₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Are you saying that God Himself brought sin into the world or that sin came as a result of man's actions?[/quote]I am saying that you are not painting the real picture of what the bible is saying. . .According to the bible we were born with sin already. . .Even the Adam and Eve story is a very nonsensical story that shows how perverted the bible god is. . .It talks about god punishing Adam and Eve for disobeying him even when he knew they did NOT know the difference between right and wrong. It then goes to say that the whole of humanity is suffering as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve. .I was actually surprised that even the Jews that wrote the perverted story do not believe in original sin. . .Jews do not believe in original sin only christians and their twisted logic accept that nonsense. . .

If we are to reason logical and not accept mythology on face value, the story of how sin came into the world is completely nonsensical. . .To start with you can not complain or accuse some one of disobedience when it is clearly stated that the person does not know the difference between right and wrong. . .You need to know what right and wrong is before you talk of disobedience. . .

The bottom line is your analogy does not portray what is written in the bible. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]This is like a man drowning in the sea and when God sends him a rescue boat, he rejects it and demands that God should dry up the sea instead. Well, God will not force the man into the boat against his will.[/quote]This analogy is not what is portrayed in the bible. . .According to the bible god threw every body into the sea and claims that you have to believe in him before he rescues you. . .The bible says those that do not believe in Jesus are condemned already. . .It also claims that all were created sinners and some were created for destruction already. . .God chooses what to do with people what ever he wants according to his will. . .Its funny how people like anony will always want to re-define everything or change the bible to make it look all good. . .That is the same thing that makes William Lane Craig say ridiculous and nonsensical things like he believes god did not inspire people to write all the nonsense in the OT and the people some how got it wrong bla bla bla(When he still claims that the bible is the irrefutable word of god) how dishonest can one be?. . .Always lying to themselves to protect ancient mythologies writen by ancient savages that believe menstruating women need to be segregated. . .

The belief exist and people actually kill others with the hope that it will make them rich, but that is where it ends. . .Killing people and expecting it to give you money the way it is propagated in Nigerian movies is very false. . .It is a deluded myth. . .

Logicboy03: lol.....again with the sophistry and shenanigans.

Question everything. The church was right in questioning the scientists but wrong in dismissing evidence.


Burden of proof lies on the claimant. Atheism makes no claim. It is a simple disbelief in God. We ask the people who claim that there is god to give us evidence

The proof is that ALL gods are man made. . .No god can be shown to exist on its own independent of human writings, cultural and societal acceptance, human inventions or what ever humans chose to say about such a god, which they invented. . .The theist here claim their god speaks the human language, talks to people, is all powerful and can do all things yet the are the ones telling us about his existence based on some indoctrination and condition they have under gone for very many years. . .The fact that they are the ones telling us about their gods existence says it all. . . .

^^

But even in the bible we have god using man's standard to accept that he does evil and apologised for it. . .

9 And said unto them, Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, unto whom ye sent me to present your supplication before him;
10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you. Jeremiah42:9-10

musKeeto: @topic and Anony
Btw: this is a quote from the frontpage...



ignore the evidence..

Most Nigerian theist behave like the poster whose nonsense you just quoted. . . .

www.nairaland.com/attachments/980975_q6ewvlC_jpg0d7e57e125a1b65396973617dbb489ba


Very funny. . . . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]There is no such thing as the "muslim God", there is just God.[/quote]False, there are various gods and goddesses. . .Shiva,Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, Alpala etc. . . .There is the muslim god the one founded by mohammed and his cronies about 1400 years ago. . .He is not your Jesus. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I was respondind to muskeeto as regards vedaxcool's last comment. I thought he was insinuating cowardice on the part of vedaxcool.

As for the op, No I don't think he is brain dead and besides, I quite agree with him especially as regards you in particular. I have often told you that you exaggerate the so-called "atheist discrimination". From where I stand, it appears to me that you are merely playing the martyr.

