₦airaland Forum

[quote author=rich_john link=topic=255892.msg3666706#msg3666706 date=1238489001]I think the 'rapture' has been the greatest 'invention' into the christian faith. I dont know where it came from (surely from the pit of hell) most pentecostal churches today believe in 'rapture' quoting 1 thessalonians4:16-17 and 1 cor 15:51-58 but these scriptures doesnt look anything like the rapture. Jesus never mentioned it when the disciples came to him to ask about end-time events(matthew 24), Daniel never said anything like that, the whole of revelation never mentioned it then where does it fit in among the event of end-time?[/quote]there is no word like the rapture in the bible, the rapture from popular christian fiction that is largely extra-biblical or the ambiguous christian eschatology that attempts to rewrite and ignore jewish eschatology. paul clearly expected this event to happen in his lifetime, as he obviously counts himself amongst the living. since this obviously did not happen then, that makes paul a false prophet because his prediction was not 100% accurate. In the I Corinthians passage, we again see that paul fully expected to be one of those alive when the events happen. In fact, in both this passage and the I thessalonians passage, he is quite positive that he will be alive to see it. again, his prediction did not come true. He is therefore, a false prophet. so the conclusion can be summarised as

1. paul made a prediction of an event that would happen in his lifetime.
2. paul's lifetime expired without the event happening.
3. paul made a false prediction.
4. since the prediction is false, the event will not happen.

segyemaro:
Mazaje,has your own god heal an amputee before?

you keep saying that i am a muslim, i am not. . . . .

ttalks:
Those verses in the bible are definitely from the bible,but the whole scenario or argument u're raising is definitely ur opinion.
The article I posted deals properly with the issue of freewill.

Human beings (without God)have freewill,but this freewill is subject to their nature which is designed as part of God's purpose.
Human beings (with God) have freewill,but this freewill is subject to their new nature which is powered by the grace of God.

these are your opinions because nothing like that is written in the bible. . . . .

ttalks:
The fact simply is:

Without God, we cannot be saved.
Without God,our freewill would not have led us to believe in Christ.
It is God that enabled us to be saved;and anybody being saved is saved due to God enabling him/her to be saved.
Anybody saved or being saved by God has been ordained to salvation,so everything is just flowing as God purposed it to be.
[/b]
In Christ,our will is subject to the will of God.

you have made the point yourself, why are you still talking about "free will"?

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense."
— Chapman Cohen

"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into."
— Jonathan Swift

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true."
— Friedrich Nietzsche

"Most men would kill the truth if truth would kill their religion."
— Lemuel Washburn

"When religion comes in at the door, common sense goes out at the window."
— Lemuel Washburn

"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

"If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow the teachings of the new, he would be insane."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

When I became convinced that the universe is natural, that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space. I was free — free to think, to express my thoughts — free to live my own ideal, free to live for myself and those I loved, free to use all my faculties, all my senses, free to spread imagination's wings, free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope, free to judge and determine for myself , I was free! I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds."
— Robert G. Ingersoll, 1896

"People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them."
— Dave Barry

A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.
— unknown

oyb:
just goes to show that christians are duplicituous and guilty of double standards

they have the 'word' so it is alright for them to hijack muslim threads, and make all sorts of absurd assertions and 'proofs', to repeat cheery picked quotes from the Quran within their own context , etal.

when atheists pay them back in their own coin they start bitching about idiocy vs freedom of speech.  they hide their bitterness with mumblings about how they are 'indifferent'

very well said, we can see that they are clearly uncomfortable with the questions we pose or when we show them verses or actions by their god they never thought existed in the bible. . . .they feel the have the right to show muslims and prove to them all the sbsurd assertions of the koran but when you show them how absurd their own arguments are they beging to shout like headless chickens that we are spamming the religious thread.

osisi, the atheists are doing the same thing you are doing - educating you about the facts about your religion. leviticus is in your bible. it has not been abrogated. the only thing keeping christians in check is democracy. as i have said before, there was a time when the world lived by your religions tenets, and that time was the dark ages. there is NOTHING you say about Islam and Muslims that your forerunners did not participate in, - burning heretics, war, etc. you may say they were not acting on the bible - then maybe you can point me to what the Quran says about suicide bombing. any such claims are nothing more than plausible deniability (the soldiers acted on their own.) if tomorrow, bashing Islam falls out of favor and christians are castigated for it, your fellow christians will immediately deny you - oh theres nothing in the bible about demeaning other religions, those who do it are not christians

ask here to tell you the real day that jesus was crucified and she will tell you that you are attacking christianity because it is the truth? how can christianity be the truth when the document that talks about it(bible) can not even tell the real day that jesus was crucified?

