₦airaland Forum

debosky:
Don't misunderstand - at it's root, tithe means 10% (or some other percentage) . Moses and Jacob paid tithes outside of the mosaic law (albeit in single instances) so you cannot define tithes ONLY on the basis of mosaic law.

The law is unprofitable in the context of the passage quoted, but giving in itself (which is the root of tithes) is not unprofitable. This is why I said tithing AS A PRINCIPLE (not the specific mosaic practice spoken of in Hebrews) was not condemned.

Anyone collecting tithes on the premise of the levitical order of collecting tithes due to no inheritance in Canaan is obviously wrong.

That is exactly what this thread seeks to address. Most preachers preach tithes based on the levitical law and wrongly present it to christians as compulsary. This thread seeks to enlighten christians on the truth about tihes so that they can make an informed decision to tithe or not to. You would agree with me that most christians tithe becos they don't know the truth and they have been mis-led into doing it. I know i sound very agrressive against tithes preachers and that is becos i not only feel pained cause i have been taken for a ride and abused by preachers we are supposed to trust would tell us the truth, i am also appalled at the fact that the fear of God is no longer in the clergy and preachers are freely using the name of God to fleece his children. John 8: 32 Ye would know the truth and the truth shall set you free _{[of the bondage of compulsary tithing]}

Pastor AIO:
Not difficult at all. The grid of jewish exegesis clearly states that Oxen stand for ALL species of labor. If our officials are labouring somewhere then according to biblical understanding they have every right to chop from the same place where they labour.

This perhaps aptly explains why some pastors feel it is their civil right to divert church funds for personal purposes.  But on a more serious note if we are to apply morals[which is central to christianity] and other christian teachings it would conflict with the central theme of the christian message. This again shows how easily the bible can be twisted to justify personal biases and opinions.

Incidentally the National stadium has a sitting capacity of less than 50,000. I don't know what the staning capacity is though.

debosky:
Let any misconceptions be cleared up and the truth taught in churches.

Tithing is not an obligation - If you decide to give 10% (or any percentage for that matter) of your income, you should do it voluntarily and out of a cheerful heart. Tithing as a principle was never condemned in the bible, neither was it a practise of the new testament church. Jesus did not condemn tithing, but taught giving in general something of the heart, done in worship of God.

'Non-tithers' shouldn't condemn those who tithe however - let each man give as he purposes in his heart. Do not take it upon yourselves to claim someone is 'under the law' or 'not acting in faith'.

Sowing and reaping remain a divine principle of God - if you give you shall receive. In this manner, there is nothing wrong in principle (in my opinion) in teaching from Malachi 3 regarding giving, as long as it is not taught as obligatory.

If I personally decide to use the 'tithe' or 10% as my giving level, I am free to do so - If a church/gathering of believers decides to adopt 10% as a giving level, it is also free to do so, provided that it is not presented as an obligation.

Apart from the fact that tithing as defined in the bible bears absolutely no similarity to the twisted version that is being imposed on christians today by a manipulative clergy tithing was clearly condenmed in the bible in hebrews 7; please note that it is the same commandment to tithe in verse 5 that is being condenmed as weak and unprofitable in verse 18

Hebrews 7:5-19:

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


In summary tithing was cancelled in verse 12 and condenmed in verse 18. That apart verse 13& 14 make it clear that even Jesus[our high priest] was excluded from collecting tithes becuase he is from the tribe of juda and not the tribe that serves at the altar[levites]and by law only those from the descendants of levi were entitled to collect tithes. Now if our lord Jesus christ was dis-qualified from collecting tithes, how much less the imposters that claim to be representing him?

eghosaobas:
kunle,you are getting me more confused,can you butress your point pls.

