₦airaland Forum

Pastor AIO:
I was not upset by the questions, I was upset by your posturing and grand standing. That someone else made an attempt to answer the question just says that the person has a higher tolerance threshold for idiocy. I did answer your questions to the best of my ability and instead of responding to my answers you asked more questions leading me to understand that you know next to nothing.

I won't mince my words but I'll tell you straight. I don't like what I know of you. You are nothing new but you fit into a certain type of personality that I'm well acquainted with. You belong to that common type that gets puffed up with half baked knowledge.


No sir, you have scared no one. Not consciously or subsconsciously. However you are attempting to put us off studying this subject. And you're trying every underhand trick. Where did I say that I 'know much as to try and elighten others'. We are discussing here and you, thus far, have contributed nil, or even minus nil. That is a false accusation you made there.

That is a false accusation to be added to the already heinous crime of self aggrandisement. So you are now the 'best of teachers' helping your poor students (ie me) to make informed decisions. When I need a 'master' you can be assured that I will not come to the likes of you. I think you're an idiot. (just my opinion)

Studying world religions will lead you to atheism, you say. Further more the path is treacherous and laden with all kinds of scary stuff so if you know what is good for you don't study or research, be afraid and run from investigating the truth. Is this what you're selling? Well, I will oppose you every inch of the way. I see you as the enemy, an enemy of truth, an enemy of investigation into truth, the enemy of enlightenment. You belong to darkness.

. . . and what is that quality that most marks out a child of darkness? Yes, arrogance, empty baseless arrogance. How do you know how many years I've been researching world religion that you can state that you've known about it much earlier than me?
This Forum is called Nairaland for christ's sake. What was going through your 2 brain cells when you stated that you're a 'Nigerian and a Yoruba'. Do you really think that you're the only Nigerian here, or the only yoruba? Please I would like you to consider that once again the name of this Website. It is called NAIRAland. It has that name for a reason.

When you said you were looking forward to all the possible verbal attacks, what did you mean? Obviously you are here to start a fight. (and I believe you've got one). You are not here to share anything with anyone but to bring all the negative energy that is afflicting you offline onto this forum to give vent. I would tell you to get lost but it seems you're lost enough as it is already. In any case COMMOT FOR ROAD.

O boy pastor wire don touch o

@Solosimple
I had to bring in the angle of the church becos pastors/reverens/bishops head the churches andin most cases especially amongst the pentecostals the church as been personalized and if the church is doing something the pastor would be given credit for it.

On the issue of whom to help whilst there are a number of examples in the new testament of christians helping fellow christians, there is no directive that this help should be restricted to only christians. Infact i believe it must be extended to non christians and in this way we would be abble to bring them to christ. The commandent given to love was :"love your neighbour as yourself" this can not be construed to mean fellow christians alone as the religion of christianity did not even begin until after the death of christ. Also examine this teaching in the book of James

James 1:27:
27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for[b] orphans and widows in their distress[/b] and refusing to let the world corrupt you.
Please note that the above was refering to distressed orphans and widows and NOT just believers. As christians we should learn to love all and not discriminate whether the person is a beleiver or not.

JJYOU:
where in these scriptures were christians told to make this into law?

The greatest christian commandment in the bible is to love others, how do you practise this love if you don't assist the poor and the afflicted around you. This commandment was repeated several times in the new testament and was demonstrated thru charitable works by the apostles and the early church and we were asked to exemplify this.

The passage below further butresses my point:

King James Version (KJV)

1 Corinthians 13:1-13:


   1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

   2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not[b] charity[/b], I am nothing.

   3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

   4[b]Charity [/b]suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

   5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

   6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

   7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

   8[b]Charity[/b] never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

   9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

   10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

   11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

   12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

   13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.



In other translations the word charity was substitued with the word love which goes further to prove my point that love was demonstrated through charitable works or by the term love in the scriptures charitable works was implied.

New Living Translation (NLT)

1 Corinthians 13:1-13:

Love Is the Greatest
1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love [/b]others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t [b]love others, I would be nothing. 3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t[b] love [/b]others, I would have gained nothing.

   4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

   8 Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10 But when full understanding comes, these partial things will become useless.

   11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12 Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

   13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

domwas2:
Pastor Kumuyi is the same yesterday and today, He never change with the world, he's still the best,

And that is why he is building a mega cathedral[as big as a stadium] in Gbagada now after he criticized other church pastors for building such extravagant structures a few years ago.