you people cannot even be consistent about your hatred of Islam. i caught davidylan in a lie once, he said he started on Islam when he met muslims attacking christianity on NL. another time, it was after september 11.

as to Muhammed and pedophilia -

forget about that stupid liar. . . . .

this was from davidylan on the 'faggoty' thread. all he obviously stands for in the end is winning arguments on the internet.
anyway keep on trying, maybe one day you will convert someone through your rants against Islam on the internet. you may be able to so more and more venom among your fellow christians towards islam, but thats where it ends. like the atheists, you and david are simply a thorn in the flesh. a discomfort, but what the hell , the muslims back then had to face the quraysh. we have it easy.

abeg 'sons of lucifer' carry on! the bible says do onto others, not so ?

i want to know why it is ok for christians to tell muslims how stupid their beliefs are and turn bitter and angry when we show them how stupid and absurd their own beliefs are?

LadyT:
This is what we are talking about look at how mazaje is rambling on like a madman.

Do you have brain damage mazaje because I am seriously concerned at the level of foolishness you are displaying.

yes i am a mad man, next. . . . .

ttalks:
The portion which I boldened is a blatant lie in relation to davidylan and some particular Christians on this site.There definitely are some Christians who quote verses out of context but "some" Christians aren't all Christians.

But,even if it were true,must u follow a wrong example to prove ur wrong case?

You quote verses in isolation of the whole message of the bible so ur theories or undertandings are false.

You said the article I posted is just someone else's opinion.Ur own post about freewill is definitely ur own opinion and not a proven fact so save ur energy.

you have failed to show me how they are my own opinion and you have definately failed to show me how the passages i posted are in isolation from the entirety of the bible's message. if they are truly in isolation i believe you our the famous bible defender on nairaland davidylan would have quickly pointed or showed me. . . .

JeSoul:
So what exactly am I not seeing then oga Bawo?

You opened a topic last week. I replied several times, and answered your cry for scriptures . . . you never came back, instead you abandoned it and have opened 2-3 more since then asking for more answers.

are you angry because i didn't reply to you post? , did i open 2-3 more threads asking the same questions i asked on the previous thread? i didn't reply to your post because the answer you gave were nothing but funny apologetics so i decided to let it be. . . . .you copied and pasted different things from different passages of the bible and claimed you have answered me. . . anyway i will reply your post if that is what you want. . . .

davidylan:
Really? who would have thot that? with the way you guys obsess about religion (infact its safe to say Huxley, mazaje, duduspace and co only exist on the religion pages) i'd have thot atheism meant an affront against christianity.

the way thou hypocrite is pre occupied with islam leaves me asking and thinking if christianity means an affront against islam.

bawomolo:
i still believe it's a case of confirmation bias (seeing only what you want to see).  

If dividing into sections, brings order then so be it.  Maybe another mod.  


Mazaje - there's nothing else to be said. Seun should just make the section

i dont care if seun makes the section or not i just want to know why christians feel the have they right to insult other people's faith and get mad when others do the same to them, they hide under the pretext of we spamming the religous thread when we know that they are not comfortable with most of our post. . .

[quote author=**osisi link=topic=256119.msg3670453#msg3670453 date=1238526984]and you're afraid of the ones on nairaland ?
I'll rather be a LovePeddler than a faggotty backyard bandit with anal hole of 5 CM in diameter[/quote]the ones on nairaland are not radical enough for me? i'll rather be a faggoty backyard bandit with a 5 cm anal hole than to be a LovePeddler that sleeps around with pigs. . . .

and this fool will say that atheist can not survive with out christianity, can you ever survive without islam? why are you so pre-ocuppied with something you believe to be a farce?

JeSoul:
I have been to the forum less than a minute ago and see no evidence of your accusation:

Simple questions:
You accused David and Osisi of spamming as well so I asked:

  How many times have David and Osisi opened threads in the Islamic forum?  Have they opened multiple threads for the same topics?