I don't think i am the one confusing you, it is those that make the baseless claim that christians are not supposed to consume alcohol that are causing the confusion. I suggest you go to them to show you from the bible were it is written christians shouldn't drink despite the fact that christ used to drink as evidenced in the scripture i quoted earlier.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg4041689#msg4041689 date=1245235191]Kunle, if you practise anything different from what you read in that verse, keep it to yourself. You're full of looking at what others are doing and never looking at your own self. I know what I do, I understand that verse, and I quoted it in reply to what was said prior to my reply.[/quote]Just as i thought, youwould not be able to answer the question.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 ]If you're not inclined to tithing, leave those who desire to tithe to freely do so. And unless you want to deny what your own Bible teaches, it's clear that Christianity IS a religion - let's stop all these half-truths and 'sweet denials'.

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this,
To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
and to keep himself unspotted from the world.[/quote]I just thought i'd asked, even if christianity is a religion is it the way it is defined above that it is being practised by most churches today? Is it that way you practise your own christianity or is it by practising man made doctrines and obsolete rites[tithes, first fruits e.t.c] of the old testament which are NOT relvant to true christian worship.

[quote author=petres_007 link=topic=282213.msg4037684#msg4037684 date=1245167758]Osazu,

I think what Kunle was trying to point out is that the bible in its essence, its message, principles, doctrines is correct and inspired of God - infallible. But because for example, it had to be copied/translated by human hands, does contain minor errors/omissions/contradictions.[/quote]Thanx bro

osazu:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In view of the above scripture ur opinion is totally in error.both the old and new new testament are refer as scriptures.In short Jesus quoted old testasment several times and validated it.It is said that the NT is built on prophecied of the OT.

The Truth is the BiBLE is the FLAWLESS WORD OF GOD.God bless u.

If you know anything about bible history, you would realize that the bible was not compiled until at least 250 years after Paul wrote that letter to timothy and what was considered as scripture by the early christians is not a 100% match as to what was passed to us as scripture as a number of books were omitted and added by the roman catholic church that compiled it. That is apart from the conflicts in over 100 translations to the english language alone which are very glaring. That apart God or Jesus NEVER proclaimedthe bible to be their flawless word so i would suggest you stop blaspheming and twisting the word of God.

Apart from the above i present to you scriptural evidence from the bible itself that so called men of God have been twisting the scriptures long before the bible was even compiled as a collection of books.

Jeremiah 8:8-10:

   8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise because we have the word of the Lord,”      when your preachers have twisted it by writing lies?    9 These wise teachers will fall
     into the trap of their own foolishness,
  for they have rejected the word of the Lord.
     Are they so wise after all?
  10 I will give their wives to others
     and their farms to strangers.
  From the least to the greatest,
     their lives are ruled by greed.
  Yes, even my prophets and priests are like that.
     They are all frauds.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg4037451#msg4037451 date=1245166196]I know you have no clue what you often try to argue but just like to occupy space.[/quote]With the risk of sounding arrogant i am quite certain that you know fully well in your heart that i am quite verse as far as this issue of tithes is concerned and that i can not be faulted biblically speaking by any human being that brains in his/her head.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg4037451#msg4037451 date=1245166196]Let people do as their hearts are led - they didn't deep their hands into your pocket, nor did Christianity begin and end with you or me. Please. Even you up until tomorrow cannot show from Scripture the very tithes you called "perfectly okay", so what is all this wasteful talk that you keep pointing at others when you cannot show your own?[/quote]That is the problem people tithe not becos their hearts are led to tithe but becos they have been deceived into beliving that God requested it from them, the money is meant for God, not doing it is a grievious sin, They would be "blessed" by doing it and they are believe they are giving to "GOD". As the topic of this passage implies pastors should tell their congregation the whole truth about tithes before allowing them to be "led" by the spirit of mamon to give their "tithes"

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg4037451#msg4037451 date=1245166196]I didn't "decide" to define Christianity as religion - the verse I quoted was not penned down by me or any of my relatives. Open your own Bible to that verse and strike it out if you see "religion" there - it won't be anything new. No matter how you slice it, Christianity was called a RELIGION in that verse in your Bible and there's nothing you can do about it. The excuse you're making was not stated in my reply earlier. Christians can and should let others live their lives as they see what the Bible teaches, not because someone else is grumbling about what they hope should not be there.[/quote]My exact point is what is highlighted in red above but today unfortunately it is not what the bible teaches that matters but what the pastor teaches or the pastor's twisted interpretation of what the bible teaches.