@solosimple
Whilst you are right in your submissions that it is not the duty of pastors to develop their communities, it is the duty of the church to help and assist the poor and the needy. in fact if you study your bible well you would discover that church offerings and collections is meant to help the needy[acts 4:32-35]. The church is meant to help people live better lives and that is why churches are registered as charities becoas that is what they are meant to be however this charitable roll of the church as been relegated to the back ground cos those leading the church today have no genuine love for the people they are ministering to. the church is not just about spreading the gospel but also about helping others. Here is what James the brother of Jesus as to say about being a christian;

James 1:27: True and undefiled religion[worship] in the sight of God the father is taking care of the widow and the needy in their affliction and keeping your self uncorrupted from the world.

There are several scriptures in the new testament that directs the church to give to the needy, i would be glad to point them out to you if you want further clarification on what i have posted.

[quote author=$osisi link=topic=215255.msg3927392#msg3927392 date=1243358643]Kunleoshob is not a Christian.
He is a Christian critic who has all the answers to what's plaguing Christianity
He knows it all with all the spirit of pride accompanying
Leave him to God, let God deal with him as he pleases.
As you can see he has ready answers to everything.[/quote]On the contrary i am a very devout God fearing christian who as discovered the truth of the true gospel of Christ which is very contrary to the false indoctrination that is being bandied about by most churches today. I really do pity those of you that claim to be "born again" christains in all these charlatan pentecostal churches. The truth is that most of you don't have the love of christ[which is the most basic and compulsary requirement for being a christian] in you yet you claim to be christians. I preach love for fellow men and help for the needy which is what christ taught yet you say i am not a christian and it is those charlatans that preach tithes and seed sowing which christ NEVER taught that you consider as christians, may God forgive you.

PS: I hope you know being a christian means being christ like. Chrisitanity is certainly not the indoctrination going on in the thousands of unordained denominations we have all over the world today.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=215255.msg3927231#msg3927231 date=1243356846]So, in your theology, "sowing" is actually a scam? "First fruit" is also a scam? Something is just disturbing you. [/quote]I call it a scam because the way the bible actually defines and executes it is totally different from the way it is being preached today. obviously you knowthe best way to tell a lie is to present the truth and manipulate it to confuse others.

@OLAADEGBU
Why are you being so defensive and antagonistic, i never said that what you quoted about what Jesus said is not the truth. What i raised is that as a christian the only thing you could point out in this commendable act on the part of the catholic bishops is that they made it public which is against the teachings of christ. If you were not biased against them you should first have commended the act and encouraged it before pointing out that they went about it the wrong way.

[quote author=$osisi link=topic=215255.msg3926652#msg3926652 date=1243351400]I wonder why people insist on making Christianity complicated when our Lord and savior says his [b]yoke is easy.
na wa[/b]
My sister no matter what you say,there'll be another thread like it tomorrow.
someone would soon ask if it's Biblical to drink fanta since Christ never drank fanta.[/quote]Examples of such yokes include tithes, thanksgiving offering, seed sowing, first fruit,prayer offerings, and all sorts of other scams thses so called men of God come up with to fleece the congregation.

Even though i don't know too much about TB Joshua, i am yet to be convinced of all the baseless and stupid allegations being made against this man. it is obvious the man is preaching the word of God undiluted [unlike pentecostal preachers] he also ensures most of the church revenue goes towards helping the needy[unlike his critcs] he also demonstrates other gifts of the spirit like miracles[ this is debatable though] to me i would rather accept him as a genuine man of God than all the penterascal pastors in this Nigeria put togther. The onus is on them to prove he is fake.

sleekdot:
Is it compulsory to pay my tithe to my church?
i get confused a lot on this issue

As my sister pilgrim said earlier tithing is not to be done under compulsion so it is not compulsary to "pay" it to your church. If however out of you own free will decide to set a part a portion of your income to do God's work you can give it to any church that you genuinely believe would use it to glorify God or better still you can use it to better the life/lives of other human beings by using it to assist the less priviledged and God would reward you richly.

@OLAADEGBU
As a christian you should be more interested in exemplifiying this worthy cause the catholic bishops are engaging in and probablby encouraging your church to get involved in similar projects, but all you can do is to look for a way to critisize the way they are going about their chrisitan duties just becos you have something against the catholic church. Christ also said "he that is without sin should cast the first stone" i am quite certain that if we take a closer look at the church you worship in, you would be found wanting in several departments. My advice to you as a christian brother is that you let the love of christ reign supreme in your life and you also learn to keep his final commandment to believers which is to love one and other.

