₦airaland Forum

DeepSight:
I used to call myself deist ("a rational and intuitive deist" were my specific words, lol) in my early Nairaland days. I have since tired of all labels especially as this thing we call reality is just an utter enigma. I can no longer specifically tell if even the deist god I evisioned back then exists. At a philosophical level, I still grapple with existential thoughts everyday and remain very humble and teachable in this regard.

All normal humans gets tired of whatever isn't working out well so you are not alone that is where humility comes in and what is humility?

Humility is the characteristic of being humble or let's say non-boastful, modest, meager, submissive.

This means a humble person doesn't rely solely on accumulated information he or she got rather a humble person looks forward to a practical application of accumulated information which comes with real benefits.

For instance i was a Muslim the tendency is there that i may not welcome any information that's contrary to what i was fed as a Muslim but humility and righteousness will compel me to welcome superior knowledge that comes along with practical application which has real benefits only the true God and the religion He established can achieve that! Matthew 7:17-18

God used His holy spirit to empower Samson with holy spirit and Samson brought down the tower killing thousands of Philistines, empower Elijah to run faster than a chariot, John the baptist was filled with holy spirit 120 at disciples Pentecost were filled with holy spirit, Stephen was full of holy spirit and many more instances.

So what is the Holy Spirit?

The finger of God was used in different ways but could it be the same as the Holy Spirit?
If the finger of God operated in various ways just as the holy Spirit what then is the Holy Spirit?

Julia25:
And we were on Earth? that's wonderful. Perhaps, what you meant was God's sustenance 'shielded them from aging'? —Not that time didn't exist.
You can't have space without time, the two go hand in hand

It's time to enlighten you!

I don't hide knowledge from people who desire it so i will teach you for the benefit of interested followers of this thread.

God said He is the beginning and the end the alpha and Omega most people have translated this phrases in different ways but this is what it means!

God never had a beginning neither will God have an end what God is saying for humans is that the beginning of time and it's end is determined by Him because from the time God declared that Adam will die that's the beginning of time until the case is finally resolved and the same God declared everlasting life which means the end of time all the things that happened in between that period will be recorded forever.

So whether you agree or not it's the sin of Adam that pave way for a beginning of time and it will end when sin has been removed completely!

sonmvayina:
God's spirit whether good or evil are the forces that sustain life in the universe.
It formed the cosmos and holds it in existence.
We, humans are that spirit experiencing life in multiple ways...
The proper understanding of this is the beginning of your salvation...

OK Mr Reincarnation we don hear you.
Oya go and continue with your friends!

Julia25:
Really? So you mean Adam and Eve were not on the Earth? Because I beg to differ.
Give scriptural verses to support this at least let me give you benefit of a doubt because using pure logic it's hogwash(Space and Time were made first) others came later.

Time became relevant the day God told Adam:
“Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life". ‭Genesis 3:17 NIV‬
Time started from that very moment, if God didn't make that declaration we have nothing to do with timing because we won't grow old or die so time would have been useless!

ocnovakmichael:
The same reason people love old wine over new wine. The old wine indicate proximity to the original taste: in this context, proximity to transcription and translation. It shows dedication, preservation, and history. Scripture says, "No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better" (Luke 5:39).

It's a lie!

The secret behind it is that the clergy are not happy that their followers now have the privilege to read God's word on their own, they fought against the idea for centuries killing whoever wants to read the Bible among those who aren't members of the clergy until King James of England insisted the Bible should be translated to his own mother tongue.
The decision put the clergy in a tight corner so they made the King sign a treaty that no one else should think of translating the Bible into English except the version authorized by the King of England. So they included several things that's not found in the original texts believing no one will ever find out until America declared freedom of speech, expression and worship that is how we now have different versions of the Bible and unveiling the secret behind the King James Version.
If you read the KJV in that old English you can't know that the word "Hell" means Grave because that's the 15th century English word for Grave.
Today most people has been brainwashed with the teaching of immortal soul but when they discover the real meaning of Hell they are confused as they don't know how to tell people that it simply means Grave!

In other events recorded in the Bible it's written that God's finger was involved in different cases.
We read:


When the Lord finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God. ‭Exodus 31:18 NIV


The magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the Lord had said. ‭Exodus 8:19 NIV‬


But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. ‭Luke 11:20 NIV‬

So who or what is the finger of God?

Racism is a religion on its own though it's based on falsehood so when racists are filled with uncontrolled rage they will start fabricating all kinds of philosophical thoughts and using such to school gullible people.