osazu:
Some times i read the bible and i wonder if I am reading something inspired by God or just stories written by mere men.
Check this out;

In genesis God told adam that if he ate the fruit he will surely die.ADAM ATE THE FRUIT BUT LIVED OVER NINE HUNDRED YEARS.
Jesus told peter that you will deny me three times before the cock crows. BUT IT IS REPORTED IN THE BIBLE THAT THE COCK CREW AFTER PETER DENIED JESUS TWICE.
Also jesus told the criminal on the cross that today you will be with me in paradise BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT JESUS WAS IN THE GRAVE FOR THREE DAYS BEFORE RESURECTION  SO WHERE WAS THE CRIMINAL ALL THIS WHILE

Kuru from ur post,it clear that u not actually experience CHRIST.Relationship with God is not of head knowledge but of the heart.when the true experience comes into to ur heart, then u have more than conviction that the word God is absolutely true

I enjoined u to sincerely crave to know him ,I mean true desire springing forth from the heart will turn God minifestation to u.I m speaking from experience,God manifested himself to me in a very mighty way when my question could not b answered by any one ,I turn to God with the whole my heart and He spoke to me in very distinct way ;my traveil was solve and since them I hear His voice clearly on issues of life.

My bro there is no greater thing to invest our lives but to ensure our salvation 4 enternity is sure ,the world of the now is passing away,this is not  just religon stuff ,it is more real than u being alife.

Osazu it is clear from your posts that you cannot distinguish the diffrence between the bible and the true gospel of our lord Jesus christ. Kuru asked very logical and reasonable questions and if you did not have answers to his question you should have just kept quiet instead of questioning his faith.

@Kuru
Whilst i do not want to confuse or discourage you, the truth is that the bible is not 100% accurate as the "church" would like you to believe. Even though it largely contains the word of God, it was written with human hands and human imperfection. Also during various translations over the last 2,000 years errors and ommissions have found their way into it. In all the best way to appreciate the bible is to focus on the principles and teachings of christ[which is very different from old testament bible] and what he stood for and i believe the holy spirit would reveal the rest to you.

davidylan:


1. Beer is not the same as wine.
2. What is the meaning of "drinking in moderation"?

Whilst wine is not the same as beer they are both alcoholic drinks. That apart wine contains a lot more alcohol[11-15%] as opposed to beer which contains [3-7%]. It is obvoius that a certain group of poorly schooled christians condem the drinking of beer becos of it's alcoholic contents. Is that not hypocritcal when viewed in the fact that Jesus used to consume alcohol[wine] regularly and there is not one single instruction in the bible that urges christians not to consume alcohol other than the warning to drink in moderation which in it self means we are allowed to drink as long as we do it moderately.

The undeniable evidence is presented below:

Matthew 11:18-19:

18 For John didn’t spend his time eating and drinking, and you say, ‘He’s possessed by a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!’ But wisdom is shown to be right by its results.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luke 7:33-34:
33 For John the Baptist didn’t spend his time eating bread or drinking wine, and you say, ‘He’s possessed by a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man,[a] on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!’

New Living Translation (NLT)

dlox01:

im sure u dont know what ur saying, even at 3.2 million bogus figure u called, Jay Z n 50 concert would kick it hands down in this country if its free.what is 3.2 million when these guys sell 10mill copies at 10 dollars each (no be free o)if it was like oyakhilome's rapsody leaflets where u put anything u have 'a big lie',  50 cents n jay would have done 1 billion copies sef. We are talking big promos here not sending girls or curled hair boys to do door to door marketing o!it will shock u dat 80% of love world peeps bump jay n 50 in private.make u dey there make dem dey decieve u,  

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg4034923#msg4034923 date=1245135966]If you're not inclined to tithing, leave those who desire to tithe to freely do so. And unless you want to deny what your own Bible teaches, it's clear that Christianity IS a religion - let's stop all these half-truths and 'sweet denials'.

