₦airaland Forum

babafemi1000:
I was referring to the whole chapter and not just a specific verse 7 which you assumed I meant and the "question" certainly isn't who the ungodly men are, it's about whether or not the resurrection has occurred. It hasn't.

Peter was speaking to "godly" men here and cautioning them so they do not fall away. In verse 11-12 one can see that he expects them to live holy and godly lives as they look forward to the day of the lord which is the day christ would return to earth as declared in acts 1:11 which I've quoted before but you ignored deliberately?

And how about the wedding in revelations 19 of christ and his church? Shey you said there's no heaven, resurrection, rapture, etc.

2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE DISSOLVED , what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
what things shall be dissolved?
the heavens (clouds) ,check verse 10.
verse 10 talk about loud noise(which is described as sound of trumpet in 2 cor 15:52, which means, calling to death, like trumpet is used to call us, it is time for us to die. In those days, trumpet was used to call people together them for battle)
it also talk about everything burning with fire.
which means, burning life out, such that we will die not perceiving the clouds again and all existence of life
Now, all these things are figurative languages (if u understand your literature in English ) and the literal meaning is death.
meaning, we will all die some day.
The day we die marks the day of coming of the Lord where he will come and judge mankind.
It is appointed once for men to die, after that judgement.
let's look at 2 Peter again.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and HASTING UNTO the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat(all these means, where in we will die )?
hasting unto death , simply means rushing to die..that is, dying prematurely, when you are not yet old enough to die.
what is responsible for this is sin, as the wages of sin is death.
sin kills faster.
That is why he says what manner of conversation ought you to be, in verse 11.
But the good news lies in verse, that after we die and being judged , we will resurrect into new heavens(clouds ) and new earth again. That is, this same earth that we are living now, that has clouds that we can see above.
2 peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
You may argue that there is no righteousness on this earth because there are atrocities currently around the world.
that is a big lie.
righteousness is found inside all christians here on earth, through Christ. inspite their sin.
2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Be diligent means, be diligent upholding your faith as a Christian, Don't allow anybody deceive you into other faith (religion ).that is the only way you will be spotless or blameless.
As Jesus is the only way.
ok, you also mentioned act 1:11.
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
This is figurative language which simply means, when we die, Jesus will come and judge us

Iceflox:
it just occur to me that when Jesus first mentioned hell fire in the book of Mark, he was referring to the fire of sacrifices and burnt offerings of the Jews of those days,where they normally used salt to season the offering meat and preserve them from decay by worms . Not fire burning people, and worms eating people in fire in the last day.
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

exactly,
that is the point.
i never saw it like that, i just read through the whole of that chapter and summarize.
you are very correct

babafemi1000:
How do you guys explain away 2 Peter 3: 1-18 and the wedding in heaven in Revelations 19?

ok you are referring to 2 Peter 3:7 specifically which says
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
The question is, who are the ungodly men?
the ungodly men refers to non christians.
Every christians where made godly by Christ through grace, so he is declared righteous and can't be said to commit sin no matter the sin he commits
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (God's seed) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
so, no Christian was reserved unto fire against of perdition.
Rather, every Christian keeps resurrect and continue to remain alive on earth forever and ever, no end.
Now, every ungodly men (non christians ) who lived as at the time Peter wrote this thing 2000 years ago, including everything that existed at that time, are no where to be found today.
they are all fade away or died (the second death) as if they were burnt off by fire.
that is what Peter meant by "reserved unto fire "
Peter was not referring to anything called hell fire which born people forever.
The lake of fire in revelation means death (call it condemnation or second death ), a state of lifelessness and nothing else

babafemi1000:
The scriptures clearly tell us about the return of the Lord Jesus. See below paul's warning in 2nd Timothy 2:

17 ..."of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.

Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Brothers and sisters, Jesus shall come again. Please don't be deceived due to ignorance. Search the scriptures for yourself. Pray God grants it to you to do so.

2timothy 2:17-18 refers to people who do not believe in resurrection saying that resurrection is pass.
But I'm saying that resurrection is now
eternal life is now
heaven is now,
not in our future.
so, if u are still waiting to go heaven then u don't know your right as a Christian here on earth

babafemi1000:
The scriptures clearly tell us about the return of the Lord Jesus. See below paul's warning in 2nd Timothy 2:

17 ..."of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.

Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Brothers and sisters, Jesus shall come again. Please don't be deceived due to ignorance. Search the scriptures for yourself. Pray God grants it to you to do so.

ok

ifex370:
read mattew chapter 24 vs 27 again and see that He was talking about a time different from theirs.. a time after He has gone.. a time of tribulation.. pay attention to vs 30 n 31. without the rapture there wont e need for an anti Christand therefore Christ would have to be wrong..

have faith n be of good cheer, expect His coming.. You and I will make it to heaven

ok
look at it this way
Matt 24:24 FOR there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;....
when ever a verse start with the word "FOR "the preceding statement is a written prophecy which the people were already aware of.
so Jesus was simply quoting out a written prophecy to his disciples,that there will be false prophets at the very time he will come to the world to die, which was 2000 yrs ago
matt 24:25 Behold, I have told you before(meaning, the disciples listening to Jesus talking have heard of false prophets before, so he was reminding them again ) .
so, false prophets also existed at that time which he was referring to.
Not the false prophets of our present day or our future days.
Matt24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(meaning, for as the direction of thunder strikes, so shall Jesus take a direction of his movement with his disciples preaching the kingdom of God from city to city, starting from Galilee,moving towards Jerusalem which is the direction, until he arrives at Jerusalem where he will be crucified).
so thunder lightening represent the direction of Jesus movement, Just like the sower represent the son of man, the field represent the world and the tares represent the children of darkness in Jesus parables in matt 13:37-38.
so, looking at it, there is nothing rapture there in this chapter

ifex370:
if you say NO Rapture,,, the you make our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ a Liar... for just as the lightening strikes from the east to wesy and seen by every one, so also will the coming of the Son of man BE

he was not referring to rapture.
he was referring to his coming to earth to die and save mankind which he did about 2000years ago.
just as the lightening strikes from the east to west is like a parable which means, he will travel from Galilee(representing east ) to Jerusalem where he will be crucified (representing west ).
so, the prophecy of Jesus coming as spoken by Daniel the prophet(matthew 24:15) has already been fulfilled 2000 years ago .
Matthew 24:34 confirmed it by saying
Verily I say unto you, This generation(that generation that Jesus came to the world to die) shall not pass, till all these things(all the things written in that Matthew 24) be fulfilled.
this is what ancient Catholic theologians who postulated rapture doctrine failed to see

Don't mind pastors
Don't mind religions.
There is nothing like rapture or end time in our future.
Don't allow them threaten you with rapture message and make you fear.
Please Don't take your current life for granted.
Enjoy your life to the fullest.
you are unique and ok the way you are,
there is nothing wrong with you that warrant you running to pastors.
All the pastors have their problems more than your own.
you don't know.
Take your education very seriously and become the best you can, make your wealth and touch your world positively, giving love to the needy and live your life happily.
All the church church going is not necessary.
They turn you to mumu , you will never know.
You think you are going to the house of God, working for God.
That conviction is the big deception.
They are making money from you.
The kingdom of God is right inside you,
everything is now in your hands

Innodon:
Man of God

it is not a surprise that adeboye is successful in his crafts.
Afterall, even babalawo and juju priests have been very successful in Africa over the years due to high patronage of the people.
why are Africans keep patronizing the likes of adeboye and babalawos and juju and orumilas them without being realistic that we are already in modern day of truth and awareness?
it because they are afraid of the unknown.
They are so afraid of the future, whether they will be successful or not.
They are so afraid of everything such that they loose self confidence (inspite the fact that Jesus says he has given us power ) and run after the adeboyes and babalawos for regular rituals, wasting so much of their money.
na God go save Africa

durasome:
.opp are you really saying this about gloplease check well again cause the last time I checked in my area, glo is the best in every thing.call browsing

that is your are.
people Who lives in ikorodu are do not bother to use glo network for browsing.
it is terrible there

brocab:
So what did the boy tell you-and what did you find?

lol
i won't repeat myself all over again,
you notice someone liked and complemented my post that it relief him or her .
That means the fellow has been reading his or her Bible diligently without any influence of sentiments born of personal beliefs as if he or she know nothing, abandoning all what he or she has heard before, facing the Scripture squarely for it curriculum
This shows that some people are understanding what i'm driving at while you are not getting a clue.
It is normal.
little wounder, out of the vast jews in jesus time,few people understood Jesus parables and the mystery of God's kingdom while the vast majority including the scribes and Pharisees where lost. consequently, few people entered the kingdom.
Infact you and I are already in that kingdom by grace not by what we know .
so, whether you understand me or not it does not change anything
i rest my case here .
lol

brocab:
"No" but you said this! Quote>The bible is so contextual and straight forward it requires high level of thinking to understand it. With this statement, it can only mean-you yourself believe you have a bigger IQ, then the rest of us.
So of course a child couldn't understand the scriptures, nor a teenager-but with your IQ level-you believe no-one can.
I have news for you-the bible was written simple.
And this is how?
The Holy Spirit was working back then and he is working in us all now. Elisabeth had the Holy Spirit-Mary also had the Holy spirit, Elisabeth said: the Holy Spirit leap inside her as Mary walked in. After Jesus and John was born, the Spirit then continualed with Jesus and John, it was the Holy Spirit who walked with them with their ministry's. Jesus and John was full of the Holy Spirit.
After Jesus had died-He sent the disciples another comforter {Holy Spirit} who taught them, more about the word of God.
Only because Jesus wanted all man kind to spread His gospel, no-one can understand the scriptures without having the Holy Spirit.
We all know the bible is written Spirituality, and it takes the Spirit to guild us through the scriptures.
The Holy Spirit also met up with Aaron each year in the temple-So it proves the Holy Spirit travels where He is needed.
After Jesus died, the temple was no-longer needed, it was torn in two, {Jesus predicted this will happen} Jesus had made away for the temple to be built in each person' where now everyone can enjoy the comforts of the Spirit living in us all, like He done with His disciples.
As you can see the Holy Spirit-is never in one place, He moves like the wind.
Jesus and John was born with the Spirit.
This is why it's important to be born again-so we too can have that same Spirit-John and Jesus carried in their ministry's.
Which now had spread across the nations-until this day-we are the new disciples spreading the gospel-this is the same gospel Jesus's disciples were taught by Him.
And in this day and age the gospel is continualing to spread at a faster rate. The Holy Spirit has been around since day one, and He will continual to stay around.
The Spirit of God, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in all.

