₦airaland Forum

buzugee: what country do you live in ?

UK and Naija

buzugee: YOU HAVE A STRONG POINT. ok lets just say its a combination of factors that collude to make the world unbearable. i wouldnt single out religion. lately, religion has taken a backseat to politics greed and weaponry power ( ego )in causing violence.

but....I'm addicted to bashing religion. Do you expect me not to single it out

I'm a businessman. I'm in the business of chopping my dad's money. Other than that, I've got two degrees in business. I'm an atheist


When you study marketing and psychology, you learn that religion is an effective tool for conditioning and brainwashing.

When you study business law, you find out that all laws come from experiences with transactions (both monetary and non-monetary) and not God. That's why the bible had no law on future contracts or mergers and acquisitions.

buzugee: hardly sweat breakers. try this on for size

slavery and the plunder of every third world country in the world -ego

genocide of almost every indigenous race on the planet - superiority

unfair trade and plunder of every third world nation - greed

notice how your violent episodes are isolated minor episodes ( like oyedepo slapping a woman ). notice how my episodes are episodes of world wide violence and genocide.

Huh? The burning/slapping of witches is isolated when it comes to christianity?

Are there not religious genocides?

Did religion not support the transatlantic slave trade

Is the catholic church in italy not worth billions yet people starve?

buzugee: great observation

When did you start supporting Davidylan's f00lishness?

buzugee: the violent trouble maker is ego, politics, superiority and greed. all the world wars have been a result of these.

Slapping of a girl by Pastor Oyedepo and saying he will do it again- Ego

Sharia law theocracy- politics

Christian curse of ham, denial of rights by sharia law to non-muslims- superiority

collecting tithe from people suffering from povery and avoiding taxes- greed.


Religion is the violent trouble maker

buzugee: this is like asking, if we removed 5 inmates people out of a prison population of 2000 hardened criminals, will the prison be safer. of course not

Simple maths- the prison would be actually safer.

If you remove the 5 most violent trouble makers, you would have much much more safer prison

Relgion is the violent trouble makers

AlvinPlantinga: And good governance.Simply having oil will not enrich any country.Nigeria is a classic example.The investments in infrastructure, health care and education in the oil rich countries of the gulf are examples of good governance.Whilst in Nigeria,politicians have used oil wealth to line up their pockets.



Assertions normally don't win debates.



Again. assertions don't win debate.repeating a claim many times over does not make it right.Turkey is by todays standards, a very well run country.But 90% religious.So is Malaysia and Singapore.These are countries where religion is enshrined in the constitution.


Back to my previous post.Governance, governance and governance.




freedom of rights in those countries, middle eastern countries is obviously appalling.And this is a direct consequence of islam.Cross over to turkey, and you find the total opposite.An islamic country with rights and freedoms that could match many european countries.Israel still a very religious country, but one of the most democratic countries in the world.

North Korea and China, secular states, one of the worst offenders of human rights in the world.



there might have been less burning of witches, but that is child's play compared to the millions of people massacred in non-religious deaths.



Wrong.North Korea and china, secular, but fail in freedom and equality.

Furthermore,even without religion, earthquakes, tsunamis i.e Natural disasters would still occur.diseases, injuries and aging will still be with us.

You have so far failed to show how this things will be affected by the absence of religion.you have failed to make an argument on how cultural conflicts would have never happened in the absence of religion.Or how fight for land due to migration and scarcity of resources would have been affected by religion or lack thereof.

And with that, i end my discourse because i think i have put my points across and am finding myself repeating the same points over and over again.No hard feelings though.

1) The middle eastern countries you mention have lack freedom and the equality we see in atheistic european countries. They may be better than Nigeria but remember that Nigeria is more populous and was colonized + enslaved


2) I didnt make an assertion. It is fact. Show me a country that has a strong economy, is very peaceful, has equalit and freedom and the country must have a secular government

3) North Korea and China are communist countries. Communist is a religion its own. Furthermore, I said that secularism in government does not guarantee good governance but it is a prerequisite for good governance, equality and freedom

4) Without religion there would be less wars, less conflict and more freedom. You can not deny this fact

lagerwhenindoubt: only when you abuse them - it does not add value to the words themselves not does it make them true

I dont insult except when i am insulted first

tbaba1234: The law is only applicable in an Islamic State... America is a secular state so an american muslim is not bound by the law...

