₦airaland Forum

tbaba1234: The serious flaws in the Universal message theory

Evidence 3

While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait there for the promise of the Father. "This," he said, "is what you have heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now...But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. ( Acts 1:4-5,8-9)

Flaw 3 has some of the same defects above.

I. As in evidence 2 (1)

Ii. As in evidence 2 (2)

Iii As in evidence 2 (4)


Evidence 4

Evidence 4 takes the cake for me.

Luke 24:50 indicates that the ascension of Jesus was on Easter Sunday, which would indicate that Jesus was not present to have made the speeches recorded in Matthew 28:16-20 (the first example above) and Acts 1:7-8 (the third example above) both of which were previously quoted verbatim. However, as the author of Luke is held to have also been the author of Acts, one is immediately struck by a major discrepancy and inconsistency. In Luke, the ascension is said to have been on Easter Sunday." However, in Acts, the very same writer maintains that the ascension was 40 days after Easter Sunday Acts 1:3. 53. Thus , if the Lukan narrative were accepted, the passages from Matthew and from Acts must be considered baseless and faulty. However, if the passages from Matthew and Acts were accepted, the Lukan narrative would have to be rejected.

It seems the Quran and Jesus (peace be upon him) agree on this point. Similar arguments can be brought for the crucifixion, the so called 'prophesies' in mathew about Jesus in the old testament. etc.

I conclude. There is only one God so either way we have the same God.

However, the Christian depiction of God is based primarily on pauline traditions and far removed from Jesus.

Hi tbaba,going through ur long text will mean giving you answers dat i have given you long time ago.But what i can pick from all you have written is the highlighted above and that is where i want us to dwell on or start from.
If you say either way the muslims and the christians have the same God,meaning that you have studied ur quran,digested it and believed it.I'm very sure u ahv not seen God before or heard from him or even mohammed saving for the quran you read.And I as a christian,studied the bible and hold on firm to the words of Christ.Pls reconcile the following quoted words of Jesus HIMSELF with all u have been saying.Abeg no tell me say my bible no complete o ! Or say them don change becos i no tell you say dem change ur quran o.
Oya start with the below:
''I and the Father is one''-John 10:30
"‘We are going up to Jerusalem’, he said, ‘and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles, who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise’."—Mark 10:33,34
"Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."—John 17:5
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"—John 11:25,26
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well."—John 14:6
"Whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall loose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day."—John 6:37-39
"I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."
—John 16:28
"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."
"Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."—John 14:9-11
"They all asked, ‘Are you then the Son of God?’ He replied,‘You are right in saying I am’."—Luke 22:70
"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."—John 8:36
"I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!"—John 8:58
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you."—John 15:9
"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these’, replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’."—John 10:31-33
"When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said,‘Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing’."—Luke 23:33,34
"I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (hell)."Revelation 1:17,18
"This is what is written (in the Law): The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day; and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."—Luke 24:46,47
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age."—Matthew 28:18-20
"The Father judges no-one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him. I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice."—John 5:21-28
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in ...—Revelation 3:20..."
"You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

—John 8:23,24
God help us all

JesusisLord85: Key word here is justified. The pharisees taught that you must be circumcised and obey the oral and written torah BEFORE becoming a proselyte. They put a yoke on people, Christ even spoke of this:

Matthew 23:15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

verse 4 "For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers"

Paul was NOT teaching that the walking in the commandments means youa are cut off from grace. Furthermore, if that is your interpretation of Galatians, then it directly contradicts what you said earlier about keeping the commandments not being bad. But if makes sense if we understand it to mean those thinking they can gain salvation by their works first.

