₦airaland Forum

@Post
How do you determine who a man of God is in the first place? Is it any clown that registers a church, rents a space, starts holding regular services and labels himself a pastor? Or is the the false prophets/ teachers the bible warned us about who would be mostly after extorting money from us. To answer your question yes we can critisize even genuine "men of God" after all Paul who was junior to Peter in the faith critisized Peter publicly when Peter was being hypocritical on the issue of circumcision. That apart the bible warned of several false prophets who would emerged and told us to be discerning. We were also told of the standards by which we should assess preachers[by their fruits we shall know them] so personally i feel free to criticize anybody that claims to be a man of God and is not displaying the fruits which the bible says they would display.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=280730.msg3986840#msg3986840 date=1244299107]Some of the problems you'd pointed out are not peculiar to only one church - many churches have this thing about affinity and loyalty, so they frown at their members marrying members of other churches, or participating in their activities (worship, Bible studies, evangelism, etc).[/quote]This in itself is very wrong and unchristianly when a church starts to see another church as competetion instead as another member of the body of christ you know that christ is not the central focus in that church.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=280730.msg3986840#msg3986840 date=1244299107]However, if anyone is asking you for money and claiming all sorts of things thereby, please know that such tendencies are ungodly. It's not my style to resort to castigations or aspersions of people, but as a believer grows there's a maturity that opens one's eyes to these things. Giving is good, we know there are blessings attached to our giving; but giving under duress with claims of "death" upon one's life is not the Gospel of Christ at all. It does not matter whatever spiritual gift or office anyone may claim - prophet/prophetess, healing evangelists, etc - using one's gift to twist your arm to give is an indication that something is fundamentally wrong and you need to face up to it.

Abuses of this nature come through several routes and means. In your case, it was labelled as "seed offering". Nothing wrong in seed offering itself, and the Bible affirms that aspect of our giving. However, when someone takes what is actually true in itself and applies it to false motives and ends, it is time to close the door against such abuses in your life. Even though giving in church is healthy and part of our lifestyle as Christians, you were not raised to be responsible for paying any prophetess' debts or bills.[/quote]The above highlighted espescially the red part reminds me so much of the false doctrine of tithes. Thanx pilgrim.1 for bringing it up

> TRADITIONAL ECONOMICS
> You have two
> cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
> Your herd multiplies and the economy grows.
> You retire on the income.
>
> IBO ECONOMICS
> You have two cows
> U make very good counterfeits of them
> And sell for the price of the real cows!
>
> YORUBA ECONOMICS
> You have two cows
> U kill them both
> And throw an owambe party!
>
> HAUSA ECONOMICS
> You have two cows
> You rear them till they are four
> Make sure ur kids rear cows too
> And just maintain!
>
> INDIAN ECONOMICS
> You have two cows.
> You worship them.
>
> PAKISTANI ECONOMICS
> You don't have any cows.
> You claim that the Indian cows belong to you.
> You ask the US for financial aid,
> China
> for military aid,
> British for warplanes,
> Italy for machines,
> Germany for technology,
> French for submarines,
> Switzerland for loans,
> Russia
> for drugs,
> Japan
> for equipment.
> You buy the
> cows with all this and claim exploitation by the world.
>
> AMERICAN ECONOMICS
> You have two cows.
> You sell one and force the other to produce the milk of
> four cows.
> You profess surprise when the cow drops dead.
> You put the blame on some nations with cows &
> naturally,
> that nation will be a danger to mankind.
> You wage a war to save the world and grab the cows.
>
> FRENCH ECONOMICS
> You have two cows.
> You go on strike because you want three cows.
>
> GERMAN ECONOMICS
> You have two cows.
> You reengineer them so that they live for 100 years,
> eat once a month and milk themselves.
>
> BRITISH ECONOMICS
> You have two cows.
> They are both mad cows.
>
> ITALIAN ECONOMICS
> You have two cows.
> You don't know where they are.
> You break for lunch.
>
> SWISS ECONOMICS
> You have 5000 cows, none of which belongs to you.
> You charge others for storing them.
>
> JAPANESE
> ECONOMICS
> You have two cows.
> You redesign them so that they are one-tenth the size of an
> ordinary cow and
> produce twenty times the milk.
> You then create cute cartoon cow images called Cowkimon and
> market them worldwide.
>
>
> RUSSIAN ECONOMICS
> You have two cows.
> You count them and learn you have five cows.
> You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
> You count them again and learn you have 17 cows.
> You give up counting and open another bottle of vodka.
>
> CHINESE ECONOMICS
> You have two cows.
> You have 300 people milking them.
> You claim full employment, high bovine productivity
> and arrest anyone reporting the actual numbers.
>
> NIGERIAN ECONOMICS:
> You have two cows
> You eat one and claim it was stolen
> Call in the Police to investigate
> Police arrests everyone living within 100km
> Torture them thoroughly until someone admitted kidnapping
> the cow
> The police instead collected one cow each from everybody
> arrested
> You have your cow
> back and the Police now owns a cattle farm .
>
>
>
>