I see no real discrimination of atheists in Nigeria. I also didn't see any significant discrimination towards me when I was an atheist. At the very worst I got called names like "demon possessed". I didn't even get as much insults then as I get now from atheists on this forum.[/quote]This is completely false. . .We can put your statement to test. . .If a person comes out and declares that he is an atheist will such a person ever be allowed to hold a political office in Nigeria?. . .We all know what the answer to the question is. . .I have seen a few atheist in Nigeria and I always personally feel they made a mistake for not telling people that they were atheist. . .You need to see how adherents of the Grail message are been treated talk more of atheist. . .You can be killed for openly declaring your atheism in Nigeria and that is a fact. . .

Logicboy03: lol....when Enigma can espouse his christainity in the north or go to the islam sectiona and open threads, then he can talk

As if his own faith extends to respecting other people and their faiths. . . .He believes in the writings of deluded men that claim if you do not believe in their mythical stories you are condemned already and calls others fools for not believing in their god hypothesis. . .Yet he still comes here and talk about duplicity. . .I laugh in koine greek. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Perhaps you should start by telling us how you would react if your daughter converted to Islam.[/quote]I will do NOTHING and will never server any ties with her. . .She will still remain my daughter and my relationship with her will not change from my own side. . .My ex girl friend is a muslim. . .

Enigma: ^^^^ More yada yada yada!

Next?

Enigma is still responding?. . .Will he keep to HIS OWN words and stop making a fool of himself?. . .

Enigma: ^^^^ Yada yada yada! Next?

The guy still can not keep to his words. . .He is still responding, eh?. . .

Enigma: And you are too obtuse to know that in life one sometimes makes an exception ----- for particular reasons.

You are way to deluded for me to take you seriously. . .You actually think that I take the rubbish you spew here seriously to the extent that I will feel bad because you ignore me? . . .You are truly foolish and very deluded . . .You still remain a deluded fool for not keeping to your words. . .

Logicboy03: lol


The same way that you claimed that Dawkins was a mumu/dunce without any proof or argument.


ABEG. Its sunday, dont you have some children to indoctrinate at sunday school?

Can't you see that he can not even keep on to his own words?. . .

Enigma: ^^^ And you know the category I have placed you for a long long long time: 'just a mumu; to be ignored'.

That is the source of your pain. Pele oh.

And you are responding to the .... that should be ignored, eh?. . .Who is now the .... here?. . .Enigma the deluded .... that can not even keep to his own words. . .

Enigma: ^^^ A sufferer from the enigmation syndrome, quite clearly.

You have even tagged your delusions and meaningless nonsense as enigmation, eh?. . . . . . . .You just have to love nairaland. . .If only you know how I laugh when ever I read your nonsense, you will not use the word "sufferer" when associating me with your delusions. . .

Logicboy03: Well, Toba is only honest about islam. At least you can have a discussion with Toba.

Enigma lies about everything. The worst part is that he is not even ready for a discussion. He brings some selectively mined quotes forward as an argument. I ont know whether he lacks confidence in his own words

He is just a deluded character that can not make a simple case for himself without quote mining others. . .But then we need every body to be different so that things can always be spiced up and interesting. . . . .

Logicboy03: Its not only David that can learn honesty. Toba and Enigma as well

You can not put honesty and Enigma in the same sentence. . .He has nothing to do with honesty, maybe Toba can learn some honesty from the guy's post, but honesty is not what Enigma can be associated with. . .He has no business to do with honesty. . .

poopli: here is a food for thought.

THERE IS NOTHING MORE COWARDLY, PUSSILANIMOUS THAN BEING A XTIAN OR MUSLIM, FEARING HELL THAT YOU HAVE NOT SEEN AND CANNOT PROVE AND BELIEVING HEAVEN THAT YOU HAVE NOT SEEN AND CANNOT PROVE.

ONLY THE STRONG CAN BOLDLY SAY: SEEING IS BELIEVING. THESE ARE THE ATHEISTS. AND AGNOSTICS

SO XTIANS, NO ONE IS A COWARD EXCEPT YOU.

Imagine the goons living their entire lives according to the dictates of a STORY book with mostly UNKNOWN authors that LIED all through, and the same goons have the effrontery to call others cowards. . .I laugh in Aramaic. . .

poopli: hey david, you again. am waiting for your answers on origin in ooman's thread. anyway, Eat this .

