₦airaland Forum

Double thread!

Ubenedictus: I post this for the sake of a good discussion. The catholic church was never big on tithes so i feel confident to say that the church in question has nothing to do with tithe. Malta was the island where st paul shipweck landed him (read the bible) and like all places the apostles visited a big church or even a basilica is built. Such church is also built in a big city that has a large number of catholic. The church in question is from the middle ages and that was the time of christain art. At the time that church was built those tapestries were not that costly nor was the painting. A good example of such is the basilicas of rome, the is a new basilica in spain (named after the holy family) both the old and new were middle age stucture the new one is built(it is not totally completed) on free will donations. St peters was built on charity (not to mention the abuse of selling indulgence) st lateran was donated to the church by an emperor. The lists of basilicas and the great church of the middle ages go on and on but nobody ask for tithes. The protestants of today have big church but it is a know fact that they dont display their belief in art.

Thanks for the info!

This fraud called Benny Hinn.

The same guy that had a scandal with a divorced woman, Paula White?

GTFO!

justaqad: either ur being dishonest or plain ignorant,islam as a religion is not specific to the arabs,muhammad never invented any religion.jesus believed in the oneness and superiority of God(monotheism),as other prophets before him.Abraham was not an arab but he was a muslim.

Islam originated with an Arab. No Muhammad, no Islam. Anything that predates Arabs or Arabic language (eg Abraham) can not be muslim.

Jesus, existed before Muhammed and lived during a time when there were no Arabs in Jerusalem. Furthermore, Jesus can be at best, described as a Jew when it comes to religion. How can one be a Jew by religion and a muslim at the same time? Jesus explained and interpreted the Jewish laws from the old testament. Clearly, he was a Jew by religion.

Sorry, but Islam can not claim that Jesus was a muslim. That would make Islam totally false

fubbyy: Nice one @ mak-d-star

You should see my reply;
https://www.nairaland.com/948243/how-did-you-became-atheist#10942223

fellis: omg.
I missed this part before.
Logicboy, I honestly wanted to come back and compliment you on being an intelligent man but then I saw this statement.
I wrote, "funny but true, I know a case like this" abi?
Where did I mention that the one case represented atheists or that atheists with atheists parents don't exist?
Anyway, maybe you live in Nigeria and so you made that post at night when you were sleepy.

You should realise that Madstar's comment was talking about all Nigerian atheists and for you to say it is true is clearly wrong. You indirectly accepted that your case applies to all Nigerian atheists. Next time, read comments before you agree with them.

mak-d-star:
And i made my comment because i have been observing you and people like you all over nl

All you ever do is continue to attack the same God you are supposed to believe doesn't exist. You know next to nothing about atheism and i suggest you go read up.

It's high time you started enlightening us about your own belief instead of always running around insulting everybody's belief.

1)Did you observe my parents as well? Ode. Why did you mention atheists' parents and their upbringing?

2) Atheism is not a belief and I have stated why I am an atheist on this thread. You need to read more often.

3) Like a hypocrite, you ignore the christians that call for fire and brimstone on the unbelievers on NL. You forget that christians are theones who go from house to house preaching or in public shouting with loudspeakers. I have every right to debunk religious lies.

mak-d-star:
Mof, if atheism were a religion, you are a perfect example of a fanatic. You go about raving about things you know nothing about. It's getting old, its time to grow up.

It is obvious you have something against the christian God, cuz why the 'like a real christian' talk? I hadnt even mentioned i was one.

You didnt need to say that you're a christian. You put forward some christian talking points that I heard before about atheists. Sorry if you're not a christian.

I am not a fanatic. Do you see me preaching about atheism everyday with a new message like christians or muslims? Do you see me suggesting atheist books like how christians suggest christian books?

mak-d-star:
Secondly, who says the opposite of atheism is islam or christianity. Our fore fathers weren't atheists, last time i checked, there was something called African Traditional Religion, our forefathers believed in the existence of a supreme being more than most of us now. So please spare the white man.

It would be better to follow a religion that is from your home country than one that has been used to subjugate your forefathers

mak-d-star:
And you mention forced christianity? The white man came to Nigeria mainly to explore and to trade, bringing christianity into Nigeria was just the extra icing, their first churches were built in evil forests, their first members were outcasts, no one was forced to go to church or why didnt they go to the North and force the muslims to be christians too?

Or are you referring to people who were sold into slavery. Slavery! How are we so sure that still doesn't exist in a more subtle form now. Afterall, all of a sudden many people from the developed world think atheism should be the trend now, and all of a sudden, some Nigerians i know 'here in the UK' are following suit.

