₦airaland Forum

InesQor: Who am I to tell? Lol

I forged my own path in Christianity after wandering through many paths. And that's good for me.

Coool. . .

Chrisbenogor: 58 pages and counting, a goat has no business with nuclear science.

I have a few questions I would like to ask.

1. Its one thing to say you think this planet could not have been here by mistake, its another thing to say you as a human being, with your human attributes, know beyond all doubts what this being is, how this being is present or not, how this being exists in time or outside of time, linear or circular or cylindrical and then go on in the next sentence to say we can never understand the being like really! really!
How possible is it that?

2. So yes I agree that this being miraculously did all these things, but who says the being gives a rats ass what we do on the planet? IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL! and yes before you say the ways of God are not the ways of man, if we do not understand the ways of God it makes no sense using a manual written when kentucky fried chicken was not in existence to say this is what the being wants no?

sheeeeeeesh!

I sometimes get angry when they claim that we can not understand their god or their god is not bound by human logic. . .It is a VERY dubious claim. . .The idea that their god is not bound by logic is frequently stated more subtly like "Well, it's just a mystery" or "Who are you to question god?" which to me is a defeatist attitude. . . .Christians come up with these silly excuses ONLY when they have their backs against the wall and try to explain away or dance around some christian claims that do not make sense at all or can not stand up to basic scrutiny other wise LOGIC is the ONLY thing christians use when talking about their god and what he wants from people, when they are faced with ridiculous assertions of the christian faith that can not be supported at all they come up with the "god's ways are not human ways" forgetting that the same god was written to have said that "come let us REASON TOGETHER" at some point in the bible. So how can you reason together with an entity who you can never understand by logic since reasoning involves logic alone?. . .Check out all their explanations, all they use is simple human reasoning and logic when explaining what their god wants of people and how he operates, when they they have their backs against the wall and can not explain absurdity away they come up with the nonsense card of god can not be understood. . .Nonsense!

jayriginal: Very well said!

If you show them inherent evil in their god or religion, they tell you their god is beyond human understanding. They make the case that one cannot understand god with man made constructs and understanding. Ok. Tell me then if it isnt with man made constructs and understanding that they say god is good ?

I tire. . . The problem is that deep inside their minds they truly want to believe in a logical god, and only excuse their god from logic in specific instances to allow themselves to hold conflicting ideas at the same time that's all to this sorry of an excuse. The claim that "God is not bound by our human logic of beyond human understanding" comes up every so often. The claim that god somehow supersedes logic or is not bound by human understanding is usually invoked as a defense for the so-called "paradoxes of christianity for example" Jesus is 100% god and 100% man. God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful who acts like a father figure to all christians as a source of protection but still allows christians to suffer unnecessarily while doing nothing no protect or help them from their sufferings and miseries. God is one, yet god is three different entities. God planned everything out from the beginning, yet everyone has free will, and therefore it's your fault if you suffer or if natural disasters comes and kill people off for no reason at all. The bible has plenary inspiration, yet it was written by human authors who wrote from their own limited perspective. And on and on. Religion is believing and accepting what OTHER MEN tell you about what they know nothing about.Religion is people pretending they know what they know actually nothing about and ascribing all their theories and hypothesis to invisible and imaginary deities.

The problem with the christians here is they always use human analogy when trying to explain things about their god. . when we use the same human analogy to show them that their god assuming he exist is a complete failure we hear very special pleadings and twisting of every thing we know to be right as humans just so that their god will have a pass. . .

Assuming the christian god exist then he is a great failure. . .Why do christians pray for protection in the first place?. . .If anony sees a man r.a p i n g his 5 year old little girl anony will try his best to help her out. . .Anony's god that is said to do all things allows many r a p i s t to have their way with little kids that call unto his name for help most of the time. . .

Assuming anony's god exist then that god is complete a failure. . .No human being will behave the way he does. . .

^^

Well done. .

Logicboy03: Dont worry Majaze, everyone is seeing that Ihedinobi is dodging! Imagine asking if you are kidding after repeating the question!

Anony dodged the question and changed the topic, did you expect his disciple to do any better?

I just TIRE!. . .LOL!

Ihedinobi: You're kidding me, right?

I am asking you a question. . .What is your answer?. . .

Ihedinobi: Oh, why did I even bother? These 'others' you're appealing to are people I hold to be at least as dense as you. What's the point of pointing me to them? Have you shown how his whole argument failed to deal with your initial 'simple' question? That you asked two questions does not mean that in answering one, Anony failed to answer the other. You do understand that, right?

