₦airaland Forum

Stalwert: ^
I think the most irritating of all is to see atheists spend all their good time arguing with people they claim believe in fairy tales, I mean it does just make sense, I for one cannot spend my valuable time arguing with an adult who believes in tooth fairy, I mean believe what you want, I don't see how it disturbs, but on the contrary atheists I have seen in the forum spend good time refuting what they call simply fairy tales, that in itself is plain ridiculous indeed unless you guys really have nothings most of the time!

Your point is completely senseless and you KNOW it. . .I was in Nigeria during the christmas season for just two weeks. . .I was labelled the son of satan, looked down upon and treated by badly by some christians just because I dismissed and ridiculed their basis for tithe and pastoral worship(the argument was basically that you do not have to pay tithe to be richest people in the world do not pay tithes, it then evolved into the bible and I mistakenly talked loosely). . .These are people that did not even know I was an atheist. . .They use the bible to justify their delusions. . .In Nigeria today you can be killed for being an atheist and any body that claims my assertion is not true is a LIAR. . .Why do believers in Nigeria treat people badly when they tell them they do not believe in their god and their religion?. . .

If a person that believes in a tooth fairy ostracizes you, disrespects you and refuses to have regard for you because you lack belief in his tooth fairy mythology. . .You will spend a valuable time arguing with him about his tooth fairy mythology. . .That is the same thing the atheist do here. . .To claim other wise to to tell LIES, simple. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Please guys, check out this video if you may.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDavvndecE[/quote]Here we have a con man William Craig promoting the work of another con man. . .LOL. .I laugh in heavenly tongues. . .

Logicboy03: Which philosophers? This is the hypocrisy and foolishness of the theist


Hypocrisy

Dinesh D'souza and William craig have been caught numerous times making fallacious statements- especially Dinesh D'souza with outright lies for religion. One example was where Dinesh claimed that religious people are more likely to be charitable while citing a debunked study- he was corrected live by a member of the audience.

These people are among the most popular christian apologists in the world. Has Anony Ever addressed their numerous fallacies? No. Al he can do is is misrepresent Dawkins well explained thinking on religion.

I am an atheist and I have admiited to Anony's face that Dawkins is a better lecturer than debater. Still, Dawkins makes some excellent points. I have also explained to Anony's face that Sam Harris (another atheist debater) didnt directly address William Craigs points in the debate (this is due to Sam Harris points generally are the opposite of Craig's as a rebuttal)


Foolishness
Dawkins makes clear arguments on religion. Very lucid. It is one thing to say that he is wrong on religion but to claim that his religious arguments are foolish is of the highest arrogance of a religious theist.

Dawkins does not use threats or condemn people to hell to make his points. He didnt cite false statistics like Dinesh D'souza. He didnt run away from atheism like how William Craig ran away from defending his bible God on morality.


Dawkins advanced an argument that all arguments leading to God are false because God by nature is impossible. The logic behind it is very clear. As a scientist, what can not be observed or measured or contradicts known scientific laws are not going to be believed in. How are you going to make an argument for something that has no evidence and contradicts known scientific knowledge?

Dinesh D'souza is a right wing nut job that makes a living off telling lies(His latest movie about Obama). . .William Craig is just a smooth dubious liar that actually stands for nothing, if saying parts of the bible are not true will make him win debates he will say it(he has said similar ridiculous things in the past). . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]About the historicicity of Christ? Are you sure you really watched that video?[/quote]Sorry, got you wrong. . .I was referring to his account of things(Visions, encounter with Jesus etc). Paul actually does not say much about the earthly Jesus. Just very few references here and there which to me are sometimes confusing. . .But any way I am not one of those that believe that the Jesus character never lived. . .I believe that there was a person behind the legend that as there was a person behind the Mohammed legend. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]To which Bart answers; "why would Paul lie?"[/quote]To promote his agenda and introduce his own new religion he wants others to follow. . Why will Mohammed the founder of islam lie?. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZTCK8ZluEc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS4PW35-Y00

[quote author=Mr_Anony]which of the infidel guy's points are valid if I may ask? and why are they valid? Please cite the times in the video as well. Thanks[/quote]That Paul could be lying in his accounts and that not all his letter were written by him. . .

