₦airaland Forum

italo: Do not be deceived by those who have twisted Christianity for their own pride and selfishness. Prayer is not just about asking. It is communication with God. It could be vocal, contemplative or even meditative. You could be requesting for something good (in human eyes), or even accepting something bad (in human eyes) in good faith. Prayer is not as limited as you think it is.

Nonsense, communication is a 2 way thing. God never replies, yuhave never heard his voice.

italo: Whether the Church supported slavery or not, that is yet to be proved by you (you might want to provide evidence of that). But even if they did, it doesn't mean that it is a doctrine of the Catholic Church. The entirety of Catholic doctrine is not something secret as it's contained in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. You, a so-called "Catholic for 22yrs" should know this. If you insist, show me an official statement that shows that its a doctrine of the Church to support or engage in slavery; and show me when and/or where it was changed to say "do not support or engage in slavery. Let no one get me wrong, I'm not saying the Church never does wrong, I'm saying, even when we do, we're going against our own doctrine.

Slavery incorporated into Canon Law
In the early thirteenth century, official support for slavery and the slave trade was incorporated into Canon Law (Corpus Iuris Canonici), by Pope Gregory IX,.[61][62] Canon law provided for four just titles for holding slaves: slaves captured in war, persons condemned to slavery for a crime; persons selling themselves into slavery, including a father selling his child; children of a mother who is a slave.
Slavery was imposed as an ecclesiastical penalty by General Councils and local Church councils and Popes, 1179-1535...
(a) The crime of assisting the Saracens 1179-1450.....
(b) The crime of selling Christian slaves to the Saracens 1425. Pope Martin V issued two constitutions. Traffic in Christian slaves was not forbidden, but only their sale to non Christian masters.
(c) The crime of brigandage in the Pyrenees mountainous districts, 1179.
(d)Unjust aggression or other crimes, 1309-1535. The penalty of capture and enslavement for Christian families or cities or states was enacted several times by Popes. Those sentenced included Venetians in 1309.[63]
Pope Gregory XI, excommunicated the Florentines and ordered them to be enslaved if captured[64] Little seems to have happened before the order was removed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery

italo: What is wrong with sanctioning a war? There are situations where war is just, in Catholic doctrine. On the inquisitions, you will, again have to provide evidence again of the Churches role in that, sorry.

1) You must be willfully ignorant if you are in denial of catholic support of the inquisitions and crusades. owever, if there is a just reason for war then one should defend himself.

2) I will not put up proof so that I can see the kind of person you are whether you will look up the truth on whether the catholic church supported the those wars.

3) Torture of heretics; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition#Tribunals_and_institutions

italo: What do you mean, "they were mistaken", are you saying "there is salvation outside the Church," Atheist? Lol. Anyway let me save you the trouble. It is still a teaching of the Church as it has always been, found in the Catechism, so it was never changed.

No, such teaching has been removed. There is salvation outside the catholic church and that is an admission grudgingly made by the catholic church.

italo: CCC 1030 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.


1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607"


When we say "those who die in God's grace and frienship", we mean, in common Catholic usage, "those who die in a state of grace." And to be in a state of grace means to be free of mortal sin. You cannot be in mortal sin and be in God's grace and friendship because, mortal sin leads to "death and separation" from God.

Long story short- babies go to purgatory. Babies are atheists. Babies later go to heaven.

Atheists go to heaven

italo: I didn't say that Priest erred. I'm saying, the priest can err and not be excommunicated. Read and understand.

No probs

italo: Neither was a doctrine or discipline. Neither have you provided evidence of.

1) Slavery was in canon law.

2) The Inquisition, Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis (inquiry on heretical perversity), was the "fight against heretics" by several institutions within the justice system of the Roman Catholic Church. It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy.[1] Inquisition practices were used also on offences against canon law other than heresy.

italo: My point is, they never changed a DOCTRINE!

they did. look up slavery and the catholic church

ijawkid: I feel and I know that if an atheist rules nigeria,nigeria would be better of.....

Because I know God doesn't take sides in todays politics.....

Nigeria is so demented because religion has tried to mix with politics.....

Hypocrisy here and there.......