David said he has opened only 2 topics there in 5months. I can't even find one from Osisi. Do you admit you were wrong?

is this what this thread has turned into? opening of topics? . . . does it matter if he has opened 1 or 2 topics in 10 years? david and osisi are all over the islamic thread calling allah a devil, mohammed a saddist fool, but when we call yahweh a stupid fool he gets all emotional and accuse of ridiculing a deity he reveres with his own life. . . . why is it right for christians to call atheist fools for not believeing in their god? but wrong for atheist to show them the inconsistencies of their own argument?

Chrisbenogor:
You guys are still at it, I hail oh bros mazaje! (You don come back?) And oga david, una love no dey end

chris i dey hail ohh two days wetin dey pa?

davidylan:
where is your evidence that they NEVER spoke greek? If Peter, a disciple could speak greek . . . why do you think Matthew or John could not? Are you dunce aware that Luke wasnt even a jew but a Greek?

where is you evidence that they ever spoke greek? of course i know that luke wasn't a jew, mark and luke were not even amongst the disciples of jesus.

JeSoul:
 hehe      

 Which is why I'm not letting Mazaje go after making an accusation against Osisi and David that is entirely untrue. They have not now nor ever spammed anywhere in the religion section.

pls go and read some of the islamic threads once again. . . . .

[quote author=**osisi link=topic=256119.msg3670380#msg3670380 date=1238525677]you owned up to being the vermin I made reference to?
Is this why you're silent about Islam?
because you're quaking in your pants?

when did you stop typing in pink?
faggotty atheist
Yo're now in " Finnland"
On your way to San Fransisco,the land of fruits and nuts[/quote]i go to moslem fundamentalist sites when ever i want to ridicule islam and its teachings. . . .i wonder if you can ever stand in front of any moslem and tell them how you feel about them thou foolish LovePeddler. . . . .

davidylan:
are you surprised?

thou hypocrite is that not how the bible is? is that not how you guys quote the bible? you take verses and mix them up to form a narrative but when you read the verse in context it means something else completely, you have done that so many times on nairaland you qoute a particular verse and paste to support your assetions but when you read the verse in context it says something else. . . . .

DeReloaded:
Dont know about others but I know this is a lie cos David never lets an argument go, esp a religious one

Arent you the ones stating atheist have high IQ?

Isnt that implying that those who believe in a spirtual being are dumb? what's the difference?

i have never said that atheist are more intelligent than religious people, i only question religious assertions and show the inconsistencies in their arguments thats all i do here on nairaland. . . . .

[quote author=**osisi link=topic=256119.msg3670322#msg3670322 date=1238524974]erm

bawomolo calling someone an idiot?
thank God for the internet.
any vermin can swim out from any creeks and type what's on their mind.(as though they had one)
Thank God for Al Gore and the internet [/quote]thou fool if not for the internet i wonder if you can ever stand in front of any moslem and tell them whet you always say about islam on nairaland stupid fool. .

davidylan:
How does he know not even one of 13 spoke greek? Isnt this the same senseless, proofless arguments we've come to expect from these people who hyperventilate over everything in the bible?

Its just like asking . . . why was the Nigerian constitution written in English? Greek and Roman were the dominant cultures of that time, infact to be regarded as "learned" you must have either learnt the greek or Roman language just the same way we mistakenly equate literacy to the ability to speak and write fluent English even though its a borrowed langauge.

Paul studied and could speak Roman - he was widely respected as a learned man . . .

It is quite impossible to believe that disciples who travelled to so many foreign countries to preach the gospel could only speak aramaic - a language that was only understood by jews. Imagine Peter at Antioch, was he speaking aramaic there? When Paul went to the Greeks, was he speaking in Hebrew?

And these same dunces claim to be intelligent? What a laugh.

where is your evidence that mathew and john ever spoke greek? i am not talking about paul, peter and the rest thou idiot. . . . .peter did not write the gospel did he? did paul write the gospel? the bible implies that jesus'disciples were not educated. . . but the gospels were written by very educated greek speaking people.

[quote author=**osisi link=topic=256119.msg3670267#msg3670267 date=1238524267]Let them air their views
They are entitled to it but the many threads on the same topic seems so juvenile.
I hardly ever read them.
bores me to death and I'm sure I'm not alone.
I'll rather be studying beccomerich's aerial photos[/quote]how many time will you be talking on the same thread on the islamic thread thou hypocrite?

LadyT:
Must you repeat yourself?