look,
i have not said all i have said to contest IQ with you or anybody ok.
I'm pointing out some hidden facts of the Bible to you may be you didn't see it the way i saw it, and i don't expect you to grab everything at once.
I'm expecting you to read my post, go back to your Bible and cross check it again.
i told you a 16 years old boy first pointed it to me, that was in 2012. i was 19 then.
i never told him he is trying to prove he has a higher IQ than me. Instead, i humbled myself and go back to my Bible and cross check, it took me another one year to arive at what the boy saw, that was after i went through the new testament from Matthew to revelation on and on like 5 times repeatedly.
The next time i saw him he told me he didn't read through the new testament once, infact he never had time, But he was thought in Sunday school series of classes.
That means, if i had someone to teach me i wouldn't have gone through the stress of reading through the new testament 5 times repeatedly.

marykaydee:
Amazing. Liberating! Thank you

you are welcome

brocab:
You have no understanding in any of the scriptures-Christians wasn't a name used back then-but disciples were.
Quote> The bible is so contextual and straight forward, it requires high level of thinking to understand it.
What a lot of rubbish-God had written the bible simple, for all walks of life to understand, we have Children bibles, we have teenage bibles, and we have adult bibles, Jesus made away for all man kind to read the word of God.
Quote>We have read this bible and understand it, you can not come and scatter things, God is not an author of confusion.
Luke 1:41 "When Elisabeth heard Mary's greetings the baby leaped in her womb, and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Well you are wrong about the Holy Spirit not being around before Jesus was crucified. Jesus had the Spirit of God living inside of Him.
Matthew 16:13-17 "Jesus asked His disciples who do you think I am, some say, John the Baptise, others said, Elijah, and others said Jeremiah or one of the prophets. He said to them, who do you say, that I am? Simon Peter then said, "You are the Christ the Son of the living God. Jesus answered and said to him, "Bless are you Simon bar-Jonah, For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in Heaven.
The Holy Spirit is the massager
The Holy Spirit was working back then, as He works in us today.
One day each year the high priest would draw aside the veil and enter the Holy of Holies, to make atonement for the nation of Israel.
Aaron being high priest that year would meet the Spirit of God inside the temple behind the veil, for peoples sins and repentance.
So yes the Spirit was working within the disciples, when Jesus was around.
You heard it, from the word, Jesus said, it was His Father that revealed it to Peter, God is Spirit.

i didn't say children cannot understand Bible.
Adults can breakdown the complexity of Bible for children to understand, that's why we have children Bible.
Infact, all what i have just said here was first spoken to me by a 16 years old child in the UK. Meanwhile, among all the elderly popular prominent pastors in Africa where i am living do not understand these things.
ok, sorry
i was talking about the comforter, the holy spirit in Jesus Christ that make us christians and consequently we have eternal life.
Not the holy spirit that can come upon any individual once in a while to empower him overcome specific challenges.
The Holy spirit (the comforter ) is the spirit of the church(people, not building ) which is the permanent holy spirit that was born out of Faith at pentecost that Jesus dwells in all christians permanently which is God's kingdom on earth, this is the holy spirit born again disciples who followed Jesus before he was crucified never had. Except they were born again by following Jesus to Jerusalem , they will never have this kind of holy spirit(comforter at pentecost at Jerusalem ) which is God's kingdom on earth . This holy spirit (comforter ) is different from the holy spirit (God's spirit ) possessed by all humans in that, this conforter was specifically for salvation,eternal life and can also empower christians overcome specific challenges at Gods will. that is what I'm talking about. The other kind of holy spirit (God's spirit ) which was breathed by God when he created Adam as the life of God, works temporarily. Everyone have it ,whether you are Christian or not(including the born agains who followed Christ before he was crucified ). That is the one you saw in old testament and Peter having the ability to identify Jesus as the Messiah when Jesus asked, who do men say i am?
If they were the same kind of holy spirit, there will be no need sending the comforter in the first place. It should also be noted that, the moment Jesus resurrected the comforter came, born again sieze to exist at that point as there was no physical Jesus to follow again . Therefore we are christians, not born agains. Born again was a means to the kingdom which is Christianity on earth (except ye be born again you cannot see the kingdom ) and not the kingdom itself.
Christianity is the kingdom itself.
Who founded Christianity?
Jesus Christ.
when did he founded the Christianity?
when he resurrected from dead.
Born again was an inferior state to Christianity.
Jesus says the least person in the kingdom (Christianity ) is greater than born again (John the Baptist )
remember, John the baptist never saw Christianity (the kingdom ). He died before Christianity was established. The same goes to Judas Iscariot, all these people were all born again, they were Jesus disciples
so, i preferred to be called a Christian than to be called born again.
it sounds like revelation isn't it?
go and look at your Bible again

