₦airaland Forum

Ihedinobi: How perfectly silly. My friend, if God is all-knowing, would it not follow that He should always answer us according to what He knows is best for us rather than what we think is best for us? Consider Hezekiah in the Bible as an example since it is the Bible God we're indeed discussing. Did God not grant what he asked for and extend his life for another fifteen years? What was the direct result of that? Judah was invaded by the same nation to whom Hezekiah opened all his wealth when they sent emissaries to congratulate him on his recovery and led into captivity. You seem to assume that you know perfectly well what is good for you, why then do you give a damn about God and trouble yourself about people who willingly give themselves over to a God they believe knows what's best for them?

I once narrated a story about some christian missionaries that were on an evengalism trip but had an accident in adamawa state that left 3 of them bedridden for the rest of their lives. . .Pls what good does your god have in leaving people that called out to his name for journey mercies on his own project(evangelism)?. . .How does being bedridden and becoming a problem unto your self and your family have a better reason or cause?. . .STOP lying to your self and to others. . .You are not even ashamed of trying to speak for a being that is alleged to be all knowing, all powerful and wants to have a personal relationship with them. . .You think if your god truly exist he will allow people like you to do his bidding for him?. . .The fact that you are the one telling people about your god and how he operates shows that he is imaginary and exist only in your imaginations. . .

People like Ihedinobi and the nonsense they keep posting here will continue to be the reason why people will continue to leave christianity. . . Ihedinobi PLEASE read the nonsense you have been typing and see if it makes any sense to you. . .Even your fellow christians here are seeing through your nonsense. . .If you don't have any sensible thing to post just watch. . .You must not post by force. . .

Uyi Iredia: I no longer believe the Christian God is one filled with love. For I can no longer ignore the brutality of killing a supposed sinless child in order to forgive a people. As an atheist rightly asked; why not just forgive ? Neither do I agree with the wiping out of villages and cities as documented in the OT or the extremely harsh curse in the garden for a crime. A God of love doesn't indiscriminately kill or punish those who had nothing to do with the crime as done in thwe garden or as stated when God said he punishes down to the 3rd and 4th generation of sinners. Put simply, I no longer believe (as I once did) that the Christian God is loving.

Even the bile does not claim that the god it talks about is ALL loving. . .Christians are the ones that insist their god must be ALL loving. . .Jews actually do not have any problem with worshiping a god that is both loving and unloving depending on the situation. . .Jews do not attribute the all loving characteristic to Yahweh. . .A simple reading of the bible shows that the god it talks about is NOT all loving. . .It actually describes a monster in the pages of the OT. . .

Image123: it's deadly to leave the likes of Stalin to determine what is right and what is wrong.

Mass murderers like Moses, Jehu, David, Elijah, Joshua etc in the bible that were alleged to hand down your own god's moral codes are different from Stalin how?. . .

What's there to do on that thread. The thread has become senseless to me.

[quote author=inspiredbyGOD:.]That means that no one would really be morally upright if there were no punisment attached. This could be true. Nice post BTW on the evolution of morality.[/quote]Sure, the fear of punishment is actually what keeps most people in line in reality. . .When you tell too much lies, you lose your reputation and people will never trust you and many will not like to have any serious thing to do with you. . .The fear of such an outcome and the embarrassment that comes with it is what makes people not to tell lies most of the time rather than the love of god as many theist love claiming. . .

[quote author=inspiredbyGOD:.]You asked if I needed God to determine if murder is wrong or not and I asked if an atheist could murder for revenge. Note that most religions don't condone murder for whatever reason[/quote]But in most societies, the societal moral laws supersedes religious moral laws. . .Killing is not always wrong. . .It is actually right to kill in self defense. . .Killing murderers and other eveil doers to serve as a means of deterrence is also considered as a good thing in many societies.

@OP. . .
Morality is a man made invention. . .People created all the moral codes of conduct they chose to abide by. . .Human's have the ability to self reflect and always use that when creating and making better their moral codes. . .The goal of setting moral codes of conduct is for the better survival of the society. . .If we don't get our morals figured out right, we do things that create hardship, suffering, and conflict in the society. . .If enslaving others will make the society thrive better then slavery will be encouraged by the society. . .When the ancient jews felt enslaving their neighbors will be good for them and make them flourish better they said their god encouraged them to enslave those around them. . .When they felt stoning to death their children wills serve as a mean of deterrence, they said their god told them to stone to death their disobedient children as a good thing. . .