Pls what are you on about here?. . .Where did I asked two questions?. . .i asked one question and anony created a question out of it and answered his own question, when I asked mine he said he wouldn't answer. . .Just to cut the chase here it goes let me ask you the question. . .I said I hold that the free will argument doesn't really makes sense because even the bible does say that some people are without freewill and I cited some passages that stated so. . .The dire consequence of the entire thing as presented by christian theology is what does not make any sense to me that was why i asked the question. . .

Here now is my question to you. . .Assuming you know before hand that your child whom you love so much will disobey you, take your car keys and end up having an accident that will leave him dead. . .Will you drop your keys where he will have access to it or keep it out of his reach? if you keep the keys where he will have access to it he will die off but if you keep it out of his reach he will remain alive. . .Pls let me have your answer. .

Ihedinobi: It's more a question of whether or not you were indeed following his arguments. If somehow his arguments haven't already answered your question and he thinks they have (as indeed he has said he does), you could show him how he might be mistaken and thus place him under obligation to answer your question. I personally hold that you atheists and agnostics are too proud to even consider that you are wrong or don't know everything you need to and ought to know. I hold that you are all expert at making excuses to escape bowing to arguments that discomfit your position. So, it's only on whims that I would bother to engage you. You should turn to Anony and tell him how his arguments failed to answer this 'new' question of yours.

I made my points and asked a simple question. . .he refused to answer it. . .he then used the analogy I presented to answer a very different question from what i initially asked all because he wanted to divert and change the line of argument. . .I insisted he answered my question and he said he wouldn't. . .I know his tactics. .Luckily others here saw what he was up to and voiced out. . .

musKeeto: My broda, i taya. I've learnt to just let him be.

There are many posts he has made here, that contradict some of his earlier posts on this forum sometime last year...

but we all learn and make mistakes, don't we?

Sure. . .That was why I just let him be and smiled to myself. . .Anony will always be anony. . .

Ihedinobi: The above only confirms what I was convinced about before you guys started. You really could care less what Anony's arguments for free will and omniscience could be, no? Well, it doesn't matter. I wouldn't be surprised if you're trying to squelch the war inside you with already answered questions. It won't go away like that, my friend. You want to stop that warfare, just tell yourself that Anony is a phool for believing what he does. There's no guarantee that that will work either, but it should work better than making a phool of yourself repeating questions that have been well answered.

What was his answer to my question?. . .PLS tell me. . .Didn't you see how he refused to answer?. . .Did you get what I was saying at all?. . .

musKeeto: Ah, just lit up my darkness. I like the way you argue your points..


heehehee..

He knows very well why he doesn't want to answer. . .I asked him a specific question and he changed it. .I repeated again and he said his answer isn't necessary. . .Anonyism on display

I have read a lot of nonsense here but this one truly deserves an award. . .

SNCOQ3: ^ Why is it rubbish? Do you know that online por.nography is leading more people into atheism than the so-called theory of evolution?

LOL!!!!

[quote author=Mr_Anony2]From where I stand, it is unnecessary that I answer the question posed by this analogy since we have already tackled the underlying argument behind it sufficiently.[/quote]OK. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony2]I think your objections have been dealt with conclusively. All you are doing now is merely repeating them in the hope of stretching the discourse unnecessarily.[/quote]Just answer this question. . .
If you know before hand that your child will disobey you,take your car keys drive off with the car, have an accident that will end his life. Will you drop your car keys, knowing very well that your child will disobey you and the disobedience will end his life. . .Will you still go ahead and drop the car keys where he will see it?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony2]Good, now think about this carefully:

If you hold that the future has multiple outcomes, then you'll agree that our choices indeed matter. Now would you rather that God fixed the future so that you acted according to script or that God allow you to make your decisions and warn you about the outcomes even though He knows what decision you'll make and if you will heed His warning? Remember that we have established that the fact that He knows what you will choose does not mean that He is therefore causing you to choose it.

You see on the one hand you want God to step in and control the outcome by presetting the conditions for everyone. Essentially, you want Him to fix the script. The problem with this is that if the script is fixed, then no one is really making choices rather they are just acting out the movie of life.

On the other hand, you want your choices to matter. For that to happen, God has to let you write your own script and only provide guidance while leaving you the choice of whether to heed His guidance or not.