Hebrews 4:2 my friend, Hebrews 4:2

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Good morning Jesus is Lord85,Bidam and Schidemidemi,trust ur night was awesome !
Concerning our discussion,i think ur reply above goes to show me that you quite understand what i have bein saying concerning works,commandment of the old and the new covenant law of law !
I have made my point and have not seen any other reason to continue to show you what the scripture is saying becoc you 'know' but still see this discussion as an argument that needs to be won by you. Anyways,i know one thing for sure,the scripture from Genesis to revelation is nsync and i thank the Almighty God for the new covenant and that is the reason i'm Christian today who isn't justified by the Law but grace through the love of Christ. There is sin and Christians don't live in sin but can fall into sin ! The Apostle said we should not take the grace for granted by living in sin ! The spirit helps us to do to continue to remain in right standing with God !
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
See below words and the book of James regarding faith and works,i think this will help and also probably be the last from me on this subject:
''The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us and I know Jesus is Lord85 believes this.However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."This goes further to validate what i have earlier said that you don't say u are saved without showing it by ur works ! No doubt you also agreed with me on this.
There is no contradiction with what James said concerning faith and works. Let's look at the context,James chapter 2 that has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law.Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith,but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"(James 2:14).In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith,a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement,a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt.It is empty of life and action.He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is(verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19).Finally,he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions.Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God.Faith does not follow works but works follow faith and it is this living faith that will ultimately bring out the works(Not the old works of the law but the 'law'of the new covenant as will be exhibited by a christian which was made possible by the spirit in him/her.This works(law) are the ones mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23(But the fruit of the Spirit is love,joy,peace,longsuffering,kindness,goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law)
James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not.One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead,"(James 2:20).But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.Ofcourse i know you(Jesus is Lord85) believe also in this one becos u said that isn't what you see as an issue.
Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith.James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith,(faith that does not show the works) not real faith that ultimately brings out the works of righteousness.
In as much as it's a fact that there are so many works of the old law that can be found in the new covenant,like thou shall not kill,does not mean the old law is same as the same as the new 'law'-Love.
The difference now to round up this properly is that the old law was meant for the imperfect man to keep which no man can keep according to James 2:10''For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.''But the new covenant is for Christians to live without struggles becos of the Christ in them who gives them the strength to do !We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us ! What are these things?
They are the fruit of the Spirit which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

God help us

Bidam: Can you then explain this: The hearers of the Law are not justified before the Lord, but the doers of the Law will be justified [Romans 2:13].

If you listen to Jesus'teachings and fail to yield to it for it to wrought HIS word through you,then you will not be able to DO ! To do what? obey the commandment of God,not the old law but the 'law'that is above all 'laws'-Love !This is the new dispensation law that can be fulfilled by man because even Christ wan't us to be perfect in it unlike the old testament or covenant law !
See what Apostle Paul is saying to those who still hold on to the old laws:
''You are severed(cut off) from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.-Gal 5:4
''But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. (Gal 4:4-5 ESV)
Now Bidam,to answer your question above completely,let us see what is the Law that you quoted above as given by Romans 2:13
See below what that law means:
''But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.-Galatians 5:22-23 answers ur Romans 2:13 question. Everything still goes back to how do we fulfil this new covenant law-(Love made possible by Grace)? It is not by obeying the old covenant law But by accepting Jesus as our lord and personal savior and allowing the holy spirit to help us obey Jesus'commandment which can be made possible by we yielding to the spirit for us to exhibit these fruits of the spirit.

Will join again by tomorow.

God help us

JesusisLord85: The law said stone, that was the punishment. Christ took the punishment for us. Surely you understand that.
Regarding divorce. Remember what Christ said in Mark 10:

Mark 10:2 "And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. 3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

Notice what he says in Matthew 9:

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

I guess you missed Matthew 9. What you ought to notice is the Pharisees know the written Torah very well, as well as their own oral traditions. They were trying to catch Jesus out, they wanted him t contradict Torah, for then they would have a reason to arrest him. They couldn't. Why? Because Christ taught the true Torah.

Matthew 15:2 "Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying,

Hope that helps

Going to the highlighted first,Christ never asked the disciples to divorce their wives if they commit adultery or are caught in the act as you have highlighted up above.If you think otherwise,please show me where it is written in the old covenant that when our wives commit adultery that she should be divorced. What was given as punishment for adultery is stoning to death and not divorce please.It's very very wrong to interpret 'except for fornication' to mean that Christ admonishes us to divorce our wives when they are caught in adulterous act. If the 'true Torah' is to forgive ur wife if she is caught in adultery and not divorce her,stone her or give her a certificate of divorcement like Moses commanded,then Christ taught 'the true Torah' ! Christ said something very very different from what they already know concerning marriage which is love and divorce which had no place in the heart of God-Malachi 2:16A''"For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel..''
Concerning commandment and traditions,ofcourse Christ scolded the pharisees for what they hav done and still doing to the 'old law'given to them by placing it(law) as second class ! Remember that the 'law'(old covenant) isn't for us as Christians today.