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this,
To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
and to keep himself unspotted from the world.[/quote]Even if you decide to define christianity as a religion, it's principles and practises are way different from other world religions and that does not justify the forcing in of twisted and false doctrines such as tithes, seed offerings, first fruit offerings, thanks giving offerings, faith offerings e.t.c borrowed from Judaism religion which were never taught by the apostles or christ. And before you start quoting scriptures were Paul asked christians to sow seeds kindly include the part were the purpose of the seeds was stated; and that was to take care of poor and needy christians unlike what our greedy and selfish preachers practise and teach today

Most of them need to repent and give their lives to christ.

Wow!!!! brilliant topic i am just seeing it. I beleive questions raised in this topic need to be thoroughly thrashed out so we all can collectively have a better understanding of the bible. in my own understanding the bible is NOT one book neither was it written for just one purpose or to just one set of people. It is basically a collection of books estimated to have been written over a three thousand year period covering the history and the revelation of God to the jewish people and the life and times of our Lord Jesus christ. It is also the set of books which the early church fathers[catholic priests] in their own wisdom and for debatable reasons believed were the truely inspired books. I have gone into a bit of history becos i believe the bible cannot be properly understood if we don't know it's history or it's make up even though the christian religious establishment would like to pass it off as the 100% accurate word of God a careful scrutiny of the bible would reveal that it is definitely not 100% accurate and even the bible or any other divine records does not claim it to be the undiluted word our preachers claim it to be. That said i would like to define the bible as the revelation of God to man written by men and corrupted by men over the ages. Even till this day our preachers are still trying their best to corrupt it thus their penchant to twist scriptures especially in the pentecostal fold were they are less accountable.

That said to understand the bible one must take scriptures in it's proper text and read not just verses but the whole chapter for better undertanding. You must know whom the scripture was addressed to and for what purpose before you decide what is applicable to us. Also christians must also be tutored as to were Judaism stopped in the bible and were christianity began and the differnces between them. [cos some churches are fond of bringing judaism practises in to christian just becos it is in the bible] even though they are not christian requirements

The truth is that this topic is enough to write a whole book on, i guess at this point i would just sit back and contribute to various views and opinions less i yak too much and throw it off course.

davidylan:
One important characteristic of the early church was that even though they were scattered around different cities, they all were in one accord. What do you see today? Giant religious empires where the "senior pastor" is Lawd over all.

Imagine if the early church existed today . . . i doubt Paul's letter to the Ephesian church would be permitted to be read to the Galatians . . . afterall he is not their "GO".

fyneguy:
Ok Kunle

And if you are convinced, you will fully become a member and probably mature in spiritual things and quit rubbing religiousity on our faces.

May be this will put u on the positive side of progress in your christian life.

Much love, bro.

And for the record this church i attended re-inforced and further convinced me that i am threading the right part. Most of what i have be saying on this forum against the instituitionalized church were confirmed there and i can actually confirm to you that i am making progress in my christian life whilst the likes of you are stuck in "church" life.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=283670.msg4030816#msg4030816 date=1245072239]That is where you're getting it all wrong. First, the very huge mistake that adherents of the HCMs make is to start out being accusative. That is a very wrong approach to issues like this.[/quote]For the record, i am not an HCM adherent. I am only instrested in whatever movement would promote the undiluted gospel and pracitcalize it.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=283670.msg4030816#msg4030816 date=1245072239]Second, I don't know any true church that does not participate in 'giving' in one form or another. This thread is not about what people do for "christians to give more"; and if any Christian feels that he/she does not want to give, let them keep their worries to themselves - such complaints are inconsequential with respect to the very core of our being Christians.[/quote][quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=283670.msg4030816#msg4030816 date=1245072239]As i have always pointed oout to you christian giving in the bible was always about giving to meet the needs of believers and less priviledge and not to "run" churches as is done this days. Whilst i am not saying it is wrong to give to run churches i believe the focus of chritian giving as been completely lost by the church[/quote][quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=283670.msg4030816#msg4030816 date=1245072239]There's nothing special about your own HCM that some of us don't already know. But as we progress this discussion and identify the issues of our worries, you might come to see that your concerns are surprisingly stretched out of proportion. Trust me. [/quote]As i said earlier i am not an HCM adherent neither do i belong to one

