check the British too. That connection and translation of ideas into familiar cultures and philosophy that we can emotionally connect to is very necessary if we want to address our problems in Nigeria.

Singapore: Glad you brought it up. An interesting example, a mix bag of cultures, Foreigners make up about 40-42% of Singapore's population. You cannot compare their history and circumstances to our's at all. I think Singapore is referred to as the most globalized country in the world. it is a prime candidate for assimilation, and successfully borrowed philosophies.

I read that two out of every three people in Singapore is not Singaporean LOL. . . Nigeria is not at that stage yet.  Malaysian Chinese, Indians, Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Indonesians, Australians, Americans, Europeans, they have it all, we do not.

We can't compare Singapore to us in the context I'm speaking of. The national language is English and it better be. The culture thing will not affect them like i believe it affects Nigeria because they have completed the cycle, It's a global culture country. Singapore is a market, not a "home"


Now, note that none of these countries are in the G8, it is not a mistake. I believe it is hard for a country that depends too much on borrowed philosophies with little emotional connection to their own ideas to attain that level, It takes more than brains, guns and geography. History cheated us, we need to correct it, that is one reason I will vote for a Cultural revolution and it does not have to be bloody.

^^ No probs, I'm sure you notice the sarcasm in there too, just half-joking really. I'm more interested in getting folks to share their experiences on here and encouraging more people to go out and register to vote.

Katsumoto:
I agree with you that Nigerians are largely ignorant but the same can be said of people living in developed countries. ?

That being said, the problem is with Nigerians. Our cultural values are flawed. We place too much emphasis on material possessions and too little on living and enjoying life. There are many well to do people in Nigeria but how many are cultured? How come our artists (cultural arts) are poor? How come our writers are poor? How is it that Nigerians mainly visit US, UK, Dubai, Italy and other shopping destinations? Why don't we have many Nigerians back-packing in Asia or Latin America? I understand that these questions can start another debate but they are connected to fundamental problems in Nigeria.

Frankly, That is the debate I'm waiting for. . .

I agree with you, except that I'm not so sure the flaw is inherently in the values, I think it's in the translation of those vales to the world we got ourselves thrust into.

EX: The European incursion into Africa, the almost sudden (in historical context) subjugation of our religious, philosophical and social belief systems and the lack of strong emotional connections to this new euro-centric one -its systems, its beliefs and philosophies- is IMO, at the root of our problems.

I'm not against foreign ideas and religion, But I think History and chance blindsided us, We (Nigerias/Africans ) lost ourselves in translation/transition.

1025:
there are two types of people in the world viz; those with direct approach to issues and those with round about approach and the wpeaker here falls under the later.
even the dead, the lame, deaf and the dumb know and it is a proven fact that corruption is the number one problem of nigeria. nigeria is so corrupt that even the unborn nigerians are corrupt.
an average nigerian is not a lazy person and that can be seen in the way nigerians are scattered all over the world. it is one thing to make efforts and another to make the efforts on the right directions.
we have leaders who grow from zeronaires to billionaires and trillonaires within months of governance.
we have trillions of uncounted for dollars originating from sales of crude.
in fact, our second name is corruption.
we celebrate corruption in nigeria.
the more corrupt u are in nigeria, the more famous u are. steal N1 in nigeria and u cld face life in jail but steal N100b and u will go in for 2 yrs(bode george) steal N198b and u will face 6 months(cecilia Ibru). the bigger your crime, the lesser your punishment. u can graduate to an above the law status as we can see in the case of Tony annenih and obasanjo.
as i write, my greatest challange is to break the record of obasanjo in the stealing industry and i know my fellow criminals(so nigerians) are chasing the same record.
we(nigerians) are born to steal. an average nigerian is an international criminal.
our president(jonathan) said on his facebook page two days ago that nothing good comes easy and i asked him what abt looting of public funds in nigeria?
he was right just that he forgot that one of the exceptions to that rule lies in the case of govt officials stealing our funds with ease.

Guy, breathe slowly, count to ten, breathe deeply.

I understand the frustration, but your unborn children are not corrupt, at least not yet. Lets keep pushing, we will get there.

^^ don't listen to that yeye Dutch man, he's a mole planted in Nigeria by the owners of Nigeria; Royal Dutch Shell and co. He should go and tell his story in holland.

SapeleGuy:
Kilode?! ndu_chucks is only playing devils advocate so take his comments with a liberal pinch of garri.

I wouldn't hold my breath for any subtle reorientation in our political ideology. Our politics nah gboza gboza gboza, I don't see it changing anytime soon, at least not subtlely.

The issue of a political ideology is a whole new thread. One party has an umbrella, the other has a broom The ease with which politicians cross carpet enmasse beggars belief. Have they really changed their ideology or are they chasing the money?

