₦airaland Forum

HellVictorinho:
Utopia is not real and I don't think there is anything that is logically and fundamentally amazing about any state whatsoever

I never for once thought utopia was real, but you for reasons best known to you brought up the talk utopia.
It doesnt matter anymore because you've essentially dropped toying with it

HellVictorinho:
All human societies are just as developed as they would always be considering what they have done in the past (including yesterday), what they are doing now (including today) and what they are planning to do in the nearest future (including tomorrow)

That from the beginning was the selling point, you will be gods, you will be judging from your experiences what is good what is bad, what is pleasure, what is pain, what is sweet, what is bitter, what hard, what is easy, what is cold, what is hot etcetera. Need I go on, need I say more, no, because I think you are becoming to get the drift now

HellVictorinho:
Are you implying that Africa was an Utopian State, then?

Possibly but please give me an example of a non-African Utopia state and what the criteria for being an Utopia state are

HellVictorinho:
We should have had enough of this 'Africaneia' talk.
There is nothing positively/negatively unusual about Africans/Blacks....
Nothing logically amazing was happening before Christianity was introduced to Africa
And,despite the progress that was made educationally when it happened, nothing unusually significant has happened since then.

People's history are rewritten by their conquerors

tintingz:
Determinism is an action that completely determine by previous existing cause. It's like cause and effect, it has connection and in details, it's a story without no conclusion and meaning.

Destiny on the other hand has to do with fate, something that will necessarily happen in the future, the big picture of your life, it's like a written script with end. There is no connection of events when it comes to destiny, it is a cognitive bias thing. People claim any of their actions has been destined by some hidden power or so, these are just fantasies that are made up without no evidence in details.

I will advise you to look out for definition of destiny, freewill, determinism.

According religion especially the Abrahamic religion, God created everything he's all knowing, he knows all your actions before you're born, he has written down your destiny in a book.

For God to create you and give you freewill or destiny which he already know the end of it, he has programmed your life. No matter your choices or freewill you will still fall to that fates God has programmed for you, God has control everything about you, freewill is an illusion in this case.

Define predetermination.

What do you understand by determinism?

Define god and define human. Do they make sense together?

Everyone can see how you prevaricated on each and everyone of the 3 questions I asked you. Why are you being divergent, is it because it's your nature, to veer off on a tangent hmm?

1/ Please indulge, do you really believe, your every thought, deed, action has been predetermined and programmed before you were even born?
2/ Please explain how you mean, humans being gods is fairy tale?
3/ When you and a computer are outside and it rains, who between you and the computer walks indoor to shield from the rain?

That above, reproduced, are the three simple direct and straighforward questions, you failed to answer. Your replies were unsatisfactory, lousy, deviating and without shame never adressed the questions, but here is a golden window of opportunity, for you to now properly and directly answer them, I mean the 3 questions are repeated here for you to redeem your image from first ducking them when earlier asked you.

When you stop prevaricating those 3 questions, I will show you what destiny, freewill, determinism is? As you've admitted that, humans, being gods, doesnt make sense to you, I will also then, reveal to you, why, how, when and where humans became gods. Human and god, in a sentence makes sense together. #IfYouKnowYouKnow. Classic case of if you know, you know and who no know, no go know

tintingz:
God is perfect, humans are not! If by chance God didn't know my next action and has to wait for me to do something then he's not all knowing.

If you tell me God is not all knowing (omniscient) I will agree.

C'mon now tintingz, what sort of warped reasoning is this? There is not a time God is not omniscient. God is not literally or in actual fact waiting for you to do anything, He is just and waiting for you to make your move , just exercise the God given freewill. It is because of God's omniscience that, He has standby response(s), for any of the choice you make.

Things you do, things you say, things you think or thought, have rippling effects and God deals with all of them, all those choices arising from acts of exercising freewill are dealt with

HellVictorinho:
List of what?

Your "He has never been good to me-FACT" list and make it a large one with ice

HellVictorinho:
He has never been good to me-FACT.