ATHEISTS LOVE TO DEBUNK XTIANS BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE A LITTLE. ISLAM IS DAMAGED BEYOND REPAIR, HAVE YOU READ THE QURAN AT ALL, IT CONTAINS NOTHING THAT MAKES SCIENTIFIC SENSE.

AM AN AGNOSTIC AND I ALSO SPEAK AGAINST XTIANS AND BIBLE BECAUSE I FEEL THREATENED BY ITS EXPLANATIONS, IF NOT, I WILL JUST ABANDON THE BIBLE LIKE MOST ATHEISTS DO TO QURAN.

SECONDLY, SPEAKING AGAINST THE QURAN MIGHT GET YOU BOMBED AND KILLED, MUSLIMS ARE ANIMALS, WHO WOULD DEBATE WITH THEM?
SO WE FEEL SECURED ABUSING XTIAN GOD AND DEBUNKING THE BIBLE THAN DOING THE SAME TO MUSLIMS BECAUSE NO MATTER WHAT, XTIANS CANT JUST BE CRAZY ENOUGH TO KILL FOR THAT.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

. . . .Laugh wan kill me for here. . .

[quote author=senbonzakura_kageyoshi]Fact is, people know waaaay less about Fela's stand on religion as compared with, say, his music. Same for Wole Soyinka. When both names are mentioned, first thing that comes to mind are their works, not religious standing. And if you ask most Nigeria what religion either of them adhere to, most Nigeria would tell you that they don't know.

The issue with atheists in Nigeria is rather similar to the issue with gay people in Nigeria (though atheism can't be outlawed by the government in a supposedly religious tolerant country). For celebrities and popular people in Nigeria, your religious (and even sexual) details don't really matter. But if you're just the guy next door, minding your own business, and it comes out that you're atheist, people around start looking at you as a heretic, an anathema and a hell bound sinner (trust me, I've heard people say this. In fact, you don't even need to go beyond Nairaland to know that it's the truth).

I'm a Christian, but live and let live is my mantra. If we all agreed on everything, the world would be a very boring place. The best I can do is give a sound argument on the basis for my belief and leave you to draw your own conclusions. Calling you names just so I can guilt you into accepting my religion is weak, and makes me a religious bully. I view atheists and agnostics (and pretty much every other non-christian) with a kind of fascination because I like to learn about other beliefs and belief systems and, at least, we can have cracking arguments .

So I can totally understand why logic boy would choose to keep his views on religion private from those close to him.[/quote]Davidylan, learn some honesty from the guy up here. . .You remain a liar as long as this topic is concerned. . .

Davidylan is OBVIOUSLY DELUDED and a LIAR. . .Davidylan should HONESTLY tell us how he will react if his child tells him that he has jettison his religious mythology and embraced atheism. . .

Davidylan should try and become an atheist for a day in Nigeria before LYING foolishly. . .

davidylan: What was this thread about?

My only contribution is this - Proverbs 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

. . . .

Laugh wan kill me here

There are no miracles today because miracles like the ones written in the bible are MYTHs and LEGENDS. . .They are not real but ONLY STORIES that never happened in reality. . .

Mavrick2012: (1) Their are about 73 DIFFERENT languages in Taraba state alone,48 in Plateau,60 in Bauchi,58 in Adamawa,57 in Kaduna,38 in Niger,29 in Nasarawa and 28 in Borno.

(2) Apart from Sokoto and Zamfara state, EVERY other state in the north has indigenous Christian population.

(3) Except Benue,kogi,plateau,Niger and Borno,the remaining 14 state's heads of traditional councils are all Fulanis.

(4) The sultan of sokoto is the only traditional leader that occupy's the highest number of offices in Nigeria:head of sokoto state traditional council,head of northern traditional council,chairman of the traditional council of Nigeria,head of Nigeria's muslim umma(congregation) and co-chairman of Nigeria's interfaith council.He also functions in various offices common with Nigerian traditional and religious leaders.