Whether black, white, yellow or red mankind was created to be one big and happy family throughout the earth the true God doesn't segregate by skin color or race rather whoever is upright is acceptable to Him! Act 10:34-35

Felimax:
What do you mean by Israel is black?
Do you know how many shades of black we have all over the world?

Are Ethiopians black? Which shade?
Do you know we have black Indians?
Are they the same with our West African blacks?

Do you know we have primitive blacks all over Africa who has never heard of the bible?

Are they the choosing people of God too?

The chosen people of God don't do voodoo like we do most especially in our West African places.

I beg make una stop all these Israel is black nonsense. How many countries have you traveled to?

What is the Holy Spirit?
How does the Holy Spirit works?
Who are those having the Holy Spirit?

Let's use the Bible to answer all these questions starting from the first question!

According to Jesus of Nazareth God is a spirit {John 4:24} so can we conclude that whenever the scriptures mention "Holy Spirit" it's God Himself?

Let's go back to the first Bible book and see what the scriptures say about the spirit of God:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. ‭Genesis 1:1-2 NIV‬

Can we conclude that God Himself is the one hovering over the waters?

Why did the writer say it's the spirit of God that was hovering over the waters instead of saying God Himself?

These questions may seem easy to answer but they are the root cause of contradictions in Christendom till today!

So what is your take on this topic?

God's love is unconditional!

Truvelisback:
Yet you deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Isn't that ignorance?

You are the ignorant one!

Jesus told everyone:

"By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?  Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit." Matthew 7:16-18

What positive results has this so called "deity of Jesus Christ" produced in the midst of those claiming it?

If the idea is not yielding positive results among those adhering to it doesn't that tell you it's false going by what Jesus said with his own mouth?

You people have been teaching the deity of Jesus for centuries now with what result? There's nothing to write home about the teaching yet you want to argue and accusing a religion that's performing throughout the world which everyone could see their performance!

If it's not Jesus that's leading Jehovah's Witnesses organization how come they're the only organized religion that's actively preaching and teaching about God's Kingdom just as Jesus commanded? Matthew 28:19-20

How come it's only among them that true love exists? John 13:34-35

How come it's only among them that one line of thought is promoted? John 17:22; 1Corinthans 1:10; Ephesians 4:3; 1Peter 3:15

How come it's only among them that marrying in the Lord is known globally? 1Corinthans 7:39

How come it's only them that doesn't participate in worldly politics which leads to hatred and killings everywhere? John 17:14-16 compare to Revelations 6:3-4

How come they are the only religion that could boast about none monetization of their sacred service? Matthew 6:24

Jesus himself has spoken:

 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me.  It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’ Matthew 15:8-9

So worshiping Jesus and claiming he is a deity is offside if it has not yield positive results for centuries that is enough evidence such a teaching is based on falsehood!

Truvelisback:
Why waste your time argueing with a Jehovah Witness member?

Most people are worried when they see the spirit with which Jehovah's Witnesses handle God's word and what Jesus commanded his disciples to do unlike you confused Churchians who only say one thing but doing another.
That's why they want to discuss with us.

Your pastors are scared of us because they knew very well that only Jehovah's Witnesses are making real disciples and baptizing them as commanded by Jesus Christ.

Can you mention the name of your own church?
NO!
WHY?
Because you don't know how to defend what your pastors taught you since it's not practicable among you so all of you are hiding behind anonymous just as Jesus foretold:

Then they will start saying to the mountains, ‘Fall over us!’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us over!’ Luke 23:30

Scriptural interpretation of mountains is religions so since you people can't stand to defend you false religions you are all hiding behind anonymous religions claiming denominations when it's obvious that you people are teaching contradicting things.

The only religion that's standing tall above all others is Jehovah's Witnesses just as Jesus foretold:

“You are the light of the world. A city cannot be hid when located on a mountain. People light a lamp and set it, not under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it shines on all those in the house. Likewise, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens" Matthew 5:14-16

Which of your churches has a unique form of teaching that's recognisable with few words?
None because all of you are confused as to what to teach that's why your leaders are contradicting themselves.
So any sincere person among you will be shocked to see the way Jehovah's Witnesses skillfully handles the word of God! 2Timothy 2:15

APOPTOSIS:
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS is operating at a different level.
They have been steadfast, resolute and committed.
I hold no grudge against them. They downplay commercialization of churches.
They entertain persecutions a lot, in fact more than several Christian bodies.
Seems in their church everyone is at same level irrespective of your degree, financial acquaintance and contacts.
And it seems they obey the Bible the most:
-They hardly disturb neighbors during prayers.
-They frown at intimidation and flamboyant lifestyles.
-They ensure financial gifts are covered and never displeased at whatever they recieve.
-Their members would make good politicians but they frown at politics
I respect them. I judge based on actions and not what I'm told.