Give me a list, an inexhaustible one

HellVictorinho:
Exactly, it is not possible.
So you shouldn't describe God as a good person.

So we agree then, that God and Satan arent friends, unlike how you first remarked that Satan is God's friend with that "... Satan must be His friend" line

Why is God not a good person? What have you seen & found about God that in your limited eyes makes God not be a good person?

HellVictorinho:
If God can be described as good, Satan must be His friend.

Do friends slander each other? Do friends curse each other? Do friends speak evil of each other? Need I go on? Need I say more?

tintingz:
The bolded is "determinism" and not "destiny".

You dont even correctly know what determinism is

tintingz:
Destiny is your whole fate has been programmed before you're born even born, it is like a play.

Please indulge, do you really believe, your every thought, deed, action has been predetermined and programmed before you were even born?

tintingz:
Determinism doesn't have to any meaningful thing.

Knowing you, it depends on what you understand or construe determinism to be

tintingz:
These are just fairytales

Please explain how you mean, humans being gods is fairy tale?

tintingz:
Go back and read your previous response again.

I am the author, dont have to, dont need to, it is still fresh in my mind, it's you who needs to go back yourself, I've noticed you need to put more effort in understanding my bullshits, here is another bullshit, in form of an epiphany disguised in a question:
When you and a computer are outside and it rains, who between you and the computer walks indoor to shield from the rain?

HellVictorinho:
God's identity is that of a heartless being that is ever-ready to involve Man in his childish games with Satan despite knowing that Man is an amateur.
In fact, Man is just like the software.
Later, The Game of Edges shall become the The Game of Gory and the software (humans) will be left to the Lunatic Prince a.k.a Satan to destroy.

Are you privy to the entire facts, to the extent of knowing that God's identity is that of a heartless being that is ever-ready to involve Man in his childish games with Satan despite knowing that Man is an amateur? #misyarn?

It isnt childish games. It is about the goodness and love of God. What we are contending with is bigger than Satan. Yes, despite knowing that Man is an amateur and importantly knowing Man will come through a pro, stronger, a conqueror and a better Man

Softwares get (V&V), so Man cant be an exception of that process.

HellVictorinho:
If it has to do with God, it is illogical.

Your for example(s)?:

HellVictorinho:
Freewill usually refers to something illogical.

Usually it might but not always or all the time

HellVictorinho:
False logic is not logic.

Thats why its called false logic

HellVictorinho:
Logic says you can't choose your children literally.
And the fact that you are bound to choose doesn't mean you are solely responsible for everything that happens to you.
If you are against LOGIC, try common sense.

Unlike what you're trying to insinuate, nobody is against logic, nobody is against common sense, nobody is against conventional wisdom. Some starve the best part of the mind because of false logic

HellVictorinho:
You are bound to choose as a fully developed human specie!!!!!
How can someone that is not even formed in his or her mother's womb choose?
Apply LOGIC, dude.
I know there are human rights with limitations to the expression of these rights-old news.

Do you choose your children
Its interesting how applying false logic fails. Applying false logic humbles and wokes

HellVictorinho:
Only rappers can "choose not to choose."
I have something like that in one of my written rap songs though I have not been able to get my songs out there for people to choose.
Ultimately, you are also bound to choose.
If you don't do anything, it means you have chosen to remain inactive.
Freewill is against LOGIC as a concept.

Freewill has its time and place
Freewill essentially is carte blanche. It is the power to legally do whatever you wish and thats without flouting the laws of the land, is your fundamental right. You are not refrained from carrying out or doing what you've set your mind to. Your thoughts, actions, deeds and words are not dictated to you

Ultimately, you are also bound to choose you say. Bound to choose what? There are exceptions to that. Do you choose your family? Did you choose your birthdate?

HellVictorinho:
Then you shouldn't be proud of your knowledge.

What's not to be proud of being omniscient?
What is your gripe with being omniscient?

tintingz:
If I can tell all your next moves, your choices, won't you feel you're being controlled? Won't you feel I'm kind of a god?

Freewill means to act without constraint necessities or fate, if you can follow the fate I presented to you then you don't have freewill, you're just following what your destiny has programmed for you.