God help us

By the time we love God,we will love our fellow humans and no man there claim HE/SHE loves God without loving his fellow human ! Our love for God will activate the person of HIS son in us with the help of the holy spirit ! To try to keep the laws can not make any man perfect but grace sure does but to accept HIS son in us allowing HIM to work it out through us is what makes us a Christian !
Christianity isn't our ability but our response to HIS(Jesus)ability !

God help us

JesusisLord85: So what is this new covenant. Remember, it was prophesied about in Jeremiah. It said eh would take the same commandments and put in hearts of men. So tell me, what are the 'new' commandments, if any

Mathew 7:12''We are to "Owe no man anything, but to love one another: For he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled the Law!
The new covenant is the covenant of Love bein made possible unto us by God through the shedding of the blood of HIS son fought always and even now by the devil !
The Ten Commandments are no longer the law for the followers of Jesus! God only has one Law now for Christians: The Law of Jesus, the Law of Love, "to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself!" (Matthew 22:36-39) If you do these,you will not have to bother on the rest of the old laws for this covenant of Love (grace)overshadows the rest!

God help us

JesusisLord85: But you just said if you love him you keep his commandments. The commandments of God, his word, is the Torah aka the law. The law is dead and burried? Jesus begs to differ:

Matthew 5:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I still see heaven and eart bro.

Jesus came to show us how it is and how we have bein doing it wrong as men who are imperfect !One of the 'laws'(torah) said,stone her to death and Jesus said No,show mercy ! Another said give her a certificate of divorce and Jesus said,No it was not so from the begining and dnt send her away for any reason NOT EVEN FOR THE SAKE OF ADUTERY ! And so many others.
what do you make out of the above ?
I'm not quoting anything yet cos i'm working and doing this at the same time !

God help us

JesusisLord85: Your're really preaching to the choir. Why are you talking as if I said something contrary. So tha settles it, the comadnments are not done away with.

Gracias

Please let me know,which commandment are we talking about here ?If for the old covenant,they are dead and buried ! We have a new covenant today ! That of love bein made available by GRACE as a result of the shedding of blood on the cross !

God help us

JesusisLord85: Stop shouting God help us, we are learned men.
I don't know why you are shouting, I don't disagree with you. You believe. Your works THEN show.
Is this not shown in council of jerusalem.
The gentiles accepted Christ by faith. They were given 4 starter laws to oey immediately, as they would learn the res as they went along. The pharisees wanted them to follow the oral taditions and written torah, all of it FIRST, and be circumcised as a conversion ritual. But Christ had already accepted them through their faith. A[b]s they learn the rest of the law, they would obviously learn to keep it.[/b] Or what is the point of them learning it.

We don't learn to keep the law ! Each time you talk about the law and learning to keep it,it means you are drawing us back! At HIS comming and ultimate death on the cross,there is nothing more to be learned concerning the law ! The law of the old covenant is dead and burried to HIM/HER who is in Christ Jesus ! The only 'law'left now we are to attain perfection in is the law of Grace !
Please don't mind the below,it wasn't for any one but to God to grant me help in all i do !
God help us

JesusisLord85: Why shoot me, I am quoting scripture.
I agree with what you just said. You say you have faith in Christ, and love God, why not then obey his comandments? Is that not what John said in 1 John 2:4

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

If you know God(having faith in HIM)You don't have choice but to keep HIS commandment. It is no longer you doing but HE who is in you helping you to do !Each time Jesus or His disciples remind us of Keeping the commandment of God it is like asking us to have faith ! If you know HIM,YOU MUST KEEP HIS COMMANDMENT ! Each time you try or struggle to keep HIS commandment,what you need then will be faith that will help you and not the trying to keep His commandment will give you faith !
Faith commeth only by hearing and hearing and hearing the word of God ! And not trying and trying to keep or do HIS will!

God help us

IT IS NEVER BY FAITH AND WORKS BUT BY FAITH ALONE THAT WILL ULTIMATELY BRING OUT THE WORKS !

