₦airaland Forum

zykson:
Am from Kogi and an Okun person...
We're 100% Yorubas

Fair-enough. And what about Aworos? Subgroup of Okun?

Kogi State probably stands out more than any other Nigerian state in its own unique way. I know it borders 9 states (10 including Abuja/F.C. territory), represents the main kind of ethnic groups in the whole of Nigeria (the northern/Hausa-inclined, Yoruba and Igbo + the likes of Idoma) and that the main three tribes are Igala, Okun (a Yoruba subgroup) and Igbira/Ebira. Anyone know if the case of Okun is similar to Ika/Ukwuani/Ikwerre (mere subgroups of an overarching tribe who have dissociated and don’t see themselves as Yoruba or Igbo) and what’s the case of Igala people speaking Yoruba in addition to their Yoruboid language, etc.?

ezeagu:
I didn't drag you into anything, I was showing you something. You didn't have to comment.

My bad. I can't speak for Owerre so I'll have to agree with you.

ezeagu:
I've been telling people this and they've been doubting me.

See: https://www.nairaland.com/3484784/real-originator-these-popular-words/4#51990394

Probz

Was there any need to drag my name into this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTPWEKB77xE

cc. bigfrancis, I somehow stumbled across the above story in the Izzi language. I can see the general Anambra trend of replacing r/n with l (Chileke instead of Chineke, although that's not what we use in Anambra) but the intonation sounds Idoma or something.

What Chysler said.

Paziena, jisie ike. I started this thread with the aim of being educated and that's exactly what bigfrancis and yourself have done (and others).

Dhugal:
I'm really starting to believe you're not Igbo as you claimed.
Pray tell,how did that Ika video sound alien to you?.
Even the Benin guy agree it's intelligible, but try to lay that on Otolokpo being close to Enuani.

Believe what you want.

There's mutual intelligibility but the intonation makes it sound foreign. I didn't say it's not Igbo, it just doesn't sound it.

Afam4eva:
Pashi = dowe ya = keep
Iyon = That thing
Ebomu = There

Pashi iyom ebomu = Keep that thing there

In which universe does this sound Igbo?

\

No universe on this side of the galaxy. It reads more Calabar than Igbo

Afam4eva:
Yeah, Udi is more similar to Anambra dialects. My part of wawa is not even as deep as the one you find when you go to places like Akpugo etc.

Pashi iyom ebomu

What can tell me what i wrote above.

I can't tell you jack. Wanna put me out of my misery?

[code][/code]

bigfrancis21:
This is Ogba dialect of Rivers State. The cultural beats and dance style look very mainstream Igbo. The dialect too in pronunciation doesn't sound foreign.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU02-Nv7S9E

I'm sure I've read that there's Ogba communities in Imo as well as Rivers state and that doesn't surprise me given how mainline their dialect sounds (and cultural display looks).

Ogba and Ikwerre are still classed as Igboid somehow.

That's actually the other half of this thread (Rivers Igbos). What's the history behind Bonny-Opobo and Igbo-Ijaw interplay in those areas?

Afam4eva:
I'm actually WAWA and our dialect is not that bad. You have to understand that Enugu do what Anambra people do. Most Enugu people will speak impecable central Igbo to you even more than Anambra peeps. Rarely will you come across an Nkanu person that will speak their Nkanu dialect when taking to another Igbo person. This is not the case with people from Abia and Imo. An owerri person will always converse with you in Owerri dialect whether or not you understand it. Same with Ngwa people.

I know re. Wawa. It's mostly the Nsukka and deep Nkanu dialects that give Wawa a bad name on the linguistic front. I dunno for Oji River and Ezeagu but Udi's not that divergent from general Anambra Igbo.

bigfrancis21:
I won't lie, some of my people do this and you won't blame us nau... ...our respective dialects are often very easy to speak and understand by every Igbo speaker such that some people think we speak 'central igbo' because it is easily understood by everyone. Back in the day up till the 90s Onicha used to be the spoken 'central Igbo' sort of.

As do mine. I hail from Anambra myself.

I've noticed that not all of Ebonyi speaks alien Igbo, though. That's more of a thing with the Abakaliki axis (Izzi-Ikwo-Ezza). I know people from Afikpo (Edda) and their dialects are more related to Abiriba, Aro, and other Eastern Igbo dialects than northern Ebonyi dialects and anyone with 'an ear for southern dialects' would find that easier to sabi since Afikpo used to be in Abia.