Deep Sight: Don't worry. You are your cells. They are the ones with motivations and thoughts. Enjoy.

What do you expect when you look at something that is breaking away?. . .You expect it to be intact?. . .Some thing has gone away?. . .LOL!

[quote author=Mr_Anony]The point was not whether they agreed in the end or not of course both are entitled to their opinions. The point was about their methods of skepticism.[/quote]The infidel guy has some valid points. . . .If we are to go by Ehrman's approach then we must also believe that Mohammed existed exactly as the prophet of allah and the hadiths are historical documents or believe everything about buddah. . .I am closer to Ehrman than the infidel guy though. But to me some of his points are valid. . .

Deep Sight: Now the very fact that the soul was there, and then at death is not there, is enough simple reason to see that something has departed from that body. This is so simple that I don't know why it has to be debated.

The body is made up of billions of living cells. . .when they die off begin to rot away what do you expect?. . .So soul is the countless living cells or what?

Deep Sight: Let us not fall into error. You do not have a soul. You are the soul. (In saying this, as we are at such an elementary stage of conditional consensus only, I will for now make no distinction between soul and spirit).

You are in fact that soul, not that you have one. This is why you exercise control over your brain. This is why you take decisions such as deciding to stand up now and take a few steps towards the door. This is a decision that you make, and which is processed through, and implemented by your brain.

Control over my brain?. . .How can I control my brain to make my heart beat faster, since I control my brain?. . .How can I control my brain and make it remember lost memories?. . .Why do some drugs that affect my brain make me lose the ability to be able to control my thoughts and follow ONLY what those drugs want me to do?. . .Drugs that affect the brain can be made to give your experiences that you can't control. Why is that so, if there is this immaterial soul that controls everything. . .So far what has been known and empirically verified, is that all thoughts are generated and regulated by the brain. If you can bring your own empirical evidence of the soul controlling, anything then I might take you seriously. . .I don't have time for philosophical platitudes that have no evidence to back them up. . .

It is not a decision that the brain just by itself conjures for its own purposes to satisfy itself. This is the only way to sensibly regard your proprietary control of your brain. Because it shows that your brain is a tool, an organ, which enables you to apprehend and process physical reality.

Firstly, The brain is made up of cells called neurons. These cells have nerve endings called synapses and dendrites. Nerve endings release chemical and electrical stimuli to communicate with each other. This brain communication forms neuro-pathways in the brain and is the basis for how the brain works. This is the basis of how it works and controls everything. . .There are very complex communication between living cells in the brain. . .And it forms the basis for everything. . .If you know anything about how the brain functions you will not be asking upside down questions like the brain thinking for its self. .

As such, your question is upside down. The soul is not serving a function for the body. The body is serving functions for you - the soul. The body is enabling you to live, dwell in, apprehend and process the physical realm.

Simple.

I like how you use abstract language to push things into the realm of the unknown. . .Body serving function for the soul?. . .If you have no evidence to support what you are saying, revert to question begging. . .The people that came up with this hypothesis of yours actually thought the soul lives in the heart and thought the heart controls thoughts, reasoning etc. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Actually this video relates more to the Christ myth crew of namely plaetton and ryhmz amongst others. What made me laugh about the infidel guy is how much he wanted it to not be true that Jesus existed even going to the point of trying to suggest that Paul could be lying or that his scribe (if Paul had one) could be lying against him.[/quote]Actually Ehrman in the end agrees with the infidel guy because according to Ehrman the Jesus's portrayed in the gospels is a fictional character since the gospels are just an embellished accounts of a man that once lived. . .He just believes there was a man behind the legend written in the gospels. . .

Deep Sight: Well if you, as usual, completely ignore the points I made about the proprietary nature of your description of your brain, and the several other simple and short points I made, I guess there is nothing more I can say, Sir logicboy, R.E.R. Do think on it though. You make the brain a self-centred independent being by itself with its own motivations. Do think on it.

Enough has been said to show you the fallacies in your line of thinking.