U see a governor steals,rigs election,joins ogboni but still wants to call himself a follower of christ......

Why not choose 1 and leave d other..........

1 can't slave for 2 masters.....

Choose either d world or choose to follow christ completely......


Logicmind and logic boy oya make ona come be president of nigeria.........


Lol

It's not just about getting into poltics. I would be assassinated on the first day of my presidency. The thing is that you have to get a lot of Nigerians to understand that atheists are not devils before attempting to become an elected official

Image123: BTW, when last did they 'suck your blood', muskeeto? I'm not aware of any discovered cure yet for 'sleep paralysis', but i know Jesus makes that 'paralysis' flee since forever. Your gods are late.

So explain why I dont need jesus even though I have sleep paralysis once in a while?

It clearly depends on sleeping patterns.


Be there claiming Jesus for everything. You only look foolish

Image123: you must be dunce headed to think that religion is the cause of all your problems and secularism the solution to it. i don't have the time nor desire for useless arguments.you can go present them data arguments to your parents and relatives.

E dey pain you?

I never said that religion is the cause of all problems. I clearly said that it is one of Nigeria's problems.

Secularism is a place to start, secularism does not guarantee peace but i is necessary for a peaceful nation.

Not one muslim to debate the truth?

Logic Mind: Before the europeans and arabs came with their fake religions, we africans used to take our destiny in our hands. We believed that everyone is responsible for one's action and that there's a direct consequence for every misbehaviour.
Foreign religions have removed these responsibilities from us. We now find ourselves in situations where we ask god to do everything for us and blame the devil for our shortcomings.
An Okada thief was caught recently in Onitsha and the crowd wanted to lynch him. He fell down and started crying. When asked why he wanted to steal, he said he didn't want to but that the devil made him do it. He was crying and shouting that most people had pity on him and some even proposed taking him to a local church for deliverance.
This is what religion have done to us.
We now elect "leaders" who instead of working tell us that "god is in control". If your doG is in control, what tha fvck are you doing in government house? And we don't even question them when they mention god, because it is abominable to do so.
I can no longer have a decent conversation with someone without them mentioning of god at each turn.
God has became an escape route when confronted with a dilemma: "leave it to god", "god will judge him", "only god knows", "god dey o" etc.
Meanwhile, the country is falling to pieces, even as we call god more and more. Anybody can be a "good" leader as long as he calls god everyday. I remember a conversation I had with a friend when Yar'Adua was elected president. I asked him why he campainged for and voted Yar'Adua. His response: "because he is a god fearing man".
He doesn't care about his qualification and experience and leadership abilities. All that matters was that Yar'Adua was god fearing.
We need to abandon these foreign gods that has done us no good at all and go back to our roots. Retake our destiny from imaginary beings and become responsible and accountable individuals once more.
The first step is usually the hardes step but this one is very easy: STOP GOING TO CHURCHES AND MOSQUES.

A good slave never leaves his master. Too many Nigerians are slaves to foreign religions. Slaves to the non-existent Gods. The have submitted their will to a fake god.

I am just annoyed at the willful ignorance that is pervasive in the Nigerian society today, we place religion over human beings in Nigeria.


Given the choice between going to heaven and feeding/housing fellow Nigerians, many would choose going to heaven out of ignorance and religious brainwashing

ijawkid: Exactly buzugeee..........

Paul must have even been in shackles when he wrote those words.......

Infact like we both agree its Gods people who have been d slaves all along.........

And then paul even went further to help us see reasons why we shuld obey d higher authorities.....

Those words carry d same meaning with slaves obey ur master.....


But ofcus we must obey Yahweh as ruler rather than men........

Balance is all what paul was emphasizing.....

1) It is God's people that have been slave masters all along. Christian Europeans, Biblical Isrealites, Arab muslims etc

2) Apostle Paul is a fool by todays standards. He wrote that omen should be silent and submissive in church and he wrote that slaves should obey their masters. Why should we obey higher authority without question? So your forefathers should have remained in slavery in America and Europe? We should be obedient to dictactors like Hitler and Gaddafi? This is why secular countries of today are always better than religious or non-secular ones- in secular countries, the people protect their rights to protest and free speech against the government.