No destiny has been programmed anywhere for any one. What exists, is a programme to responds to whatever choices there are available for you to take, pick or make through you exercising freewill. Your destiny, is determined by the choices you made or choices others have made that have a ripple effect on you or your life.

No one has had a gun put to their head by God to do anything, say anything or write anything.

We are already gods, each one of us humans turned into gods, right back from Eden. You know how and in what context, we are gods, don't you tintingz?

tintingz:
is this not supporting my argument?

Not in the least bit is it supporting your argument and an argument it really is, this your viewpoint because I have never entertained the thought that because He beforehand knows my every moves, actions, thought and/deed He controls me, rather I have huge respect to Him for having huge balls of steel, almost literally speaking there, to still go ahead and let me exist, knowing fully well the antics I'll be up to, knowing fully well the extent of how much of a jerk or bitch human beings will go to.

tintingz:
If I can tell your every actions, choices beforehand, I can confidently tell you, you don't have freewill!

You are getting it twisted tintinz because it isn't if I can tell your every actions, choices beforehand, then you definitely don't have freewill, but it is, I know about your every actions, choices you made exercising your freewill, and this is from Me being omniscient, Me knowing the end from the beginning. Me confident to allow you make your choices, your action that are detrimental to me, yourself and possibly others through you using your freewill because I am still in control of the whole situation, there is nothing happening that is not what I am working on to ultimately get resolved and once for all fixed.

I know about every choice and actions of my computer beforehand. Now the difference between you and the computer, is that you have freewill, but the computer doesnt. The computer is a robot, you are not because of your freewill

frosbel2:
@MuttleyLaff
I know these are difficult statements to counter.

Take your time Next week is okay

Difficult statement ke? Unlike for you, it is a walk in the park to counter.

If not that I am out and about doing groceries shopping I would have already put you out of your misery. Small time now, you be squealing "insult before answer" again.

VBCampaign:
I used the "mail mode" option and got this thread to front-page

https://www.nairaland.com/4949198/blame-nigerias-woes-elites-deji

Thanks Muttley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWkgBGK3bmI
You havent yet said what Oby said that morning, that is swaying you towards her?
Also what is your take on her reason for going to Minna, paying Babaginda a visit?
Is she kneeling to Babangida, with her knees firmly on the floor at the end of that YouTube video?

frosbel2:
I often ask myself, why was MAN created into a world where evil already existed. Why was man subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail and why did his progenitors have to suffer for this first sin caused by evil that already existed in a world into which all men are born.

The bible talks about the tree of knowledge of evil and good , which means there was evil before we were created. What is the source of all the evil in this world if I may ask ;

- Is it MAN by knowledge of it
- Is it another entity by creation of it
- Or what ?

Furthermore, we often blame the devil for all the evil in the world, but the bibles says ;

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Job 2:10 English Standard Version
But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil ?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Lamentations 3:38
Do not both adversity and good come from the mouth of the Most High?

I think it was Originakalokalo, who said something to the effect that you're a greenhorn. These are learner miss road questions

Why was MAN created into a world where evil already existed.?
Answer:
MAN was not created into a world where evil already existed.


Why was man subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail?
Answer:
Man was subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail is the start of man becoming a better man

Why did his progenitors have to suffer for this first sin caused by evil that already existed in a world into which all men are born.
Answer:
The aftermath of the choice made with the first sin committed by Man is that his progenitors inherited a kinked template

The bible talks about the tree of knowledge of evil and good, which means there was evil before we were created. What is the source of all the evil in this world if I may ask?
Answer:
The bible talked about the tree of knowledge of evil and good, which in the original text, says the tree of knowledge of beautiful and adversity. You probably didnt know that the phrase "the tree of knowledge of beautiful and adversity" is the type of figure of speech called a merism The tree is the gateway, eating off it is the source of the experience of all the evil and good in this world

Is it MAN by knowledge of it?
Answer:
In a sense, yes

Is it another entity by creation of it?
Answer
Evil is the absence of good.
Not doing the right thing, at the right time and same time not be in right standing with God is not good and we have evil the absence of good

- Or what?
Answer
God triumphs over evil in the end and the end justifies the means

frosbel2:
Evil had existed before MAN, MAN is a victim of this evil as well as a perpetrator of this evil. The evil has brought untold suffering and pain on man and animal alike.

