₦airaland Forum

The Heat weren't that impressive. Just that they were up against a talented, but young (2nd youngest finals starting team ever, apparently) and less experienced team that kept making a few costly mistakes here and there.

Westbrook, Durant and Harden are only going to improve between now and when they hit 30 while James, Wade, and Bosh will probably lose their edge.

Dudu_Negro: Physics,

From what you shared, yes, there is no doubt that Aramfe/Oramfe are same individual. On the direct connection with Ondo, I will find the author's assertion questionable. It is great that many Yorubas are documenting the history of the land but it seems to me that in absence of a regulating authority to spot-check or review and authenticate what is written, writers are taking liberties to embellish the history of their lands, giving an account that is at cross-purpose with the authentic source in Ife.

The Yoruba states were derived subsequent to Oduduwa's reign and the seven were - Orangun, Popo, Sabe, Owu, Bini, Oyo and Ketu.

Ondo would be a much later founding as a result of settled influences from Orangun and Bini. There is no way Oduduwa or Obatala, whether in their physical presence or by mythical narrations could have had direct parts in Ondo history. So I don't know how or where "Kingdom of Ondo" came about. These two authors - Olupona and Lawuyi cannot be taken to be authorities on the origins of Yoruba, they very well could be experts on Ondo history.

Although I don't know if there is definitive evidence that those seven states existed before others, your statement that Ondo would be much later than the era when Oduduwa or Obatala was around does seem to be correct from available information. It's unfortunate that I'm unable to find out from those articles everything that is stated about the relationship between Oramfe and Ondo beyond the little that I've read because he does seem to have been an important figure.

@ Negro Ntns

Well Oramfe does really seem to be an alternate spelling of Aramfe mentioned in the text you linked to, so the accounts of Aramfe given there would also be part of the stories about Oramfe. It seems certain that they are the same, but whether the name is really Aramfe or really Oramfe isn't obvious and one of the two slightly different names may just be a dialect variation on the other original.

I can't tell you any more than the little that I've read about Oramfe, so if you want more in-depth information, perhaps speaking with someone besides yourself with a deep knowledge of Yoruba religion or history would be a good idea.

I've read that Oramfe was originally an actual person, who settled a dispute between Oduduwa and his rival Obatala or Orisa-nla (Oramfe acted as a mediator), was later invited to Ondo where he played some role in assisting the kingdom of Ondo, and then was later deified as the god of thunder. It's not clear (to me at least) whether he was a ruler of Ife that preceded both Obatala and Oduduwa to Ife or someone who came later than both, but he seems to have been a very important figure to be deified and to be held in high esteem in Ife. He is apparently known as the god of thunder in Ife, Ilesa, and Ondo, but not known outside of that area. That's a very brief summary of what I've pieced together from various sources, but there are more detailed studies of Oramfe that I have come across but haven't been able to access.

These are three studies of Oramfe:

"Oramfe: Salvation and Tradition among the Ondo-Yoruba" by Jacob Olupona

"Oramfe: myths, rituals of cosmization" by Jacob Olupona

"Mythical images, historical thought, and Ondo religion: the Oramfe myth as clue to Ondo-Yoruba identity" by Olatunde Lawuyi

If I could access these I would post the contents of these articles or detailed summaries but I can't. Sorry I don't have more information. As I said before, I just know who he is (a god of thunder and a mediator), but don't know what deeper significance he had originally or has today.

Not all that surprising that there's been some slight improvement in this area so far actually.

The agriculture minister, like the minister for power, is an accomplished academic, and although academics don't always produce the desired results, I think people who have actually accomplished something in their career before being appointed to their positions - whether those achievements are in business, academia, philanthropy, education, or some other significant field - have more of an incentive to work hard and produce results in order to uphold the image of themselves as achievers to themselves and to others. It's highly unlikely that Dr. Adesina will spend the next few years of Jonathan's tenure doing anything other than improving the agricultural sector, given his background.

I've been led to understand that there are some recycled ministers from previous administrations in GEJ's cabinet and some people that are viewed with distrust or outright contempt, but agriculture is one area in which I think the GEJ administration actually has a chance of delivering good results.

Oh. Ok.

shymmex: PhysicsQED and Chief Dudu_Negro, come in here brothers - I need some education.

Why do you think Ebira is Yoruboid? I noticed you mentioned them in your opening post.

I don't know much about their language, but I do know that it's usually claimed to be a Nupe-like language.