BafanaBafana:
Quite true. JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are actually one of the few denominations who are still following Christ. Most churches now are headed by motivational speakers who only use the name of Jesus to preach other things. The goal is to attract members to their church and the members will bring the money.
Shikena!

Oye0404:
well said, once had a witness DAT comes around for years, truth is,dis guys are so caring and accommodating. lots if misconceptions about dem..

XXLDICK:
They remain the most peaceful Christian denomination.
They do not pay tithes. They are the only Christian denomination yet to be commercialized. They are my favourite.
Cons:
They do not recite the national anthem.
They do not participate in elections.
They do not accept blood transfusion.

freethinker01:
Tho I don't like their disturbance, I'd have to say they're far better than all their Christian tithe whoring counterparts.

boss1310:
The way they are hated makes me to think sometimes they might be the true Christians but I might be wrong.

Deway52:
I am convinced that JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are the real religion, they do everything in line with the bible.
Na small time remain for me now, I don enter. If everybody in the world is a jw the world would be a better place.

Love800:
I would love to be a JEHOVAH'S WITNESS, because of their gentle life. Relaxed service and programs(not those stressful and loud types), and serenity of their church yard. Infact, its this serenity of their abode that blows my mind!

But the thing that worries me, is their misled teachings. How can you say that we are not going to die, but remain on earth and unite with our love ones and live happily together forever!

Julia25:
Let me break it down for you in the simplest form, "did Jesus predate time?" A simple yes or no will suffice.

Both Jesus, angels, Adam and Eve predates time.
Anyone who exist before the rebellion in Eden predates time because there was nothing like time before sin set in it was after sin set in that time began and Adam had to die within a specified time so if Adam never sinned there won't be any need of time since we will all live forever!

Julia25:
Adam is not our God, Jesus made Adam or as you put it "God used Jesus to make Adam " and yet Jesus is an angel . How does this work? Mind you, Jesus was before the creation of time. Does it mean this angel is immutable?

Firstborn of all creation means Jesus was created by God first before God later gave him the privilege to create others just as God gave Adam the privilege to populate the earth!

AngelahFlo:
I don't wanna go down a path the Word of God hasn't led me. What you're saying does not align with what the Bible says. I'm a witness to The Word and I'm guided by it. If I tow this path, it'll be a never ending argument so just know that you're wrong on that summation. The saints are the ones who'll make heaven and that includes all who do His will on earth. That's what my bible tells me

It's OK i'm not here to agree with anyone because if you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses you're not my brother in faith it's only when a fellow Jehovah's Witness disagree with me that i will feel something needs to be done but as for you there is no reason to agree in the first place after all you're not one of Jehovah's Witnesses!

Julia25:
kkk, but what if you were birthed by the "first born" ?—That's the submission of scripture

This is where most readers gets confused because God using Jesus to create all other creatures doesn't make Jesus the Father or God of this creatures.
To illustrate think of Adam who is equally called God's Son just like Jesus {Luke 3:38} through Adam all humans came into existence does that makes Adam our God?
Do you know that some humans believe that they have the right to take the life of their own child because they caused or brought the child to life?
JnJesus fully understands that being the one God used to create other creatures doesn't make him their God instead Jesus called obedient humans his brother and acknowledge that we all have one father one God! John 20:17

Ken4Christ:
I acknowledge all these scriptures you are trying to lay emphasis on. But, your problem is that you don't want to look at any other scriptures that affirm Jesus is fully God.
If Jesus is fully God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God but all three persons are one God, not three Gods. This is trinity in its simplest explanation.

Now it's obvious that you just love lying to your own soul what we gathered from all those that has been to theology schools is that Trinity is a Mystery that is why Trinitarians are confused when it comes to the definition of Trinity.

So stop lying that it could be explained in a simple way!

When talking about David we know him according to the Bible as:
Shepherd boy.
Psalmist, composer and singer.
Warrior.
King.
The above titles makes us appreciate the part David played in ancient Israel.
But later we discovered some bad traits in this same man we also know him as:
Womanizer.
Adulterer.
Murderer.

But despite the bad traits in this man God focuses on the good side of David and chose him to become the forefather of Jesus.