Morality is not set in stone it varies from society to society and is always evolving. . .Morality must be learned that is why parents spend a lot of time teaching their kids the difference between good and bad according to the laws of the society they live in. . .The fear of punishment is actually what makes people avoid doing evil most of the time. . .

Image123: you're dodging, artful atheist. Answer the question.

Submit to Allah as a loyal slave and avoid hell. . . .When you die you will know. . .You have been warned. . .

Image123: mazaje, i await your answer to this question. Why are you yet to surrender your life to Allah? BTW i observed you've deserted the thread, perhaps off to find some great question that finally convinces you that there's no God?

I am telling you what Allah the creator of the universe has written down in his book?. . .Give your life to Allah or rot in hell for all eternity. . .You have been warned. . .

^^

Try and watch them if you can. . .Very interesting. . .

No comments yet?. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UIfRN6HyKg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYQCqloONP0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fmU0U59dYM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEjr05HWDBQ

For the atheist in the house who have the time. . .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbCSKY9ASlk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzSfdog8Ax4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdujB3_bib0

@InesQor

Brother, are you becoming Mr Anony?. . . . . .Just kidding man


Deep Sight you have nailed it completely man. . .

I know about 5 people that graduated with 3rd class degrees, and they are more successful than most of the posters here on this thread. . .One of them has one of the biggest boutiques in Abuja. . .The other works in NNPC and is also a chartered accountant, one of them also has a very big poultry farm in Jos. . .They all have houses in Abuja and are doing very well. . .When we graduated from university back in 2004 many people wrote them off but today they are better than all of my mates that graduated with 1st class, 2-1 and 2-2. . .The grade you graduate with in school does not determine how successful you will become in life. . .

The atheist have been mocked. . .Let's laugh our asses off. . .

Image123: give me one reason why you haven't heeded this advice and two reasons why i should?

Because Jesus has never told me to give my life to him. . .If he wants me to give my life to him he should tell me himself after all he is the one that wants to be in a relationship with me according to you and others. . .

You need to accept Allah because his book that he revealed says that you will perish and suffer eternal torture if you don't and secondly because there is no god except Allah the creator of the universe. . .You need to obey him and serve him for your own good. . .

InesQor: I see your point, though if you reckon, the early Christians had Jewish scholars like Paul and teachers like Jesus who interpreted things (for all intents and purposes, it's just as well as any other Rabbi would have interpreted to write a Midrash). This was not at all a case of an outsider interpreting a Jewish book.

Oh well, to each their own

. . .

Image123: The fact has been stated, stop playing lost yet again. Give your life to God.

Give your life to Allah and accept Mohammed as his last messenger for your own good. . .Next!

InesQor: Exactly. The Midrash is simply a Scriptural commentary, so to speak, to justify oral traditions.


But this is not what I'm saying. Christian tradition does NOT hold precedence over the Jewish. Each one holds precedence to their own people. They both draw from the same source.

If in 1990 you wrote a thesis based on a paper published 200 years ago, and this year I write a thesis based on the same paper; does this mean that yours holds precedence over mine? Not at all so!

As for Rhapsody, I used it as an example. There are many devotionals that have a council behind them. Like Our Daily Bread etc.

The OT is a Jewish book and therefore the Jewish understanding of it should and must remain the only authoritative understanding of it. Again your analogy about the thesis falls here. . .The OT is originally a Jewish book not a christian book. . .The NT is originally a christian book yet we have muslims telling us things about the NT like Jesus not being crucified and the story of Mary for example and expecting us to believe it when their own tradition came many hundreds of years later. . .

Image123: Just can't stop talking, thinking and reading about the Christian faith, yet you ask if it's any different from any other. Insincerity.

InesQor: But this is the odd bit: most of the discrepancies between Old Testament and the Jewish scriptures are Midrashic. The Talmud contains the Tanakh and Gemara. Tanakh is same as Old Testament; while Gemara are like Rabbinical commentaries on politics and daily life for Jews, some of them re-visiting things said in the Tanakh.