(5) A traditional Tiv man allows his "special" visitor or relation to make love to his wife.

(6) After "sekin uku",i.e third divorce,a northern muslim can remarry his divorced wife only if she (a) marry's another man,(b)have sex with him atleast once and (c)get a divorce from that man.

(7) Boko haram was founded and being run by Kanuris (not Hausa/Fulanis)

Some of your facts are wrong. . Taraba state does NOT have 73 different tribes, same with Bauchi, it does NOT have up to 60, Bauchi has less than 15. . .The state with the highest number of tribes in the north is Plateau state and the number is about 60. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I never said it was simple, I only said it was singular[/quote]OK. . . .

Good then you understand what I am saying. In fact when you ask the question "who wrote X software?" The default assumption is usually one person and not many people. It may well turn out to be many people but you don't just start your investigation by assuming many people. It is just not the reasonable way to go about it. This you know

OK. . .What I said is that the possibility of it being many is very high as well. . .

We both know that your login name is not proof that you actually typed that comment. Anyone ranging from your mother to your pet cat could have created that comment. Heck it is even possible that your login name itself was not created by you but by one of your friends or even your cat walking across your keyboard or even 500 people taking turns to press one key at a time.

Ohh really?. . .I can call my mum and she will come and try to sign in and we will see if she can do that. . .I don;t even have a cat in my house so that option is completely off the table. . .No animal resides in my house. . .500 people?. . .If you want convincing evidence, it can be shown. . .Credible and convincing evidence to show that your god alone created anything. . .

Of course, I haven't written out the possibility I'm just saying that it is an unreasonable possibility to introduce at the beginning of our investigation because it will only serve to muddle up the investigation at the onset rather than help it. Remember we are working from design towards finding out who the designer is. It doesn't help us if we start by attempting to falsifying the designer from the onset.


P/s: Notice how irrational I'm being about proof of your creation i.e. your first comment. Rather than at least accept the most plausible explanation and then build from there, I am throwing in all sorts of possibilities at the beginning. It will never help our investigation when the aim is not to discover but to discredit.

Both of us can either get reasonable and logically work this thing through or we can continue playing the part of the irrational skeptic. I'll oblige you either way

OK, but we know that people come together and design many complex things. . .Its is nothing new, many people already believe that many gods created the universe because it is not something strange but something that is common and acceptable in the human society, you are only trying to begin the argument from your own position because you feel it will suite you. . .Many complex designs have many designers, most of the complex strueture we see around were never created by a single person. . .Even a house is not built by one person. . .So there is nothing wrong to begin with many creators, since it is already a very common thing and many others already began from that position, i.e their many gods created the universe. . .

There is NOTHING irrational there. . .It is something that is common. . .We have to look at all possibilities, not just stick to one. . .If you have the evidence that your god alone created anything then just put it up already. . . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Spot the contradiction in the bolded[/quote]Yeah, sorry, my bad. . .wanted to say it was complex and not simple. . .

Actually, most complex structures are designed by one designer. I am an architect by profession and I have worked in design teams and the procedure is usually one designer and many helpers. In fact I have never come across a situation where the concept is not the brainchild of one man. What usually happens in a design team is that all the other members of the team criticize the design and then gradually tweak it as they move along. As for the design itself, it is usually born from the mind of one person.

Sure, I am a soft ware developer and system analyst as well. . .And i know how designs are made. . .People criticize and also offer their own opinions. . Over all, help mostly come from outside sources in one way or the other. . .

Lol and how will that prove that it was not your cat that typed it the first time?

By login in with my user name and password, it shows you at least that I am the man behind the post. . .

Not necessarily.

Sure, not necessarily but possibly. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Good so are you basing your counter on science?[/quote]I base my counter based on empirical evidence, and science has provided some. . .The creation story written in the bible just does not fit or agree with observable evidence. . .Even christian apologist have now discarded it as an allegory when it was not originally written as an allegory. . .

Why designers? Why propose a more complex explanation when a much simpler one would suffice? Why assume multiple designers for one design when it could just as easily be one designer.