brocab:
Am I really going to answer this, it seems you believe born again's were only for the Jews from the past.
Christianity is another word for Christ like.
John 3:6-8 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh {Physical is merely physical} and that is born of the Spirit is Spirit, Do not be surprised that I have told you, you must be born again {Reborn from above} Spirituality transformed, renewed sanctified, the wind blows where it wishes and you hear it's sound, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going, so it is, with everyone which is born of the Spirit.
{The Spirit roams where God tells Him to roam}
Meaning, a born again are Spirit filled Christians today. No-one knows where the Holy Spirit travels to and fro. But He's still travelling, and still to this day, millions have turned from their evil ways, coming in at a faster rate, turning their own lives over to the lord.
Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples OF ALL NATIONS baptising them in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Which of course means-we now have the Spirit of God living in us all, those have chosen to follow after Christ of course. Born again means, having the Spirit of God residing in you-Jesus told His disciples He will send them another comforter.
The day of Pentecost the Spirit of the Lord-had filled the room-which coursed them to speak in other tongues.

hmmm!
all i see is, you are scattering everything here and there. because you don't want to use your brain to think and read this Bible and understand it
The Bible is not scattered the way u are scattering it.
Just know that Bible is written according to time as there is time for everything.
for instance, Genesis was written first because it was the beginning time, it goes down to 1samuel to 2kings because it was the time David lived, it then goes to new testament where we have Matthew, luke and John because it was time Jesus lived before he was crucified, at this time,(also known as days of John the Baptist ) Jesus met Nicodemus and told him except you are born again you cannot see Christianity, you cannot see holy spirit , because there was no Christianity at that time.
Christianity only exist after the resurrection,
holy spirit or comforter came after resurrection, without resurrection no salvation, no Christianity, no holy spirit.
after that time of Matthew,mark, luke and John where Jesus met Nicodemus , we have the time of book of act of the apostles where Christianity was fully established on earth at the day of pentecost, That was the first time the holy spirit came upon men, not the time of Nicodemus and born again .
So, this one you are saying born again are spirit filled Christians it is not correct.
Rather, the disciples who received the comforter at pentecost in the time of the book of act where the spirit filled christians, not the disciples who followed Jesus (including nicodemus) as at the time he was about to be crucified.
The 12 disciples who followed Jesus before he was crucified, non of them had the holy spirit at that time, they were yet to be christians, they were still in transition from Judaism to Christianity.
So, born again means to follow Christ (to be a disciple of Jesus, following him to Jerusalem where the kingdom of God was to be revealed at his resurrection )
that is why he told Nicodemus, except a man is born again (except a man leave all his belongings and follow me as my disciple to Jerusalem, he cannot see the kingdom of God at Jerusalem (if u are not there u can't see ), he cannot see Christianity which was to come at Jerusalem )
Therefore Christianity is the kingdom of God.
He told them, strive to enter the gate (meaning, hold your believe in me until I'm crucified, then u will see the kingdom )
Peter says we have left all and follow thee( towards Jerusalem ).
he told him, your reward is eternal life (the kingdom at Jerusalem )
So, mr man
we have read this bible and understand it.
You cannot come and scatter things.
God is not an author of confusion,
The Bible is so contextual and straight forward, it require high level of thinking to understand it

brocab:
Darkness is everywhere-Europe is full of darkness, corruption in political government societies, uneducated is everywhere, not only in Africa.
I don't live in Africa-and I have never been to Africa-I have travelled in other countries around the world-as well as mine.
Believe it or not-the darkness has travelled throughout the world. I have just recently come back from the Philippines-a Christian country that live in poverty, but does it mean they are uneducated, or maybe-it means their political systems are stealing from their own. Like in Africa.
I do agree, born again Christians may sound they label themselves above all other Christians, but its only because the bible said one must be born again before you can enter into the kingdom of God.
I myself am a born again Christian-and everyday I am either looking, or I find myself writing on this forum spreading the word of God, Not my words' but His. I do understand you brother-in a lot of ways-about some of these born again Christians, and some of them sound a bit over the top at times, I myself had been abused by them too, and I found because I am not fellow-shipping in their Church' but another, I am a stranger to their culture. Brother it is only because of their lack of knowledge, everyone knows, Wisdom, comes from the word of God. Many of my fellow believers have turned their ways, away from God, preferring to listen to some pastor, preaching about the cash rather then collecting souls. Most of these Churches are now flowing into the business world.
1 John 2:15 " Do not love the world or anything in the world, if anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not them.
Many other organizations may not like the way we preach the bible, but the word does say one must be born again. You yourself have taken my written quotes offensive, born again's may sound-but I assure you its bible talk, not our own.
You judge-not looking at your own quotes, very unpleasant, and offensive. Discrimination isn't the words I would say-this forum is used for us all to learn from each other, and our bible skills have gained 100%.
We hear the abuse all the time, all of you lay your boots in always winching mocking our skills in the word of God.
Remember" Jesus said many are called but few are chosen-He also said walk on the narrow road-rather then to stay on the highways.
Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
This behaviour is not always from the Born again's, but rather from other Churches who claim Christ, every denominational has faults and of course everyone is right, while the rest of the world is wrong. Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, Catholic's, Muslims, and many more churches who say they claim Christ, not only the born again's all of them believe they have the keys to our heavenly Father.
Do you also claim your Church has the keys?
But the truth is brother, all we can do, is walk our own walk with Christ, share the word, if we were to follow after everyone else-like sheep going in, for the slaughter, we too will loose our way.
Don't forget Jesus said he would rather see us, Hot or Cold-then to be lukewarm.