Typically believers explain this away with a concept called Theodicy which according to Wikipedia is is described as - "the vindication of divine providence in view of the existence of evil"

I am not sure I buy the Theodicy argument, so I ask the room, who is to blame for all the evil and suffering in this world.

Who do you think? Tell me who and who, you'll apportion blames to

Ranchhoddas:
In other words, you don't really have an answer.

The answer has being and is Jesus Christ but the reality and thing is, you are, by nature, a Christophobic and/or Christ destructionist

Originakalokalo:
@ muttleylaff,

If I say a word or statement that is not biblical, I expect anyone to challenge and call me to order..

The owner of the message is greater than the messenger. God is greater than us all.

You made a statement and I disagree. That has nothing to do with putting out someone's candle light....

There is no candle anywhere here...we all are teachers of the world of GOD. We should fear before him and take caution.

When Paul confronted Peter, he only corrected him.. he didn't take his place....

The most dangerous thing to do is to feed the weak with principles that are not of God...

Saying that Jesus can advocate for anyone before and after death, even someone who rejected him while alive, is wrong.

Our God is not a respecter of persons.... and he is a consuming fire.

Mysteries that cannot be understood should be left as it is. ....

I reached a conclusion . and told ihedinobi3 that it was a theory because I couldn't find its base in the scriptures.. I just wanted to be on the side of caution...

A theory could be right or wrong.. We are not just certain. ..

This place is not a battle ground nor a place to show off. It is a faceless forum and we don't know who is behind the keyboard that we type from.

Jesus is Lord.

I am pleased to see that you have calmed down now, before, you were issuing threats, and dishing out intimidating remarks

Originakalokalo, Jesus can advocate for anyone before and after death, even someone who rejected him while alive, just like at the beginning of every other court proceeding, will be advised to take advantage of the "states's" free legal aid, if havent already got a learned counsel. It is called the due process of law.

Ranchhoddas:
Tell me exactly...
How is my doubt unreasonable?

It is nothing personal. It is who you are, it is your nature, it is in your nature to romanticise the doubt. It is your choice. It is your freewill to exercise. Note you used and introduced the word "unreasonable", I didnt.

Ranchhoddas:
Which examples can you possibly give?
Hearsay examples?

My lack of belief comes from the fact that the facts do not add up. Anyone would accept Jesus if they were CONVINCED.
If I saw Jesus and probably took a peek at the Pearly Gates, why would I not accept Him?

Not hearsay, but biblical examples written in black and white and also red and white.
Trust me if you dont now and/or before you move on, you will never and wont ever accept Him, it's your nature, your nature will fight against that

Ranchhoddas:
What do you mean by my nature?
Is my nature different from yours? I don't accept Jesus for the same reason I don't accept Mohammed, Krishna, or any of the other Messiahs the world had witnessed. None has been able to prove their authenticity beyond reasonable doubt. Even Jews who had Jesus do not accept Him.
Is my doubt unreasonable?

Exactly and it is because you're by nature a Christophobic or Christ destructionist.
It is because of that doubt that possible has difficulting with in happening. You'll rather go to the dark abyss and lake of fire that personally acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Saviour. You wont take advantage of the free legal aid and have Him advocate for you. Wont have Him represent you and make pleadings on your behalf, as per the circumstances for your every thought, deed and action. You'll rather represent yourself instead of have Him mitigate for you.
cc Hermes019, frosbel2, Ihedinobi3

Ranchhoddas:
I could have sworn that you said that Muttleylaff -- "it is possible to be saved even after death".

Possible, but you wouldnt because of your nature, it allow or make "possible" happen

Ranchhoddas:
Why would anyone choose the dark abyss if it's obvious that Jesus offers a direct line to utopia?
Are you making stuff up?