That being said, wont this make American/western muslims feel different and disconnected to the Islamic states?

lagerwhenindoubt: Is that where your logic ends - No probs, i choose to keep an open mind.. Atheism helps you keep an open mind thus allowing your to grasp without bias. it has improved my life a whole lot Having the moral courage to live life without the tether of some infantile divine entity is an exercise in Honesty and Truth (even when you don't have all the information at hand). You have not grasped what Atheism is even if you can define it as you just did. which is why your posts are always tainted with emotional outburst that look very much like the Religion(ists) you criticize so strongly

If a drunkard becomes an atheist does it mean that the atheist becomes less of a drunkard or just an atheistic drunkard?


What are we if not our emotions? I use my emotions to my benefit. People feel the power behind my words

vedaxcool: You seem to have left Islam for ignorance lol! as david has really battered your profane banter here . . . And to think being an atheist really opened ur eyes yeah right maybe to the fact that you are a very ignorant man who needs classes on logical reasoning no insults intended.

Vedaxcool, why? Why??

You had to go as low as supporting Davidylan to spite Avicenna for leaving islam? Davidylan who is the master of strawmen?

AlvinPlantinga: I will take you back to the middle east.99% religious, with Oil and prospering.Denmark is a secular state, but Atheism in itself has no governing fundamentals.Atheism is simply non-belief.The separation of church and state has no bearing on whether a country will have corrupt free leaders or poor governance structures.

Nigeria and Qatar are two examples.Saudi arabia is much more radical and religious than Nigeria.both have Oil wwealth.There is no separation of state and church in Saudi arabia.Both have oil.And Yet Saudi Arabia is thriving.The same can be said of many of the gulf states.Turkey is a very religious country over 90%, with a big population, yet thriving.

Now, i am not by any chance suggesting that religion is cause of the success of these countries.My point is to illustrate that on one hand you have secular states thriving,poor secular states, rich religious states, poor religious states. At the end of the day, its a question of governance, and how a country utilizes its natural resources.

1) The middle eastern countries you mention are economically strong only due to oil. Having a secular state and separation of church and stated is key to having a peaceful nation and a reliable governemnt- secularism does not guarantee a good government but it is a prerequisite. Atheism and agnosticism leads to a secular government. You cant have a secular government in a total christian country the top 10 peaceful countries in the world are all secular.

What can you say about freedom equality in those middle eastern countries that you mention. They may be rich but not free or more peaceful. Furthermore, they are rich from natural resource and not form manufacturing or providing services.

AlvinPlantinga: Why would they?They came to africa because they thought africans had inferior intelligence.Africans were strong and agile,and perrfect for their rice and wheat farms.

It still doesnt make enough motive for slavery. They also believed in the curse of ham and accepted the slavery in the bible.

AlvinPlantinga: In Summary:

Yo asked how the world would have been without religion:

1.History tells us that non-religious wars and genocides have caused more deaths and destruction than all combined religious wars.This goes to show that even in the absence of religion, there is no reason to believe that the world would have been a more peaceful place devoid of wars and terror.Human nature and natural selection will always ensure a fight for the fittest to survive.this competitive nature in humans will always be manifested in conflict.

2.I have shown that the prosperity of a nation is not pegged to its Religiosity or lack of it thereof.Just as Denmark is a highly secular nation with alot of wealth, so is Qatar and many middle east nations which are highly religious.A well governed country whether religious or not, will always thrive.

1) History tells us that without religion, there would have been less wars, less slavery and burning of witches.

2) Properity is not only riches. There is peace, freedom and equality- three of which are never present together when the government is not secular

tbaba1234: Up till the 1920s: we still had a functioning Islamic state (Ottoman empire). The colonialists tore up the Muslim state in bits after the collapse of the ottomans

There are movements to reunite the muslims under Islam again... And it will happen, it is just a matter of time.

The punishment for apostacy in an Islamic state is death.... This is however a very simplistic explanation: It comes with caveats..

There are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

This law is not applicable to new muslims so they get a free ride.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None..

Now if one is considered an apostate, a number of steps must be taken:

He speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

In as much as I disagree with you, I respect you for taking your time to honestly answering my question.

