₦airaland Forum

^^^^^

Achuzia cannot lie?! I'm not even going to touch that one. Just let me know when you can find even a shred of evidence that the Midwestern government refused to provide relief for displaced Midwestern Igbos and I'll take you seriously. What you wrote there does not counter my objection to your assertions or prove the claim you made.

mpumalanga: The south east was marginalized with the current AIG promotions and
Peter OBI and inter-society protested and they accepted that they overlooked
south east.OSAYANDE chairs police service commission with the same mind set as at that time. don't tell me it was a collect decision because if he was igbo and it happen to midwest os SS, they will put it in the museum where the put igbo deeds and wait for another opportunity like i967.

You've got to be kidding me! A minute ago you made some allusion to Binis complaining about Bini priests being passed over for selection as bishops and tried to use it as an example of undermining and oppression of Igbos and now you turn around and support exactly the same kind of ethnic complaining that you were holding in contempt! And what evidence is there that Osayande's incompetent promotions were fueled by ethnic bias? Give a comprehensive account of the names and origins of the promoted and those of the people that were passed over.

This Bini bishop crap again? Look the truth is that the non-Bini bishops appointed there did nothing to sway the Bini there or in the rural areas to their particular Christian sect so those Binis who adhere to that sect and who live in Benin want someone who they think might take an actual interest in doing so and they wanted the potential bishops selected according to proper procedure not according to someone's whim. It would not not matter if an Esan or Etsako or Urhobo was there doing the same thing. The only significant aspect of that whole fiasco is the unanswered question of why the people (non-Bini) they appoint to Benin seem to do fvckall and sit on their asses collecting awoof. A bunch of people obsessed with getting more of their people to adhere to their religious sect while writing ridiculous letters or articles complaining of oppression does not amount to an attempt to undermine and oppress others.

On the arms buildup, it could go either way (that Gowon was or wasn't), although I think I remember reading in de St. Jorre's book that both sides were indeed arming themselves. Not 100% sure about that though.

This is what was claimed at Aburi (don't know if it was the actual truth however):

Importation of Arms and resolution renouncing the use of Force

4. Lt.-Col. Ojukwu spoke next. He said that the Agenda was acceptable to him subject to the comments he had made on some of the items. Lt.-Col. Ojukwu said that no useful purpose would be served by using the meeting as a cover for arms build-up and accused the Federal Military Government of having engaged in large scale arms deals by sending Major Apolo to negotiate for arms abroad. He alleged that the Federal Military Government recently paid f1 million for some arms bougth from Italy and now stored up in Kaduna. Lt.-Col. Ojukwu was reminded by the Military Governor, North and other members that the East was indulging in an arms build-up and that the plane carrying arms which recently crashed on the Cameroons border was destined for Enugu. Lt.-Col. Ojukwu denied both allegations. Concluding his remarks on arms build-up, Lt.-Col. Ojukwu proposed that if the meeting was to make any progress, all the members must at the outset adopt a resolution to renounce the use of force in the settlement of Nigerian dispute.

5. Lt.-Col. Gowon explained that as a former Chief of Staff, Army, he was aware of the deficiency in the country's arms and ammunition which needed replacement. Since the Defense Industries Corporation could not produce these, the only choice was to order from overseas and order was accordingly placed to the tune of f3/4 million. He said to the best of his knowledge, the actual amount that had been paid out was only f80,000. As to why these arms were sent up to the North, Lt.-Col. Gowon referred to lack of storage facilities in Lagos and reminded his Military Colleagues of the number of times arms and ammunition had been dumped in the sea. This was why, he said, it became necessary to use the better storage facilities in Kaduna. The arms and ammunition had not been distributed because they arrived only two weeks previously and have not yet been taken on charge. After exhaustive discussion to which all members contributed and during which Lt.-Col. Ejoor pointed out that it would be necessary to determine what arms and ammunitions had arrived and what each unit of the Army had before any further distribution would take place, the Supreme Military Council unanimously adopted a Declaration proposed by Lt.-Col. Ojukwu, that all members:

a. renounce the use of force as a means of settling the Nigerian crisis; b. reaffirm their faith in discussions and negotiation as the only peaceful way of resolving the Nigerian crisis; and c. agree to exchange information on the quantity of arms and ammunition available in each unit of the Army in each Region and in the unallocated stores, and to share out such arms equitably to the various commands; d. agree that there should be no more importation of arms and ammunition until normalcy was restored.

I have seen nothing to suggest that Ejoor was somehow or for some reason opposed to relief for Midwestern Igbos prior to the outbreak of the war but if anyone can provide evidence actually proving that he was, I will completely and unreservedly admit that I was wrong on that account.