Now, from the moment God created free-willed beings, the possibility of sin was born. But then one cannot really be said to have a relationship with God if one doesn't do it out of his/her free-will. One cannot be said to love if one does not choose to love.
God is not interested in our "good works"(we simply can't be good enough to impress God) if He wanted good works, He could easily have created "good-working robots" rather He wants us to be in a loving relationship with Him and for this to happen, we must have free-willed beings capable of love.[/quote]I don't have any problem with the free will argument at all. . .What I disagree with is the way you guys have been presenting the free will argument. . .It is not completely biblical. . .In the bible it talks about god hardening people's minds according to his will or saving people according to his will. . .It even talks about god creating some people for destruction already. It says some people were called and chosen to be saved already before the creation of the earth. . .Where then is their free will?. . .Sure every body has the right to choose what ever he or she wants. . .But the bible does not say that EVERY body has the right to choose. . .It talks about god's will and him hardening or saving who ever he wills. . .That's just my position. . .I careless about free will and I am not making any argument of for or against it as a good or bad doctrine. . .Just saying that it is vague from the bible and not s straight shot. . .

I'll use your father and son analogy to further illustrate this: As a father, does knowing that your children will disobey you mean that you shouldn't have them?
Will it be good of you to refuse to have children because you don't want disobedience to exist in your family? (I'll accept that you are well within your rights to do this)
Following from the above; In the case where you've had children and where your children act in disobedience, is their disobedience therefore your fault because you created that possibility by bringing them into the world?

If you know before hand that your child will disobey you,take your car keys drive off with the car, have an accident that will end his life. Will you drop your car keys, knowing very well that your child will disobey you and the disobedience will end his life. . .Will you still go ahead and drop the car keys where he will see it?. . .

musKeeto: The guy's an uneducated muslim davidylan... lol

Perfect description. . .

Stop making the mistake of thinking that people believe in their various religious faiths because it makes sense to them on an intellectual level. It doesn't that is why they always explain things away with absurdity. . .They pride themselves in saying that the wise will perish and other cliches along that line. . .Most of the people that practice one religion or the other were nurtured and indoctrinated since childhood into the religion as a child and no longer are capable of questioning their religion. . .The fear of burning in hell alone will make people to lie to themselves than to admit that their religions does not make any intellectual sense at all. . . Religion allows for answers to everything. Christianity allows answer for anything as long as you can manipulate the bible and make it say anything you want. . .This really appeals to people a lot. . .Stop thinking people believe in their religion because it makes sense. . They believe in it and hold unto it because it is their religion. . .Imagine a university graduate saying that wet dreams are caused by demons on the other thread. . .I used to believe the same nonsense any way. . .

[quote author=A-town]Are you kidding me. Please dont tell me you believe the jibberish you wrote up there. A wet dream, like puberty is a natural occuring phenomena. No demons here. Abeg oo. After dem go say Nigerians dey educated well. Your instructors in college should be ashamed.[/quote]Brother, its almost a hopeless case trying to educate these people that choose to be willfully ignorant. . .They keep regurgitating traditional myths and legends as if they are true. . Worst of it all is that they just don't want to open their minds to knew knowledge and learn its very sad and troubling. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony2]All well and good, I have heard your reply, however you didn't answer the question I asked. Please kindly answer it.[/quote]Sorry, i forgot to answer. . .I hold that the future has multiple possibilities. . .

[quote author=A-town]Why is it that these spirits are only peculiar to Africa? Do we serve a different God? Why is it that the "Oyinbos" that actually "BROUGHT" religion to us never have these spiritual husbands/wives.
People lets wake up and stop deceiving ourselves. If you're having symptoms, please go see a DOCTOR. You may have a previously undetected illness. There is no such thing as spiritual spouse. Chikena.[/quote]I TIRE ohhh. . . .No be small thing. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony2]Good, i promised I'll come back to this so here goes:

I'll like you to consider this carefully. From your analogy, notice that the fact you know that your son will disobey you doesn't in anyway change the fact that he CHOSE to disobey you. The real question I perceive that you are grappling with is not that God's omniscience affects free-will rather what you are really unhappy about is that since God knew before hand, why didn't He stop it before it came to be. Notice that those are two different things entirely.

Now to help us along, I will ask you one question and I want you to think about it carefully before you answer. Do you hold the view that the future is fixed or do you hold that the future has multiple possibilities?[/quote]Sure. . .That's why I stated that its nonsense, it is just used to explain theology away. . .When you look at the who concept and narrative critically its a complete nonsense. . .No responsible father will do that to his child. . .Even the bible has god being bitter and regretting why he created humans according to the story. . .An all knowing good showing regret and becoming angry over what he already knows will happen is just impossible. . .Humans express regret and anger over things because they can\t control them most times, as a human being if you have the ability to make things go right and you allow them go wrong and later express regret people will punish you if they can. . .Its just a concoction of one idea after another to explain jammed stories and narratives that make no sense at all. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony2]Good so I'll take it that you do believe that freewill exists since your reply to this thread was not an illusion but something you chose to do and consequently did.