Acidosis: Poster stop justifying yourself with lies. Where did you get those data from? No school pays that per semester. They pay per session i.e yearly. Some madonna students even pay less than 150 k depends on your course of study. If school fee is 650k as you generalised, would a medical and a sociology student of Babcock pay the same?

N300,000k a year is still not very affordable to majority of Nigerians.

Ban offering and tithes for one year and watch how humble churches and men of God will become.

Image123: Like i told you, peace is relative. Anyone can pull up data and links on the internet to support his/her positions. i'll give you 3 links showing there is some form of crises going on in your hero countries. Iceland(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932012_Icelandic_financial_crisis), New Zealand (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/13813236/nz-journalism-in-crisis/), and Japan (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726297). The point is that they are also facing their own troubles, and nobody is spared from trouble because you stop going to church or believing in God. They sure die in these countries too, they have prisons, murderers, sick people, mental homes, people who commit suicide etc. So again, peace is relative. Peace involves tranquility, law and order, freedom from war. But it also involves the individual persons, your body, your mental state, your spiritual state and your eternal state. i'm in Nigeria, and i'm certqain that i enjoy more peace than many in japan. Many rich men and powerful people all over the world claim to believe in God. It is not their religiousity or secularity that brings them peace.

What a foolish argument. No country is perfect or totally peaceful. Each have their own problems. However, my information is comparative; some countries are more peaceful than others. Secular countries are always more peaceful than non-secular ones. Fact.

I repeat, only a secular country can guarantee you full human rights and freedom of religion.

Like a typical bible pushing christian, when you are presented with well researched information, you discard it if it puts your religion in a bad light. Do you think the researchers who put the list together were just fabricating data or what?


One of Nigeria's main problems is willful ignorance caused by religion. Worshiping men of God and allowing them to assault young women, allowing governors to donate millions of Naira of public money into churches, destruction of their own culture due to foriegn religions like islam and christianity etc.

Because of people like you we dont teach our children about the history of slavery or evolution because they both put christianity and islam in a bad light. We Nigerians have to play catch up with Europeans, Americans and Asians when we grow up.

Because of religion, many Nigerians believe that their lives would get better as long as they pray or tithe instead of getting up and claiming their rights which the government refuses to give them. Imagine some people praying for NEPA/electricit instead of having demonstrations for better electricity

Image123: you're no different from some of the 'christian' preachers that zealously preach against receiving medical treatment or using drugs. you're one frustrated soul. Jesus, nor the Bible never asked anyone to avoid doctors. Christians study medicine and become world renowed doctors. Jesus also gave them the wisdom and right.

No, Jesus did not give any knowledge, he brought misinformation until some wise scientists brought about germ theory.

hisblud: am i getting on someone's nerve, ouch kpele oo! Why shouldnt i support what i CHOOSE to support .

Is trolling part of your christian doctrine?

ijawkid: Did the apostles of Jesus ever own slaves?

They were slaves themselves to d romans if u'v forgoten...............

Jesus wasn't racist..............

If not he wouldn't die for all................

His apostles and all 1st century followers of Jesus were nt racist because there master wasn't...........


Like I quoted galatians for u.........

Ur fixation on this slave issue is just too much bro..........lol

Let it go.........

Jesus death has annulled all that.....

If Ù ask mÉ and from the bible its eve Gods people who have being slaves for too long......

In egypt and also all d times they were taken into captivity by enemy nations.............

Paul told slaves to obey their masters


West African tradition do not crucify murderers and theives, rather they either kill them through beheading or excommunicate them. Jesus died on the cross for the lost sheep of isreal

Ptolomeus: The African slave trade was not created, or invented by Muslims.
In the first instance, the first slavers were Portuguese and Dutch. But then, in effect, traffic, and the hunting of slaves, was done almost exclusively by Muslims.
It is a historical fact.

The African slave trade started with Arabic muslims. The dutch/portugese/Europeans came after.

ijawkid: There aint no slaves no more under christs law.......

We are all equal in Gods sight now thru d death of Jesus........

Read galatians 3:26-28


And d reason why women are to keep silent in d congregation isn't because they are oppressed or because they are slaves......

This is d simple reason......