John 13:34-35:
34 So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. 35 Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.”

By showing dislike for a particular group of christians you are showing to the world that you are not a disciple of christ as indicated in verse 35 above

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3921128#msg3921128 date=1243266527]Kunle, rest the case - you've only come round to affirm the same thing you denied, and there's nothing you offer as excuse that can atone for your initial denial.

Scroll back and see it for yourself:



Synthesis:

     Kunle:   
     'In your reply you lied that 2 corinthians 9 was talking about giving to the church'

     pilgrim.1:
     Kunle, who are the "Christians in Jerusalem" -
     are they in any sense the 'church', or they are not the CHURCH?

     Kunle:
     'The christians in jerusalem were part of the biblical church'

If you can now come to agree that what I pointed out from 2 Corinthians 9 is precisely about giving in church, where does that leave your accusation earlier when you come back to say the same thing as I did?[/quote]This is dis-honesty at it's highest level, cos i am quite certain that i have made myself clear enough on this topic yet you still go ahead to quote me out of context all in the bid to score extremely very cheap points that would actually make you look very silly. this is not about winning arguments but about communicating and discussing the truths and by so doing we share knowledge a gain from each other. we don't have to resort to such cheap shots just becos you are hell bent on mis-representing others.

All you silly evil minded pentecostal morons spreading liies and making unsubstantiated allegations against this man, one thing is certain this man is obeying Jesus commandements and is probablby a better christian than all the pastors/con men in PFN put together.

@Post
Well the pastor is only trying to better the lives of the footballers as they would have a better chance at success if they are playing in europe than in Nigeria. I think T.B Joshua should be commended for that.

@Pilgrim.1
finally you are begining to make some sense on this topic.

@Poster
better still you can give it to the poor. Please note that as a christian you are not under compulsion to tithe so in effect you give tithes and NOT pay it.

segyemaro:
You ve not answered my question on whether Jesus spoke on tithe and were his disciples encouraged tithe paying?why i said i dont want any reference from mal 3:8 is that,that is were you would want to refer to,and it has nothing to do with me.

I think the question you should asking here is : How does the bible define tithes and how was it practised then? Also does the mode, definition and practise of tithing today have any sound biblical basis in christianity? Was it taught to christians by Jesus or the Apostles?

As usual you pick out trivialities and twist facts whilst playing with words in trying to buttress your hallucinations.That apart you take delight in ignoring the very obvious truths whilst taking cheap pot shots at others who are trying to help you understand the truth of the word of God [without charging you for it like others do ]

@Pilgrim.1
We both know that "the church" being referred to in the bible is totally and completely different from what is meant and defined as church today so stop trying to be smart. In reality you are merely displaying a hint of dis-honesty by playing with this word and to borrow your terminology you are say quarter truth[not even up to half]

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3920713#msg3920713 date=1243262771]Please Kunle, be man enough to stop this game of ducking simple questions. If you can't address the question I offered you earlier, say so simply and honestly.

      Kunle, who are the "Christians in Jerusalem" -
     are they in any sense the 'church', or they are not the CHURCH?

If you can address the above honestly and simply (no prevarications), then I'll address yours. If you can't do so, say so.[/quote]The christians in jerusalem were part of the biblical church[I hope you don't use this statement to quote me out of context ], however the biblical church is different from the church today that as fragmented into over 30,000 denominations with no love between them. So trying to draw an analogy from a word that as lost it's meaning in the last 1,700 years is tatamount to playing with words and using technicalities to create an impression that you are right whilst we both know the reality.

@Pilgrim.1
As usual you continue to demonstrate not only your poor understanding of the scriptures you also choose to be deliberately selective whilst attempting to quote me out of context, but let me remind you that there are others on this forum most of whom are quite intelligent who understand the issues being raised here. With that in mind i repeat my assertion that the giving in Acts 4 was ultimately meant for the needy and not the preachers[instituition], it further butresses what i have always said that christian giving is more about giving to the needy. In the case of this passage the chrurch was just used as a conduit to collect and distribute the gifts to the needy the money was not meant for an "instituitionalized church" like we have today it was meant for poor believers who are part of what make up the church in those days. You as a christian [i assume you are one] should be genuienly worried that the proceeds of collections amongst believers is not being used according to the biblical directives. You should stop trying to justify what is wrong just becos that is what your pastor taught you.

@Pilgrim.1
Who are the major benficiaries of the collections in your "church" today? You being part of the "church" do your apostles pastors share this proceeds with you or any of the other individuals that make up "your church" as was exemplified in Acts 4:32-35? Your honest answer to this would go a long way in assisting me to know how exactly to answer your questsion.