You are a real dummy. The white man came to explore and trade? Spoken like a true slave to the white man. The Europeans came to exploit and dominate. The evidence lies in the colonialism and the transatlantic slave trade.

The first church in Nigeria was not built in an evil forest. Get your facts right. The first church was even supported by a learned Nigerian man who was a former slave- Ajayi Crowther

Atheism is not just a trend, it is the consequence of learning about various religion and a basic understanding of science. There exists no evidence for God.

mak-d-star:
We all know of christian fanatics who would rather maim their child than let him find God for himself, we all know of muslim fanatics, like some terrorist groups, and ofcourse atheist fanatics who like you, are running around nairaland, throwing themselves head first into fights whenever God is mentioned.

It is because of unaccomodating people in the above category that Nigeria is the way it is.

And fyi, you didn't need to call me an ode. The replies can prove who the ode really is. The thread said 'why did you become and atheist'
in simpler words, you were asked 'what convinced you that God does not exist' and your reply in simpler words states 'something God did, convinced me that God doesn't exist'. How lame is that?

You call me a fanatic, but ignore christians and muslim posters who post their religious doctrines almost very morning. Your rank hypocrisy is disgusting. What have I done other than challenge notions of God? Is that your definition of fanaticism? Are you mentally challenged?

My reply is clear. I mentioned slavery as the breaking point and then went on to mention evolution and clearly stated that there is no evidence for God. You are a real ode for remixing and reducing my reply to fit your bias.

Mr_Anony: You see my problem with atheists is this: They do not say "I don't know if there is a God or not" rather they say "there is no God" yet when asked how they know this for sure they babble and beat around the bush. My friend bashing religions and telling someone else that he/she is wrong does not automatically make you right.

Don't just blurt out "God of the gaps" explain to me in regard to my argument how this "God of the gaps" theory of yours actually refutes it.
I don't know If you actually have read that point at all. The first cause cannot possibly be physical else it would be subject to time and space and hence cannot possibly be the originator of all things physical. This logic is very simple.

Did I not explain why your argument is classified as God of the gaps? Did you just willfully ignore that as usual? The scientists put out the big gang and then you just insert God in the parts that big bang can not explain.

You want to claim that the first cause can not be physical but you ignore 3 things;

-You are assuming that there is a first cause that is uncaused. What caused the first cause?
-The big bang theory relies is based on the universality of physical laws.
-The existence of the universe as a whole does not require a causal explanation. All causality presupposes the existence of something that acts as a cause. To demand a cause for all of existence is to demand a contradiction: if the cause exists, it is part of the existence; if it does not exist, it cannot be a cause.

pazienza: Nigerian's are the worst,whenever i visit foreign websites like goal.com, i would notice that Nigerians are the only people that will make statements like: by God's grace chelsea will win, God please help man u,insha allah chelsea will win...

Worse- at the end of Nigerian/Nollywood films, you see "to God be the glory"

vedaxcool: Really you can do better than this, is his statement the catholic church official position on such issue? Whatever your excuse is, it does not defend your monumental gaffe that the church is divided or christianity is upside down!

It's good that I gave you a chance to show how desperate you are! You are truly ignorant! When I discuss Islamic issue, I stick to what I know. But you, out of anger and desperation because you have a grudge against me, you rushed to say that I created a gaffe.

These are the two things you are ignorant about;

1) The catholic church is very uniform in it's doctrine. A bishop of a nation is an authority and his words are usually in line with the catholic doctrine. You dont get to be a bishop without knowing the doctrine of the church which is written down and has precedents dating to 2000 years.


2) The bishop's answer is totally in line ith the catholic church official position. If you understand the doctrine of purgatory, you will see that atheists can go to heaven in the catholic faith.

3) Catholics accept purgatory, protestants do not. Christianity is clearly fragmented



It is clear that I did not make any gaffe and you have shown yourself to be an ignorant troll. Everybody can see that I have just intellectually destroyed you

Mr Anony, you are willfully ignorant. If you can not see how God of the gaps destroys your point that God is the first cause, then there is no hope for you. You claim that the first cause is not physical with no proof whatsoever and expect me to take you seriously? Sorry but scientists make claims after testing their theories and calculations. They did not pu
ll out the theory from nowhere without proof. How can you just state that the first cause was not physical? Any proof?


My answers were spot on but you chose to babble and claim that I was beating around the bush. You foolishly say that the origin of the universe is not a gap when we clearly do no know a lot of things about the origin of the universe. That is a gap that science is clearly trying to close but you insert God with no proof and you now want to claim God of the gaps doesnt apply?