@ Negro Ntns

Interesting posts.

a) If you want to find out who "Aramfe" is, try and find out about "Oramfe". The name of that particular deity (or deified person if he was originally a person) is usually spelled Oramfe and not Aramfe as the author in that link you posted spelled it. I know who/what he is, but not much about what deeper significance that deity has or had in the past.

b) I doubt that a chain can be a reference to helical DNA since the helical structure of DNA was unknown until the 1950s, but an umbilical cord from heaven (the mother's womb) to earth (the world) is a nice fit.

c) Snail mucus is produced by a gland in the snail's body and secreted from the fragile body itself, not the shell. I think snail shells reminded people somewhat of seashells which themselves evoked the idea of the world being flooded since seashell fossils from many thousands of years ago are found on mountains and other places inland from the beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth#Origin_of_flood_myths

Since seashells "survived" an imagined world flood, they might have been seen as having the quality of overcoming floods or building/making dry land.

[img]http://4.bp..com/-NTEJCzh44O4/TyuZzLRS33I/AAAAAAAADP4/BDaAh5_jazI/s1600/Agbani-Natures+Gentle+Touch+Ambassador.jpg[/img]


[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoAq5-i0FPY_9v4q1Ne-iOa0irDayigN1jaA9dWpA-1-bqrwUVvA[/img]

tpia@:
has it occurred to you the mixed population exited, or could have been forced to exit benin?

move to other parts of the kingdom?

just a thought.

No.

And you think these groups may have left to the interior?

shymex: ^^^^Binis are Yorubas..

I'm trying to piss my buddy, PhysicsQED off... Bwahahahahahahaha

You guys got everything from us..

Ile Ibinu!

How is that supposed to piss me off?

tpia@:
mixed look meaning mixed look.


ie of mixed ancestry.

not something you can access/ascertain instantly, as i pointed out before.

these things take time and familiarity with the subject matter, or area under discussion.

not necessarily based on books either.

Well putting aside books, I have yet to see these "mixed looking" non Bini people from Edo state that aren't actually mixed.

I hope it's understood that different ethnic groups of black people definitely aren't supposed to look identical in terms of facial features, mixture aside.

tpia@:
your questions arent something that can or should be answered right off the bat.

it takes times to reconstruct these things.

and they were there mostly for slaves, not friendly visits.

Who said they were there for anything other than trade? Who implied they were there for friendly visits?

Now since the Binis seem to have been ruled out as candidates for being mixed by virtue of the fact that they don't have the right skin color on average, it's other groups in Edo state that are supposedly mixed looking.

But I want to know what places are being referred to when someone says something like "Some areas in edo are very light and do look mixed."

tpia@:
features, mainly.

but light skin tends to be more noticeable.

Well when you say features, that means cheekbones, nose shape, jawline, lips, etc. right? So what exactly is this "mixed" look in terms of specific features and who has it?

tpia@:
maybe you should check more. I dont see why they'd limit themselves to benin alone.

they'd already been to angola, congo, parts of east africa and goa.

Working their way up the coast via sao tome and fernando po, in addition to other islands.

Where do you think they went in the Benin kingdom besides Benin and Ughoton or where do you think they went in Edo state beyond the Bini area? The Portuguese visited several places in southern Nigeria, but I am talking about Edo state specifically.

This is kind of a situation where we'd need new information to show that they went to more than a few places associated with the kingdom of Benin. Not a situation where we can assume that because they'd been to some other places in other areas of Africa that they'd automatically go to several places in one specific area (modern day Edo state) of southern Nigeria.

tpia@:
the op specified light skin, but it doesnt mean light skin is the only indicator of non-black dna. Its just the easiest or most visible evidence, that's all.

Have you seen someone from Edo state with naturally wavy hair? Or what are you referring to then? Noses? Jawline?

Ivory Coast and Angola are good.

The rest are just average or ugly.

@ V Official

First, as far as "Ham, Shem, and Japheth" are concerned, none of those people existed, and Noah probably didn't either.

The person called "Noah" is a version of Utnapishtim/Ziusudra (look it up), and the fantastical stories about these people are not real, even if they might be based on real people who survived a (local, not global) flood in the middle east in ancient times and then perpetuated the idea that God intended specifically for them to survive because they weren't wicked.

The "curse of Ham" is not a curse on Ham, but on Canaan. The Israelites invaded and conquered Canaan and to justify this they asserted that the religion of the Canaanites was evil and also that the Canaanites were cursed for something lewd that their supposed forefather (Ham) did to his father Noah. Whether their religion was really "evil" or not, the Phoenicians (Canaanites) don't really exist as a nation or distinct culture today and they were conquered by the Iranians (Cyrus the Great), an "Indo-European" group, and by Greeks (Alexander the Great and multiple other times), a European group, and also the Romans (after the Battle of Carthage), another European group, and all of these groups could be interpreted as being descended from "Japheth" (who for whatever reason is associated with Europeans just as Ham is associated with blacks) had he existed, seemingly confirming Genesis 9:27 to people who believe in that sort of stuff.