However, do you think that a western (American) muslim will agree to such apostasy laws in this day and age?



By the way, your input here is needed;

https://www.nairaland.com/929193/world-without-religion...better-not

Mai-suya:
^
Some of the reasons I believe there is more to BH than meets the eye are:

Mend have got a long history and experience in fighting govt. Mend attacks on govt where at best I'll Coordinated. Mend had a camp in the creeks where govt knew where to get them when it wanted to get them.
On the other hand BH had no expirience whatsoever in any combat, they have no camp or at least non our intelligence services know about.
Now how can such a inexperienced group (and also assumed illiterate) be carrying out commando style attacks that dwarfs mends sophistication and only comparable to alshabab and Taliban (don't forget that even these two groups had years of experience in fighting the AU and US respectively b4 they could attain critical mass as far as terrorism is concerned)

So I think it will be naive to think there is no involvement of foreign intelligence services in this BH saga. Coz that's how they operate in other regions.
The us used the cover of alqaeda and WMDs as reasons to invade iraq which were both non existent at the time. Isreal according to NY times uses some iranian terror group within Iran to try to distablize it.

So this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Though more evidence is needed in support

Salaam, i need your input here, please;

https://www.nairaland.com/929193/world-without-religion...better-not

ijawkid: What about a world without atheist?


What a wonderful world it will be....

You wouldnt be using your computer/mobile phone without atheists.

musKeeto: Sorry, I won't supply your drugs tonight, find some other board to troll.. bye bye

Truth too much for you?

lagerwhenindoubt: A very good example right there - how has your belief contributed to your speech and reasoning presented here? you have not contributed to this discussion in a positive way who cares WTF anyone believes when the result is evident in your behavior with your fellow-man? I thought Atheism was meant to expose intellect thus improve your way of life - you still have a looooooong way to go

??

You made 2 wrong statements which I corrected and yet, you hypocritically chastise me for reasoning?


Atheism is not meant to improve your life. Atheism is simply a disbelief in an god

musKeeto: Lol, heated argument indeed.. you claimed Israel was in Europe... anyways, no need to derail the thread.. come up with something better.. I mind my business as much as possible, not going round threads trying to force people to drop their beliefs or unbeliefs... The only poster up here whom can accuse me of heated arguments would be JoAgbaje cos he's a crook..

We went back and forth on almost 2 pages.


Anywaays, you dont mind your business. Dont try to act like a mature debater here. You conveniently hide in the middle and then gang up against the side that is less favourable to you.


The fact that you mentioned that you had heated arguments with Joagbaje is self defeating, dont you think?

Tbaba, you are not making any sense. By your definition of islamic state, there can never be an islamic state in this modern day.

However, what is the pubishment for apostacy in islam or sharia aw according to you?

musKeeto: Maybe you can post any link that shows 'heated argument'... please.. looking for friends now, aren't you?

Have you forgotten the one you had with me?

https://www.nairaland.com/913787/5-things-that-turn-christians/4

Ptolomeus: After this beating, I guess that La-Divalicious is drinking a glass of water with an anti-inflammatory to recover from the blows.
Knock out!

Jenwitemi: Because, as a Christian, he is not used to debating. He talks and his mates agrees by shouting hallelujah. Besides, he knows he'd be on the backfoot all the time in the debate. The Christian theology is very cruel to debate for. It is quite difficult, if not impossible, to support in debates like this and come out making good sense. That is the cross all Christians have to carry till the day they leave this earth.

hahaha! I am not surprised. I had to even beg him to comment on this thread.

AlvinPlantinga: LogicBoy:

Maybe a definition of a religious war needs to be defined.

A religious war (Latin: bellum sacrum) is a war caused by, or justified by, religious differences (web deifnition).King leopald was a christian(so he claimed) but the congo massacres were not by any breadth a Religious war.King leopald was an opportunist and the war was a part of his quest of making money from the vast mineral and ivoy deposits of the DRC.

Adolph hitler a Christian? Hitler's religious beliefs are a mystery.he had his own brand of christianty.As he spread his Nazi propoganda he became hostile to christianity and jews and churches were closed and burned down.Nevertheless, remember we are discussing religious wars, the world war 2 was not by any stretch of the imagination a religious war.The murder of jews by hitler was a racial massacre.Hitler was antisemitic.