TV01:
It takes a certain kind of proud - unthinking and unfeeling - religious hypocrite to post the kind of disdain and abuse that you have done above, subsequently labelling or proclaiming it as love, inherently suggesting it's "Christian" love.

Unfortunately this type abounds on NL.

_{does anyone actually discuss issues or topics anymore? is anyone capable. Lord, pray  save us from the invasion of the "Institutionalised Church Drones" ICD.}

My bro how you dey? Trust you had a blessed weekend.

fyneguy:
Ok Kunle

And if you are convinced, you will fully become a member and probably mature in spiritual things and quit rubbing religiousity on our faces.

May be this will put u on the positive side of progress in your christian life.

Much love, bro.

Thanx for your unsolicited advice. But then i have some advice for you as well flee CEC plc and Oyakhilome he is a typical example of the false teachers the apostles warned us about. His doctrine is from the pits of hell.

@Pigrim.1
As you stated that you are starting this thread as a fallout of a thread i earlier statrted and seeing the line of your discourse here let be correct a notion that i might have earlier put across wrongly. Whilst i am not against large churches per se, it is how they achieve this large ness that sometimes bothers me. Though i would not like to derail this thread by stating obvious examples, in the bid to "grow" the church all sorts of false and twisted doctrines are introduced to the gatherings to encourage, stimulate, co-erce, black mail or intimidate christians to give more. They claim they are building a house for God[which actually sounds ridiculous]. Churches go into competition with each other and the focus is eventaully lost. While Jesus was on this planet he had large gatherings which he preached to. [remember sermon on the mount] but he never turned it into a money generation issue whilst claiming he wants to use it to spread the gospel. On the contrary he fed them all when they were hungry[free of charge]. So the focus should not be whether the church is large or not but rather that the church does not succumb to wordly desires whilst claiming that they are trying to serve God.

marvis joy:
kunle,do you mean that drinking of beer is right? pls i want to know,so that i can start taking what i have missed for these years.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in drinking beer as long as it is done in moderation as far as the bible is concerned if you read the verse i quoted earlier you would discover that Jesus christ himself used to consume alcoohol regularly and the same hypocrites that condenm alcohol consumption today accused him of being a wine bibber[which means drunkard]in that passage.

And for the benefit of those who still do not get the improt of my decision and starting this thread i want to happily annouce to every body that based on this thread i got invited to gathering of believers [commonly called church] by petre_007. I worshipped with them yesterday and i must confess it was truely refreshing. Even though it was a very small gathering,[less than 25] i was truely blessed and i felt so much excitement inside of me through out the service. The pastor struck me as a teacher that was actually out to impart truth and knowledge of the scriptures to the flock and the sermon was on christian history which i have never heard being preached in any church i have worshipped before and there was no tithe or offering collection and best of all the pastor allowed questions after he finished his teachings. One thing is definite i would be worshipping with them next sunday and if in deed i am convinced of the doctrine they preach in the church i intend to pitch my tent with them and mkae the place my regular place of worship. What makes this place different and truely refreshing was the zeal and passion with which the pastor was empowering the flock and the obvious concious efforts to stick with biblical injunctions in co-ordinating the church. I recommend the church to any one who genuiely seeks the truth and wants to be empowered in the word.

Just as i thought many people would mis-understand me whilst some would deliberately choose to to mis-represent me. As some people on NL have already labelled me a "church critic" of some sorts and would love only to pick holes in what ever i write whether i am in order or not. That said i would also like to comment that a lot of people have displayed on this thread that they don't know the difference between church[body of believers] and "church" which is a place of "worship" they attend. As david rightly observed my problem is with Intituitionalized christianity and not the body of believers.[even though some clowns i didn't ask are trying to "correct" this observation of his].