chukwudi44:
Pilgrim,
Your penchant for mischief has been exposed.Everyone can now see clearly where you are even If you decide to deny it .

You mean we should just fold our hands amd allow criminals get away with their antics?
A lot of people are ignorant of the truths about tithing and must be educated.

That's true, Pilgrim.1 why are you so hell bent on defending the the antics of this tithe preaching pastors even when it is obvious they go about preaching it the wrong way. As christians are we meant to condone twisting of the scriptures?? Much as you argue that "a lot" of christians give tithe willingly [with the the full knowledge that they are not oblidged to] we know that most preachers preachit as compulsary which is wrong. My question is why are you so defensive of something you have agreed is wrong?

@Pilgrim.1
As usual you try to quote me out of context but for the benefit of others i would try and explain my self better. Abraham, the first person to tithe in the bible originated from mesopotamia and since tithing was practised there it is only logical that he learnt to tithe their as there is no record in the bible that he was ever instructed by God to tithe. So by saying the origins of tithe is pagan i am still in order even if we don't know the exact culture to first practise tithes we know that the practise of tithes in mesopotamia pre-dates biblical tithes hence the original origin is not biblical. And since the earlier cultures we know that practised tithing are pagan we can very safely conclude that the origins of tithing is pagan

@All
Have a nice weekend, i am out of here.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=277404.msg3982385#msg3982385 date=1244216253]Where is your "confirmation" in those references that tithing ORIGINATED from those places?[/quote]I never said it originated in those places, all i said is that it pre-dates biblical tithes and Abraham obviously learnt it from there.

davidylan:
Caution - personal opinion.

I dont think it is a forced obligation to tithe a certain percentage of your money. However i believe it is an issue of being led . . . the new testament talks about "cheerful givers" . . . my understanding there is that giving is NOT mandatory but an outflow of our love for God that we are willing to sacrifice our time, money and energy for His gospel. Should i choose to give my time to preach the word, am i any worse than he who gives 20% of his salary? Is giving strictly all about money?

I dont think its about false or right doctrine either . . . to each his own understanding of the scriptures.

2 Cor 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Cheerful giving in christianity is not controvertible[even though the giving in the passsage you referred to was directed at the needy and not the church instituition] whilst i have no qualms about giving to the church i believe all preachers of the gospel are bound to say the truth. But on the issue of tithes becos of the filthy lucre involved the truth is not being said by a good number of preachers and the preachers that know the truth are embarassingly quiet on it hence the reason some of us have taken up the mantle to speak this truth out.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=277404.msg3982327#msg3982327 date=1244215704]Where does the evidence reference show the "confirm" that you read into it?[/quote]It's called common sense. Abraham grew up in mesopotamia were it was their custom to tithe. Common sense dictates that he must have learnt about tithing from his pagan folks in mesopotamia.

omoruyilag:
when i was growing up,my dad told me that there use to be a woman in a neighbours compound that has fought with eventually everybody in the compound,i was now blaming the other women in the compound of constantly quarrel with her,but my dad scolded me and said,for one person to quarrel with the other tenants in the compound,then she nust be the bad one.Pilgrim you are the only one supporting this tithe scam,its obvious you must either be benefiting from it or you are a pastos wife,pilgrims cant you see the handwritting on the wall that you have since lost this battle?Tithe is not encouraged in the new testament,even in the old testament were its talked on,people were to eat their tithe with their family and also to the poor,so what are you trying to prove,or have you written your own version of the bible?