The number of people killed in the crusades has been estimated to be about 200,000 in a span of 200 years!About 15,000 people killed in the spanish inquisition.

European slavery and colonialism?How is that a religious war?Slavery and colonialism was an expansionism philosophy of Europe.Resource strapped Europe saw fertile lands, untapped resources and Free labour in Africa.With a budding industrial revolution in Europe and a growing population,Europe embarked in colonialism.

You will have to put down facts and numbers for all of your claims.You will have to rewrite history to claim that religious wars have killed more people than political, tribal and territorial wars.And by Religious wars, i mean wars simply started and porpgated because of rteligion.Not wars started by a leader who claims to be christian, yet the war is about tribe.

Just as Qatar,Kuwait and UAE are rich because of Oil wealth and not religion.Ask an economist why Denmark is rich.Vast Oil and natural gas in the North Sea, Free trade policies and sound governance.

You mention sound governance for one of the reason for wealth in Denmark. Denmark's secular governemnt is the reason for sound governance. Nigeria has oil, yet it is not prospering. Also, you cant have sound governance without separation of church and state.


A for religious wars;

European slavery was boosted by religion. Did they enslave fellow british and portuguese christians? No. Even pope Gregory ix put a canon for the enslavement for non christians. Also, churches have apologised for their roles in the Transatlantic slavery.


I also never said that religious wars have cause more deaths than political, economic and tribal wars. I was saying that religious wars have killen more than any atheists murderer or genocidal leader

davidylan: and the answer is where?



Epic fail.

lol..

Keep blocking your eyes to the answer!!

musKeeto: Thank you very much..

Hypocrite, as if you dont get into heated arguments with both atheists and religious people. The fact that you argue with both sides shows that you're even more of a hypocrite.

lagerwhenindoubt: Unbelievable spectacle when Religion Vs. Atheism clash after that many posts you realize that either are as dangerous for mankind The problem is not what you choose to believe in but how you live your life and contribute to project earth. OMFG!

You are very f00lish to state that atheism and religion are as dangerous as the other.

You say the problem is not what you choose to believe. How about we all choose to believe that your death will give me 72 virgins? You like that?

davidylan: Daft... seriously daft, sometimes i wonder if you are older than a 4yr old.
America, England, France and Israel (highly religious countries) have contributed FAR MORE nobel laureates than Estonia, New Zealand, Denmark and Sweden put together... so why are those countries not bastions of atheism today? Are they less intelligent too?

Literacy rates are equally as high in Israel and Lebanon so what?

10% of America is atheistic. 10% of 310 million is 31 million. 31 million is 30 times the number of people in Estonia. 31 million is more than the poulation of denmark, estonia and sweden put together.

davidylan: another idiotic nuisance.

1. I asked a clear question (and i'm sure you can read) - Before we started "evolving" something must have appeared first right? Explain. why have you ignored that?

2. You shld ask me to explain to you why genesis is clear that the earth itself is way more than 6000 yrs old.

1) I answered the question;

a) If you are asking before evolving, then you are accepting the agnostic creator because the biblical creator falsely claims to have created man
b) there is no proof of what came before matter and no proof of your agnostic creator. There has never been proof of a creator.


2) Genesis talks about Adam. End of story

davidylan: Believe me, i try. I just like to be as objective as possible.

For example, your list of the 3 least religious countries conveniently ignores the FACT that those nations were once bastions of christianity barely 100-200 yrs ago. Those countries did not become what they are today by virtue of being atheist... infact it can be argued that the relative prosperity of european nations (who exported christianity to us by the way) is the reason more are turning to atheism (i.e. life has become so good they suddenly have no need for God again).

Wrong. They became atheists because they became more intelligent. Did you also notice their literacy rates ompared to your religious countries?

davidylan: 1. Before we started "evolving" something must have appeared first right? Explain

2. Even the book of genesis supports the idea that the earth is more than 6000 yrs old

Next?

Epic fail

1) Your bible claims that man was created in our present form which is a lie. If you are going with an agnostic creator, there is no evidence for him

2) Adam to moses = 2000 year. moses to present day = about 4000 years.


Davidylan, you've been pwned

davidylan: this is a senseless topic.

Have i answered your "question" now logicboy?

Can't you be a nice guy instead of an A$$hol£ for once in your life?