Nope, it is not one design, it is a very complex design, firstly many people that conclude that the universe was designed came to such a conclusion based on the fact that we as humans design complex things. . . .Most of the complex things we design as humans are always the work of many designers. . .So it follows that since the universe is very complex, its designers should be complex as well, since we judge the universe based on the way we expect our own human society to function. . .

Kinda like coming upon a person who has been been killed by one stab wound to the heart and your first impression is that there are many killers instead of one. While it is very possible that many killers all held the knife together and delivered the blow, it is far less plausible than one killer. And it certainly is a weak counter argument to the person who starts by hypothesizing a single killer unless you are less interested in actually finding the killer an more interested in countering arguments.

Wrong analogy, when I see a complex structure like a an Air bus A380, I will not just conclude that it is a product of one designer, the possibility of it being is a product of many designers is also very high. . .The universe is very complex as such, since we base our conclusions based on how the human society function, it also follows that it is very possible that it has many designers, actually many people already believe that their many gods came together and created the universe. . .

I hope you know that the evidence I was asking for is the comment you have already typed not the one you will type later.

I can still show you. . .I will hit the modify button, delete the first comment I typed and rewrite it again. . .So that you will see, that I wrote it. . .It can be done and you know that. . . .

The same question I asked you above: Why start an investigation by assuming multiple designers for a singular design when a singular designer is a much simpler place to start from?

Because it is a very complex design and if we are to go by what we know and what we see around us, complex designed often require a lot of designers. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]True... but in other to know that it is not 10, you must know how multiplication works and know what a likely answer would look like. You didn't provide us even a vague idea of what the right answer might look like. It is irrational to oppose a position in a vacuum. In order to oppose a position properly, you must define a counter position based upon which you oppose it.[/quote]Firstly the creation story in the bible(since we are talking about the bible god) does NOT agree with what we see around. . .It has no scientific backing. . .Even reputable christians and christian apologist like William Craig claim it is just an allegory. . .But i was not written ORIGINALY as an allegory. . .Example, the earth(with water in it) according to the myth was created before all the stars and the sun. . .

If you don't agree that precision and improbable complex order that characterizes our universe is evidence for a designer, then you must tell us what you think is most plausible upon which you base your disagreement. As I said earlier, you can't oppose a position in a vacuum

Why not designers?. . .

Inasmuch as it appears that you agree here, you also give no basis for your agreement and from your comment you are also not prepared to accept a series of preceding arguments so I really can't help you. Your request (especially how it is phrased) is irrational.

It is like me asking you to prove that the first comment you presumably typed on this thread was actually created by you (presumably a human person) and not something else ranging from humans to robots to cats walking along a keyboard to atoms randomly forming mass and depressing keys on a keyboard. . . .and no I will only accept "objective evidence" and not "philosophical ramblings".

Perhaps you have noticed how irrational the request I made above is. Perhaps you have also noticed that I haven't really defined anything upon which I based my above request.

I can provide you such evidence. . .I can add you up on skype and show you via webcam as I login into NL, type my post and hit enter. . .It is something that I can do at this very moment if I want to, you will see me talk to you, log in and reply to your post in real time. You will be able to tell that it is not a robot or a cat. . .So my request is not irrational at all. . .You are making an extra ordinary claim and extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary evidence. . .

In the same way you cannot disagree in a vacuum, you also can't agree in a vacuum. There must be a basis for every claim or counter-claim.

So once again, I ask: Do you agree that the precision and improbable complex order of the cosmos is evidence that it has an intelligent designer? If yes we continue and move past your atheism. If no, Why? specifically

Ok, I agree. . .But why must it be ONLY a designer?. . .Why not designers. . .My computer is a very complex gadget and it was designed by many designers, so why must the universe have only a single designer and not many designers?. . .

davidylan: but you do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about this non-existent "God".

I am not worried about any god. . .I spend time arguing with people that hold the god belief. . .Gods do not exist, but belief if god exist. . .God is an idea that people believe in and I spend time arguing with people that subscribe to that idea(man made idea). Your god can not exist and I we will be here arguing about it existence. . .