Now think about it carefully this carefully: Does the fact that I knew that you will choose to reply my comment mean that you didn't actually freely choose to reply?

My point being that if I my ability to predict your next action does not in anyway contradict your freedom of choice then the fact that God knows whether you will choose Him or not does not take anything away from your ability to choose Him.

For more on the omniscience paradox, see this video below (You can start from 1:40)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JRsHIN5ATY[/quote]Sure, I understand. But The whole concept is nonsensical to me be because the whole concept comes with a dire consequence at the end . .For example. . .If I drop my car keys and tell my son not to take the keys and drive the car in my absence, but he chooses to disobey me and I know already that his disobedience will make him lose his life, it will be foolish of me to drop the car keys in the first place. . .Any way the free will idea from god remains a concept used to explain theology away. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony2]@mazaje, Does freewill exist or is it merely an illusion?

Please think about my question carefully before providing your answer[/quote]Free will which is freedom to choose to do things willingly exist as a concept and is applicable in some cases. . .But free will to serve a god that is said to know everything. .It is said such a god knows the end from the beginning, this to me is just some imaginary conception because it actually makes no sense. . .

Ihedinobi: Abeg, how is anyone this unabashedly dumb?

Explain how he is dumb pls. . .

MacDaddy01:


Lets see Anony and co comeback for that one

Some one tried pointing this out to William Craig and the way had danced round it left me shaking my head in shame. . .

MacDaddy01: For me, it is fun to always point out that they are arguing over imaginary stuff. It stops them cold in their tracks.


My favourite argument here is the contradiction in their failed philosophy on freewill. How can an omniscient God offer freewill? If God knows everything that will happen, how can there be freewill when he has seen whatever you are going to do? Your fate is already written in stone in his mind, no deviations.

I TIRE my brother. . . .LOL!. . .

Ihedinobi: Not that anyone expects you atheists to eat sand gracefully, but don't blame davidylan for your poor grasp of the Bible and philosophical issues. That's all on you, man.

In any case, try and get honest. Don't call free will imaginary nonsense here and go debat morality on another thread. If there is no such thing as free will, there cannot be any such thing as morality either.

Morality is real and remains a man made creation. ..People create all the moral codes of conduct they chose to live by. . .No god has ever created any moral codes for any body to abide by. Humans created everything . ..All the moral codes of conduct written in all religious books were written and created by humans and ascribed to what ever concept of god they had in mind. That remains the FACT. i HAVE MOVED WAY PAST ARGUING OVER IMAGINARY CONCEPTS AND ENDLESS PHILOSOPHIES THAT ARE IMAGINARY . .Go and read the Egyptian book of the dead it was written long before the OT and part of it has laws similar to the 10 commandments. . .

MacDaddy01: Thank you!

Anony and co delude themselves with their imaginary philosophy. They think freewill is a gift rather than an idea that comes from a functioning mind.

Once davidylan started saying atheist claim not to believe in god but blame him for not giving them free will i just withdrew from the conversation. . . Free will remains a concept and an idea that supports another idea. . .It has nothing to do with reality. . .Free will is just an idea like original sin. . .Both have nothing to do with reality. . .There was never an original sin that hangs on every body's neck. . .Even the jews that created the adam and eve story do not accept or believe in the original sin that christians bandy around. . .I have stopped wasting my time over baseless concepts and ideas that have nothing to do with reality. . .

Image123: you can know if you're inspired by God.

You cabn also know if you are inspired by allah or Xenu, no?. . .

MacDaddy01: A god or "creator" doesnt have to be good to give freewill. This is also imaginary because freewill is not a gift. It is not something one can give,, rather only a complex mind can rationalise that it has freewill. A psychopath from birth has no freewill because he lacks the mental capacity to control his urges. This would make God a failure in "giving" freewill or then, it would show that freewill can be given.




Pure imaginary philosophy to argue against Kay17 imainary philosophy used to argue against Davidylans misunderstanding of good and bad. What the hell does a "deviation from light" mean? That is a meaningless statement right there.

Imaginary philsophy can only raise questions that either have no meaning or no answere since they have no effect on the real world.


Ground your philosophy in naturalism/materialism and you wouldnt end up in endless and unstoppable arguments

I made the same mistake here, trying to engage davidylan in imaginary philosophy that has no real life applications. . .I just love your analogy with the psychopaths. . .Now with advanced brain studies we now know that some people are born naturally as psychopaths. . .Yet we have people argiunbg about imaginary concepts like free will and non free wiil nonsense. . .So which god appeared to them and told people he wants them to obey him or disobey him. or are they just regurgitating the ideas conceived by the ancients people based out of their own myths?. . .