The truth is written-we either believe it, all we don't.
Nice chatting to ya.

thanks man.
the world is in chaos, i believe it is so because we christians allow it to be so.
if we give ourselves to study the Bible as though we are studying a school curriculum, bringing out one fact or element each chapter of the Bible truly present or what it is trying to teach, we will not run into unnecessary criticism and persecution by observers, then the glory of God will be fully presented to the world.
If you truly want to know what Jesus meant by born again to Nicodemus understand the meaning of this parable
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.(meaning, understand now what i mean by born again )
john 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.(so is everyone that is born again )
this John 3:8 is a parable, if you understand it, then you have know exactly what born again means.
The wind there represent a set of people only in that period Jesus was about to be crucified, after the crucifixion and resurrection they seize to exist.
The bible writer who recorded this chapter 3, recorded it according to how it was applied in that generation of the Jews Jesus was about to be crucified.
But today, when we read it in our present generation we will start claiming it that it is extended to christianity even when we have not yet understand the parable, thinking we are exercising faith .
meanwhile, there was nothing like Christianity at that time Jesus met Nicodemus

brocab:
What rubbish-Am I really reading this. You have clearly stated you don't like the Africans {never mind about the bible} because I write on their forum, I never said once I belong to Africa. You put them down-like they are some sort of criminals, in my country people like you wouldn't last on the streets. Your discriminating nature, is over the top, and you claim to be a Christian?
Get out of here.
Quote You are in darkness-you really need education to understand bible, you Africans are so dumb.
1 John 2:9 "Anyone who claims to be in the light and hates his brother or sister is still in darkness.
You don't understand much do you-you think Africa is the only place in the world that has the darkness, it also shows you without knowledge haven't understood-how darkness travel's across our nations, Evil is everywhere, not just in Africa.

ok
now i know you are not African
a sensible and educated african will not further defend the error associated with the doctrines (including that of born again ) introduced to Africa 2 centuries ago by European missionaries, after reading what i have just posted here .
through further investigation (using the Bible and other facts ) he will now know the damages these doctrines have caused Africans over the years in terms of social unity and brotherly love .
Because, how can you explain this? a fellow Christian downgrading another Christian by labelling him non born again simply because he is incapable of meeting up with certain moral standards set by the church , is this not cleavage and discrimination in religion?
That's why i say religion is mess, causing problems more than the problems they have solved.
This has been existing more than 2 centuries ago, and ignorantly, my people have been living with this problem without knowing that the practice is unscriptural.
my wish is, as many Africans that read my post they will have a rethink, and start threating their fellow brothers as one in Christ,correcting those that needs correction rather than segregating them.
You are not living in Africa, but those who do know what I'm talking about.
As for your conclusion that i hate africans, my answer to you is, Jesus never hated the scribe and Pharisees when he said woe unto them.
All I'm after is to get people do the right thing that's all.
if you want to practice Christianity or any religion, don't segregate or discriminate. As far as I'm concern, any Christian who keep calling himself born again will surely find himself discriminating other christians he thinks they are not. Trust me.
For instance, you will hear people saying i don't want to marry another, i want to marry a spirit filled born again man or woman who goes to church.
what kind of talk is that?
so, those who are not born again are not human being?
i don't know what you understand when i used the word darkness, but this is what i meant by darkness.
Uneducated society (more than 70% of the population not having access to quality university education ), leading to persistent election of corrupt leaders into political positions .
Does that describe the kind of society or country you are living?
i don't think so.
so, don't tell me darkness is everywhere

brocab:
You are asking the wrong questions, don't you read the bible-or do you have another?
Not only Africa, but all over the world, darkness had come.
John 8:12 "Jesus said "I am the light of the world, whoever walks with me will not walk in darkness.
It seems the darkness has overshadowed your life, you claim to be a Christian, but you are denying its power of the word of God. You seem to have trouble believing His word-I assure you-some of the scriptures that don't make sense now-will make sense shortly-only if you are willing to believe.
1 John 2:21 "I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because "NO" lie is of the truth.
Your Quote>was anybody on earth was impacted with eternal life before the death of Jesus.
Your answer was "NO"
2 Kings 2:11 "As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up two heaven in a whirlwind.
So the answer is "YES" Elijah was impacted with eternal life before the death of Jesus.