All these sily people who bash Christians only do so because there is no risk of a fatwa being issued or someone trying to track them down and kill them due to them insulting their god.

I dont see anything wrong with asking questions but some people are so consumed with hate its a joke and ruins things for everyone else.

we bash christianity because christians call us fools for not believing in their god, the day i will tell christians that i do not believe in the existence of jehovah and the will not raise an eye brow is the day i will stop showing them the inconsistencies of their beliefs. . . .

JeSoul:
Mazaje enough with the smoke screen and answer my questions first.

  You accused David and Osisi so I asked:

  How many times have David and Osisi opened threads in the Islamic forum?  Have they opened multiple threads for the same topics?

uncountable times, davidylan opens threads and runs away so many times when he has been caught lying. . . .go and cheeck it out. osis just goes there and tries to show them that they are all fools for following islam. . . . not that i have any problem with that but why should you guys whine and complain when the same thing is been done to you?

DeReloaded:
*when

Lmao NL is a site for "Christian fundamentalist"? 

of course this is the only site that i can post on the religious section and not get banned, i have been banned on so many other christain sites. . . if suen were not an atheist our post would not have survived here at all. i asked very simple questions on other christian sites and i get banned immediately. . .

davidylan:
LMAO!!!

is that not the same thing you are doing on the islamic thread? seems you guys really dislike the taste of your own medicine. . . .

JeSoul:
Yes they are there but how many threads have they opened in the last 1 month?

 How many threads on[b] the same topic [/b] have they ever opened in there or elsewhere?

 Nobody is saying people shouldn't contribute and post in different sections . . . JUST STOP SPAMMING THE RELIGION SECTION with rants. Shikena.

pls can you tell me what the rants are? is asking questions the when jesus first appeard to 11 of his disciples rants? i looked into the gospels and saw two very contradictory accounts that cancel each other out, one account says in a room in jerusalem another says on a maoutain in galilee are these not legitimate questions? am i ranting when i ask for the real day that jesus was crucified? one gospel account says on the eve of passover while another says on the day of passover, these are legitimate queations don't you think so?

DeReloaded:
doing what you're afraid to do.

why i want to attack islam i go to moslem fundamentalist sites. vist yanabi and you will see a lot of my post there. . . . .

christians don't want a taste of their own medicine eh   ? davidylan and osisi what are you guys always doing on the islamic thread thou hypocrites?

why will any of the gods out there heal an amputee?

ttalks:
Freewill and bondage of the will

Freewill may be described in very simple terms, in the context that we speak, as the liberty to choose between good and evil.

Bondage of the will is a term I use to describe a Biblical fact that the will of a person is in bondage to his nature i.e. he cannot engage his will outside of his nature. An example: because God is holy, He cannot sin. That is clear from Scripture. Another example: because man is sinful, all his thoughts, actions and choices are influenced by his sinfulness. According to the Bible, even his apparently “good” or “righteous” works are all evil before God. That is why Paul was bold to write:

Romans 3:10-12 ESV
10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

We may say a man is good, but before God all men are evil and unrighteous, without the imputation of the life of Christ.

All these are the writters intepretation and opinion of what is written in the bible.

A brief outline:

Adam was created indeed with a free will
Adam was originally neither good nor evil
When Adam disobeyed and ate of that tree, he chose the path of evil, and became corrupted by nature. That corruption has been passed to every man born of man and woman ever since. We are all born with freewill, but now that will is limited to the boundaries of fallen humanity. That will only exercises itself towards evil

The two-fold nature of God’s will

All these are the writters intepretation and opinion of what is written in the bible

A study of the Bible shows a two-sided dimension to God’s will. One, there is God’s will in the sense of what He has planned for to happen, chosen to do or has chosen to allow happen.

Two, there is God’s will in terms of what He has commanded men to do. For the purposes of brevity, we may call the former “God’s sovereign will“, and the latter “God’s will of command“.

Reconciling these two dimensions of God’s will has always proved difficult for man. But let’s see an example: God had a plan for man that He knew would involve sin. He knew man would sin, and chose to allow that in His plan. Sin didn’t catch Him by surprise. He knew it would happen and He wove it into the plan. It was His choice.

But still, God commands man not to sin. He knew Adam would exercise his freewill to bring humanity into subjection and bondage to sin. He chose to allow this happen, but His commandment to Adam was, “Don’t eat of this tree“.

again the writers opinion and interpertation of what is written in the bible. another christian will disagree with most of his assertions.

