₦airaland Forum

If Ogiso is just a myth, how come stories of Ogiso are very widely known? Ogiso is ackowledged in far away Urhobo. And even in my axis in Anioma, the Ika people are conversant with Ogiso. We will be fooling ourselves to think the story has no historical basis.

Archaeological work done on the Benin earthworks shows that they began before 12th and the 13th century when the Eweka dynasty started. This shows that the work of political centralization had begun in Benin before the time of Oba Eweka. And this fits with the tradition of a pre-Eweka dynasty in Benin, i.e., the Ogisos.

UncleSnr:
If you have others, add them and their YouTube channel/video, you don't just open your mouth and spew trash because you feel you want to make a point.

Leave him. I know him and I know why he's pained. He's an Anambra supremacist. He's pained that the OP mentioned only one Anambra ogene player. Ngwanu, help us and add more Anambra ogene players, he can't. Because he doesn't know any.

UncleSnr:
Udubonch don't use ogene, if I am right.

Oh, yea. Now that I've thought about it, their music doesn't exactly fit into the ogene genre.

Juliusmalema:
Maybe not that it is true.

Okay. I happen to know far more ogene musicians from Enugu State than from any other state. Maybe you should provide a list of non-Enugu ndi egwu ogene that have made an impact of equal magnitude.

Juliusmalema:
how does this transcend to ogene musician in igboland?

You listed ogene musicians in Enugu and dubbed it igboland as cover up..

The title should be the best Ogene musicians in Enugu state.

Maybe because Enugu musicians easily dominate that genre.

Udubonch deserves a place on this list.

It's a family heirloom. Do you really have to sell it?

Who is the traditional ruler of Sokoto then? Tell us who should stand in for Sokoto in a meeting of traditional rulers from the north, since the Sultan is not a king.

By the way, your analogy with Christians and Abuja is (for the purpose of keeping this conversation civil) ludicrous.

And to reiterate: a spiritual leader can be a king or a monarch.

The pope is the religious leader of Catholics worldwide. But in the middle ages he was also a king, a monarch, a ruling prince (whichever designation you prefer), ruling over his own sovereign entity known as the Papal States. The Sultan ruled over Sokoto, therefore, he was a king (an emperor, even), his religious/spiritual role notwithstanding.

You are not making any sense.

The fact that there were people and kingdoms in Northern Nigeria before the advent of Islam does not mean the Islamic Sultan cannot rightly be seen as a king. There is no sense at all in the argument you are trying to make there. How does it even make sense in your head?

Also the position of the sultan as a spiritual leader of muslims does not mean he is not a king. Many kings throughout history had dual roles as both spiritual and temporal leaders. The caliphs of old were also spiritual leaders, as well as kings. All the divine kings that have existed throughout history also doubled as spiritual leaders. Your argument there also falls completely flat.

Unless you can demonstrate that there are clear differences in the role of the Sultan in the politics of Sokoto, viz-a-viz the role of the Emir in Kano or the role of the Oba in Benin, you should just drop this entire argument, 'cause e no get head.

Etrusen:
he is not a king as long as it concern the traditional activities in Nigeria

he just make his way to become known as a traditional king but instead he is originally an Islamic priest and there are prove that there were kings in the northern part of Nigeria even before the coming of Islam to Nigeria

please anyone do well to prove me wrong

"he is originally an Islamic priest." Technically there are no priests in Islam.

"there are prove that thete were kings in the northern part of Nigeria even before the coming of Islam to Nigeria." So how does the existence of pre-Islamic kingdoms in the north now mean that the Sultan is not a king?

If the British wanted to destroy all evidence that the people built pyramids, why would they document them and take photos of them first, before blowing them up?

Structures made of mud deterioriate quickly in the humid rainforest, if they're not maintained. The more people turned to Christianity and Western education, the less number of interested young people were available to maintain the pyramids which were associated with 'paganism'.

Etrusen:
please sorry to stress you but please was Onitsha monarchical system influenced by Benin empire yes or no?

Yes, it was. But it was also influenced by Igala and by Nri.

I'm going to post pictures of 19th century kings of Bonny wearing European suits and use it as evidence that the kings of Bonny came from Europe, since influence = origin.

Etrusen:
truthfully speaking I thought of it too at some point so thanks for the correction for that drowning in Lagos lagoon.

but for that of Ehengbuda being hermaphrodite its becoming obvious that it is difficult for you to believe things except the ones you have known

I don't understand what you mean by this bolded. I was only raising a question based on what I read from Egharevba. I wasn't telling you Ehengbuda was or was not hermaphrodite. It's not my history to tell. My comment was phrased in form of a question.

Etrusen:
then how did he get Ada and Eben sword if he has nothing to be with Benin

Please, where did I say he had nothing to do with Benin? Did you not see where I said all Anioma kingdoms were influenced from Benin?

I don't know why people here seem to have a hard time differentiating between influence and ancestry.

Even in the east, some chiefs are beginning to carry eben-like paraphernalia due to influence and proximity to places like Onitsha where the obi had eben (abani, as they call it in Onitsha), not because those chiefs are of Benin origin.