As petre rightly suggested i would also like to encourage all true believers to study the new testament well especially the Epistles and Acts to know the standard set for the church by christ throught Apostles and compare it to the charade going on today. As some people have rightly noted i am genuinely seeking to know God better and do his will but some people cannot see beyond the indoctrination they have received in their"churches".

Some people have also wondered why i decided to anounce on Nairaland that i would stop attending "church". Well the answer is two fold:
[1] Discussions on nairaland provoked me to study the bible better and have a clearer understanding of the word of God and the true gospel of Christ so i thougt it was in order since nairaland was partly involved in the decision.

[2] I felt the need to provoke other christians to study their bible better and see what is wrong with the way christianity is being practised today. As i said earlier i do not seek any body to follow in my foot steps as they really have to understand what they are doing and not just looking for an lazy way of practising christianity. As a christian i am also moral obligated to share the truth with others.

Unfortunately a lot of haters[who claim to be christians] here on NL have not bothered to understand my views and bible based position before launching verbal attacks on my person. I beleive any true christian would have been more interested in showing me from scriptures why i might be taking a wrong decision, but so far it is just blind criticism i am getting. Also a couple of people who spoke on gathering of believers as exemplified in hebrews 10:25 failed to get the import of my post and they also don't realize the distinction between church as a place of worship and church as a gathering of believers

I thought i'd post one or two articles here it might prove to be very enlighten for those who truly seek the truth.

The Church

The Church View:
      A church is a building that is used for assembly of members of that church, which teaches and practices doctrines, generally determined, and enforced by a master religious organization. The function of the individual church varies according to the edicts of the controlling religious leaders, but follows general guidelines. The indoctrination of the membership in the beliefs of the master religion is a prime function, with absolute loyalty strongly emphasized. This is accomplished with weekly meetings during which the membership is indoctrinated in and conditioned to follow the rules of the religion by a leader variously called a pastor, priest, or minister.
      Members are expected to pay a certain percentage of their income to maintain the church building, pay the salaries and living expenses of the church employees, and other costs related to the promotion and functions of the master religion. Seldom is even a small percentage of church income and effort used to serve the community in which the church is situated, or the world in general.  Most civic projects are done to present a token image of charity, which is aimed at attracting new members to increase the power of the church in size and financial holdings.

The Bible View:
      A group of like-minded people who live in a communal setting and sacrifice all physical belongings to support a work totally devoted to charity. There is a staff, whose job is to feed and clothe the poor and infirmed, and many have the power to perform miracles. One basic law, love for one another, is the guiding principle. Pompous appearance, righteous pronouncements, and the advertising of charitable acts are condemned. There is no command to support any building based organization whose purpose is to serve only the interests of those members accepted into the membership.  Pastors, pulpits, and pews were not mentioned, and neither weekly meetings, nor any other scheduled meetings were held or commanded. Those called out of society and into the first church donated all their earthly goods to the group as a whole and it was clearly stated none of the called were in need of anything.
      Virtually nothing, which is accepted practice in the modern church, can either be found or supported in scripture, from the building the church is located in to the methods used to support that church. Neither the collection plate, the enforced gathering on Sunday, the open prayer, the support for political candidates, the party behind the pulpit, nor the pulpit itself bear any resemblance to the practice of the first church. Miracles, prophecy, and healing were common amongst the members of the first church.     

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15

What Is Religion?

       The word religion appears only 4 times in the Bible, three of those times in direct reference to the religion of the Jews.  The one time it refers to religion in general is in this verse:
♦  "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27)

What is the Church?
      Does the above verse sound like the standard practice of today’s Christian churches or does it sound more like this verse?
♦  “ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” (Romans 16:17)

What Was Peter's Commission?
      After the resurrection, Jesus confronted Peter, and with triple emphasis, gave him a very simple and specific command, to feed the people. 
♦  John 21:14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead. 15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
      The word "feed" is taken from two different words in these verses.  In verses 15 and 17 the word translated is bosko, pronounced bos'-ko; to pasture; by extension to, fodder; reflexively, to graze.  In verse 16 it is taken from poimaino, pronounced poy-mah'-ee-no; to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, supervisor).  Therefore, the commission is to feed and lead, with double emphasis on the directive to literally feed the followers.  Does this not clearly indicate that Jesus clearly chose Peter as the founder of the first church, and is it not obvious that this would also be the focus of the church?