We cannot escape it bro, It will come like trickling water or like rushing waterfalls, Human history is cyclical, It is coming. It happened in China, It is occurring slowly in India, It happened in Brazil with the leftists taking over,  "When" is what we do not know for sure. But I see it coming.

[quote author=ndu_chucks link=topic=590472.msg7580070#msg7580070 date=1295658856]@Sapeleguy & Katsumoto, I submit to you people that the said powerful and rulers are Nigerians just like you and are probably of superior intellect than most of you. These people are a reflection of you – why do you continue to allow them to constantly beat you into submission while you respond with internet warriorship or outright escape out of the country?? You guys sound brilliant enough to seize power from them! Don’t give me the old story – they have the money/big guns e.t.c.  Tunisia has taken that argument away from you.[/quote]It is a process bro, I see Nigeria moving to that level in the next few decades. Much faster If we get a benevolent, Ideological group of leaders.

One, Nigerians in the diaspora will probably become suffocated by the changing fortunes in the west and look more towards home, like Chinese and Indian professionals, I see them demanding and struggling for a greater share of the political and economic pie and in the process naturally drive changes. Unlike the diaspora generation of the 70's,  their number, the availability of instant information and the reduced opportunities in the west will be a major factor.

More importantly, I see a generation of Nigerians home and abroad, (mostly home based) influenced by a totally different ideology acquired from the more open interaction they are currently having with a more global, much smaller world. These Nigerians, because they are not as connected to the old oppressive feudal allegiances encouraged by our culture as their parents were, will drive the greatest amount of change in Nigeria.

I'm not sure the country will survive these changes as it's currently structured, I'm not even sure it will be called Nigeria. But, I see hope for change based on some of the points above

My worry is that we will enter into a period of cultural deficit, I will prefer we avoid that by getting a cultural revolution like they got in China but I fail to see how that will happen with the kind of ethnic mistrust I see in Nigeria.

But, I will take the more modest, less violent, Economic/Subtle ideological revolution over what we currently have and I do see it coming soon.

fstranger1:
Where is Mr. Kilode??

I need you to give a poignant response to Becomrihn's monologue/diatribe!

Haha You don turn me to Akede Oba

Anyway, I already asked Bashorun Musiwa to reduce his interactions with little little people on policy heavy issues, he will delegate those duties to the Odu'a council

All we need from him are broad vision statements, so expect more of those.

SapeleGuy:
The truth is they simply do not care.

Corruption is a convenient and blinkered chorus. When we are ready to tell the truth we will no longer deny this.

Why do you think they don't care, is it cultural, or genetic like ndu_chucks asked?

Edit

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=590472.msg7579876#msg7579876 date=1295655167]

Lol, let's put it this way. If I had a federal minister in my lineage, I'd not be in the US   I'd be back home getting contracts somehow somehow  [/quote]You are a quick learner

ola olabiy:
I am hitching to know more about Eku too. His dad must be powerful and rich. I mean a typical Nigerian politician. LOL.

TENSOR777 is another example. They have never seen anything wrong with corruption.

Tensor, LOL,  Where is the dude? I can bet 5 quid on that one. He's from big money, probably federal civil service or Politics, or Maybe private company money, Scholarship, Family funded through Oxford or LSE. I envy some Nigerians Walahi  

Tensor no vex, just wondering sha  

oyb:
corruption right there  

rest assured some shishi changed hands

LOL

no offense intended to anyone - dimeji bankole, our minister of finance, bukola saraki, bred and buttered in uk. just sayin'

nigerian corrupption and the culture of impunity have a way of wearing off on people

I agree. Dimeji Bankole is a disappointment. But I'm just holding out hope that it might be because those people are from Nigerian families with deep links into the corrupt structures we have. Some of those kids went to Harvard, Cambridge and Oxford on Stolen Public Money. They come on NL sometimes to defend their Daddy

I said that because I doubt eku_bear has a Federal minister in his lineage, so he might not see the Nigerian corrupt system as his bread and butter. I hope he doesn't. Eku defend yaself.

-double post-

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=590472.msg7579735#msg7579735 date=1295653361]Fair enough. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. I guess I've been lucky not to experience the negative parts of police in Nigeria, who knows. Or maybe it doesn't affect you if you are above some level of wealth.[/quote]eku_bear, Let me ask; (for my own sanity)

The only experience you've had with the Nigerian Police system was when you went to Nigeria for a short visit and drove on our highways, probably inside a Family Vehicle driven by a Nigeria savvy Personal driver, right?

You've never really interacted with A Nigerian Civil servant in their natural habitat(offices, institutions, etc) all by yourself before, right?