see pilgrim.1 new comers to this thread are already seeing the emptiness in your posts despite the tonnes of mumbo jumbo you post in trying to justify the scam.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=277404.msg3982263#msg3982263 date=1244215162]Again you infer. Did the references "confirm" that Abraham was taught about tithing from Mesopatamia? How is it that is only where you find in those references? It simply said that "the ‘tenth’ was usually approximate, not exact. The practice is known from Mesopotamia, Syria-Palestine, Greece and as far to the west as the Phoenician city of Carthage". How do you connect Abraham's tithe with paganism when Melchizedek was not said to be in that connection in Scripture?

None of the references "confirms" anything about the "origin" of tithes; only that the practice was known in those places.[/quote]Obviously you don't have anything to say cause the evidence[which you graciosuly posted] is just too glaring.

davidylan:
why is there an argument over paying of tithes or not? Are we now under the law?

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

If you are led to pay tithes . . . do so. If you are not so led, give however you are led to give. chikena.

This is not about being led or not because most people are led to tithe based on faslehood, it is the truth we seek to reveal here there after the person with the full knowledge of the truth and that he as no christian obligation to tithe can then decide if he is led to tithe or not.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=277404.msg3982093#msg3982093 date=1244213931]You're inferring things into the reference. The references did not point to the "origin" of tithe - neither in Mesopatamia, nor at Abraham's time, nor any of the other places mentioned; nor did it say it was "confirming" it was 'pagan'. Reading pagan into it is assuming things.[/quote]Where the mesopotamians[who taught abaham tithing] not pagans? I am not inferring anything, you tithers claim that tithing was instructed by God[inferrring it originated from God] whilst the evidence we have [which you graciously posted] makes it crystal clear that tithing was a common practise in that region as of that time and the israelites probably copied it from civilizations that precede them.

Well those who deliberately twist the scriptures deserve to be slurred. The bible describes such people as greedy and fraudulent in jeremiah 8:8-10. If the bible can slur such people then why not? i am only emulating what i read in the bible. The only solution is for all blasphemers to repent from their evil and manipulative ways.

ttalks:
No, I'm not saying that.

What I'm saying is this:
Once we have made sure we have brought to table all the points to support our beliefs or convictions, we should sit back and allow other reasonable Christians to go through and make their own decisions; no mater what the opposing group might say.
We should trust that others have brains and can use them as long as the proper info has been provided.

It is only when a whole new angle to the argument is brought up that we can attempt to address it.

Whilst i agree with your submission here, the machavaellian and manipulative way pilgrim.1 posts does not allow for this, her several rants, twists quotes[albeit out of context] is capable of confusing others further. she also constantly tries to discredit the truths we post on this topic hence to need to battle her to a logical conclusion else she would continue to lead others out of the grace of christ.

@Post
Did someone pull your pants off?

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=277404.msg3981981#msg3981981 date=1244212965]You haven't shown that tithing ORIGINATED from MESOPATAMIA; nor do the references show that it began from that place or at the time Abraham gave tithes. Please look up the word "origin" or "originate" or that cognates.[/quote]I never said tithing originated from mesopotamia[which pre-dates the biblical tithes anyway] what i inferred is that Abraham must have learnt about tithing in mesopotamia[A pagan region] since he came from there and it was their custom to tithe.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=215255.msg3981923#msg3981923 date=1244212531]I don hear. Are you satisfied or what have you gained from repeating your slurs and yet addressed nothing in my post? You can accuse from now till thy kingdom come, what have you ever tried to point out that is intelligent enough to uplift you and your noise makers?[/quote]On the contrary me and "other noise makers" have been correcting that the erronous belief that christian giving should be directed at church instituitions and ministers and teaching as christ and the apostles taught that christian giving is principally about giving to the poor and the less priviledge amongst us.

@Ttalks
Are you saying as christians we should just sit back and allow others to keep spreading falsehood about our faith whilst bringing our religion to ridicle.