Do you believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour Ranchhoddas?
If you dont now, you wouldnt even after death and when in court facing God in judgement, even to have Jesus represent you will be an anathema
I can give you examples of two people whilst alive and the other after death, who still refused to personally acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Saviour
cc Hermes019, frosbel2, Ihedinobi3

Ihedinobi3:
Just for the record, I do not agree that after death it is still possible to be saved if one was not saved during their lifetime. I have no scriptural reason to believe that. In fact Hebrews 9:27 stands solidly against such an idea.
[27]And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...
Hebrews 9:27 NASB

Ihedinobi3, with the utmost respect to you, please, as a matter of urgency, reply to the following:

1/ Are you able to produce where and when I said "after death it is still possible to be saved if one was not saved during their lifetime"?
2/ If you are unable to do, which I am sure you wouldnt be able to, will you please admit it as an allegation and retract it?
3/ ⁹“As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool;
His throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.
¹⁰A stream of fire issued and came out from before Him;
a thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before Him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened
- Daniel 7:9-10
Why couldnt and/or wouldnt you ask for explanation or clarifications on what I wrote about, concerning the access to & offer of free legal aid in?

4/ Do you accept and agree, that after death and the appointed time, there will be a court hearing at all?
5/ Do you accept and agree, that, in judicial proceedings, that could end up taking away one's life or liberty, the due process of law, is a principle that a person cannot be denied the opportunity to appropriate legal procedures and safeguards nor be deprived of access to competent legal representation?
6/ Do you think Christophobics or Christ destructionists, really would take avail of God's free legal aid?
7/ Even though this was when he was still alive, do you see King Agrippa, as a very good case in point of #6 above?
8/ Do you agree and accept, that God's free legal aid though it will be given the cold-shoulder by Christophobics or Christ destructionists, is as it were, fulfilling all righteousness?
9/ Do you accept and agree that Jesus Christ is the best Lawyer, (SAN) Senior Advocate Numero Uno anyone can have to represent them?
10/ Do you agree and accept that Christophobics or Christ destructionists just like every one else is entitled to have access to and be represented by a Good Lawyer?
11/ Do you believe your great great grandfather had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached to?

Ihedinobi3:
Nor do I believe, Originakalokalo, that any preaching occurs in the grave. It was to the rebellious angels serving time for various infractions during this war (see, for example, 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6) that the Lord Jesus proclaimed His Victory on the Cross since they did not know what was going on on Earth.

Note that when the Bible says "spirits", it is almost always referring to angels (Heb 1:7). Dead or alive, human beings are spirits that live in bodies so we are referred to as spirits with a qualification to distinguish us from the angels (for example, Hebrews 12:23).

Note also that if the Lord Jesus were preaching the gospel to dead human beings so that they can be saved, that would also violate Hebrews 9:27 and the Scriptures cannot be broken.

"And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment"
- Hebrews 9:27

Ihedinobi3, dont mind Originakalokalo, he was just going about snorting, huffing and puffing, as if like a garage bus conductor tout doing gra-gra and turning the bible on its head with his nauseating prooftexts. Did you notice how he prevaricated replying to my two simple questions exactly the way I asked them? I asked him specifically, about the fate of his great great grandfather, which is like roughly around 160 years ago, as in a 4 generations period but he beat around the bush with an utterly absurd or ridiculous reply that "... if an Ethiopian eunuch got to know about Jesus as early as that, my great great and greatest grandfather heard about Jesus. ....If they refused to believe in him. They go to hell. If you are alive now, you have heard the gospel. If you believe you are saved. If you die in sin, and unbelieve, you go to hell..". SMH. Who asked him about his "... great great and greatest grandfather". Would believe and somebody liked the chucklesome remark.

I was so pleased Ihedinobi3, seeing and read you mentioning Hebrews 9:27 in your post above, and that's why I have quoted and pasted it above
Now I am going to ask you the same questions I previously asked Originakalokalo which he found a way of not answering, they are slightly edited though
1/ What is the fate of your great great grandfather, who never had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached?
2/ Since your great great grandfather wasnt preached to, in the grave to by Jesus, does he have or not have the right of access to the best legal aid available, free or not?