God help us

JesusisLord85: And yet, Moses walked in the Lord's commandments. But you say mixing faith and works is nullifying the work of the cross.

Hebwers 4:2 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

You don't mix faith WITH works ! But Faith can not stand without works ! If u claim you have faith and we don't see ur works,you are a lier and if we see ur works we don't say ur works most definitely birthed ur faith !If you say you have faith people must know by ur works and not becos of your works we see your faith but it is ur faith that brought out the works! It is like one who takes a dive into a pool coming out without bein wet,this is not possible.If you take a dive,you must be wet and same with if you have faith we must see the works. The works never gave birth to the faith BUT FAITH BORE THE WORKS !

GOD HELP US

Bidam: Good morning to you too. I very much agree that we are in a new and better covenant,but i want to point out some mistakes you guys are making which most grace teachers are guilty of .The grace of God is found throughout the Old Testament if you bother to research it in the Hebrew text. In Hebrew different words were used for the term we call grace. Several examples of the grace of God in the Old Testament are found in such places as Deuteronomy 7:9; Nehemiah 1:5; 9:32; Daniel 9:4 and II Chronicles 6:14 just to name a few.

If you research the word Paul used for grace, you will see that the concept is rooted in the Hebrew word hesed which is often translated grace, mercy, or loving kindness., God's grace is used in the biblical text three ways. First, in creation, second, in His covenants, and third, in forgiveness God extended mercy and grace to all who repented.Thanks

I agree with the highlighted but dnt forget that in the old dispensation even with the use of grace,God also gave instant punishment most times to those who failed to DO ! I still strongly believe that the old dispensation was all about we trying to Do to find God But the new covenant is God through HIS son trying to reach us not becos of we are doing but becos of HE want's to do for us !

God help us

Exodus 33:17''And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name''

Even Moses the father of Laws both his and that of the old covenant,also FOUND GRACE with God !

God help us

[quote author=*Kails*]There is a creator.
What ever you want to call him/her is your prerogative.[/quote]Since there is a creator,i think it will be 'wise'we don't attribute HIS features to some other bein becos this might cost us our entrance into the heavenlies !Don't you think so ?

God help us

If i say Muslims and Christians serve the same God or better still,serve same God but understand HIS modus operandi differently,does that make a muslim Christian ?
I think what qualifies one to be called a christian is that he/she believes that Christ the son of God came,died on the cross for the sins of the world,resurrected after 3 days and was ascended into heaven and start to live the life of Christ by the help of the holy spirit.
And I also think a muslim believe that Christ is not the son of God,HE is not the messiah as HE claimed hence never died for the sins of any one,did not resurrect from the dead since HE didn't die in the first place but will return to the earth to...... !
If the two have such a vast contrasting views of The lord Jesus Christ,how then are we to believe they serve the same God,where the bible God said Jesus is HIS only begotten son and the quran God said HE has no son ?

Your opinion please and no insults !

God help us

Good morning Jesus is Lord85,Schidemidemi and bidam ! How was your nights ? Hope splendid !
I think we should go ahead from where we stopped the last time. The Law of Grace invalidates the old laws of the old dispensation.

God help us

[quote author=m.k.o2005]I can see clearly that Jesus is lord does not understand Schdemidemi at all ! @Bidam,you will never agree with Schdemidemi i know becos i have joined in ur discussions before ! To throw a little light,Christ came with a different gospel(clearer understanding); THE GOSPEL OF GRACE and this is why we are Christians and not Judaists ! Little wonder some of us still hold very firm the 'old Laws !
Will rejoin morow !

God bless us[/quote]

JesusisLord85: Christ freed people from "Judaism"? Just listen to yourself.
Yahweh gave commandments, and he did away with them because imperfect humans could not keep them. That is what you are saying. So he is reducing his standards because of you. This soudns like what some false churches do to gain converts.
"come as you are, remain as you are"

I can see clearly that Jesus is lord does not understand Schdemidemi at all ! @Bidam,you will never agree with Schdemidemi i know becos i have joined in ur discussions before ! To throw a little light,God came with a different gospel; THE GOSPEL OF GRACE and this is why we are Christians and not Judaist ! Littel wonder some of us still hold very firm the 'old Laws !
Will rejoin morow !