And you have the bible in front of you-these are not my words, these are the words of the Lord, and if you have chosen to dis-believe, what more can I write to you-since you are protesting against the bible.
Heaven and Earth will pass away-But the Lord said: His word will always stay.

That Elijah event of carried away was not eternal life impactation at all. It was a shadow of things to come.
You are even quoting 2 kings 2:11 which is old testament, i thought you will give me a Scripture in new testament which is reality of things.
Don't you know that old testament prophets(Judaism prophets for that matter ) and the law was a shadow of things to come?
Hebrews 10:1 says For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
This implies that the sacrifices of old testament? was a shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and Elijah was a shadow of John the Baptist.
The real Elijah was not the Elijah of old testament, the real Elijah that is to come was John the Baptist
Jesus says in
Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this(john the Baptist ) is Elias, which was for to come.
Now, the question is, did John the Baptist who was the real Elijah had eternal life?
the answer is no
Because, Jesus says the least person in the kingdom of God (in eternal life ) is greater than John the Baptist who missed the kingdom.
Now if John the Baptist who was the real Elijah lost eternal life, what makes you think Elijah of old testament who was the fake Elijah had eternal life by mere carried away by wind into the clouds?
You know what your problem is?
You African christians still think that eternal life is beyond the clouds, meanwhile Jesus says whoever believe in him here on earth should not perish but have eternal life John 3:16
You people are in darkness,you really need education to understand Bible, but schools in Africa are quack schools, that's the problem.
All pastors in Africa (esp the popular ones) are products of quack universities and schools, all of them. How can they understand bible?
The only good thing you people have derived from the bible is believing in Jesus for your eternal life. After that, you don't want to explore other good things from it
Have you ever travelled to Europe to see how white men have developed their world?
And you are telling me darkness is everywhere, you better travel o.
Atleast go and see, then come back.
Get this right now for your own good.
Eternal life was not impacted to anybody in the old testament, not even anybody in the days of John the Baptist until the time Jesus died and resurrected .
Adam and Eve lost eternal life in old testament, But Jesus brought it back to mankind in new testament after his resurrection, to be precise.
1 Corinthians 15:22 says, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Before Adam sinned were they in heaven?
no, they were on earth.
Now, what make you people, o African christians, think that when you resurrect you will go to heaven?
Are you not seeing white men remaining on this earth to replenish their world? (the original mandate God gave to Adam to replenish this world )
And you know what? the time Jesus met Nicodemus(before he died and resurrected ) falls within the days of John the Baptist where entering the kingdom of God ( entering eternal life ) suffereth violence and the violent taketh it by force.
i know you will never understand that statement, even after you have read it like 50 times in the Bible.
You africans are so dumb.
In summary, the term BORN AGAIN or to be born of water(the ministry of John the Baptist ) and of spirit ( the ministry of Jesus ) which was written in the book of prophecy as Nicodemus saw it, since he was a master in Israel, and only masters had access to the book of prophecy in those days, falls within this same period of the days of John the Baptist, and it has nothing to do with eternal life and salvation at crucifixion time
so, Catholics were very very correct.
I'm not a Catholic o
But i must say the truth the way it is .
The only problem about Catholics is, they stick to their old Roman empire tradition which are really not necessary.
Penecostals who were suppose to move ahead are the ones confusing themselves

brocab:
I can mention one person who aren't sinning, His Name is Jesus. I actually dealt if you are a Pentecostal, pentecostal's don't deny the word of God. As you have below.

John 3:3 "Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
The phase born again literally means "born from above" "Nicodemus had a real need, he needed a change of his heart, a spiritual transformation, New birth, being born again, is an act of God whereby eternal life has been imparted to the person who believes,

Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if he is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has past away behold the new has come.
1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be Born again to the living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 John 2:29 "If you know that He is righteous you maybe sure, that everyone who practises righteousness has been born of Him.
Titus 3:5-1 John 3:9-4:7-5:1-18-John 1:12-13 indicates that being "Born again" also carries the idea of becoming children of God.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Sinners are spiritually dead, when they receive spiritual life through faith in Christ, the bible likens to a rebirth. Only those who are born again have their sins forgiven, and have a relationship with God.