TL;DR Talmud = Tanakh (Old Testament) + Gemara (Rabbinical commentaries on politics and daily life for Jews)

Meanwhile Midrash is a type of exegesis in which you make a whole teaching out of a character that is not prominent in the Tanakh, or does not even exist there at all. Two types of Midrash are Halakha Midrashim (Jewish law) and Aggadah (non-legal elements of Judaism) Midrashim. Midrashim in Halakha try to explain the source of and reason behind religious laws in order to prove their authenticity. Midrashim dealing with Aggadah cover a wide variety of topics and employ a much more liberal style of exposition than do halakhic midrashim.

TL;DR Mirash are like Gemara; but they are Rabbinical personal teachings trying to explain legal and non-legal elements of the Tanakh (our OT).

In short, the only places where discrepancies show between the Jewish scriptures and Christian Old testament have to do with Rabbinical personal opinions and teachings for daily life. AND yes, these differences matter, but they only matter to those that take the authority of those Rabbi as valid. Christians don't take the Rabbis personal opinions as valid, so I don't see why they should take it as an authority.

For the sake of analogy, this is like comparing Rhapsody of Realities by Chris Oyakhilome with actual contents of the Bible.

Simply put the Midrash is a way of interpreting biblical stories that goes beyond simple distillation of religious, legal, or moral teachings. It fills in many gaps left in the biblical narrative regarding events and personalities that are only hinted at. It is from it the understanding of various stories came from.The original purpose of midrash was to resolve problems in the interpretation of difficult passages of the text of the Hebrew Bible, using Rabbinic principles of hermeneutics and philology to align them with the religious and ethical values of religious teachers. This method of interpretation was eventually expanded "to provide scriptural pretexts to justify oral tradition"- Wikipedia . . .The christian tradition and exegesis came thousands of years later. . .Why should it hold precedence?. . .You analogy with the Rhapsody of realities isn't good enough because there is a tradition and council behind the midrash. . .The rhapsodies o realities is just the opinion of a single man. . .

InesQor: @mazaje:

Thanks a lot for that Yoruba example that you gave, it's a good illustration for what's going on between Jewish and Christian religions.

Did you know that those Yoruba people in Brazil practise syncretic versions of the Traditional Yoruba. Such religions are Candomble and Santeria, which are quite similar in fundamentals but very different from the original Yoruba traditional Ifa religion?

It is the exact same problem I already identified: when religious tradition is transferred orally, it undergoes all sorts of changes.

Now, we can't say that Candomble or Santeria are fakes and that Ifa is the original. Each one is an original, and each one has its own authority.

Sure, I agree. . .But in the case of the Jews the Midrash and the Talmuds survived. . .Remember the Midrash was written centuries before the new testament was written down. . .It survived along with the Talmud and the Hebrew bible(OT).

InesQor: Thanks man


This is exactly what I was explaining to Mazaje. A lot of the original records seem to be forever lost when Israel was destroyed, so it is hard to know which is actually "right" or "authoritative" between the contemporary Jewish account and the Christian accounts.

Records?. . .Nah.. .Most of the traditions were transmitted orally and do not require any record. . .Once the people survived the tradition survived as well. . .The hebrew bible still survived, same with the midrash that offers the explanations of the traditions. . .so what records exactly are you talking about?. . .Even the christian tradition and interpretations was not actually recorded any where, it was mainly transmitted from one generation to another orally. . .The lack of record assertion holds no water. . .

truthislight: The nation you see today and call "Jews/Israel" a secular nation is a far fetched from the nation of "kings and priest" you hear mention in the bible.

When the nation of Israel was destroyed in 70ce, they lost all their history that was in the temple that was burned down aside this info that was contain in the OT and what the christian NT contain.

This part was in the hands of other "Jews "scattered abroad"

What you have today is a secular nation that operate as any other nation and does not have Yahweh appointing their "king and priest" as it use to be.

They have a completely different ideology.

Am afraid, you miss fired again sir.

Peace to you any how.

They preserved their religion and its doctrines just like the way they preserved their language. . .Sure Jerusalem was destroyed but the people remained and still practiced their religion where ever they went to. . .Even before the story of Jesus came in, they had their own interpretations that they preserved till date. Once the people survived they continued their traditions. . .I saw a documentary long ago of a youroba tribe that were taken as slaves about 500 years ago and their descendants still worships ifa in brazil till date. . .The Hebrew bible still is available, the midrash and all other religious text that explains these stories are still available, so your claim that their books are all missing is false. . .A lot of them still maintain the original traditions and interpretation. . .The fact that ir does not agree with what the christian usurpers invented does not mean it does not exist. . .