God bless us

JesusisLord85: You have asked me loads of questions since I joined. In fact, you never spew your thoughts, you always start with "what does {insert verse} eman to you".
I give you basic scriptures that need no interpretation and you are there with your tail between your legs. Mental slave.

This is sure a religious statement and not befitting for a Christian !

God help us

JesusisLord85: You know I don't ask questions that I reckon I know the answers to already, like you do. So I must ask you concerning the bolded, please explain this metaphor so I might be enlightened

Schdemidemi knows what he is saying but may be does not know how to put it through to you folks !

God help us

frosbel: "Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? " - John 10:36b

- Jesus

Please frosbel,see below reason Jesus wanted to be linched;
''but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’." -John 10:33 And not becos HE claimed to be God's son ! See John 10:30 Where He said HE and the father are inseparable !''I and My Father are one ''

God help us

frosbel: "Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? " - John 10:36b

- Jesus

So even you frosbel believe that Jesus is God's son !

God help us

Jesus' claim to be divine was as upsetting to the Jews as it is to many people today:

"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these’, replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’."

—John 10:31-33

God help us

Jesus' claim to be divine was as upsetting to the Jews as it is to many people today:

"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these’, replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’."

—John 10:31-33

God help us

Jesus' claim to be divine was as upsetting to the Jews as it is to many people today:

"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these’, replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’."

—John 10:31-33

God help us

raeez: So if the protestants say catholics are not christians that's 2 billion out of the population of the world :s

Majority may also be wrong but the bible says 'only one with God is majority' !
There are Christians amongs Catholics as i want to believe strongly that not all protestants are Christians !

God help us all

peppy luv: My brother Stop decieving ur self,every christian denomination believes in the trinity and that does not mean that Jesus is God! Thou d Anglicans don't deny that they beliv in the trinity.
U all steal our doctrines and try to make it look different from the catholc way! I cudnt stop laughing when an anglican frnd said the sign of the crosss is not 'a catholic thing" and this frnd is so anti catholic and says I carry it on my head lol how? becos I can't stop displaying hw proud I am of it on bb?I hate religious arguement evn thou am bein forced to cuz I get provoked. Crazyman a moderator banned me from NYC section simpy becos I said I was proud of NACC(national association of catholic corpers)meanwhl NCCF were praising their own and immediatly I said somtin they attacked me and whl trying to defend myself(without insults!God wil bear me witness,I was banned till feb 15th 2014! So I wudnt say or promote NACC till I finish my service year!Y d hate for catholics
somtyms our xtian brothers say d unimaginable and I keep wondering "y d hate"?we acknowledge d fact that some of our clergies hv made mistakes and gone astray but who are we to judge if God has forgiven them. Are your clergies innocent or is it becos d catholic church is popular and for that notin is hidden. I dnt hv time to start posting crimes commited by other demonination's clergy just to start an un necessary argument here. All orthodox churches(who later produced the protestants) came out from catholic and we all say d creed together which includes beliving in d holy catholic church till date!
I knw them especialy anglicans to take our doctrines and try to make it look diff.eg they dnt belive in d saints but they name their churches after a saint! Point of correction we dnt worship them but we see them as role models for the life they lived. "There is no saint without a past and no sinner without a future"- st Augustine.
This was one of d reasons why a convert(an elderly yoruba man in church of assmuption asokoro and his 2nd reason was becos of my ex parish priest fr George Ehusani whose preaching he watched and followed closely evry sunday on AIT) came back to the church,he said the anglicans "plucked d fruit witout knwing how it was planted" so he came back to the farm to knw more abt d fruit and how its been planted"! A marriage nearly ended when an Anglican Rev askd a bride(who was catholic) do u reject calling d name of d saints in prayers(don't argue this cuz I hear protestants calling on the God of Oyedepo and Abioye and their demi god pastors!),the grl said NO! Do u reject d Rosary? she said "NO!I married my husband cuz of love not religion" meanwhl d church was bearing the name of a saint!! If u dnt acknwledge them(saints)then y bear the name leave it for the catholics that declared them saints. My mum cudnt stop sighing cuz they dnt knw they hv planted a seed of division in that home!if the bride had made up her mind to submissively follow her husband to anglican forever she may not want to do it again!
I dnt want us to start arguing about new converts here cuz evryday silently,those who hv gone from the church come back. Our doors are open for whoever wants to walk in or out,we dnt need customers to pay tithe. D church has enuf!
That aside, ur pastors bless u and end prayers with "in the name of the father, son and holy ghost!" Abeg is that not the trinity or is it becos u dnt do the sign of the cross u now feel its not the trinity u r acknowledging by saying that? Wake up from ur slumber man,u think u knw d bible more than a jnr seminarian not to talk of the Pope! Lol *smh for ur dumbness*
WITHOUT THE CATHOLICS THEIR WILL BE NO BIBLE! A fact that only fools argue, so if u r one come on then
I knw ur next arguement wil be that we worship mary lol don't worry we are ok with that ok. Let it b our headache.
Some of u say u want to save the catholics from hell *lol* u hypocrite! Save ursef 1st! Deliver ursef from ur uncountable lies,fornication,adultery,abortion,injustice, man's inhumanity to man,bribery and corruption, theft,backbiting,hate,gossip,envy,jealousy,anger and so on! Then when u r clean only then will u be worthy of saving 2billion pple from hell!!