Helping the poor and indigent is at the very core of the first church’s focus and practices.

The First Church

      The first chapter of Acts, which is actually the second part of the Book of Luke, details the first actions of the first church. Jesus began the formation of the first church before his crucifixion as can be well established from the gospels.  The beginning of Acts shows that this book is details the final actions of Jesus until he was taken up:
♦  Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2  Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3  To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

      The next verses refer to the directive that the apostles and disciples were to wait for a special transfer of spiritual energy to be imparted to them after his ascension:
♦  Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.  5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?  7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.   

       In the next three verses Jesus is beamed aboard a cloud as the apostles have a very close encounter and are told that Jesus would return in the same cloud he just boarded.     
♦  Acts 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10.  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11.  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

       After the ascension, the group returns to wait for the promise:
♦  Acts 1:12  Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 13.  And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

       The Spirit of God Enters Mankind and the Miracles Begin:
♦  Acts 2:1.  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.  2.  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.  3.  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.  4.  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.  5.  And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6.  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

mactao:
The just live by faith.

Faith in who?? Christ or your pastor/church?

mactao:
I couldn't read the whole thread from page 1. But I'd like us to realise a few things.

There is only one church on earth. The church according to the Bible refers to all the followers of Christ.


25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
KJV

You probably have seen that verse before, but my point is this - if there is something that makes you not want to attend church, then it is anti-Christ (literally).

Evidently you have no clue what true christianity is all about and obviously as you admitted you haven't fully read the thread but if you had read only the original post you would not be making thrashy statements as highlighted above. If you thing christ re-sides in a church building then you need to have your head examined.

ajokeakin:
kunle,do you mean that alcoholic drink is biblical?pls i want to know so that i can start with what i am missing.

Yes it is absolutely 100% biblical infact Jesus Christ was also a social drinker you can confrim this fact in luke 7:33-34 @ Matthew 11:18-19

KunleOshob:
That's true, Pilgrim.1 why are you so hell bent on defending the the antics of this tithe preaching pastors even when it is obvious they go about preaching it the wrong way. As christians are we meant to condone twisting of the scriptures?? Much as you argue that "a lot" of christians give tithe willingly [with the the full knowledge that they are not oblidged to] we know that most preachers preachit as compulsary which is wrong. My question is why are you so defensive of something you have agreed is wrong?

@Pilgrim.1
Still waiting for your response to the above.

This thread seems to be getting out of hand   however i would like to make one thing emphatically clear: My christian faith and beliefs remain unshaken, infact i believe i am growing more as a christian and getting to understand the will of christ better. The problem is most people can not differentiate between the instituitional church they attend, their pastors and God/christ. Another problem is most people that claim to be christians hardly study the bible and understand what it is all about they depend on their pastors who have vested interests to tutor them. Whilst i would not recommend the decision i have taken to any one [as you really need a very indept understanding or have a spiritual re-awakening before you can take such a decision] i would like to encourage all christians to start actively searching the scriptures[especially new testament] to know the will of God.

The problem is not about the church i attend but rather more about man made instituitions parading as "house of God" which in itself is blasphemous and contrary to the scriptures. I discovered that most churches as they are constituited are contrary to the teachings of christ and their focus and the emphasis is wrong.

As i said earlier i would seek out other believers and continue to study and fellowship with them. Already as a result of this thread petre_007 as introduced me to his "church" and from the way he describes it, it sounds like a group of believers who are earnestly seeking the truth and striving to do the will of God. I intend to visit them soon and might probably join their gathering if i am convinced of what goes on their.