Ihedinobi3:
I do make a difference when I discuss with fellow believers but being a believer does not exempt anyone from actually facing truths that they may not like.

It is unimportant to me what you prefer to call what I said and it certainly is not my business what you decide to believe. These things are up to you. But if you can pick and choose what to believe from the Bible with no consistency whatsoever, that is a serious problem for you. You will accept one doctrine as true in spite of the fact that its theological name is not present in the Bible at all and reject another because a theological name is lacking in a part of the Bible? And you think that this is honest?
I only bothered to make an input in this conversation because MuttleyLaff quoted me and I may be misconstrued as sharing his position. Otherwise, you already present yourself as a teacher so you are responsible to be true to the Bible in what you teach. I certainly have no right to tell you what to teach. If you teach falsehood, it will be to yours and to your listeners' hurt. If you teach Truth, it will be to yours and their gain. As much as I love all God's children, I can't tell any teacher what they must teach and any disciple who they must follow

Conventional wisdom, has it that, if you have a candle you don't put it under the table but above so that it can shine light. In light of the 11 questions above, are you sure you understand what MuttleyLaff's position is that you dont want miscontrued you share?

Hermes019:
Op if you ask 10 christians this question they will give you different answers as you can see with Ihedinobi, Mutteylaff, Shemuel and Kalokalo, I wonder what Albaghadi would say,anyways I'm here just to read comments

P.S mutteylaff so you are a Robert De Niro fan ?

The light of MuttleyLaff's candle can be more noticed in and on the area of darkness he typed about and it cannot be compared with Ihedinobi3's candle, if Ihedinobi3 has his candle placed in an already lit up area and/or so far lighted place

De Niro is G&T

Ihedinobi3:
Having said that, I was content to leave the conversation when you ended it. If you actually want to discuss this, then you will have to learn to reason with me rather than dictate to me. It is not your place to do the latter.

What Originakalokalo doesnt know, is that, blowing out someone else's candle, doesn't make his candle shine any brighter. "Ọrọ niyẹn ooo"
loosely translated means "word piece of advice"
cc Hermes019, frosbel2, Ranchhoddas

Originakalokalo:
" For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
(1 Peter 4: 6)

"to them that are dead"

This happened when Jesus died on the cross. He descended to hell....and preached.

After that, anyone else who heard the gospel and died without repentance is on his own.

Jesus gave that parable to teach us what happens afterlife.

That doctrine of advocacy after death for anyone who did not believe in Jesus IS OF THE DEVIL.

see this....

" And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
(Revelation 20: 15)

No advocacy after death.

Stop displaying ignorant doctrines...

There are weak souls here and you will be held accountable for misleading them.

Caution.

I will make this simpler to reply to.
1/ What is the fate of your great great grandfather?
2/ Was your great great grandfather preached to in the grave to by Jesus.
Answer now.

Uyi168:
..A very straight forward question..

Which, I have answered above and in more than one posts too.

Originakalokalo:
@ muttleylaff,

I will flag that doctrine of yours as that of the devils

again and again and again and again without thinking twice or flinching.

The rich man is in torment.... and he begged Abraham to send Lazarus to warn him brothers not to come to hell...

He is in hell awaiting judgement to be cast into the lake of fire....

There is no remedy for him.

Once you are dead, your soul either ascends or depends in the spiritual realm .

You are kept either in paradise with Abraham or with that rich man in hell or a place of torment....

After death, the first judgement is instant.. you only wait for the last and final one which is the lake of fire or heaven in the presence of God.

You are just prooftexting about and introducing an unnecessary parable that Jesus used to explain the correct perspective of Sheol.

Now did Jesus, in 1 Peter 4: 6 and 1 Peter 3: 19 and after 2000 years of that, according to your warped understanding, go to the grave to preach to your African dead ancestors? (e.g. your great great great grandfather). Answer now.