Enough of d battle of supremacy btwn christians and muslims after all there are so many world religions. I always told my frnd that if I wasn't a catholic I wud hv been a Buddahist! Yes u heard me.
If u wanna knw y go and do a research about them and u will knw y!not trying to search for negative things after al evry religion has something questionable abt it! They do! Or do u want me to start picking out verse from the bible and koran that will make u ask and wonder if God really said and did all this? Especially in the old testament!
That is y I dnt blame the aetheist (not this fake ones in nairaland that are frustrated but scholars,successful men and women who didnt fast and pray or pay tithe to become who they are!those ones who have studied in and out of that book u think u knw better and with what is happening in this world they keep asking does God really exist)
but I stil beliv in my creator cuz I didn't bring myself into this world.
Religion will not take me to heaven but it guides me. I believe in PEACE(truly from d hrt laying aside all grudges and mistakes like the pope is asking),SERVICE TO GOD AND HUMANITY(not like a pharisee or hypocrite) as my greatest means of salvation!
I really dnt care what anyone's opinion is after reading this. I made my point not trying to argue or start a war of words with anyone. LEAVE CATHOLICS ALONE all u haters!
PEACE! SHALOM!!

NA the holy spirit only fit help Catholics and Christians !
There are two issues to be addressed here,one is foundational and the other is personal or individual !

God help us all

Vado: That same lukewarm attitude and living in denial was what propelled the lose of constantinople (Turkey) and some other parts of Western Europe to the jihadists. Preaching tolerance is cool Mr. Pope but remember not even Christ was economical with the truth at any point in time so i don't get this religion diplomacy these days. How would it have sounded if Christ was reaching out to the pagans during their ritual rites just so as to appear meek like everything is good? More or less like a cosign that they are on the right track, ain't it? So Christ is no longer the Only Way or His gospel has ceased to be about winning lost souls? Jesus was never violent but didn't hold back in calling evil evil and vented His rage when the people in the temple of God went astrayed. I'd have expected the pope to pray for the sinners and hope their hearts get divinely touched so that they can discern between the forces of light and darkness. There's nothing like diplomacy or compromise in spiritual warfare but these people don't just get it or they do but don't wanna make some people feel disgruntled. Smh.

There is no diplomacy with the word of God ! Please see below quotes of Jesus if the modes will allow you to do so !
"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

—John 7:16

His message is eternal and will not be changed:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

—Matthew 24:35

He came into the world (i.e. from outside):

"I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

—John 18:38

He came from heaven, i.e. from God:

"No-one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."

—John 3:13

God was always with Jesus:

"The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."

—John 8:29

Jesus had this one thing in mind, to please and honour his heavenly Father and to complete His task.

"‘My food’, said Jesus,‘is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work’."

—John 4:34

And why we should believe him:

"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?"