Seun: This video made me feel so sad. It was heartbreaking to see people in great pain, who should be in good hospitals, forcing themselves to attend the show. It sucks to see them knowing that they would inevitably be disappointed in the end.

I don't think they get dissappointed per say else they will stop attending such shows regularly. . .They just use the god doesn't want me or my child to be healed as a consolation and go home. . .God or their pastors still get all the credit. . .

InesQor: Yeah, Christians inherited a lot from Jewish material. And I think when knowledge is transferred, especially via oral traditions, a lot of interpretation is subjective to the agents of transfer. They transfer what they remember, and in some cases they may even add their own perspectives.

The first Christians used some Jews as their sources. What if it was those Jews that informed the Christians that were actually correct in what they remembered, and the other ones were wrong? Not sure my point is coming across clearly but I guess it's hard to tell.

That's why maybe each party is best left holding on to their own authority and not trying to impose it on others.

You are always simple and straight to the point, thats why I like reading your post even though we disagree. . .Roger. . .

InesQor: Authority refers to an official, administrative or definitive exercise of dominant control or a potency of ideals within an association, organization, group or other collective. An authority is always restricted in its scope of office.

Thus, the Jews' interpetation is authoritative and holds precedence for them.
While that of the Christians is authoritative and holds precedence for them.
Same as the account of the Muslims is authoritative and holds precedence for them.

Doesn't get easier

The Jews invented all the stories not christians. . .Its the same as muslims laying claim to the Jesus story, making some changes to it and expecting people to believe it when christians came up with the Jesus story. . .

Deep Sight: On the question of authourity, there can not possibly be any doubt as to which is authouritative and which is not. The Jews have had their Torah for thousands of years. It is a Jewish book and therefore the Jewish understanding of it must remain the only authouritative understanding of it.

It is ridiculous, for a few Jews to start a splinter group with an altogether different understanding from the mainstream understanding of the Jewish scripture, and then claim any authourity in that regard. No matter how big and widespread Christianity is, it will always be merely a corrupted (and blasphemous) splinter from Judaism.

Here are just some of the differences in key beliefs between Judaism and Christianity:

1. Judaism:
- says that no human can ever die or atone for the sins of others and sins can only be atoned for by animal sacrifice or prayer and restitution
Christianity:
- says that Jesus died for the sins of mankind

2. Judaism:
- says that all humans are born pure, and innocent
Christianity:
- says that all humans are born with 'original sin'.

3. Judaism:
- says that no man gets a 'second coming' and the Messiah will not need one
Christianity:
- says that Jesus will have a 'second coming'

4. Judaism:
- says that every human should speak directly to G-d (without intermediaries)
Christianity:
- Jesus claims in the 'new testament' that the 'only way' to G-d is via him*

5. Judaism:
- says G-d is one, indivisible, cannot be separated into three aspects/incarnations
Christianity:
- speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

6. Judaism:
- says that we are all equally G-d's children
Christianity:
- says that Jesus was 'God's son' above all others, and any who accept him will become children of God

7. Judaism:
- has no concept of 'hell' or eternal damnation
Christianity:
- Christians say that non-believers go to 'hell' and are eternally damned

8. Judaism:
- has no 'devil', the Jewish 'Satan' is just an ordinary angel, under G-d's control
Christianity:
- describes 'Satan' as a devil and 'fallen' angel

9. Judaism:
- the 'messiah' will be a normal, mortal man who must fulfill all the Jewish messianic prophecies in one normal, mortal lifetime
Christianity:
- Jesus was the 'messiah' and will fulfill the Christian messianic prophecies when he 'returns'

10. Judaism:
- says that the righteous of all faiths will reach 'gan eden' or 'garden of Eden.
Christianity:
-Christians insist that only those who 'know Christ' can reach heaven

11. Judaism:
- forbids Jews from trying to convert anyone to Judaism
Christianity:
- believes in actively 'witnessing' and encouraging people to convert to Christianity

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_some_differences_between_Judaism_and_Christianity

Wow!. . .Very interesting. . .I didn't know that so much difference exist btw the two religions. . .The lack of proselytization is what has made Judaism a minority religion. . .I completely agree with you that the OT a Jewish book and therefore the Jewish understanding of it should and must remain the only authoritative understanding of it.

Image123: i already addressed it and quoted Christian authority to which you had/have no answer.

Christian authority?. . .

Just bumped into this thread. . .