OK, lets agree with you that I have a soul. . ..What is the function of the soul in the human body. .What does it do?. . .How can it be shown that it is the soul that does it?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]And how is your definition of thought - non-physical thing that comes from a brain - not equally nothing?[/quote]I have a brain, with out it I can not even think, it controls generates and controls my thoughts, how is that nothing. . .OK now go and head and make some positive arguments for the soul. . .How does the soul make me think or reason. . .Explain to me how the immaterial soul control my material brain and lead me to think. . .Why does the immaterial soul need a material brain?. . .

Not me but you

really?. . .

The bolded is precisely what the question is about. How come the same "repeatable" experiment with the same stimulus results in multiple varied meanings? If it was purely scientific, the same process should only be able to end in the same result shouldn't it?

You said I should provide scientific evidence to show that thoughts are chemical reactions in the brain which I did . .The process is the same for every body with a normal functioning brain. . .Again, how does my soul control my brain?. . .If I think of the word mazaje. . .How does the soul initiate the thought?. . .Can you explain it to me the way I explained how the brain does it?. . .Pls explain the stages involved and how the soul initiate thoughts and controls the brain. . .

Who is the "you" that is controlling thoughts?

The brain. . .But lets agree that I have a soul. . .How does my soul control my thoughts, what are the process involved?. . .If the soul is immaterial and controls my thoughts then why do material drugs affect it?. . .

Without self awareness, there is no "you" there is only an "it".

OK, How can I know that my soul is the me, you said the soul is the immaterial person, so what positive evidence can you show me that there is an immaterial person in me. . .What exactly does this immaterial person make me do and what can it do on its own so that I will know that it exist on its own regardless of other things. . .

Your brain creates thoughts? care to tell us how a physical brain creates non-physical thought?

I have already done that. . .I am now waiting for you to make a positive case for the soul and explain to me how its creates or initiates thoughts. . .Why does it even require a brain and why does brain damage affect something that is immaterial?. . .Why do material drugs affect something that is immaterial?. . .How does the soul creates thoughts, how does it control the brain?. . .How does the immaterial affect the material?. . .

This isn't much different from saying that the soul exists through a physical body

What evidence is there to show that the soul exist in the first place?. . .How do you know that you have a soul?. . .How can I know that I have one. . .What differentiates the soul from the brain. . .What is the function of the soul in the body?. . .

How come a physical brain according to you controls non-physical thought? why the double standard?

I have already told you that thoughts are not non physical because you can not think about non physical things. . .What is the function of the soul in the human body. .What does it do?. . .And how can it be shown that it is the soul that does it?. . .

Deep Sight: My friend, I have not participated in this thread until this page as you know. I am not here to argur with you about the soul's existence. I simply point out to you that every single word and sentence you yourself and others have used, shows clearly and evidently that the brain is an organ being used by a being. That being is what I understand the soul to be. You have repeatedly used the words - "My brain" - - - Whose brain please? That in itself is a proprietary phrase. It indicates ownership, just as when you say "my car". This means that you recognize that you are a being that owns a brain. You also said that "we use" the brain. This indicates use. If you use something, then you do stand apart from it as it's principal. This matter is glaringly simple.

How can I know that I have a soul that is independent of my brain? What exactly does the soul do in my body?

Deep Sight: Lol. As though the brain is not also an organ in same body.

Abeg.

So, it controls all other organs. . .Controls thoughts, hormone secretion, everything. . .What exactlt does the soul do and control on its own? How can I know that I have a soul that exist independently of my brain?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I wonder how long it will take you to understand that it is simply an irrational request to ask for the physical properties of a non-physical entity[/quote]Only that there is NO non physical entity that is responsible for anything in the human body, your soul theory remains a myth. . .From your defination of the soul you have already defined it as NOTHING. . .Non physical thing that lives in a body?. . .You have just said the soul is nothing. . .

I did not say this. I wonder when you will stop repeating this strawman.

So why are you fixated on it?. . .

Please where is you scientific evidence that proves that thoughts are caused by chemical these reactions and how exactly did it arrive a non-physical results from physical actions?