@ mpumalanga, Ejoor discussed financial compensation for 'displaced persons' from his region with the other smc members at Aburi but the implementation was cut short by the decree no.8 vs. Aburi wrangling between Gowon and the Eastern region so I don't know what you mean by him being against relief for displaced Midwestern Igbos:

15. The Council considered exhaustively the problems of displaced persons, with particular reference to their rehabilitation, employment and property. The view was expressed and generally accepted that the Federal Government ought to take the lead in establishing a National Body which will be responsible for raising and making appeal for funds. Lt.-Col. Ojukwu made the point, which was accepted by Lt.-Col. Katsina, that in the present situation, the intermingling of Easterners and Northerners was not feasible. After each Military Governor had discussed these problems as they affected his area, the Council agreed: a. On rehabilitation, that Finance Permanent Secretaries should resume their meeting within two weeks and submit recommendations and that each Region should send three representatives to the meeting. b. On employment and recovery of property, that civil servants and Corporation staff (including daily paid employees) who have not been absorbed should continue to be paid their full salaries until 31st March, 1967 provided they have not got alternative employment, and that the Military governors of the East, West and Mid-West should send representatives (Police Commissioners) to meet and discuss the problem of recovery of property left behind by displaced persons. Lt.-Col. Ejoor disclosed that the employment situation in his Region was so acute that he had no alternative but to ask no-Mid-Westerners working the private sector in his Region to quit and make room for Mid-Westerners repatriated from elsewhere. Lt.-Col. Ojukwu stated that he fully appreciated the problem faced by both the Military Governor, West, and the Military Governor, Mid-West, in this matter and that if in the last resort, either of them had to send the Easterners concerned back to the East, he would understand, much as the action would further complicate the resettlement problem in the East.

@ mpumalanga, what does Parry Osayande's bad promotion exercise ( you mean this right: http://www.vanguardngr.com/2012/02/promotion-of-digs-aigs-tears-police-apart/ ) have to do with the so called 'mind-set of the Midwest' at that time?

The Igbos had lots of mid level officers. Lower ranks were dominated by people from the north central and they were more numerous than the mid level officers. The explanation usually given about why the pogroms were not stopped once they were underway is that too few soldiers (the army was small) were spread too thinly across a large country and not enough could get there in time. There may be more to it than just that though.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bShcJmKDm3EC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&ots=ULLnC3vD_j&dq=gowon+decree+8+veto&output=html_text

Beaf, read this and you'll understand why Ojukwu rejected it. It was not about his ego/personality or Gowon's but the actual details/specifics.

If you believe that any sub unit of a country whether it's called a region, province, state, or whatever should be able to do whatever it wants without any subordination to a higher federal law - then you'll agree with Ojukwu. If not, then you automatically and necessarily agree with Gowon no matter how many concessions you think you're willing to make.

I think the problem here may have been the different patterns of social organization different groups are inclined toward, but that's just my theory.

ACM10: Get the book 'Gowon' by J. Isawa Elaigwu. There iz the second book, but I can't remember its title nor the authorz name.

Ok. Thanks for providing a source. On the 'no confederation has survived' statement it is mostly correct, but the Midwest would have gone along with whatever the other regions decided anyways, so the Midwest delegation's choice wouldn't matter anyway. If either decree 8 or Aburi had been implemented the nation would probably have disintegrated in a few years or months following military buildups in each region and disagreements over economic or political issues anyway. Oh well, paradise lost.

ACM10: I'm most disappointed with the bolded. Where do u get these version of history from?

He's saying (in his own way) that if decree 8 had been implemented, the posting of soldiers within a region would be at the discretion of the members of the supreme military council (which included Ojukwu), rather than at the whim of one or a few persons - because matters relating to the armed forces needed the approval of the members of the smc, which had representatives from each region and representatives from each branch of the military. There could not be an imposition of soldiers in a particular place except by consensus.

@ Acm, can you post a link to the part of the ad hoc conference where secession clauses were requested by the northern region?

The 'federal military government headed by abokis' and the 'supreme military council' referenced over and over again in that document are not the same thing at all. Ojukwu was by default automatically a member of the SMC. The federal government was entirely capable of declaring a state of emergency in a region without its consent prior to decree 8 or even the formation of the SMC and in fact did so. And what part of the Aburi accord allowed secession to make the forbidding of it by decree 8 any kind of volte-face?
Ojukwu said in his own words what his problem was with Gowon and with what Gowon decreed instead of the accord so we don't need to start spouting theories after the fact:
https://www.nairaland.com/812098/aburi-we-stand-distortion-accord

I never believed that the difference between aburi and decree 8 was significant enough to warrant so much as a full renegotiation (a few things could have been ironed out after further talks, but the main body of the decree did not need much amending), much less declare secession, but those that believed there was too much difference did what they thought was best for their people.