What is all this holla about substituiting bread with groudnut when churches[espescially pentecostal and baptist were i attend] have been substituing wine with black currant juice for eons.

Well i feel huxley is free to bring himself to the level of lower animals, why don't you go and find a gay mate and justify this "natural" behaviour.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=215255.msg3981507#msg3981507 date=1244208504]You asked questions - I answered them all. I also offered you and your ilk a few questions, which you either are too shy to answer or simply have no clues. Further, I pointed out my persuasions from well-articulated sources: Scripture, the arguements of anti-tithers themselves, and authentic sources of Jewish scholars. Surprising that in none of these instances have you or any one of your drummers ever been bold enough to show intelligently how my answers were flawed. All you do is repeat you slurs about others being deluded, etc. How have you grown spiritually thereby?[/quote]On the contrary you hardly ever answer questions you are asked, you would rather resort to running round in circles and confusing issues. At best you resort to twisting scriptures or quoting it out of context and i can say with fear of being controverted that i have on several occasions pointed out to you instances were you twisted scripture or quoted it out of context[ A good example is 2 corinthians9:7 which taught on giving to the needy which you twisted to meaning giving to the church] That apart i am still waiting for you to show me from the scriptures were tithing was described as a percentage of income or were chrisitans were instructed to tithes.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=277404.msg3965597#msg3965597 date=1243959621]I suspected that was what might be on your mind, but didn't want to prejudge it. The fact that something "is known in Mesopotamia" does not mean that it originated from there. Nothing in that reference argues that tithing was first known or first practiced in Mesopotamia; and thank you for acknowledging indeed that Abraham's tithe to the king of Salem was of his own free volition - just as tithers today choose to do so. [/quote]Doesn't common sense dictate that since Abraham came from mesopotamia he would have been aware of the customs and traditions of his people of which tithing is an integral part off? That is apart from the fact that there was NO religious conotation or requirement for his tithing to the King of Salem since it was a normal practise/tradition back then.[ even though some charlatans try to confuse chrisitans by using the example of Abaraham's mesopotamian tithing example to justify what was never taught and required of christians in the bible]

Big churches help to promote the brand image of the church and in so doing they also have space to accomodate more customers.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=215255.msg3966426#msg3966426 date=1243969042]Is it not self-evident? I wonder how it is that many questions that anti-tithers have asked have been well-addressed; but anti-tithers rarely ever provide answers to questions offered them. Second, who's always slurring people as the first resort simply because their anti-tithing arguments are waning? How many of your own anti-tithing arguments have stood up with a spine?[/quote]On the contrary all the evidence that we have been able to garner suggests that the type of tithing[Compulsary 10% of earnings to be paid to the church] being preahed by most scammers pastors today has no biblical basis. We have asked you several questions on tithing and showed you how the bible defines tithes from several scripturse yet you stick to your delusions and resort to twisting the bible further to confuse readers of all the various threads you have been ranting on all in an effort to justify this scam. But i think your efforts are being wasted cos the word is already out and some of us are dedicated to sharing this truth to other christians till the day we breath our last breath. The weight of scriptural evidence is against tithing as it is practised today and we only need to show poeple with least bit of grey matter in their heads before they see the light of truth whilst you continue to fight your loosing battle.

OLAADEGBU:
The meaning of ego can be summarised in this short acronym: E. G. O.

E[/b]dging

[b]G[/b]od

[b]O[/b]ut


[b]QED  No long story.

This aptly explains why the average pentecostal pastor is sooooo EGOistic. Obviously they have kept God out of their lives.

OLAADEGBU:
By Self I mean to be selfish the opposite selfless. The perfect example is that of Jesus Christ the Creator of heaven and earth who became human to save us from the penalty of sin which was eternal death.

This is another lie that a certain group of so -called christians bandy about[ i don't know if they are actually trying to dis-credit christianity] but there is nowhere in the bible that Jesus claimed to be God or the creator. He constantly acknowledged and prayed to God his father in heaven who sent him.

PS: The concept of trinity does not have any sound scriptural basis.