I gave you and example before. . .When I read the words mazaje, for example, the photons associated with the patterns of the letters hit my retina, and their energy triggers an electrical signal in the light-detecting cells there. That electrical signal propagates like a wave along the long threads called axons that are part of the connections between neurons. When the signal reaches the end of an axon, it causes the release of chemical neurotransmitters into the synapse, a chemical junction between the axon tip and target neurons. A target neuron responds with its own electrical signal, which, in turn, spreads to other neurons. Within a few hundred milliseconds, the signal has spread to billions of neurons in several dozen interconnected areas of my brain and I have perceived the words mazaje. That's a summary of how it functions, but its more complicated than that. The fact that I am then able to convert the perception of these shapes into symbols, language, and meaning is a whole other story and a good indication of the complexity of neuroscience.

Then why is it so hard for you to tell us how to create the thought "mazaje" and have us each recreate it in our homes? Besides I hope you know that by saying this you are saying that humans do not have subjective thought.

Because we can not create brain cells. . .

In other words you have no freewill and can't choose what you think. Your brain does the thinking by itself?

Can you control what your brain thinks or is your brain autonomous?

You can control your thoughts sometimes and you can not be able to control your thoughts sometimes, if you take some drugs you lose your ability to control your thoughts. . .

Lol, I would only accept that sel-awareness was merely a function of the brain if you could show me a human being alive but with brain damage such that he/she was effectively a robot.

Self awareness is a function of the brain because you will not be self aware without a brain or if the part of your brain that is responsible for consciousness is damaged. . .

In a similar way, telling me that a physical brain creates non-physical thoughts is like telling me that there is non-physical liquid inside a bottle of coke that causes the coke to foam when you shake it.

So soul creates non physical thoughts, eh?. . .How does the soul creates thoughts? pls show me how the soul creates thoughts. . .

You cannot hold a naturalist worldview where nothing is non-physical and then deny the existence of a non-physical soul because it can't be explained in physical terms while accepting non-physical thoughts despite the fact that you equally can't physically explain them. You can't eat your cake and have it.

Thoughts are not entirely non physical because you can only think about, events, symbols, images etc. . .You can not think about non physical things. . .So because thoughts are non physical means soul, right?. . .You claim that there is this elusive non physical part of the body that controls the body, this is actually not true because a non physical things can not control physical things. . .When we study the body every thing that controls it is physical. . .The soul has no role and does not exist any where only in arguments but not in reality. . .

Deep Sight: The bold word above.

Without it, WHO can do nothing.

Whoare you referring to?

Your body. . . .

Whose heart beat?

Does the brain have a heart?

Whose heart beat is it controlling?

The body. . The brain controls the body. . .

Tell me one thing the soul control on its own. . .Thoughts, heart beat, muscular contraction, growth hormones. . .Name one thing the soul does. . .

Deep Sight: Indeed the little phrase - "your brain", ends the discussion.

Whose brain? The brain's brain?

The little phrase, I love you will all my heart says that love is felt in the heart. . .The brain is EVERYTHING. . .It is the human being. . .

Deep Sight: And what is the voice in your head? Your thoughts, which u hear in your inner ear and which no one else hears? Is there another ear that the brain has inside itself that it uses to hear your thoughts? To whom does it speak to? To the little brain back to it self? Or to a being?

It speaks to itself. . .The brain is EVERYTHING, without it you can do NOTHING. . . .Show that the soul exist independent of the brain pls. . .Enough of all these baseless and meaningless talk that can not be supported by any evidence. . . . .

Deep Sight: Do you realize that your position renders the brain as an independent self conscious creature which is controlling a mass around it called a man?

Yes, the brain controls everything. ..It controls your heart beat, growth, kidneys, thoughts, reasoning, EVERYTHING. . .Without it you can not even think or reason. . .What does the elusive soul do on its own?. . .Demonstrate what the elusive soul can do on its own. . .

Bart Ehrman. . . .This was the man that first made me understand the how the bible came about historically. I became a full atheist after reading some of his books and after watching him debate some christian scholars and apologist. . .

davidylan: What is the difference? Atheists, evolutionists... you all do the same thing all the time. The problem is that you attempt to replace religious "myth" with secular "myth". I dont know but perhaps that makes sense in your own alternate universe.

I ask again... have you seen the black hole before? Perhaps it doesnt exist?

Firstly, a lot of evolutionist are actually theists. . .Secondly, I haven't done much studies on the black hole to come to a conclusion. It might or might not exist. Thirdly if I do a study on black holes I am very sure that there will be more evidence for it than for the elusive soul. . .