Of course the Canaanites were actually definitely a Semitic group so they would actually have been descendants of "Shem" had he existed and very closely related to the Israelites, but the story claims they are descendants of Ham for reasons best known to the author that made up the story. Probably it was best to distance the Canaanites from the Israelites by claiming an alternate origin for them since their practices were considered evil and they were considered the enemy.

Ham, Shem, and Japheth are actually blessed by God in the Bible. Since Ham is blessed by God and not cursed by Noah, and his son Canaan is singled out for punishment, it makes no sense for people to assert that "Ham is cursed and blacks are descended from Ham, so blacks are cursed" like some people do. Not just because the story is religious fiction, but also because the bible just doesn't support that interpretation.

If you've read the Bible you will remember this episode:

Moses takes an "Ethiopian" (black) wife upon leaving Egypt and one of Aaron's female relatives or some other woman in their group objects to this and as punishment God turns that woman's skin to a pale white color.

The import of this fable is obvious - God doesn't have a problem with the skin color of "Ethiopians" (blacks).

Since you seem to believe in the Bible or one of the Abrahamic religions, I just thought you should know this.

tpia@:
Btw, how do you know the monks or the europeans didnt go to other parts of benin kingdom?

They obviously went to warri and moved on to benin from there. They'd have passed other settlements while doing so.

I honestly don't know that they didn't go to other parts of the kingdom of Benin, but there's also nothing I've come across to suggest that they actually did go to and stay in, much less try to Catholicize anywhere beyond the Bini area. And even then, their presence in the Bini area seems to have been limited to Ughoton and the capital (there's not even any mention of them going to Udo or Urhonigbe for example).

But if you've come across a source showing they might have had a presence elsewhere, please post it.

tpia@:
^just some places here and there have people who are obviously mixed but without explanation for the mixture.


The op's theory is interesting no doubt, but one would have to look at other areas where capuchin monks were active, in that era, and see if the same applies there.

Meaning are there mixed looking populations in such places, with no explained links or ties to account for them.

Also, one cant discount a more recent input of foreign genes which have to be kept secret for various reasons which you can guess at.

I actually wanted some specifics about "who" "where" and why you thought they looked mixed. Not "some places here and there" and not an assertion of "obviously mixed" without any elaboration on what's so "obviously" mixed about them.

The fact that the group in that area that seems (from available evidence) to have had the most interaction with the Portuguese - the Bini - is darkskinned on average and rarely light compared to some other Nigerian groups should tell you that the OP's theory has basically nothing going for it. And as I said before, there are blacks in other places in Africa such as southern Sudan who seem to be clearly darker on average than some allegedly "unmixed" black groups in West Africa, so we already know that there's a natural variation in skin color among black populations independent of mixing with non blacks and we'd need to base conjectures about groups being mixed on something more than just skin color.

What are these areas and how do they look mixed?

What group in Edo state has facial features that remind one of actual mixed blacks? Can you provide some examples of what you're referring to?



Honestly the OP's theory fell flat because it was based on the kingdom of Benin - not on areas surrounding the Benin kingdom that the Portuguese never went to and were not trying to Catholicize.

lol, there's no mention of Oba Esigie or a Benin king from any time having a Portuguese wife anywhere (tradition or documents), but I can't rule out the possibility just on that alone. Kings had many wives back in those days.

It was an Olu of Warri, Don Domingos, that was known to have a Portuguese wife. I remember coming across the specific source for this. He married a Portuguese noblewoman, though I don't have access to the book which mentions her specific name (it's known) right now.


@ Patsey

Binis do not have a significant frequency of "lightskinned-ness" compared to some other surrounding groups such as Igbo or Ibibio. Meet actual Binis in large numbers, take a look around and you'll confirm it for yourself. The majority of us are "dark brown" to "medium" brown if you understand what I mean. So your theory kind of falls flat there. Binis are not one of those groups you can list with Igbo or Ibibio as a group that has a significant number of lighter skinned people.

By the way, why is it that "Caucasians" vary in skin color from an almost white paleness (think of the skin color of so called "ginger kids" or "gingers" ) to a more pinkish color or a pale beige color without claims of intermarrying with non-European groups, but people assume that once any black people aren't as dark as some Southern Sudanese (some of which might be even darker on average than some of the West African blacks who are considered dark enough not to be questioned about being mixed - a major problem for your argument), they're mixed with non-blacks? "Black" skin color varies, just like "White" skin color, or "Asian" skin color would.

tpia@:
^she found out about her "african" ancestry?

is she white?