My answers are simple and to the point.

-God of the gaps destroy your first cause.
-The immorality of the bible destroys your notion of divine authority on morality
-I stated that there exists no proof of God. That should be enough reason not to believe in him. 2,000 years ad all religions have failed to accurately describe an omnipotent god.

Mr_Anony: I have given you reasons for God please give me reasons for no God by correctly refuting the premises I have formerly laid out



If I recall correctly, you have not debunked anything, so far you have only ranted on and on dancing around the point. a failed design isn't evidence for no design and no I will not search google, I want your argument. (I do not wave you away when you ask questions of God by refering you to google)

It is interesting to note that as this argument has progressed you have sounded more and more like the so called religious bigot you often declare other people to be. You have not given me one logical reason why your belief is true and yet you affirm it. From where I am standing, it is beginning to look more and more like blind faith.

Let me refresh your memory.........



To honestly debunk my argument, Please debunk my premises in this order; you have to first prove to me why there cannot possibly be a first cause (or at least the nature of your version of the first cause), why intelligent design cannot possibly be true, how objective morality can be achieved without God.......and lastly proof that Jesus Christ - contrary to the claims of Christians - definitely did not resurrect.

Sorry for insulting you but you are willfully ignorant. You chose to ignore my comment on your first cause. I totally debunked your first cause;

logicboy: 1) Because the big bang says that there is a cause to the universe, you can not just include god as the cause. I might as well include Thor as the cause. You dont jump from scientific calculations and theories into magical claims of the bible.

2) Your argument is called God of the Gaps. When we didnt know that diseases were caused by germs, we said God did it. When we did not know that the earth was round it was balsphemy to say it was round. When we didnt know about evolution, we said that God created man. Stop putting God in things we dont know.

3) Your argument for God is not shared by the people who have formulated the big bang theory. These people understand it better and so, you should not remix their theory with God. It is out of ignorance that you would argue for a christian God from the big bang, when genesis contradicts the formation of stars and solar systems.

Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

Note that genesis lies because the earth did not come before the sun.

As for your other points;

2) The bible has no authority on morality because it advocates evil itself. It regulates slavery, it clearly says that women must be kept silent in church, it shows God ordering the isrealites to commit genocide against the Amakelites and Canaanites, and my favourite; it is clearly bigoted against atheists;


Psalm 14:1
King James Version (KJV)
14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Morality is subjective.

3) There is no proof of Jesus doing those miracles and Jesus himself was racist to a Canaanite woman. Jesus also avoided talking about slavery that was common place during his time

4)You claim to know God yet you have never heard his voice, you have never seen him and you have never touched him. How do you know God?




As for your comment claiming that atheists have as much faith as a believer, you are talking nonsense. Atheists do not have faith- that is the point of atheism. We know for a fact that there exists no proof of your God. None. No proof. Why should atheists believe in him?

How do you know that God is not a woman?

Deep Sight: If you believe that prayer is merely "asking God to change fortunes" then I regret to say you have a poverty-stricken idea of what that word refers to in terms of a communication with God.

What makes you think "fortunes" always means "money"? You seem poverty stricken yourself!

tbaba1234: Well, it would help the muslims have a more powerful voice in global politics, and our countries will not be invaded at will.

- All arabs understand standard arabic, that will probably be the official language of an official caliphate. The caliphate would also include somalia, pakistan, malaysia, indonesia, Turkey, maybe Kazakhstan, albania, Uzbekistan, west african muslim countries like senegal mali e.tc.

- They will probably join the caliphate, we are all united by our faith.

- Egypt and Tunisia have voted in Islamic parties, Turkey has an Islamic party in power... Libya will do the same. The west (US) still has all the power but there is a gradual movement to re establish Islam in these countries. Secular systems have failed in muslim countries.

Thanks for your answer.

Nice write up.

However, christians will avoid

Deep Sight: ^^^ I cant see how the fact that stars have been exploding "since the dawn of time" contradicts what FELLIS said.

It doesnt contradict what Fellis said neither does it support what Fellis said. Two separate issues.

tug: I wonder why there's somuch fools with dead brains on nairaland, no wonder you guys are poor and retarded for life. You open your stinking nmouth to say shit about the holy spirit and to your creator...as if the ones you said about the bishop is not anough...GOD will in his anger fall on all who's saying rubish about this matter. May GOD VISIT ALL OF YOU. Goats!!!!!...

Yes, God should harm people. This is what Christianity teaches!