JJYOU:
some people will never go into the kingdom of God and will do all things to stop others entering into the kingdom.

And some people think they can bribe their way into the kingdom of God whilst following the doctrines of men and ignoring God's commandments.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=215255.msg3920366#msg3920366 date=1243259853]I get you, and there's nothing you have added to make much difference from the same problem you've had all along. Please calm down and understand the basic issue here: whether to preachers or the poor, both can occur through giving in church - and that's what the epistles demonstrate.

Even Acts 4:32-35 that you quoted is only underscoring the very fact of giving in church - just check it out at verse 35 - where did the "laid them down at the apostles' feet" occur - outside the church, or rather in Church? Unless you have some way of demonstrating that the apostles were outside the Church, I don't see what Acts 4:32-35 does for your argument.

When you carefully read the verses you are contending with (or rather proffering), then the point will come forth to you: giving in Church is a ministry that channels help both to the poor, those who preach, and even others outside the Church.[/quote]Are you for real?   acts 4:32-35 clearly demonstrates the essense of giving in the church and my dear it did not expressly state to "help those who preach" which you tried to smuggle in. It says the money was distributed to those in need, so for those who preach to be qualified to receive out of it they must be in need. And if you want to try and use this passage to justify giving in church then i would more than use it to justify that the proceeds must be given to those in need[mostly charity] which is very contrary to what our churches practise today.

I have already answered your question or you want me to fall into your trap of techninalities[abi you be lawyer] won't fall for that except you address the issue of the context of the church in new testament times and the reality of what a church is today.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3920243#msg3920243 date=1243258600]Thank you.
Now when you're calm, carefully read and then be assured that I did not lie, nor would I return the 'compliment' of such an accusation. You need to be careful the type of spirit you often exhibit and not be an 'accuser'.

Here is your problem: Kunle, who are the "Christians in Jerusalem" - are they in any sense the 'church', or they are not the CHURCH?

When you answer that simple question, then I'll show you why your accusation was uncalled for.[/quote]You are trying to play with words with me abi won't work as we both know that the definittion of the word church in the bible and the present day realities are two totally different things. Especially when it comes to use of church funds

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=215255.msg3920205#msg3920205 date=1243258168]However, even when we examine the NT, we find indeed that both sides are emphatic. [/b]The only thing here is that people tend to look at only one side of the issue and then begin to operate their mentality from ONLY that one side. This is why you often have said that "our preachers" have 'twisted' Scripture to mean giving in church, and that sounds as if [b]giving in Church is a heinous sin by any means.[/quote]Whilst there are passages that teach and support giving to preachers and giving to the poor i find from studying the bibile that 90% of the teachings on giving are actually directed towards giving to the poor and that is why i stated that the emphasis should be the poor and not the "church" and if we concentrate our giving to the church then we must be sure that the church is actually using the money to help the needy as exemplfied in Acts 4:32-35. But today the emphasis of chrisitan giving as been reversed by this same people that are supposed to teach us the truths of the scriptures. Obviously the reason for this does  not take rocket science to decifer.

Acts 4:32-35:
32 All the believers were united in heart and mind. And they felt that what they owned was not their own, so they shared everything they had. 33 The apostles testified powerfully to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God’s great blessing was upon them all. 34 There were no needy people among them, because those who owned land or houses would sell them 35 and bring the money to the apostles to give to those in need.

Well the bigger the church auditorium the more customers worshippers it can accomodate.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3920084#msg3920084 date=1243256786]Kunle,

Please show what your problem actually is in my reply. Just singing about "lies and deceptions" is infantile, it says nothing and cheapens your arguments. I was hoping you have problems in 2 Corinthians 9 on sowing - and yet you had to quote the same passage as if it was NOT saying the very same thing you read in my reply. Are you seriously missing it now that you can't actually discuss? Please let me know. [/quote]In your reply you lied that 2 corinthians 9 was talking about giving to the church and that is why i had to re-post it in full so every body can see it was talking about giving to christians in jerusalem who were in need at that time. It is also a typical example of how pastors twist the bible to make it say what it is not saying