If I had added the word "more", as in "finding out more about her African ancestry", could this snide remark have been avoided?

I don't always phrase things perfectly. Sue me.

lol, for whatever reason nobody wants to claim her. I don't understand it. She looks fine and I don't think she has a particularly "ethnic" look about her that could even indicate what group in West Africa she comes from (excluding a few groups like Fulani probably), not to talk of which specific Nigerian group she's from.


@buzzedoffbeauty

If you had posted a picture of yourself smiling pleasantly, looking more joyful or with the most angelic expression a person can have, rather than the expression in that picture, which is kind of okay, but which honestly also kind of looks like you're staring vacuously ahead into nothing, I don't think all this back and forth would have occurred. Anyway, congratulations on finding out about your African ancestry.

@ 3

According to wikipedia:

"The term major general is a shortened version of the previous term sergeant major general, which was also subordinate to lieutenant general. This is why a lieutenant general outranks a major general, whereas a major is senior to a lieutenant."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_general

Makes enough sense to me. Problem resolved (unless anyone has a more reliable source contradicting the above).

If this series is ongoing, I hope he returns to West Africa.

If the point of this series is to showcase African kingdoms that were sophisticated in one way or another, there's a lot that happened in West Africa that's worth mentioning besides Asante and Benin.

And if he's going to include the Berber kingdom of Morocco as African because it's in North Africa, why didn't he include Egypt which is also in North Africa and is also part "black"? I honestly wouldn't include either because one (Egypt) is a hybrid (African/Asiatic) culture at best and the other (Morocco) is really only African by a technicality (being on the same continent) although the country is part black (due to the Arab slave trade).

-edited-

"Are they really 'famous for being famous' or is there something more?"

There's definitely nothing else there.

The media obsession they're getting now is the same as what the Osbornes got when they put their crazy family on national TV several years back, but at least one member of that family is actually a rock star. I don't see why these Kardiashains should be famous.

Anonymous, please tell me you're not a fan of their antics. You seem way too reasonable for that.

^^^^
That scheme is over. Find a new angle.

http://www.nigeriansinamerica.com/articles/2497/1/Mobils-Oily-Battle-Over-Intellectual-Property-Rights/Page1.html

http://mobile.saharareporters.com/press-release/efcc-release-79-year-old-nigerian-man-arraigned-obtaining-false-pretenses

https://www.nairaland.com/933915/efcc-79-year-old-nigerian-man

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3010/2563858562_8b859aab1b_z.jpg?zz=1

'Asante and Baule ornaments

Counterclockwise from top:

Soul Washer's disk (Akrafokonmu)
Gold
Ghana; Akan peoples, Asante group
18th–19th century

Face Ornament
Gold
Côte d'Ivoire, Baule peoples
19th-20th century

Snake Ornament
Gold
Côte d'Ivoire, Baule peoples
19th-20th century

Scorpion Ring
Gold
Ghana; Akan peoples, Asante group
19th–20th century

Pair of Lion Ornaments for a Chief's
Hat or Sandals
Gold
Ghana; Akan peoples, Asante group
19th century

Luxurious courtly arts wrought in gold are the prized emblems of leadership of the Akan peoples, and the Asante kingdom in particular, in what is today the modern nation of Ghana. By the mid-eighteenth century, the Asante kingdom had unified this culturally homogeneous region and asserted its control over trade in gold, textiles, and slaves. Asante's remarkable wealth and political vitality were symbolized by the extraordinarily rich art traditions propagated and sustained at the court by the king, or Asantahene.

In Akan thought, gold is considered an earthly counterpart to the sun and the physical manifestation of life's vital force, or kra. Cast gold disks called akrafokonmu ( "soul washer's disk" ) are worn as protective emblems by important members of the court, including royal attendants known as akrafo, or "soul washers." Individuals selected for this title are beautiful young men and women born on the same day of the week as the king. Worthy of serving the king in light of their youth and vigor, they ritually purify and replenish the king's vital powers and, in doing so, help to stabilize and protect the nation.

The akrafokonmu pictured displays a central rosette surrounded by a circular border of repeating vegetal motifs. The inspiration for these intertwining leaves and tendrils may have come from North Africa, a region intimately linked to the Asante kingdom through the trans-Saharan gold trade. Even so, the composition as a whole reflects specifically Akan aesthetic concepts, in that the circular form of the disk and the concentric arrangement of the designs evoke the emanating rays of the sun that were the source of the kra of the king and his people.

Metropolitan Museum of Art'