Mr_Anony: Lol, logicboy you are still beating about the bush how does the fact that we are having this conversation disprove God? being an atheist was your choice now I call upon you to defend that choice.

Performance of countries is irrelevant in this matter. Ok let me help you; You can put it thus:
"God does not exist because........"
"Your arguments for first cause and intelligent design are invalid because............"
"Your argument for objective morality is invalid because........."
"............Hence God does not and cannot possibly exist"

You cant disprove God's existence to 100% just like you cant disprove the toothfairy or Thor's existence. However, there is no reason to believe that God exists- there is no proof of God not one. End of story.

I have already debunked your first cause. Intelligent design has been debunked long ago. Intelligent design is nonsense, I wont waste my time anymore on educating people who are willfully ignorant. Google is there for you. Tell me, if the universe is not intelligently designed with exploding stars, failed solar systems and over 90% of the world's water being salt water?

fellis: When the religion was in its early stages in the Arab world, people still kept slaves, still practised slavery ardently, so if a directive to immediately put an end to slavery was issued, it would have been met with resistance and disobedience as slavery was a part of their ways of life, and so rules regarding keeping of slaves which would discourage the act were made. Rules such as the obligatory freeing of a slave as a penance for certain sins, directives to assist a slave financially when he wants to buy his freedom, discouraging the purchase of new slaves and so on.
The laws you quoted applied to those who already had slaves. Nowhere did the verses encourage slavery.

Allah fails to save those enslaved out of fear of resistance and disobedience? Why should I worship such a god?

fellis: Yes.
The world will not last forever, it will come to an end. That is what the Qur'an says, so the dying stars and failing solar system you speak of is actually part of the ordained order of the universe.

Nope. Stars have been exploding since the dawn of time.

Linmax: if this so called lawyer is not being carefull, he is going to loose his life and everytin he has. Its as if he doesn't knw who he is dealing with. I bet you! Whoever u are ?you are d next witch to be slapped because it is our ministry to slap. If you are opportuned, go ask the ota witches to tell you their experience that is if they are still alive. Try the God of this commission and see.

Does your christianity tell you to kill people for doing their job? Are you any different from Boko Haraam?

Mr_Anony: Sorry but I don't quite get your point. If you are trying to define love here is the bible's description of love according to 1corinthians 13 which I agree with.

Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out.Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
Whatever does not fit this description is not love.

But please let us not go on another tangent just yet. Respond to my challenge first: Tell me why God cannot possibly exist

By that definition, God does not love human beings. Jealous God indeed.

Okay, no more derailing.


The very fact that we are having this conversation shows that God doesnt exist. God made me an atheist

Why does God love atheists? The top 10 atheistic countries are performing better than the top 10 religious ones?

Mr_Anony: Subjective morals are not valid morals in my opinion. If anyone and everyone can define their morality in which ever way they choose, then there can be no true definition of morality hence rendering it inexistent.

With that reasoning, I can say that love is not existent. Beating of wives was once allowed in Islam and many other cultures. Keeping women silent is in the bible. However, ask any of the men that did such and they would claim that they love their wives. Some people do not kiss their wives in public, some people do no have sex with their wives when they have their cycle. Some people want their wives to have dinner ready before they come back from work. It is all love

vedaxcool: Well you did the misinformation, and just typical of atheism blame me for your own gaffe, let me take ur word as being true since I cannot view the video, in any case it still remain a monumental gaffe to claim based on this lone view of a priest that christianity is fragmented and upside down, nobody reasons that way even the jejunes would have brought a better interpretation of the incident but you again showed that you should not be taken seriously and you apparently just want to pass yourself as logical without acting and thinking in such a manner!

Islam has no authority unlike christianity (Catholic version) Which has a pope and Bishops. The catholic church is the greatest and oldest denomination of christianity.

When a bishop of a nation makes a statement, it is with authority. Mainstream islam doesnt have this.

iv4fb: @logicboy, from ur comments, its obvious you've been fighting tooth and nail to defeat those who oppose your doctrine and you've been trying to prove to as-many-as you can that there is no God-thats hell of a job, labour on!


@avecenna, martian, logicboy, kay_17, I pray my God will open your darkened understanding and show Himself to you guys and that he pardon your ignorance for they were necessitated by slavery, 'extremistic' learning, frustrations and complexities of the modern world.

Thanks for the encouragement! I i'll try and recruit more atheists and debunk creationists on the way, one Nairalander at a time!

As for God, you have never experienced God in your life, why are you telling people about a god you know nothing about? Have you seen God? Has he talked to you? What does his voice sound like?