@Pilgrim.1
For the record i am not against christians giving to the church neither am i saying that the bible does not encourage it, my point you are missing is what the empahasis of christian giving is based on the bible. The truth is that if you examine the new testamnet very well, most teachings on giving were menat for the needy even church collections were meant for the needy and that is the emphasis, but today the emphasis as been changed[by men] we are made to beleieve that christian giving is all about giving to "support God's work" i.e church and scriptures used to teach giving to the poor are actually twisted to mean giving to the church like you tried to do with 2 corinthians 9: I do support giving to the church and i actually do but my submission is that more emphasis should be given to the poor/needy as exemplified in the bible. I am also dismayed that men that prophess them selves to be "men of God" have actually insituitionalized twisted scripture into their church doctrines all in the bid to make money for themselves whilst stealing from the poor and using the word of God to justify this greed and wickedness. These teachings i believe were God's way of creating a poverty alleviation programme and men have highjacked it for their own selfish desires, this i believe is evil  being manisfested and it should be condenmed without any reservations.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3908563#msg3908563 date=1243012199]'Sowing in the kingdom from the perspective of christ was
giving to the poor and the needy and NOT giving to the church.'

That was your statement, to which I initially referenced as half truth. In the first place, when "sowing" is connected with "giving", it is in 2 Corinthians 9 we find the concept used in that manner. If you carefully read again that chapter, you will find that "sowing" is pointing to giving in CHURCH, contrary to your denying it is so. Can we quote you some verses now to show it? Here -

[list][li]verse 6:
- But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly;
- and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully[/li]
.
.
[li]Verse 10:
- Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food,
- and multiply your seed sown,
- and increase the fruits of your righteousness[/li][/list]

Look again at your statement: your idea that "sowing" was "NOT giving to the church" makes one wonder if you had so soon forgotten 2 Corinthians 9 - at least, the apostle was addressing giving in Church in that chapter when he spoke about "sowing".[/quote]Once again i am being forced to expose your lies and deceptions as exemplified in the highlighted above. For the benefit of all i would post the said passage below then everyone would be free to decide who the beneficiary of the "sowing" aposlte paul spoke about was.


2 Corinthians 9:1-14:
The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem

1 I really don’t need to write to you about this ministry of giving for the believers in Jerusalem. 2 For I know how eager you are to help, and I have been boasting to the churches in Macedonia that you in Greece were ready to send an offering a year ago. In fact, it was your enthusiasm that stirred up many of the Macedonian believers to begin giving.

3 But I am sending these brothers to be sure you really are ready, as I have been telling them, and that your money is all collected. I don’t want to be wrong in my boasting about you. 4 We would be embarrassed—not to mention your own embarrassment—if some Macedonian believers came with me and found that you weren’t ready after all I had told them! 5 So I thought I should send these brothers ahead of me to make sure the gift you promised is ready. But I want it to be a willing gift, not one given grudgingly.

6 Remember this—a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop. 7 You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. “For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.” 8 And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others. 9 As the Scriptures say,

“They share freely and give generously to the poor.
Their good deeds will be remembered forever.”[d]

10 For God is the one who provides seed for the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, he will provide and increase your resources and then produce a great harvest of generosity in you.

11 Yes, you will be enriched in every way so that you can always be generous. And when we take your gifts to those who need them, they will thank God. 12 So two good things will result from this ministry of giving—the needs of the believers in Jerusalem[f] will be met, and they will joyfully express their thanks to God.

13 As a result of your ministry, they will give glory to God. For your generosity to them and to all believers will prove that you are obedient to the Good News of Christ. 14 And they will pray for you with deep affection because of the overflowing grace God has given to you.

This reminds me of my assertion that most scriptures on giving in the new testament are actually talking about giving to the poor but it is our preachers that twist it to mean giving to the church, most of the passages recently posted on this page re-inforce that assertion but i am sure my darling pilgrim.1 would not see it that way.

solosimple:
In the book of Acts, at every point the Apostles came together with good reports of what the Lord has done through them and for them, they always gave thanks to God but not in any case did anyone among them give offering to another one. Jesus himself told a man that he healed that he should go home and tell his household what The Lord has done for him, he didn't tell him to take anything to the temple. Thanksgiving and giving of offering are too different things that ought not to be married together. Give thanks always(to God). Also, it's not wrong to give offering in Xtian gathering but it should follow a particular relevant need and must be done with order. See example in 1Cor 16:1-3.
Note that the need in 1Cor 16 that was cited is to help the poor. So, be sure you know what you are giving for before you start giving.

The passage you just mentioned above is one of the passages being twisted to justify the unbiblical collection of mandatory weekly offeringgs being collected by most churches today and instead of using it to help the poor as the bible directed they are keeping it for themselves under the guise that they are using it to "run the church". Talk of stealing from the poor.