Let's read 1timothy 2:11-13......

Its simply Gods arrangement of headship for things to go on decently and by order......


remember this biblical hierarchy @ 1 corinthians 11:3?

There is slavery in the New Testament.

I would like to see you explain why women are to be silent in church and submissive to your 18 year old daughter or niece. Sexist


Why is Jesus a racist

buzugee: LOL its nothing to be scared off. i would hope i am rational in my dealings as a person but not as a christian. the word 'christian' a lot of people dont know it is a derogatory word. its like a racial slur. this is what the gentiles and apostates used to call those who followed christ in jest. i think this first started in corinth. its like me being a big follower and supporter of jonathan and people laugh at me and call me a jonathanee or something like that. so i aint no christian. and secondly, i dont interpret the bible wrongly. the people on here ( not all ) are the ones who interpret it wrongly. a lot of people from the way they interpret the bible on nairaland, you can tell they are heavily into that church doctrine.

Okay, no probs

buzugee: yup the slaves were to come from the gentiles because the gentiles were not equally yoked with the jews under the law and hence were barbarians and savages. they had no laws and hence where there is no law there is no trangression ( romans 4 vs 15 ). however with the death of christ to continue the law that will pull the gen
tiles into partnership with the jews under the law, all that unequal treatment stopped.

women should remain silent in church. i dont really see the big deal in that, women are very emotional and the lord does not deal with emotions. he deals with wisdom and understanding. not saying women dont have wisdom and understanding but it can get clouded by emotions a lot of times. try being led by an emotional person. its like the blind leading the blind. no desrespek to the women out there but it is what it .

i will answer the rest but i know you are not looking for answers. just to cause strife

I love you Buzugee (no homo)!!

Nairaland would never be the same without your strange biblical interpretations.

Image123: you do yourself a disservice. i have no such useless unique experiences, Jesus took care of them for moi, jealous.

So Jesus heals your medical problems? Then you should avoid those doctors

Another Okija: Shes smiling like someone who just got fhucked!

She knows wassap

buzugee: no Sir, mi compadre I dont belong to or attend any church or institution. The bible is a holy constitution. i use it as such. I read all by myself at home and get help from videos on the internet when i need clarification or edification or just to amuse myself. But nah i dont attend anywhere. i attend the NAIRALAND church. iuse this place as my worship place to get information and to dispense information and plus it is an amusing section of nairaland. i get my fun here. holy fun

Buzugeee, I am scared of you! Sometimes, you could be the most rational christian on Nairaland who can see the problems with modern christianity and sometimes, you could be a mad interpreter of the bible.


At least, you were able to overcome and see the failure of organised religion

1)Leveticus
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. (Sweet racial/ethnic slavery from leveticus 25;44)

===========================================================================================
2)Corinthians
women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. ( hot Sexism and unfair treatment of women 1 corinthians 14;34)

=========================================================================================
3)Matthew
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs. (Racist Jesus Christ from Mathew 15;21)

dorox: Count me as one of the christians that see him as a quack scientist without any proper grounding in basic elementary biology. To have stated that in his twenty odd years he hasn't seen a cat evolved shows the depth of his ignorance, even i that never went to a university knows that evolutionary changes is said to span millions of years.

The end of Davidylan's credibility!

frosbel: The former is quite true but not the later

Okay, no worries.

frosbel: And so dear Logicboy, why don't we return to practising the same things as our ancestors such as the mythical worship of a million 'gods' , child sacrifice , body mutilation etc.

Can we not at least thank the Missionaries for helping us come out of a 'dark age' mentality

Is christianity any better? A mythical God that has a son that is himself and a mother who is a vrigin. Chrustianity is a myth as well. Furthermore christianity engages in child sacrifice as well. Where I am from in Nigeria, my ancestors were a barbaric tribe but didnt sacrifice children

Why should I tank the racist missionaries who enjoyed slave trade and thought their religion was better than ours?

Furthermore, Abraham's convenant is body mutilation. Circumstition

frosbel: actually there is.

No. There is no difference between a good atheist and a good christian other than the religion.

frosbel: The Christian is directed by the Holy Spirit through faith and thus his boasting is not of himself but of Christ while the atheist harbours the false notion that he can attain to moral perfection by trusting in and depending on his fallible and frail humanity.