Mr_Anony: @logicboy

I am sorry but I fail to see the grievousness of the quoted statements.
When I said atheists have no morals you know so well that I was implying that since morals are subjective - according to you being an atheist. Then there is no way anything can possibly be evil or good hence atheism seems to me a convenient denial of God so as to escape any moral obligations. It is much easier to say "I define my own morals" than to admit to the possibility of being wrong.
It is also interesting that you would take offense at comments directed at a "non-belief"

All the same I apologize

Everyone has morals- they are all subjective morals. You are wrong to say atheists have no morals. Subjective morals are morals.

Hey but it is cool. no worries

vedaxcool: Lol! Which is it? Did he negate or he did not negate? We are all witnessing the reason why atheism is a huge joke, I hope the character will be honest enough to tell the truth even though I know because you are an atheist you have no reason to tell the truth. I see your indoctrination have really made seeing the truth difficult to say.

He did not negate his point on atheists going to heaven. Watch the video!

I always back up my points with fact. The Priest clearly said that atheists can go to heaven.

fellis: what part of the Qur'an supports slavery? I would like to know.

1)If someone murders your slave, then you get to kill one of his. If it was a male that was killed, you kill one of the killer's male slaves. If a female, you kill a female. Murder for murder. Slave for slave. It all works out swell with Allah's wondrous rules. (Oh, and if you don't follow them, you'll have the usual painful doom.) 2:178

2)Doom is about to fall on all disbelievers. Only worshippers (Muslims) and those who preserve their chastity (except with their wives and slave girls) will be spared from "the fires of hell" that are "eagar to roast." 70:1-30

fellis: but that is the fault of colonial masters that wanted to indoctrinate Africans! The bible never said Jesus Christ was an American man with blond hair and blue eyes. Lol.

Agreed!

fellis: the order and arrangement of the universe is proof enough for any discerning person. I don't think you need to see any fantastic manifestation to know that God exists.
But please try to answer the first question I asked.

What other of the universe? The dying stars or failed solar systems? The majority of the earth being uninhabitable?

Mr_Anony: Please point out one of my insults on this thread, quote it back to me and i will make amends

This is very annoying;

Mr_Anony: 6. Atheists simply do not have any morals and they are quite comfortable attacking those with morals by calling them intolerant brainwashed fanatic bigots because it gives them some sort of a superiority complex.

This was the plus 1 comment. It is not that bad but was already angry and this pushed me over.

Human beings live by faith, even for the littlest things e.g you need faith to sit on a chair and hope it doesn't break, to eat food and hope it isn't poison etc. we do not go around testing every single thing else we'll die of paranoia. what an atheist does is denial of God so as to escape whatever consequences come with displeasing Him and this brings us to the moral argument that I haven't yet responded to.

How does an atheist define his morals? who can hold him accountable? and how qualified is this judge?

vedaxcool: So in essence you and your atheist buddies doctored the tape to make the priest say what you want him to say! How "rational" atheists get when they seek evidence to prove their claims! Isn't this proof that atheist are being brain washed and indoctrinated to follow the ghoulish disbelief? The jokes is always on you .

Wow, are you so desperate to see that i meant to write "didnt negate". Even if you watch the full video, you would see that the priest did not later negate his point on atheists going to heaven!



Wow! Thansk for showing everyone how desperate you are

Allahu Akbar!

Mr_Anony: Oh how tolerant and not bigoted you are! unlike those ignorant christians.........

(sarcasm intended in case you missed it)

Nice try to play the innocent christian. You insulted atheists in your comments and he did +1 to your comments. When I retaliate, I am the one being intolerant and bigoted?

Do you christians, especially you have a monopoly on insults and hypocrisy?

fellis: @bold, funny but true. I know of a case like this.

Yes and one case represents all Nigerian atheists? What about people who were raised as atheists? I have a Nigerian friend that was raised by atheists parents here in uk.

makdastar: all Nigerian atheists are atheists either cuz their parents are religious fanatics who never let them experience GOD by themselves, or people who have at one time or the other asked God for something and had their request denied, so they are still whinning about it. :Pall Nigerian atheists are atheists either cuz their parents are religious fanatics who never let them experience GOD by themselves, or people who have at one time or the other asked God for something and had their request denied, so they are still whinning about it.

Like a real christian you insult atheists parents like you were there when the atheists were raised or you were there when the atheists became atheist.

Since you want to talk about parents.....were our great grand parents christians? Ode. White man came and enslaved them and forced christianity on them.

Your shallow thinking is an example of why Nigeria refuses to get better. People and politicians failing to overcome their bias and looking at the bigger picture