I could go on forever with this, but I think its time for you to reconsider changing your verdict, If you have chosen to abandon the term born again, like the Catholic's had, then its best for you to pray the rosary's asking Mary to save your soul.

no
it is time for we african Pentecostals to take the truth the way Scriptures put it , rather than misunderstanding Bible the way you are doing it now.
Right now, Pentecostals of developed nations like Us, the Uk, etc have come to know the truth and avoid using the term born again a long time ago.
Africa is still in darkness.
They are yet to understand the contradiction that is associated with born again doctrine.
let me ask you
you say being born again is when eternal life has been impacted to a person
was anybody on earth impacted with eternal life before the death and resurrection of Jesus?
if the answer is no, which it is , why would Jesus tell Nicodemus you must have eternal life (you must be born again ) when he has not even been crucified ( talkless of resurrection ) at the time he had the encounter with Nicodemus in john 3?
i don't know if you understand the question.
incase you don't, think and look at the question again.
i need your sincere straight forward answer

brocab:
Only for those who claim they are Christian-the differences between a born again Christian, and a non born again Christian, is as simple as this.

A non born again Christian, are those who live according to the flesh, people who have set their minds on what the flesh desires.
Non born again Christians talks only of their Church, fellowships with their Church, and lives for their Church.

Born again Christians are spirit filled, who live accordance with the Spirit, having their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
A born again Christian talks about Christ, fellowships with Christ, and lives for Christ.

Catholics abandoning the term born again are very correct about it.
we pentecostals are the ones confusing ourselves.
There is nothing like born again in Christianity.
It is either you believe in Christ (being in the Christian religion ) or you do not believe (being outside the Christian religion belonging to other religions )
i don't know why we christians are fighting ourselves by calling some christians born again and other christians who are sinful non born again?
who on earth is not commiting sin?
mention one person

ilevic:
I believe as a Christian, you don't need your pastor to tell you that giving attracts God's blessing. Don't know if you have read Luke 6:38. Anyway, one problem we have a Christian is that we think pastors are super human and that makes us blame them for any error we think they are committing. But the truth is, Christianity is personal relationship between one and God not between us and God through our pastors. If we allow the spirit to lead, we won't ask and argue issues like this.

that's true,
giving attracts God's blessing, giving in the context of the Luke 6:38 implies giving to the poor people in your community, that is what will attract people giving back to you in good measures, press down, running over when you are in need.
they will give back to you because they notice that you have been helping people who were in need. I think this is what Jesus was try to say in Luke 6:38, not giving to church .
Now, if we allow the spirit to lead us, we should be asking questions.
The spirit of God gives us sound mind and intelligence to ask questions. Why will pastors quote Luke 6:38 to make church members believe that Jesus was actually talking about giving offering or sowing financial seeds in churches?
like i have said, it is better for these pastors point out church projects to church members that these money they collect are needed for, then the church members will know what they are giving for, and why they are giving.
it should not be a situation where pastors perceive that if scriptures are quoted to support giving in church, members will start running to the alter with their last money so long scriptures are quoted (whether the scriptures were rightly quoted or not )

ilevic:
I was fascinated by the topic of thread but I can't really take u up on this because the whole write up is devoid of any biblical reference to justify your point. Anyway while I allow you to search for biblical references let me remind you that th e word "offering" is derived from "offer" which literarily means "to give freely". Either you call it contribution or whatever diction you employ as long as you are giving it to God, you are offering it. And mind you, offering is not limited to animals remember Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu offered Strange fire before the Lord Lev 10:1 the wise men offered Jesus gift gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh matt 2:11.

thanks for pointing out the literal meaning of offering. which means, to offer, to give freely .
The question is, do many christians think offering means to give freely?
are they not told that because the Israelites sacrifice offering of goat or Ram for atonement for sin in Leviticus 5:10, therefore they should sacrifice their money in order to get blessings
how about pastors reading this passage to get people believe that God will restore them from poverty if they give more offering
Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the cancerworm,....
is it true that this passage implies God will restore people of this generation from poverty if they continue to pay offering?

When you hear the word offering what exactly comes into your mind?
sacrifices of offering Ram to God for atonement of sin in the old testament, which was practiced in ancient Judaism(old testament ) and not Christianity .We all agreed that the resurrection of Christ which comes with a better covenant that ushered us into Christianity is now a substitute to that.
The question is, why are christians inspite knowing this truth keep offering offerings of money in churches? And pastors will keep reading portions of old testament(not new testament where Christianity started ) to uphold these practices for their financial benefit? (the same thing goes to Tithe doctrine)
Is this not a modern day religious deception?
Well, i am not against church members contributing money to sustain church activities, But that contribution should not come in disguise of offering, people offering money thinking that they are replicating the offering of old testament, It is anti intelligence to do that. It shows that people practicing Christianity are extremely foolish. And any pastor who calls money donation to church offering, do not care about the intellectual development of his church members, but is just interested in the money.
Now, offering money in churches is already a tradition and it can never be changed. But while we go about with this practice, it is of prime importance that, for the sake of the intellectual development of people for modern day living , especially nigerians, some inherent religious traditions such as, calling money contribution offering should be reviewed, and address it with the actual name , church contribution

this woman is extremely intelligent.
i guess even though she is a Nigerian she grow up and was brought up overseas.
she doesn't have the Nigerian mentality.
unlike most Nigerian women who will foolishly remain in a marriage that they are not happy

Bible did not say preach to Christian nations, Uk is predominantly christians.
Bible says preach nations like Bagdad, Kabul, where there are predominantly ISIS
or better still, Bornu state where there are boko haram is not far
you can preach there

Yahushuabride1:
1 Corinthians 8Amplified Bible (AMP)

Take Care with Your Liberty

8 Now about food sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge [concerning this]. Knowledge [alone] makes [people self-righteously] arrogant, but love [that unselfishly seeks the best for others] builds up and encourages others to grow [in wisdom]. 2 If anyone imagines that he knows and understands anything [of divine matters, without love], he has not yet known as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God [with awe-filled reverence, obedience and gratitude], he is known by Him [as His very own and is greatly loved].