Beaf, some of those things in your list above cannot be accurate and I think you know this. There's no need to make things overly complex because things really aren't.

In the simplest terms, the non-Igbo Midwesterners did not want war with anybody but were not in a position where they could fully and totally actualize their desire to remain out of the conflict. All of this other crap is just a disgusting attempt to look for scapegoats. Someone else who posted earlier who must be senile or just plain dumb even tried to insinuate that the pre-invasion Midwest - a militarily insignificant region at the time - if they felt cheated by the Aburi accord not being implemented precisely as the East wanted, could have somehow leapt into the conflict fighting against Gowon without any prior support or planning. Nairaland must be eating away at what's left of some people's brains.

Alj harem, we agree that the modern Republic of Benin is not connected to the Benin kingdom except through indirect naming, but please don't hit people over the head with posts that are as riddled with errors or misconceptions sprinkled in beween truths as those posts that you're countering. It serves no purpose. Just let the thread fade out and don't ethnically polarize it further. Peace.

@iHustle, thanks for the link.
I have to disagree with the claim of that article though. There is a meaning for Dahomey in the Fon language: 'Dan' + 'homey' = Dan's belly. Although the meaning may seem somewhat strange in modern times, I do not think it would have been out of the ordinary back then and there are even more unique names for some places in historical kingdoms in Africa, so the story sounds more believable to me than the general Isidahome story. Accounts of the name i have read indicate that Dan means serpent (apparently Dan in this case indicates either a serpent god or the name of a king who was named after the serpent god he was believed to be descended from), so the name means in the heart or belly of the serpent/serpent king and is a reference to their religious beliefs.

Sometimes there are coincidences in appearance between words and names with different meanings in different languages. I believe this is one of those cases.

Hmmm. . .it's really only on NL that I've heard about any Edo or Edoid people perceiving Yorubas as being cowards and backstabbers/betrayers, but I guess I can only speak for and vouch for the people I've come into immediate contact with. Other people will doubtless have their own differing views, though I'd prefer it if they didn't pretend like they were speaking for entire groups when expressing their own views and opinions.

Pagan 9ja was mocking those people on here who like to claim that whatever ethnic group they belong to was descended from Hebrews, not mocking Ijaws. And his comment was hilarious if one is familiar with the kind of claims people post on here sometimes.

Alj harem, Isa Odidi is actually from Edo state, from a people called the Emai. He's a northerner by environment, not ancestry or heritage. He's really from a southern minority group but he married into Kano royalty. Just thought I should clear that up.

Shymmex, if you really think what you wrote was a totally reasonable or not emotionally compromised reaction to what I wrote about Ijebu and Benin and that it doesn't suggest some kind of grudge, then fine, but I can't say that I agree.
Just for the record, you, and not I, brought up the issue of conquest of Ijebu in that other thread. I never brought it up because I never made it a point on this forum to specifically focus too much or dwell too long on the conquest aspect of Benin's history, although I know that there are other Edo posters that may dwell on or over-emphasize that to the annoyance of other people. When you asked about Ijebu and Benin it did not read like you had that much emotional investment in what the answer was, so I gave you an honest answer. There are many things I am unsure of in this world, but what I wrote in answering your question is not really one of them. It was not about disrespecting your group or 'mouthing off', but just a straightforward answer about some of the sources (there are others) in which to seek information that would resolve your question. I hope it's clear that my response was not due to disrespect for your group or others. Once again, see you later.

There are Nigerians from other ethnic groups that win awards or gain recognition in what they do, but there is no point in highlighting them specifically because they are not Igbo or Yoruba. That would be purposeless.

The annoying thing is, in a few months time or maybe a year this same kind of topic will be repeated except perhaps in a different form and people on both sides may go to such extremes that I can never easily recuse myself from commenting on the topic. Anyway, I think I'll retire permanently from commenting on this type of topic.

The first half of this thread title may not be accurate. I also noticed that only a few years were taken into account.

shymmex: Benin sons are God's gift to Nigeria!!

https://www.nairaland.com/908378/survey-nigerians-most-educated-u.s/5#10546349
^^^
earlier

shymmex: I could care less about bini. . .
Edo can go phuck itself in the arse for all I care.

shymmex: Edo is irrelevant!!

^^^
this thread

Dude, you're getting too emotional. That's part of why I won't stick around threads like this too long. I hope you come to terms with whatever it is that's got you holding grudges against different Nigerian groups bro. Later.