In David's time Isrealites knew him as one of their brothers an Israelite, son of Jesse from the tribe of Judah but when he became the anointed King of Israel they started referring to him as "Lord"

Jesus is from the lineage of David though not just a human like the rest of us but an angel in heaven who has been in control of all other angels because he is the first to be created and God gave him the privilege to create all other things both in heaven and on earth that's why he is rightly called the first born of all creations! Colossians 1:15-16

So if Jesus later speaks of the glory he shared with his father before creation it doesn't mean he is God Almighty rather he had the privilege of being the first of all creatures.

Julia25:
Probably, the word "ontological" was misleading as it might have suggested us having the inherent substance of God, that's not what I meant but rather we will have his "nature"—attributes. That's more befitting and doesn't cause confusion.

Never mind jàre whatever Jesus shared with the father will be shared with all of us since we are all worshipers of the same God including our brother Jesus.

Rebellion has been defined as:

*Armed resistance to an established government or ruler.

*Defiance of authority or control.

*An organized, forceful subversion of the law of the land in an attempt to replace it with another form of government.

Is Olukoya trying to say there is an organized system well placed in order that some individuals claiming "pastors" are turning against?

Christendom Churches aren't organized so what exactly is Olukoya trying to say?

The title "GOD" reminds us of the supernatural so we don't expect to see such with our physical eyes rather we can only perceive God through our mind's eyes.
For example all sane adults know that papers don't fly but can you convince your little child that papers can't fly without something carrying it?
Surely you have to tell the child that there is an invisible moving matter carrying the visible paper.
Likewise when talking about God or Gods the only way to perceive them is through the reactions of humans they are controlling.
Most people finds it difficult to believe in God because they can't see Him but they believe the wind even though they can't see it.
WHY?
Because wind when heavy carried different objects and move them towards the same direction!
So if you see people from different races, languages, nations, tribes and tongues unitedly doing what is good while the rest from those same places finds it extremely difficult to cohabit peacefully do you just assume that such a thing happened coincidentally? Isaiah 2:2-4
Before you respond please remember the objects moving towards the same direction even though they are of different shapes, weights and sizes!

ocnovakmichael:
Scripture says, "As his part is that goeth to battle, so shall his part be that lieth by the stuff: both of them shall part alike."

Why do most Bible readers love quoting the 17th century English translations instead of the modern day English translation?

DeepSight:
Is it safe to say that you thus believe that you and all your fellow "saints" are God?

Of course!
Since Jesus is a brother to his disciples and shared the same nature with God as given to him and all his disciples will equally be given/possess the same nature then all believers are not Gods but God.
Note that Jesus said himself and the father are one {John 10:30} and his disciples will also share the same glory to become one with God and Jesus {John 17:22} so all of us are God not Gods o!

Julia25:
It's boomark's claim
Just going with the flow of his position.

OK, so the word "Godhead" is nowhere in the scriptures.
Thanks for this!

JimRohn:
Your “reasons” collapse once examined. Let’s address them one by one, with clarity and logic.

1️⃣ Prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament
The so-called “prophecies” you refer to are vague and later reinterpreted. Jews themselves — the custodians of the Old Testament — do not read them as predictions of a divine Jesus. If the very nation entrusted with the Torah never saw your “Trinity” in their scripture, your claim is nothing more than retrofitting verses to theology invented centuries later.

2️⃣ John the Baptist’s role
John was indeed a great prophet, but even he never said Jesus was God. He called him the Messiah — a human prophet and servant of God. The exaggerated Christian spin that John’s humility somehow proves divinity is a leap of logic. Great prophets always humbled themselves before God’s chosen servants.

3️⃣ The voice at baptism
Hearing a “voice from heaven” is not proof of divinity. At Jesus’ baptism, the text itself distinguishes between God (“This is my Son”) and Jesus. If Jesus were literally God, why does another voice need to announce it? This scene shows separation, not unity of essence. Furthermore, the Bible often uses “son of God” metaphorically (e.g., Adam, Israel, David). To seize on this one usage and make it literal for Jesus alone is inconsistent.

4️⃣ Jesus forgiving sins, raising the dead, accepting worship
Jesus himself said: “I can do nothing by myself” (John 5:30). Every miracle he performed was by God’s permission. Prophets before him raised the dead (Elijah, Elisha) and performed wonders, yet no one called them God. As for “accepting worship,” the Greek words often translated as “worship” in the Gospels also mean “respect” or “homage.” Bowing before prophets and kings was common in Jewish tradition and never implied divinity.

5️⃣ “His words will never pass away”
If that were true, why do we have thousands of conflicting manuscripts, with additions, deletions, and alterations acknowledged by Christian scholars themselves? The Qur’an, not the Bible, is the scripture preserved word for word for over 1,400 years.