Afam4eva:
I'm not really exposed to southern Igbo dialect and that is why when i found myself in Egbema in Imo state, i was like, what sort of Igbo dialect is this that is so hard to understand. Few months later, i could understand Egbema dialect perfectly save for a few words here and there. What i just needed to do was to understand the base upon which the dialect was built on and hearing it now, it doesn't sound strange at all.

I think it's not enough to grow up in Igboland, you have to be exposed to atleast the two branches of Igbo dialects (Northern and southern). I've noticed that a lot of people from the Anambra and Enugu axis of Igboland always look down at the dialects spoken in Imo,Abia and Rivers state. That is because they're not really exposed to those dialects.

It's mostly Anambra people that do this. Enugu people aren't in any position to look down on other dialects with the Wawa they speak.

Afam4eva:
The emboldened is the greatest mistake people often make when the issue of Igboness is discussed. There's a clear line between popular Igbo culture and Igbo culture (which is not homogenous and varies from place to place). That we don't say IGBO KWENU or wear the red cap in my place doesn't make us less Igbo. Some of these cultures are borrowed from other Igbo groups to align with the center but it doesn't mean that they have always been like that historically.

Now to the language issue, it's very convenient to pick a dialect of your chic and then compare it with Ika in order to buttress a held bias. Can you do us a favour and do the same thing for EZZA and IZZI in comparison to Ika, let's see if the story will remain the same.

I've already talked about Izzi and Ezza. Most mainstream Igbos can barely decipher more than a quarter of northern Ebonyi dialects (Abakaliki axis) and I'm no exception. I can decipher the southern ones a little more but not upland.

I'm past the stage of debating whether Ika and Ukwuani are linguistically Igbo or Igboid. The whole point of this thread was me understanding the history behind Delta Igbo and this thread's genuinely opened my eyes. Doesn't mean it sounds mainstream Igbo to me, which you'll notice was my choice of words. The intonation's clearly foreign even if the vocabulary's the same.

gerg:
I admitted Abiriba and Ezza are very deep and difficult for other Igbos to understand, but they are much more closer to the Central Igbo than Ika. They both sound Igbo. Ika sound completely different. Doesn't sound like Igbo at all.

Yup, I agree.

cc.bigfrancis21

I've been reading your earlier post and it's genuinely made me consider the thing from a wholly different point of view re. Ikas and Ukwuanis. How much of Ika do you understand relative to some of the more concentrated southeastern dialects (Waawa, Izzi-Ezza-Mgbo-Ikwo cluster, Edda, Aro, Ohafia, Abiriba)? The intonation if nothing else is what throws me when it comes to Ika (and to a lesser extent Ukwuani).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTeyLw6gKxE

The individual lexicon's a little different from more mainstream Igbo dialects but it still sounds 100% Igbo even if the Cross Riverian/Ibibio influence is there.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ltIzwR03ks

You can hear a lot of Igbo words in this Ika clip but it's hard (for me at least) to make out the bulk of it by the inflection if nothing else. It doesn't sound like Igbo (I won't dispute that it's an Igbo language though).

Random bump but I found this re. the word 'oyibo.'

"However, the Igbo rulers quite unlike the Europeans of today would not impose contraception and abortion on the white population because it would violate the Igbo pro-life culture. They sought for a solution, that will allow inter-marriages betwen Igbos and whites, so a new population of mixed-race people were born and were called o yii Igbo, meaning 'they look like Igbos', which to this day is incorrectly called oyibo."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=594cCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT194&dq=igbo+oyibo+western&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=igbo%20oyibo%20western&f=false

It also gives an interesting etymology re. bekee (bia i ke, 'he has come to divide'), which we Igbos are often told (clearly incorrectly) derives from William Baike's surname (I also found out bekee's been in usage since before he was even born, so Baike-bekee's out of the window).

Whipped up this mean batch of dodo earlier today.

We all know how flawed the national Nigerian statistics are re. majority tribes and their respective populations, so who do you think is the biggest of the three major clans - Hausa, Igbo or Yoruba?

Cire80:
I've always admitted that Igbo name and Igbo language has been existing in Ika land for a few centuries which suggests there must have been some unrecorded Igbo migration into Ika land. My problem with you guys is making bogus speculations and going to the extent of fabricating and concocting non existing history. We Ika people know our history. You don't come to our land and tell us we're settlers and should vacate our ancestral land. This is the height of insolence. This attitude is the reason Igbo is hated today by every other groups

Back to your question. The percentage of Igbo names and words in Ika is very minimal. It not up to 20% about 3 centuries ago. There are many factors responsible for the encroachment of Igbo language into Ika and one of them is the Colonial masters and Christianity. The Colonial masters imposed Igbo on us - Even the Edos said Igbo and Yoruba was imposed on them though I don't know how it happened. Our ancestors were thought Igbo and Igbo language was used in churches and courts and many other places. Many people today can't pray in Ika language except in Igbo language. Even I can't say "Our Lord's Prayer" in Ika because I was thought that in Igbo. Churches like Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, even Cherubim and many other churches do all their recitals in Igbo and it's the norm to try to pray in Igbo language. Igbo was like the Latin of Ika churches still existing till date.