@ cashmentor, Ayomide is not a Bini name by the way.

I said I would not respond to this thread again but the post above (by edicolove) is so off base and inaccurate that I must post a caveat that it is factually wrong on almost all counts except for the first few sentences of number 5, which correctly note that most of the Edoid groups do not speak Yoruba even as a second language, possibly number 3 to some extent (although even that is somewhat debateable), and probably also the statement about not being particularly interested in the idea of being in a future Yoruba republic.

I encourage everyone that is interested to actually read about African groups' histories in detail if or when they get free time so that they won't carry around and propagate erroneous perceptions. I cannot be bothered to write another really long post detailing why I disagree with the majority of edicolove's assessment, as I really feel that it may not be worth my time, but I must at least state my disagreement. By the way edicolove, what ethnicity do you identify as?

I don't think I should respond to this thread again because I don't think anything will be gained from it. I only came here to comment on what I see as some misconceptions, although others might disagree. Later.

Odenigbo Aroli: They dont have any form of writing and not even name of days: The only groups that had form of writings were Igbos(nsibidi) and hausa(songhay).

a) The Songhai are not and have never been Hausa.
b) Nsibidi was borrowed by Igbos from the Cross River/Akwa Ibom groups neighboring them, who used it perhaps as early as the 5th century AD. I won't bother to argue this point because it's known and there is no point in making this thread about Igbos.
c) The indigenous method of writing among the Edo was to use chalk (orhue) to make religious ideograms on the ground. Not advanced, sure, but more than can be said for a lot of groups. lol@ no days. Whatever. This thread isn't about other groups besides the ones mentioned in the title, so spare us the claiming.

Odenigbo Aroli, at no point was it ever claimed that Benin was the most populous or heavily populated West African kingdom or even claimed that it was more populous than some of its neighbors. In fact, a contemporary 17th century writer specifically noted that despite its widespread influence and power it was not particularly populous compared to some other states. By the way, you are not taking into account the effects of civil war, expansionist war and very probable precolonial emigration to new lands/absorption into other ethnic populations in your analysis.

By the way, the Songhai, who had an empire significantly larger than Benin's, were 'only' 4 and a half million as of 2010 (although I have read where they are credited with a population of 3 million or even less but i'll just go with an upper bound since it doesn't change my point). Try and think about things more rationally before jumping to conclusions.

The bight of Benin is indeed named directly after the Benin kingdom while the modern country of Dahomey was named after the bight.I do not know exactly how this association of Benin with precolonial Dahomey started but I suspect it has to with a) the fact that Benin's political influence did extend basically to the western border of Nigeria and possibly beyond it - and a French captain (Landolphe) stated that it extended even to Whydah, a rival kingdom to Dahomey, at one point (after Oyo conquered Dahomey which had earlier conquered Whydah) and b) the Edo name Isidahomwen, which was corrupted and became Isidahomen, Sidahome, etc. "Isi" refers to a foreign land so it was probably assumed that the name indicated Edo people that were previously in the foreign land of Dahomey. My own reading has led me to accept the more plausible claim that Isidahomwen was the name of the grandson of a certain Esan ruler, the Ojirrua of Irrua, as I've seen stated in a book by a Bini writer with a deep knowledge of the history and culture of the Edo. The proper association of Dahomey is with Oyo, which invaded and conquered it.

I don't understand how non-Edo or Edo people who have obviously read very little about precolonial African states besides the brief stuff on the internet or in books that give only a broad overview of all of precolonial Africa without going into detail can make assessments of what the standing of Benin was relative to other kingdoms. There is information out there - acquire it and study it with an open mind.

shymmex: The same bini had to pay the Ijesha warrior (can't remember his name) not to invade ibini.. Believe whatever pseudo-scholarship you want to believe, but bini NEVEr ruled over Ijebu..
If you guys ruled over us, we should have some bini words, and links - but we don't have any.. Maybe, you guys are confusing the itsekiris (who're mostly of ijebu descent) with us..

At no point did Benin appease or pay off Ogedengbe. This is a modern fairy tale which has no backing. I find it funny when he's mentioned in respect to war with Benin because the flipside of the fairy tale is interpreting him as somebody who got close to Benin after overruning some places in Afemai that Benin had long lost any political hold of and then chickened out at the thought of advancing nearer to Bini territory. He was still a great soldier though. As I said earlier, if you actually read the sources I mentioned, you would stop all this Ijebu vs. Bini stuff because the conclusion to be reached would be somewhat obvious and you would not claim not to have any Bini words. I have no interest in making this thread about the conquest of this or that group so I won't bother to go into detail because my attitude toward precolonial African imperialism is a little ambivalent.