@ogajim
Welcome on board, i see you have been under attack for expressing your views on this thread and your adversary is none other than our own dear pligrim.1, i must warn you though pilgrim.1 for what ever reason assumes she is the only intelligent person on nairaland and she has a very arrogant way of expressing her ignorance or delusions especially on this issue of tithes. That apart there is obviously an interst she is defending as far is this issue is concerned hence her penchance to distort scripture and confuse issues when she is trying to deceive others about tithes.

@PAstor AIO
Your wisdom is truly inspirational.

@Pilgrim.1
I see you keep asking anti -tithers why they don't encourage people to tithe since they don't have anything against tithing per se, the question should be why should i tithe or encourage anybody to tithe in the first place and what is the christian basis for it?

ttalks:
Let's leave this tithe issue with the glaring fact that a lot of tithe payers(that does not mean all) pay their tithes without the complete facts about tithes and also the glaring fact that some pastors use this ignorance of folks to deceive and manipulate them.

Spot on this is the message which some of us have been trying to put across and also expect all others who claim to be christians to to support. Cos deceit is totally unchristian[whether it is being done by a pastor or not] it really beats me how someone who claims to be a true believer would put up such a spirited fight to defend a very glaring and wide spread deceit in christianity and would even go to the extent of further distorting scriptures to butress her delusions.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3965440#msg3965440 date=1243958339]Are you now "christ"? Sorry, oga. . you're neither the Redeemer nor the authority of the Word of God. The Christ we know from Scripture does not go about maliciously accusing pastors with your pseudo-spirituality and then come back complaining when your rantings are being addressed.[/quote]On the contrary christ was constantly accusing pharisees[the pastors of that time] and condenming their hyprocysis. It is very evident that the pastors of today are not any better[probably even worse]

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=215255.msg3965377#msg3965377 date=1243957630]Your last statement about devilish ambition is apt for those who demonise pastors to justify their own pseudo-spirituality.[/quote]On the contrary it is more apt for those who twist the word of God to de-fraud his children. It is also apt for those who defend this evil them as well.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=215255.msg3965328#msg3965328 date=1243957236]Can you then answer the simple question of your own tithe-twisting, Kunle? You cannot be accusing pastors like you're the personal assistant of 'the accuser of the brethren' and yet unable to show your own "perfectly okay" tithing from income for Christians. WHERE do you derive your own "perfectly okay" tithes you have been noising emptily from?[/quote]It is very low, cheap, dirty, filthy, digusting and irritating this your continous and repetitive out of context quote which you have been posting here. It actually speaks volumes about your character, it says to me that your are a very dis-honest person whom one should be very wary of

PS: Imagine someone who claims to be a christian resorting to lies on a public forum just to defend her ill conceived fraudulent doctrine from the pits of hell.

Image123:
Anti-tithers and their ways sha. Now na 'seed' be their problem. Anybody that says tithes is biblical is now a criminal and a pastor. Kunle even believes that he has some crown reserved for him for his 'work'. Stingy bunch of sadducees

It is my christian duty to share the undiluted truth with others no matter whose ox is gored. Calling me stingy becos i am not ignorant enough to fall for your scam is actually very myopic and self delusional.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=277404.msg3964944#msg3964944 date=1243953806]Which syntax in what you highlighted 'confirms' the "origin" of tithes as pagan to you?[/quote]Mesopotomian civilization[where abraham came from]highlighted above confirms the origin as pagan to any student of the bible or history. Abraham obviously learnt about tithing from this culture as God never instructed him when he did so of his own free volition to the king of Salem

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3964972#msg3964972 date=1243954054]And which passage in the NT have you been quoting out of context to justify your "perfectly okay" tithes from income? We've been through your nightmare in that reference before, until you came round to admit what you had denied previously. Your penchant to self-destruct is magical in itself.[/quote]Your penchant to quote out of context is not only lengendary but it also reveals a very conceited mind that is desperate to defend a certain position that as been clearly shown to be evil and contrary to the teachings of christ. When i wrote that it was perfectly okay to tithe from income i also put a caveat and that is the tither must know the truth about tithes and he must be doing it out of his own free volition and with the knowledge he doesn't have any christian obligation to do it unlike what your criminally inspired pastors preach.