—John 8:46

Muslims are sometimes taught that all prophets of God were sinless. That again is a deviation from the facts. Only Jesus is called sinless or holy (Surat 19:19), while we read of the sins of Adam (Surat 7:22-23), Moses (28:15-16), Abraham (26:82), Jonah (37:141-144), David (38:24-25), and also of Muhammad (40:55, 47:19, 48:1-2).

For us to do the work of God includes believing in Jesus:

"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

—John 6:29

To reject Jesus is to reject God.

"He who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

—Luke 10:16

He not only came to bring a message, but to fulfil a task.

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

—Luke 19:10

He came to call sinners to repentance and to rescue them from hell. Those assuming themselves to be good enough to enter God's presence deem themselves not to need Jesus anyway.

"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

—Mark 2:17

To the weary he becomes like a brother. He wants to bring peace to troubled hearts.

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

—Matthew 11:28-30

Water is needed for life. Spiritually speaking Jesus offers "living water" not only to meet our needs, but also to be a fountain to let others taste of it as well.

"If a man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

—John 7:37

"Whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

—John 4:14

To accept Jesus for what he is proves our love for God:

"I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. I have come in my Father's name and you do not accept me, but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him."

—John 5:42-43

(Following the custom of the time, Jesus often spoke of himself in the third person). Here Jesus makes a tremendous claim about himself:

"Whoever believes in him (Jesus) is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light."

—John 3:18-21

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

—John 8:12

"When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no-one who believes in me should stay in darkness."

—John 12:44-46

Jesus often spoke in parables and used allegories. Here he speaks of himself as a gate and a shepherd, and his followers as sheep.

"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

—John 10:10

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

—John 10:11

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep."

—John 10:4

This ‘laying down’ of his life was a voluntary act based on his own authority.

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No-one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again."

—John 10:17

The ‘life in full’ that Jesus came to provide includes the assurance here and now of the life to come:

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no-one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

—John 10:27

To a person whose brother had been in the tomb for three days, and then been raised by Jesus from the dead, he said:

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

—John 11:25,26

Jesus makes it clear that he himself is the only means to eternal salvation:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well."

—John 14:6


Here Jesus is quite specific and to the point:

"If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me."

—John 8:42

"You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

—John 8:23,24

Before his death, Jesus spoke to his closest followers, saying:

"I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

—John 16:28

He urged his followers to believe in his divinity and again substantiated his claim:

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

"Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."

—John 14:9-11

In a recorded prayer Jesus communed with his Father and, referring to his eternal existence:

"Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

—John 17:5

Because Jesus had a human mother, he appeared to be and was a real human person. He, like we, was hungry and tired, felt a need to pray and experienced grief and pain. But because God had inspired and by that affected his birth without a human father, he was divine, could heal, raise the dead, walk on water, forgive sins, still the storm and perform many more reported miracles. He therefore could claim a relationship that may shock us at first:

"They all asked, ‘Are you then the Son of God?’ He replied,‘You are right in saying I am’."

—Luke 22:70

Liberation from fear, including the fear of death, satanic influences and freedom from sin comes from him alone:

"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

—John 8:36

Once Jesus made an astounding remark about himself. Can we understand what he meant? His listeners knew!

"I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!"

—John 8:58

It is important to note that "I am" in Hebrew is the same as "Jahveh", the very name of God! This provoked the Jews to kill him. Here we find an additional explanation. Since God is eternal there is to him no ‘was’ or ‘will be’. He always ‘is’. What he really says here is: ‘Before Abraham was, I was eternally alive!’

Even so he is not aloof up there in highest heaven. He loves you and me! And He wants us to respond to his love!

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you."

—John 15:9

His love is more than just a kind of fondness. He proved his love!

"Greater love has no-one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

—John 15:13

Several times Jesus spoke of his approaching death and the purpose of his dying:

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

—Matthew 20:28

The word ‘ransom’ is seldom used these days. We read occasionally that, for example, kidnappers demand a ransom. This is the price to set a captive free. Jesus paid the price to set us free from the condemnation of sin.

Four times Jesus predicted his death to his close followers. But even to them it made little sense in the beginning:

"‘We are going up to Jerusalem’, he said, ‘and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles, who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise’."

—Mark 10:33,34

Before his death the man Jesus agonized in prayer when he contemplated the terror, pain and suffering of his imminent crucifixion:

"He went away a second time and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done’."