6️⃣ Jesus raising himself from the dead
If Jesus raised himself, then who raised him? The New Testament itself contradicts you:

Acts 2:24 — “But God raised him from the dead.”

Acts 3:15 — “You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead.”

Romans 10:9 — “…God raised him from the dead.”
So did he raise himself, or did God raise him? Your claim is self-contradictory.

7️⃣ Worship after death proves nothing
False gods and idols have been worshipped for thousands of years too. The persistence of worship is no evidence of truth. Longevity of belief does not equal divine reality — otherwise you’d have to accept Hindu deities or Pharaoh’s worship as true.

8️⃣ Worshipped “interchangeably with the Father”
That’s precisely the problem: polytheism disguised as Christianity. Worshipping the Father and the Son destroys the absolute oneness of God. The very first commandment is clear: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is One” (Mark 12:29). Jesus himself repeated it — but Christians replaced it with later church doctrine.

9️⃣ “The Father blesses the worshippers”
God blesses even disbelievers in this life (health, rain, provision). Material or emotional experiences are not proof of doctrinal truth. If blessings proved divinity, then idol-worshippers who prosper would also be worshipping the true God — which you would reject.

🔟 “He is alive and active today”
Yes, Jesus is alive — but as a prophet and servant of Allah, awaiting his second coming. His life is no proof of divinity. Many saints, prophets, and martyrs remain alive in the unseen world, but no one calls them God.

The bottom line:
You have not provided a single explicit, unambiguous statement from Jesus himself saying: “I am God, worship me.” Instead, you stack assumptions, reinterpret verses, and rely on later church theology. Islam’s message remains pure and uncompromised:

> “Say: He is Allah, the One. Allah, the Eternal. He neither begets nor is begotten. And there is none comparable to Him.” (Qur’an 112:1-4)

Jesus referred to his disciples as his BROTHERS God has never referred to His worshipers as such and in conclusion Jesus said his father is our father and his God is our God! John 20:17
There is only one evidence of pure worship but nobody cares to examine it so only practicers of pure worship knows it, there is no contradiction among them and they are producing the fruit expected of true worshipers of God!

Julia25:
So let me guess, according to you, Jesus was given God's nature . Ok...what nature did he have as the word of God before his earthly dispositions?

Also, let me see what you understand by the "Spirit of God" because technically God is a spirit but yet he has a Spirit? Is this spirit in the same nature has God?

I don't get what you drive at , if you state the nature of God in its fullest is imputed or "given" to the God head then based on capabilities, are they not the same? Your "diversification" is more functional, as the Father is the head of Christ which is well exemplified in the logos; the same way the man is the head of the woman . Still, they are of the same nature.

Do you understand the above? You are only focused on functional roles not ontological roles. If this is your full-proof rebuttal then you are just repeating trinity creeds

The bible also adds that we will be like him, Christ, therefore we will have his nature because he has the nature of God. Hence our end result, ontologically speaking, is God(or like) but functionally we are subject to Christ.

Do you also understand the above?

Please where is the highlighted written in the Bible?

Let us break it down!
Territories always leads to dispute just as it led to Nigeria/Biafra war, Israel/Gaza war, Russia/Ukraine war, Iran/Iraq war, Ifẹ̀/Modákẹ́kẹ́ war.

Racism always lead to wars because when dragging territories people will support their tribe or race.

Politics always leads to war because each prospective ruler has his or her own supporters who are ready to fight in support of their preferred ruler.

Religion can never ever lead to war because each of us will choose the god of his or her choice but when one person wants to dominate the others (politics) that's when he will brainwash gullible people practicing false religions while they go ahead to kill or get killed while he tells them they are fighting for God who never showed up to them rather it's the human who keeps telling them lies in the name of God/Gods so as to achieve his or her own goal.

So if each person truly wants to use their brains won't they first verify what God says?

lawani:
Did we die when all cultures held on to their spiritualities and theologies?. No. We had one less reason to fight and kill each other. The world will be better off that way. Without religion

Do people go to war for territories?

Do people go to war for racism?

Do people go to war for politics?

Do people go to war because of religion?

You need enlightenment because the answer to the first three questions is YES while the last is NO!

lawani:
Earth will be returned to spiritual tranquility and decorum as it was before religion and peace will be negotiated. Wars will end. It is a matter of time but it will not involve the whole world becoming Jehovah witness. Infact religion has to end before peace can be guaranteed as religion itself is another cause for war.

You are deceiving yourself!

It's like telling people that the only way to avoid dying by food poisoning is to stop eating totally.

Ọmọ it's by verifying the type of food you eat not avoiding food completely because that will speed up death kíákíá!