Another factor is the population of Igbo speakers. Igbos are existing in 5 States and these 5States States have little amount of non Igbos in them. The Igbo States are mostly populated by Igbo people which shows the Igbos have always had a very high population. Inspite of Igbos populating 5 States, there is no where you go to without seeing a high number of Igbos. You guys are everywhere. Some years back when I was in Abuja, I sometimes wonder if Abuja is turning into Igbo land. All the taxi, molue and even El rufai drivers are Igbo. Wherever you go to, they speak Igbo to you as if it's the new lingua franca of Nigeria. If you reply in English, you see a great shock on their face. Same thing with Lagos. Even outside of Nigeria, Igbos are everywhere in large numbers.

And wherever Igbos are large number, they invade and occupy and make that place their home. No intention of going back home. After that, they start looking for ways to rename the place and Igbonize it. If they see for instance, a place called Ife for instance, they wouldn't call it Ife but they will call it a name like Ifeyinwa, and concoct a story of how a certain Ifeyinwa is the founder of that place. And if Igbos are there in large numbers or if this place is close to Igboland, this name and story will stuck wiping away the original name and history. They also do this for people's name and words. I'm talking from experience and observations.

Another way Igbos influence others is the media including movies, and music (especially gospel music) and other means. I can go on and on.

I won't bash any of that but what are you on about re. the latter? I'm no IPOB but feel free to go on and on. I'm listening.

Monkeydeychop:
Your biafran brothers desperately falsifying my history to accomodate themselves. Ozuo

You're trying a little too hard, fam. No self-respecting Igbo would claim Esan nor have I ever seen that happening. Sure you're not trolling?

And who said they were?

bigfrancis21:
Sorry I did not see the thread. Lately I just breeze in here to read some threads and i'm out immediately.

I may not be able to tell accurately what may have occurred in the past but I can only 'guestimate' what may have happened. In my opinion, the Ika and Ukwuani are an Igbo aboriginal stock or original settlers in their areas with later migrations of settlers into the areas from the bini kingdom during its peak (many people fled this kingdom during its hey days including the Esan people and some other edoid groups), especially in the Ika area. The presence of families retaining Bini surnames in Ika land is evidence of this. However, the natives or aboriginals may have been an Igbo group that absorbed later migrations from the Bini-speaking areas. In the past, a lot of migrations occurred and people often crossed linguistic territories into new areas, settling there and adapting culturally and linguistically. In terms of numbers, the bini settlers may not have been more than the Igbo-speaking natives overall and I am sure that if DNA test is performed, it would show the ratio of Igbo vs Bini in terms of Ika ancestry. By being located very close to the Bini kingdom, Ika land was often a receiving 'port' sort of for many fleeing Bini kingdom. It also experienced substantial Bini influence in terms of Kingship style, which would be expected as two different linguistic towns living next to each other often influence the other in several subtle ways. The Binis currently use the Igbo 4 market day week system and it is Nri influence which may have gotten to Bini land through Ika town. Thus, in my opinion Ikas are an ancient Igbo bunch which assimilated several Edoid-speaking families and also influenced by Bini culture by its close proximity to Bini kingdom. This is also confirmed by the history of Ika book by an Ika elder. http://people.bu.edu/manfredi/Iduuwe.History.pdf

Ukwuani land is located close to Edo state also but further south and by its close proximity to Edoid areas assimilated several Edoid-speaking people. However, it experienced less Bini cultural influence compared to the Ika area. My opinion here also is that they are an Igbo aboriginal group with fewer Bini assimilation compared to Ika land.

You've missed a whole seven pages of Nairaland debate, bro. Go check it out. https://www.nairaland.com/3539543/delta-rivers-igbos/5

Nice one for the reply. There's a lot to consider but I'll look at it in more detail later.

bigfrancis21:
I understood many of what was said. Honestly at first glance, Ika is basic igbo dialect spoken with edoid pronunciations/inflections. This is possible given that many edoid families and those fleeing the bini empire in the past settled in Ika land several centuries ago. Part of this settlement was cultural acculturation into the environment and learning the language, and for first/initial speakers pronouncing Ika words with edoid inflections would be expected, which over time gave birth to a generation of people speaking Ika with edoid inflections. Another possible bini influence on Ika is the replacement of 'ch' with 'k' which is clearly heard when the singer said 'eki ri ime'. However, the basics or the structure of the dialect resembles closely other igbo dialects than bini.