Logicboy03: Patience is a virtue. I pray to God to grant me Majaze's patience but alas, God doesnt exist.


I just cant take this BS. The theists here have done nothing but make nonsense abstract analogies to defend their sould theory.


No evidence. No logical argument.


The soul has no function, no use, no space in the human body. How then can it exist?

The problem with them is they always push things to the relm of the UNKNOWN. . .Keep pushing things to the relm of them unknown and insist that they are known. . .How and why they do this is just beyond me. . .

davidylan: I have said times without number... to those who parrot the "brain generates the thoughts" idea that they tell us exactly why we cannot engineer the brain to have a specific thought.

This matter is actually quite simple once you are objective enough to think outside the box of rigid ideology (yup... same goes for our atheists who always love to boast about how open minded they are). The brain is merely the window of the soul to a physical world it cannot directly interact with. The rest is easy from then on...

By your ridiculous and abstract definition you are just saying that the soul is NOTHING. . .Of what use use is the soul if it can not intereact with the physical world?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]This can be summarized as "I think it is absurd therefore it is absurd". You haven't shown anything that is morally wrong with it.[/quote]If someone slaps you and you turn the other cheek, he will slap you again and take you for a weakling. . .If a person takes you car and you give him your car, you will end up with nothing as long as people realize that is how you operate people will continue to take your belongings and leave you with nothing. . .If I come and take what belongs to you, tell me why you will call the police on me or fight back instead of giving me another belonging of yours. . .

Good you brought that up. So is divorce only acceptable in cases of fornication and life-threatening physical abuse?

Nope. . .Example if you marry an unrepeantant criminal or if a person lied to you about himself and you later realized that he/she is not who he/she claimed to be you can divorce such a person. . .

I don't think it is a threat to a drowning man when you say to him "If you don't get into this life boat you will die"

Drowing?. . .Jesus was not talking to drowning men. . To the people he was talking to he was the one that was drowning. . .Telling people to believe your stories or suffer in fire is NOT something many people will consider a good thing. . .Threating people because they do not accpet your stories is not considered as a good thing to me and many others. . .

As usual you had to cap it up by quoting Christ out of context in order to make a failed point. Every Christian knows that following Christ and doing good like Him will automatically bring one at loggerheads with the world. Isn't it interesting how the verse you are quoting comes right after His command to the disciples to go out preach the gospel and heal the sick. Then he tells them not to be afraid of persecutions and not to fear for their lives? Of course you missed all that in your dishonesty.

Firstly there is NO good deed that he has done that others have not done. . .But the people did not claim to set people against each other. . .

Lol, essentially what you've just said here is that "Good" isn't real but it depends only on what a person chooses to see as good. You have successfully cut of the branch you were sitting on because now we can also say that all you have uttered is merely your subjective opinion of what good is and therefore you really have no case.

You said that any atheit that talks about being good should follow Jesus because he was all good. . .I am just telling you that what you consider as good acts of Jesus is considered as bad acts by many others. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]This is pretty silly. I defined the soul as a non-physical person who that operates through a physical body. You reject this and ask me provide for you a physical location of a non-physical being. A very irrational question indeed.[/quote]This is false because there is nothing like that that exist in the human body. Where is your evidence for this elusive construct?. . .What does trhe soul do on its own? make you think, reason, control your motor fuctions?. . .The brain does all these things. . .From your definition the soul is nothing. . .If your hypothesis is true the should should have been detected long ago because we have the technology to detect it. . .Your soul hypothesis remains a basless construct. . .

You on the other hand agree that thoughts are non-physical functions of a physical brain. I am sure you can't show me a physical thought because they are by definition non-physical. So why the double standard?

So thoughts equates to the soul because thoughts are non physical?. . .

The next thing is that you claim that physical chemical reactions in the brain create non-physical thoughts. You haven't shown how.

Pls where is your scientific evidence that disputes the fact that thoughts come about as a result of complex chemical reactions in the brain?. . .Scientific fact that disputes this and show that thoughts are as a result of the soul pls. . .

These physical chemical reactions create subjective thoughts that are not repeatable if all the same stimuli are provided.....yet you claim that it is a scientific fact.

Non repeatable?. . .What do you mean by that. . .The human thought process are mostly the same?. . .