This post says Orhogbua drowned in a lagoon, but all the history books I've read say it was his son Ehengbuda that drowned in the lagoon.

Egharevba also didn't say Ehengbuda was a hermaphrodite, but he implied that Ehengbuda's son Ohuan had some feminine traits.

Why these discrepancies?

ewa26:
ukerifinomeneba RedboneSmith I will like to cook you smoky hot osi ited jollof rice an bring it to ahaba and leave with you ok There enough meat and drink in the two other coolers ok, do I get you vodka or gin for afters?

If this is trolling, you're not even doing it right. You're just being weird.

gregyboy:
Is an igbo person correct but the royal stool later became occupied by edos

The royal stool of Ubulu-Uku did not later become occupied by Edos. You people should write what you know na. Hian.

Etrusen:
please understand one thing please that the founder and it citizens may have been connected to Igbo but the king is and Edo blood and as you know every tribe is view through their king. that's What am trying to explain but again please make your research if you can go to your palace please do because your said you are from there.

But before I leave you please take no offense in what am going to say but its true that 97% if not 99% of kings in Delta state is influenced by Benin empire please research if you so which.

The king in Ubulu-Uku is NOT of Edo blood. There are many kings in Anioma that are of Edo blood, but the Obi of Ubulu-Uku is NOT one of them. The Obi of Ubulu-Uku descends from Ezemu, the founder of the town, who came from Afor.

Yes, Ubulu-Uku and every other kingdom in Anioma has been influenced by Benin. But being influenced by Benin, and coming from Benin are not the same thing. The Obi of Ubulu-Uku and the Obi of Ogwashi-Uku are some of the prominent obis of Anioma that do not claim Edo origin.

Note that there are people and quarters in both towns that trace their ancestry to Benin, but not the royal line. The royal line in Ubulu-Uku came from Afor, while that of Ogwashi-Uku came from Nri in the east.

The founder of Ubulu-Uku, a herbalist/hunter named Ezemu came from Afor in Ndokwa, and not from Benin.

Etrusen:
please make your research I can't argue at all.
simply ask for the origin of the obi of Obuluku

I am from that general area and I know the history. You obviously are not from the area and know little of the history. Otherwise you would have known that the Obaseki family connection is with Nsukwa and not Ubulu-Uku.

Etrusen:
Mr man the great grand father of obaseki is chief Agho who was the great great grand son of the obi of Obuluku in Delta state and the obi of Obuluku is a direct son of Oba Ehengbuda of Benin so does the show you obaseki true lineage before you start confusing people.

in fact the Obi of Obuluku was the one who killed the daughter of the Ezomo of Benin name Adesuwa which then result to war between Benin and Obuluku during the reign of Oba Akengbuda
and the war brought about the legendary Agboghidi N ugo to fame

please research properly before confusing people please.

Obaseki's ancestors were from Nsukwa, not Ubulu-Uku. Ubulu-Uku royalty do not trace their descent from Benin.

AreaFada2:
Their madness don start again. Who let these people out of Aro?

I rank highly only the following Obas after Oba of Benin: Oba of Lagos, Olowo of Owo, Olu of Warri, Obi of Agbor and Obi of Onitsha,

Lol. So the only traditional rulers you rate are the ones with connections to Benin. Such Edocentrism.

Takeproft:
Oko means friend in Ika language. Going with your explanation, his name means friend of Owa

I've always known friend in Ika to be Osi. Are you Ika?

Eastlink:
Nowhere in Iboland weaved the Akwa until the Ndokki came into the picture. The Aro’s interacted with the Ndoki and Ubani. It was from that interaction that the Akwaete was taken into the hinterlands. Akwaocha is weaven in the same mold of Akwete. Anything you want to call it, you can call, the Ndokki were the originators of any weaved Ibo native wears. However, today that method of weaving have been replaced by the ncontemporary wax George fabrics. And the Aro, by nature of their travels ferried those cloths to the other parts of Iboland.

"Nowhere in Iboland weaved the akwa unitl Ndokkk came into the picture."

Lol. This is a big lie. You don't know anything about Igbo history.

Eastlink:
No Nri that had no cloth on until Aro middlemen introduce Akwaocha to you. Where in Nri was Akwaocha woven? Ndokki were the first to weave Akwa ete cloths which the Aro middlemen carried to as far as Nsukka. Pictures of Nri naked chiefs are scattered in the internet. Where did you see Aro naked people?

Aro may have sold slaves but her impact in Igboland far out weight Nri! Sorry, but Nri are just local champions with no relevance. Aro stood as men and transversed all part of Igboland down to Cameroon. Had dynasty in Kalabari, Okrika, Calabar, Ikwerre etc and brought a lot of economic and cultural Influence on Iboland.

Achebe in his things fall apart talk a lot about Abam. Even when Okonkwo was banished to his maternal home in Mbanta, we saw a lot of cultural influence you guys are trying to downplay or dash to Nri. Aro may be young but they at least met an existing Ibo culture which they advanced. But Nri another clan with suspicious origin want to tell us how they created the Ibo culture. Something the Aro okigbo hardly do. Imagine the conconbility. Make una carry chair go siddon one place.