God knew murder would happen. He allowed that in His plan; yet His command to man is that man is not to kill.

the biblegod commanded men to kill so many times in the bible so what is this?

The dilemma of many people here is that if God allows evil, surely that makes Him bad. No; it doesn’t. God’s nature is not subject to human opinion and sentiments. Let me put it to you as Scripture puts it: all of creation was subject to corruption by the will of God, and for a greater good. Here:

Romans 8:20-23 ESV

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

God worked out His plan for man such that all creation (man inclusive) would be subject to corruption. Romans 8:20 says He subjected it. There’s no way around that. God did it; yet He didn’t sin. He didn’t whimsically do it, for no reason, or because He is maverick, or has an ego that needed to be satisfied. But He did it all the same. It was His plan.

To suggest otherwise is to suggest that God has not always been sovereign, and that He failed at some point, having been caught unawares, and now is attempting to rectify the mess. But God has always been sovereign. He has always been in control, even when evil seems to be triumphing.

I ask: how would man know what mercy was, if he never messed up and needed mercy? How would man know what submission was? Love? Hope? Faith? These values would mean nothing if God had not acted as He did. But enough of that for now.

I believe I have presented a clear-cut, Biblically valid case of God’s will in its two dimensions.



Why command what is impossible?

Since Adam, man has been unable to choose good without God’s intervention. Another dilemma people face is that they wonder if God is not evil to command people to do things He knows that they are unable to do. No; He is not. He gave Adam a clean slate. Adam planted humanity in corruption. It was Adam’s choice, as our representative. The rest of us are subject to the results of that initial choice. That’s the way God ordained it to be. It was His choice.

Let’s look at the Law: God gave the Law of Moses, knowing fully well that no man could live successfully by the Law. He knew men would break it again and again. So, why did He give the Law?

Romans 5:20 ESV: Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Romans 7:7 ESV: What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

God gave the Law to make clear to man that he is incapable of doing good by himself. It is the same lesson from Adam and Eve’s fall. Though created sinless, they went astray almost immediately.

Now, see what this passage in Romans 8 says:

Romans 8:1-8 ESV

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

See it right there? Natural man is in bondage to sin and death. Man cannot get free on his own. Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh. Who lives according to the flesh? All men. Who cannot set their minds on spiritual things? All natural men. All unsaved men. They cannot. They are not able to because their will is in bondage to their nature.

Verse 8: those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Natural man is “in the flesh” and cannot please God. It is an inability. Natural man is in bondage to sin and death. His will is always exercised in that direction. Yes; that will is free, but limited to WHAT HE WANTS TO DO. And all he wants to do are fleshly, carnal, sinful, and anti-God.

Those in the flesh cannot please God. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek him (Hebrews 11:6 ). Those in the flesh (sinners) cannot please God; they cannot have faith apart from God; for without faith it is impossible for them to please God.

Yet, God specifically commands all men to believe. Here is the sum total of Scripture - that man apart from the intervention of God (specifically as made possible through the cross of Christ) CANNOT and WILL NOT go in the right direction.

Let me lay it clear again:

1. those in the flesh cannot please God
2. sinners are those who are in the flesh
3. without faith it is impossible to please God
4. as such, sinners cannot exercise faith
5. faith is a gift imparted by God (I have provided Scripture for this earlier)
6. if God does not enable a man to believe, that man cannot be saved
7. as such, only those that God selects/elects/chooses and enables to be saved are saved

all these are the writers opinion and interpretaion of what is written in the bible, i can provide verses from the same bible that will counter everything that the writer has written.

Truth11:
your FREEWILL. God gives salvation to the humble and hardens the wicked as he knows the hearts of men. he crowns the humble with salvation.

is this the new excuse?   there is no free will in the bible can you show me where such a word exist? i noticed that you did not even attempt to take on the passages i posted.

Your speech reveals about you, not about the Bible.

Jesus said that who ever calls another person a fool is going to hell fire, but shortly after he said that he call others fools. even jesus can not live up to his own rules. . . .

They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire , In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings.

who are the celestial beings? have you ever seen any?

One main work of the devil is to accuse the children of God day and night, his other name is ACCUSER OF BROTHERS. Why are you taking that role.

who is the devil have you ever seen him?