4 In this matter, then, of eating food offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world [it has no real existence], and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, [a]who is the source of all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things [that have been created], and we [believers exist and have life and have been redeemed] through Him.

7 However, not all [believers] have this knowledge. But some, being accustomed [throughout their lives] to [thinking of] the idol until now [as real and living], still eat food [b]as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and because their conscience is weak, it is defiled (guilty, ashamed). 8 Now food will not commend us to God nor bring us close to Him; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor are we better if we do eat. 9 Only be careful that this liberty of yours [this power to choose] does not somehow become a stumbling block [that is, a temptation to sin] to the weak [in conscience]. 10 For if someone sees you, a person having [c]knowledge, [d]eating in an idol’s temple, then if he is weak, will he not be encouraged to eat things sacrificed to idols [and violate his own convictions]? 11 For through your knowledge (spiritual maturity) this weak man is ruined [that is, he suffers in his spiritual life], the brother for whom Christ died. 12 And when you sin against the brothers and sisters in this way and wound their weak conscience [by confusing them], you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if [my eating a certain] food causes my brother to stumble (sin), I will not eat [such] meat ever again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

thanks

johnydon22:


Living happy is not dependent on clutching on to wishful hopes of an afterlife in this one.

One who has not finished living this one busy in a vainful greedy chase is busy chasing after another will end up having not lived this one at all.

It is better we don't delude ourselves with such wishful hopes and focus on where we are and what we have.

A tree lives and dies
A lion does same
An elephant same thing
A human goes through that same biological metabolical breakdown.

what is the gain you ask? The gain is every thing.

-Having lived at all is the gain...

Let one not throw their chances of ever having lived by dwelling in a fantasy of getting another...

You are perfectly right!
Let one not throw their chances of ever
having lived by dwelling in a fantasy of
getting another..
And
One who has not finished living this one
busy in a vainful greedy chase is busy
chasing after another will end up having
not lived this one at all.
these statements are powerful, infact i have to copy and save them.
I think this is the problem of believing in existence of God and eternal life.
the problem is not from the fantasy the person believes, the problem is from the person himself
Many have abandoned their immediate life running after religious pursuit in the name of getting another life, how can they be happy?
The only requirement Jesus ask us to do is BELIEVE, that's all.
Then go about your normal duty and be happy.
All these religious church going, running after pastors may have negative impact.
But what we do to remain happy is to take the scriptures by it word and go away, not doing anything serious about it but just say it is true after reasoning it.
Now, if you say your happiness in life do not depend on it, then you still do not come in terms with the truth.
a simple litmus test is this, nobody is ever happy when he or she is cheated moneywise by any means. How much more everything you ever worked for in the life you spent 70,80 or 90 years is taken away from you just one day.
If you were not alive to cry for yourself even your love ones who were alive at the moment will cry for you.
i have never seen any corpse still smiling in casket..But those who believe they will resurrect again are already smiling the smiles now

krattoss:
but then does it change the truth?

whether it is true or not that there is no resurrection nobody can detect it by science.
All human are blind in that aspect.
But if there is a recorded promise of the bible that there is resurrection, and we reason it and see the sense behind it.
Our best wisdom as humans is to wish that it is true so that we will relax and remain happy(remember, happiness at all times is the key to a better living ) and forget what will happen after death in the main time while we are alive
As denying it will always make you sad when ever you remember that someday you will die and go away.
Imagin, you were born into this earth, you grow and struggle hard to accumulate all your wealth, only for you to die and leave everything for someone else.
Then, what is your gain?

op, is this orientation of how to make it to heaven directed to christians or non christians?
as a christian,are you in heaven right now or you are about to make it to heaven?

one big benefit to believe that there is another life again here on earth for you, after you die is, you will feel relaxed and focus on your day to day duty here on earth, and not be afraid of what will happen next when you die.
To have this state of happiness, you must believe that an external God who is alive is capable of giving you life again when you die

Proximo73:
the Scripture says when two or three are gathered together in his name, he there in their midst.
this shows that praying in group is more effective than praying individually. That's why you see Christians gathering in churches

No
don't get it twisted.
he is in the midst of two or three when they gather does not mean that he is nowhere else at the same magnitude he is in the midst of the gathering.
Remember, God is everywhere.
you can't hide from him by not gathering..
You can worship anywhere.
even in your toilet

Proximo73:
you are right! But i still want to ask, do you pray at all?

ofcourse! i pray a lot. the truth is, everybody prays