I have shown that you can decide what your brain thinks in the same way that you can decide where your legs go there fore your brain is subject to you. You have said that it is your brain that controls itself and everything about you yet there are involuntary actions that your brain cannot control about you. Contradiction

You have shown no such thing. . .You have NOT shown that the thought process is not initiated by the brain, you have only said so with out providing any evidence. . .I said the thought process is all initiated and carried out by the brain as such any thing that offsets the balance of the brain affects the way you think. . .I gave you examples of drugs that reduce dopamine transporter sites in the terminal buttons of neurons in the brain alter your thoughts completely when ingested. If there is this outside immaterial and elusive soul, how come material drugs affect it and makes it do things against its wish?. . .

You have sited brain injuries as causes of a change in personality and behaviour to which I have replied that the brain is a tool for thinking in the same way the mouth is the tool for talking and you will think differently and talk differently if the two sustained any damage.

The brain is not a tool for thinking because it generates the thoughts. . .So brain injuries affect the immaterial soul and makes the immaterial soul to forget everything or act in a very different way?. . . .I presently have an injury(a cut) in my mouth as a result of a domestic accident but I still talk normally. . .If I have the same cut on the part of my brain that is responsible for thought, I doubt if I will be able to type what amn typing here. . .It is not just brain injuries alone. . .Drugs and other things that affect the brain can make you do only what the drugs want you to do. . .If there is this immaterial soul that initiates thoughts I wonder how material drugs will affect it. . .

I have shown you that interestingly, there is no amount of brain damage that can make a person not know that he is a person distinct from a chair. or take a persons will or ability to make choices or ability to desire away.

That is because self awareness is a function of the brain. . .Self awareness is the first function of the brain when it comes to consiousness. . .Or is the soul now responsible for self awareness?. . .Can you show how?. . .

You have not been able to show how the physical creates the non-physical but yet you ask me the physical location of a non-physical entity. My friend you are being very IRRATIONAL.

The brain which is pysical creates non physical thoughts. You are talking about something that lacks complete evidence and you want me to accpet just because you keep repeating it?. . .From your own difinition of the soul, it shows that the soul is NOTHING. . .You have defined it as a nothing. . . A non-physical person that operates through a physical body?. . .What is that?. . .You have just described nothing. . .This is just like me saying a non physical bottle that operates inside a bottle. . .Any body that is serious will not even attend to me. . .

davidylan: well that is your opinion. I could just as well say that unless i see your brain, there is no proof that it exists. See... that sounds preposterous right? Thats exactly the way you sound to me when you go claiming that claims of a soul are baseless... YOU DONT KNOW does not mean it doesnt exist. That unfortunately seems to be the train of thought around here...

Of course he cannot provide evidence of the spiritual... that is impossible. You cant provide evidence for the black hole either... but of course you firmly believe it exists no?

I repeat, everything can be shown to be from the brain. . .You are yet to show what the soul does on its own. . .I can show you many things the brain does on its own. . .Can you show me one single thing the elusive soul does on its own. . .So far the only thing you have shown is that the elusive soul is actually nothing. . .

davidylan: No. I didnt ask for images of your brain. I asked that you show me your brain... a picture can be faked.

See the idea was much more rhetorical to show that some questions... while making logical sense on the face of it... really are a mask for ignorance and inability to understand simple logic.

You know full well that your question will not get an answer... you ask it purely for arguments sake. Well i could just as well ask you to show me your thoughts... afterall you are the one claiming to have one no?

I can provide evidence to show that the brain exist independent of the head. . .Can he provide evidence to show that the soul exist independent of the brain?. . .Your question is invalid because we KNOW that the brain and the head are two different things. . .What do we know about the soul beside baseless claims and counter claims?. . .

davidylan: the problem with arguments of this nature is that they are made largely from a position of chronic lack of thought.

The question in bold is one example... now imagine if i asked you to show me your brain independent of your head?

I can show you images of my brain inside my head. . .Can anony show us any evidence to show us any evidence that the soul exist on its own independent of the brain?. . .He says there is a soul that exist independent of the brain, he is the one making the claim, all we need is just a little evidence to back that claim up. . .

2good: Food for thought.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RXmkftK0Sw

This video says it ALL. . .