Also, these bini settlers in Ika came with several bini words which were fused into Ika however in recent times Ika dialect generally is dropping off bini words for certain items and adopting or rather 're-adopting' the Igbo equivalents instead.

Ali onye wu ndua...ala onye bu ndu ya? I'm guessing?

I started a thread re. Ika/Ukwuani and was hoping for and expecting your input. What's your opinion on Ika and Ukwuani people re. language and traditional culture? Igbo or not?

Get well soon my nigga.

I rep Agukwu Nri na Awka.

MizMyColi:
Sorry o o
Please, are you a Nigerian?

It doesn't have to be 100% authentic Naija food day in, day out. His bad for not rocking up ugba and okporoko.

ariesbull:
Benin boy are you still here

I'm from Anambra and I'm a proud Igbo dude, nigga. I just don't have an agenda to push and I can put aside tribal sentiments when talking about related groups.

Take time.

Igboid:
Where is your proof that they are intelligible other than parading the Yoruboid ish around?

I have Igala colleagues and they don't understand Yoruba.

Couldn't care less about your colleagues. Oid languages aren't classed that way for nothing whether you accept that or not.

Most Igbos can't understand the Izzi-Ezza-Mgbo-Ikwo dialect cluster of Ebonyi or the Wawa of rural Enugu state but that doesn't mean they're not dialects of Igbo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ctUQlfw8Cw

Listen to that and go ahead and try and ignore the obvious Yoruba accent and intonation.

"Igala and Yoruba have important historical and cultural relationships. The languages of the two ethnic groups bear such a close resemblance that researchers such as Forde (1951) and Westermann and Bryan (1952) regarded Igala as a dialect of Yoruba."

"Other comparative works aimed at investigating the language status of Igala (directly and indirectly) are Omamor (1967) and Williamson (1973). In fact, Williamson is the originator of the label ‘Yoruboid’ for the group of languages comprising Yoruba, Isekiri and Igala for the purpose of distinguishing “between Yoruba as a language on the one hand, and Yoruba, Isekiri and Igala as a genetic group on the other”. (Akinkugbe 1976:1) Akinkugbe refers to the proto- language of the group as Proto-Yoruboid in 1976 and Proto-Yoruba-Isekiri-Igala (PYIG) in 1978"

There might be some Nupe, Idoma and definitely some Igbo fused in but overall it's an indisputably Yoruboid language and sounds more Yoruba than anything else.

Igboid:
Could care less whether Igala is classified Yoruboid or Islamoid/Hausa-Fulanoid.
The point I made is that Igala and Yoruba are not mutually intelligible and that pre knowledge of Igala helping someone learn Yoruba faster is as inconsequential as pre knowledge of Legbo helping the Legbo woman I met learning Igbo faster.

It's not really since one has linguistic affinity with the parent language and the other doesn't. Where's your "proof" that supports Igala not being intelligible with Yoruba?

Igboid:
Are you alright at all? Grab the nearest thermometer and check your training your temperature ASAP.

Igala is not mutually intelligible with Yoruba.
I once met an Abi woman from Igbo-Ekureku in Cross river state, her language is supposed to be Legbo, an Ekoid language, but she told me that it's easy for a Legbo speaker to understand Igbo. She had only stayed a year in Aba, but was speaking Igbo fluently.

You have no point.

The difference is Legbo isn't classed as an Igboid language whereas Igala is a Yoruboid language. Deny it all you want if that's what makes you feel better but the facts are there. Igala and Itsekiri are Yoruboid.

I know a lot of people like to think of Igala as a bridging point between Igbo and Yoruba but it sounds more Yoruba than Igbo (minus the extreme southern Igala / Anambra/Enugu fringes) and is rightly classed as a Yoruboid language. Some IPOB who's likely never been affiliated with the SW or Igala can't deny that just because you have an Igbo agenda to push.

That last bit's nonsense, Igboid, and you know it. I'm a full-blooded Anambrarian on both sides but my mum was born in Kogi and says that hearing and speaking the little Igala she did made it much easier for her to pick up Yoruba (in Lagos).

Igala's classed as a Yoruboid language and I've read that it has 60% mutual intelligibility with Yoruba. I'm not denying Itsekiri has greater linguistic affinity with Yoruba (that's reflected even in their names) but you sound pathetic by trying to discredit Igala as a Yoruboid language when we all know it is. What exactly are you trying to prove?