We saw the Osu and Diala caste, we saw the reference to Ani, earth goddess, to Chukwu, and to Amadioha. We saw the sacred phython, the New Yam festival, tbe wrestling, the headhunting wars, the Nso ani, and a lot of cultures that had no bearing to Nri.

Idemili people had their culture spelt by Achebe. Owerri saw theirs through the Mbari homes, Awka saw their through Agbala shrine. Yet, Achebe didn't reveal the over hyped Nri. The much announced Ichi facial mark was not even mentioned. Nze na Ozo that you want to dash Nri was a general Ibo culture and never Nri! Who dash Nri Nze na Ozo? Who dash Nri Ofo na Ogu? Who dash Nri four market days? Stop claiming general Ibo cultures as yours. You can stick to your Afa or anything your brothers in Aguleri practice but stop claiming ownership of Ibo culture. How can you claim Father to Ndibo when you're just a child.

Rewind back to Okonkwo's home town in Umuofia. We could see the famous Agbala shrine of the Awka people. We saw Ogbanje, we saw Chief priest and Priestess. There was nothing Nri in Okonkwo's things fall apart. And all these were written even before the fake Nri tales began flaring up. All of which began after the civil war. Partly by Onwejeogwu and Isichei etc. I would believe Achebe's well research novel than the trash written by Delta Ibo historians.

What is this thing you wrote? What is the connection between Aro and Akwaocha?

TAO11:
Actually Thurstan Shaw himself upheld the scholarly disclaimers and leaned towards a much later date.

I will quote you such summary from one of his works shortly.
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Modified:
To quote Professor Thurstan Shaw word-for-word where he sums up in a subsequent work (published three years after B. Lawal, 1972’s) and concludes as follows:

“SUMMARY
In the discussion of the reliance which should be placed on the Igbo-Ukwu radiocarbon dates, it is necessary to make certain that what evidence we have is correctly used. The precise locations of the samples used for dating are recalled and possible sources of error discussed. Consideration is given to the arguments for a date later than that suggested by the radiocarbon dates, stemming from the state of preservation of the textiles, the character of the beads, the pottery evidence, analogies with the presumed dating of Ife and Benin, the quantity and the source of the copper, and what is known of pre-European trading patterns in West Africa. The latter is probably the most serious objection to a very early date, but the question will only be settled with the acquisition of more archaeological evidence.”

~ Thurstan Shaw, “Those Igbo-Ukwu Radiocarbon Dates: Facts, Fictions and Probabilities”, The Journal of African History, Vol. 16, No. 4, (1975), p.517.

The entire paper that Shaw put out following Lawal's objections gives a fuller context. Shaw was indeed in favour of more archeological work being done on the sites, but no where in the paper does he reject the radiocarbon dates he obtained (except for the so-called 'odd man out' of the fifteenth century) . In this same paper you quoted, Shaw reviews his data, and still came to the conclusion that, "the balance of probability seems to favour the eighth-to-eleventh century range." [page 507].

Five years later (in 1980), he contributed a chapter to the book "Groundwork of Nigerian history" in which it was clear he still favoured the dates he had published in the 1970s.

In 1997 he co-authored a paper in which he again reviewed his dates and wrote:

"The dating of the site has been the subject of some debate. Originally five radiocarbon dates were obtained, four from the ninth century AD (one from the wooden stool in the burial chamber, three from the disposal pit) and one anomalous date from the fifteenth century AD (disposal pit). Some years later three further dates were obtained, announced as thirteenth century for wood from the stool in the burial chamber, and two dates of the tenth and eleventh centuries from charcoal in the disposal pit (Shaw, 1995a; McIntosh and McIntosh, 1986, p. 433). These were subsequently corrected by the processing laboratory to the eleventh century for the wooden stool and eighth and ninth centuries for the charcoal (Bowman et al., 1990; Shaw, 1995b)

[from the paper, "Gao and Igbo-Ukwu: Beads, Interregional Trade, and Beyond" by Timothy Insoll and Thurstan Shaw. African Archaeological Review Vol 14 No 1 (published 1997)

So at the end of the 1990s, Shaw was still propounding a ninth-eleventh century range as in the 1970s. Other mainstream scholars of today (Sutton, Craddock, etc) still put the Igbo-Ukwu dates within that range. Apparently not much has changed in that regard since the first dates were published in 1970.

TAO11:
Thank you very much. I just liked and shared that.

Is there are a reference I could cite for this being Igbo-Ukwu, in case I’m asked for evidence?

Pictures of the piece appear in Thurstan Shaw's two-volume work. "Unearthing Igbo-Ukwu: Account of Archaeological Excavation in Eastern Nigeria."

TAO11:
Actually Thurstan Shaw him self upheld the disclaimers and leaned towards a much later date.

I will quote you such summary from one of his works shortly:

Okay. I will wait.

Oh, about the Igbo Ukwu mounted horseman.