What morals do christians have? Stoning gay people? Burning witches? Placing women as under men? Keeping women silent in churches?

All these things are sanctioned in the bible

frosbel: Goodness emanates from God and without our connecting to the source of this beautiful trait we will forever remain completely bad.

Are you saying that atheists are bad? Why do we need God to be good? Bill Gates doesnt believe in a christian God and yet, he donates millions to charity and is tackling malaria.

https://humourtouch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Good-without-God.png

frosbel: And how do you measure goodness, certainly I hope not by material things.

Goodness consists of contentment, kindness, love, peace , gentleness , hope and Joy. These delicious fruits are the true intangible assets to the human soul.

An atheist can have all of these fruits. You lose. Atheists can be good without god.

frosbel: First of all your question is wrong.

Man started commercial and wicked slavery not God. Ask the Arabs , your African kings and the Westerners why they started Slavery, lol.

God condoned and regulated the slavery, according to leveticus and Paul in the New Testament

frosbel: But how can he be though , considering that he has totally left out the fundamentals of the Christian faith which is LOVE.

Let me entertain you with a poem on Love by Apostle Paul.

1 Corinthians 13 : 1 - 13


"If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Are you talking about the same Paul that wrote this;

1 Corinthians 14;34
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law

The op (Frosbel) is a christian bigot and an ignoramus

1) Frosbel's ancestors did not accept the christian God if Frosbel is Nigerian. Nigeria has pagan traditional roots

2) There is no difference between a good atheist and a good christian.

3) Even if there is God, there is nothing good that God has done in a christian life that doesnt exist in an atheist life.

4) If God exists why did he use slavery and colonization to reveal himself (with the christian religion) to Nigerians?

OLAADEGBU: Who said Christians don't make good husbands?

Ironic that christians have a high divorce rate!

iv4fb: @muskeeto, they were not family members, unlike you, they were ready to receive and they did.

@Kay_17,be realistic, you also presented biased and unjustified beliefs or 'disbeliefs'; i thought u were intelligent enough to know that we both argued based on what we believed (or disbelief?)aint that biased? and all our opinions are justified; mine by my belief and yours by ur unbelief. I'm going to agree i'm ignorant-totally about ur "no-god theorem" and so you're also ignorant about the realities of my great GOD! stick to your guns bro and stop the extremism, use of harsh words and mind you my decision on my GOD-whether real or unreal does not clash with your unbeleif, for not even charles Darwin will appeal for you.

Reasons for atheism
logic boy--fear of slavery or should i say anger at
avicenna--frustrations
kay_17--too much learning makes him...
muskeeto--sheer ignorance
martian--i'm not sure he's academically inclined.

DISCLAIMER: The above are my opinions, they might be right or wrong but i do have right to my opinions and watch as they will return insults...its not like they have a conscience to discern good and bad though!

Note: i'm no longer ready to argue, stick to your own guns, but i sure wont be ungrateful to God to think in the atheist way.

Wow, does christianity love hypocrisy or what?


You insult people and put false information then you say atheists have no morals and are ready to insult.

Tell me, where is your proof that Avicenna is frustrated or Muskeeto is ignorant?

Why would you say atheists have no morals? Is your bible moral? What part of burning a witch or stoning homosexuals is moral? Or telling women to keep silent in church?


As for me, christian/biblical support of slavery was the starting point for my atheism but it is far from the main reason for my atheism. There exists no proof for God- no physical proof of God.

Stop the misinformation!

Prince2012: u guyz really need a psychologist here. Critics without truth, ur worst than a serial killer, I tfink some persons here r cyber serial killers. Tell u something, they like to tarnish people's image. For me ds is a very GOOD NEWS. Oh am happy

Sheep! Mumu!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KgDSDkUcVk

Fr0sbel: And atheists make perfect husbands, lol.

Who claimed that?

hisblud: I Cheerlead for Mr Anony because I have nothing to say.

Mr Anony is wrong. Stop cheerleading.[size=18pt] Atheist clearly state that there has never been any evidence for the existence of God which is a fact.[/size]