—Matthew 26:42

It was not a godless mob that arrested arrest him. They were the supreme religious authority of the day, and they feared that their religious authority was being threatened by Jesus! At his arrest one of his companions drew a sword wanting to resist and fight. But Jesus said:

"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

—Matthew 26:53,54

To understand the words “fulfilled Scriptures”, we ought to know that the prophets in the Old Testament many hundreds of years before had foretold many of the important events in the life of Jesus. His pre-existence in eternity, his miraculous birth by a virgin and his divinity, his death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead, were recorded. In Jesus they were now being fulfilled.

Jesus' claim to be divine was as upsetting to the Jews as it is to many people today:

"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these’, replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’."

—John 10:31-33

Even at this very crisis situation of his life, Jesus thought not of himself, but of others.

"When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said,‘Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing’."

—Luke 23:33,34

After his resurrection from the dead Jesus joined some of his companions on their way home, but remained unrecognized by them. They were in great sorrow over his death, which they could not fathom. Jesus said to them:

"‘How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?’And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."

—Luke 24:25-27

Again Jesus pointed to the prophecies concerning him in the Old Testament.

Some people have speculated that Jesus did not actually die, but that he was taken down from the cross unconscious and later revived. This was quite impossible, for the soldiers, to make sure he was dead, pierced his chest before he was taken down (John 19:33). What did Jesus have to say to that?

"I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (hell)."

Revelation 1:17,18


Jesus did not come for the Jews only, as some believe. He said:

"This is what is written (in the Law): The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day; and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

—Luke 24:46,47

39 days after his resurrection from the dead Jesus was taken up to heaven before the very eyes of his disciples. His last words to them were:


"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age."

—Matthew 28:18-20

That is why Christian believers have it on their hearts to make him and his message known. When the end of time comes, Jesus will be the judge:

"The Father judges no-one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him. I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice."

—John 5:21-28

If nothing else makes us think and consider - this should! To reject this offer for fear of any kind is simply foolish.

Jesus encourages us to trust him and in what he is doing for us:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

—John 14:1-3

Jesus will come again. This time not to save, but to judge all those who did not accept his offer of pardon and forgiveness. It is therefore so important to be prepared for his coming at any time:

"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

—Luke 12:40

How this is going to happen he told us as well:

"You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

—Mark 14:62

"As the lightning comes from the East and flashes to the West, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

—Matthew 24:27

Jesus is coming again to judge the world—all nations and all people. But perhaps we die before that. In that case he meets us at the point of our death.

Why is Jesus speaking of himself as the ‘Son of Man’, and not of the ‘Son of God’? The title ‘Son of Man’ is first mentioned in the Old Testament in the year B.C. 555:

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

—Daniel 7:13-14

In the light of this statement we can easily see that there is really no difference between the ‘Son of Man’ and ‘Son of God’?

The time to receive pardon is not yet over. Jesus is still waiting. He left us with an invitation:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in ...."

—Revelation 3:20

God help us

livebullet: being "catholic" already defines ur christain identity. So y d "and" conjunction.?

Or could it be there are Christians and there are Catholics ? We all need to learn !

God help us

aryzgreat: My dear nice one from u.

A friend of mine dat attend rccg came to my house for some discussion, along the line he saw d crucifix in my house and asked if am a catholic i said yes am a staunch catholic, he then asked if am aware that our pope is now a muslim, i told him dat never happened, he said his pastor said so in their last fellowship in the presence of the congregation, i was mad. This mere call for respect among the 2 dorminant religion in the world has been taken by some illiterate pastors as pope's endorsement and conversion to islam. I weep for fanatics n liars that use lies to win converts.

Is there anything wrong with the pope converting to islam ? Is it not the same thing ! It's still one God. Pls dnt be mad at people like that next time.Just try to correct him/her subtly ! Be angry but don't sin !

God help us all

shdemidemi: Yes, a Christian can definitely fall into sin.

When we sin do we realize that we have erred and genuinely ask for His forgiveness and pray for the fullness of the spirit or better still,listen to the instruction of the spirit so we do not yield to the lust of the flesh or as Christians according to you,when we sin,we just continue with our life becos we have a spirit in us that does not sin right ?

God help us