₦airaland Forum

Dhugal:
Stands firm,Is unshaken,Exists...............
You started the nit picking, he just helped you out

Dia = Stand firm.

Di ya = Is, exists.

That's why I said a little stretched. Emphasis on 'little'. It isn't an exact fit. Of course, you closed your eyes to the "little" because you love to go back and forth.

And the other guy jumped on 'Is there' which I actually only placed beside 'exist' for clarity because he too loves to go back and forth.

bigfrancis21:
@bold...that is overstretching by you the simple meaning of the statement in Igbo. O di ya...simply means it exists, and not 'is there'. You claim to speak Igbo, isn't 'is there' supposed to be 'di ebe ahu'? Does Ogbemudia look like Ogbemudiaebeahu to you or what?

And you'll be the first to jump in to correct something when you only have superficial understanding of ancient Igbo customs and culture. Foh

Really? 'Exists, Is there'. Is this nonsense nit-picking because you wish to have the last word?

Oya, I give you. Take.

Dhugal:
You do realize Ogbemudia mean same thing in Igbo too,don't you?.
Ogbe mu di a/ya.

Not relevant. The point is it is not the same expression as Ogbe nmu dein. And the relation with Ogbe mu di ya (my district exists/is there) is a little stretched.

[s]

pazienza:
Bla bla bla. Move along. You don't denigrate the great Igbo nation just for fun, you can only do so when you are not Igbo or when you have amphoteric ethnicity.

[/s]

*yawns* Still smarting, yea? Me and my 'Igala' Deltans will be hanging out at Cable Point tomorrow evening. Coman drive us out.

pazienza:
"Despite being smaller, their cultural impact in the
New Word is DOMINANT. Yorubas are the single
most culturally influential ethnic group in the Black
Diaspora. By contrast, the Igbo who were sold in
much larger numbers are almost culturally invisible
in the New World. This is a clear indicator of who
among the two had a more advanced, impactful
culture".

https://www.nairaland.com/3580290/comparing-slave-numbers-bight-benin/1

Imagine this unrepentant confused amphoteric Igala- Igbo man talking about someone scattering Igbo unity, like he knows the meaning of Igbo unity.

Chimoo!

I am happy that that comment is still paining you. That was my intent. The OP, bigfrancis, was actually the person I was trying to upset, but since you're the one that seems to be catching all the feelings, you are also welcome.

Since you people think silly and disgraceful topics such as slave numbers are what matter to us today, I also decided to drop silly and disgraceful comments on that thread, let us all be disgracing ourselves. For God's sakes, who prides himself in the fact that his ancestors were slaves, and makes thread after thread revelling in that?

Anyway, you have to be sillier than I thought not to recognise I was trolling you and Francis on that thread.

Eke40seven:
Is it correct to say that you are ethnically, Igala but politically Anioma (since its a political construct coined from an Igbo language)? Just like we have people who are ethnically German but politically, Italians (in the case of South Tirol) and Switzerland (Northern Switzerland)

I have said before on this forum that I identify personally as Igbo, and have been active in pro-Igbo organizations both online and offline. Note that I say "personally". I am in no position to speak for everyone in Anioma.

But I guess identifying as Igbo isn't enough for fanatical nationalists like Pazienza who want me to also reject the Igala origins of my community, and seek every opportunity to call me 'Igbophobe' and 'Igala settler'. If 'Igbo' unity never happens we only have fanatical nationalists to blame for it.

And no, we are not ethnically Igala. Not any more.

[s]

pazienza:
No. You are an Igala settler in Enu-ani town called Illah. You are not an Ika.

Your familiar territory should be Igala or Illah, going by your logic.

The last time I checked, there is no ethnic group recognized as Anioma within or outside Nigeria.

[/s]

You are bored. Anioma is a well-organised constituted socio-cultural grouping, and we regard each other as kin. If it pains you come and jump on my back.

I am also waiting for you to come from Ogidi and drive me and other Illah indigenes, including the Obi Ogbelani out of Oshimili and back to Igala.

[s]

pazienza:
Why don't you remain in your Igala familiar territory, using same logic.

You are not Ika, the last time I checked.

[/s]

I am Anioma. The whole Anioma area is familiar territory to me.

bigfrancis21:
Well this is partially correct. In the past, surnames (afa nna) were foreign in Igboland. Children were often identified by their mother's names instead especially in polygamous families where a man had several wives and so many children. It thus became easier for the man to identify his child by the wife who bore him/her. Thus Ahanna son of the third wife, Mgbafor, would be addressed as or introduce himself as Ahanna nwa Mgbafor and Chimdike son of second wife, Nnedi, would be addressed as Chimdike Nnedi. Till date, descendants of the same father/umunna (kindred) but different mothers form their own meetings as their own close-related unit. Surname/last name (afa nna) came with British civilization and Igbos had to adopt their father's names (often first names, as surnames did not exist prior) as their surnames.

Why am I saying this? Because even though Bini settlers settled in Ika land and adopted the Ika speech form, many held on to their Bini names (first names presumably) in connection to their roots and come British civilization, their descendants picked those names as their surnames. Yes, there are chances that a few Igbo aborigines may have wanted to give their children Bini names before the coming of the British, which later stuck as surname but my guess would be majority maintained Ika/Igbo first names and the chances of your Morka and Irabor example happening would not be as frequent as I would think. Settlers in a new area do not heavily influence naming patterns/customs in such manner except there is a major language shift that occurs within a generation or two. I would expect your Morka-Irabor example to feature more consistently instead with assimilated Bini settlers combining their adopted Ika culture and ancestral Bini culture.

Next time reply to me directly instead of leaving side remarks. Thanks.

It was not a side remark. It was a general observation on a trend. Nowadays I try to quote you people as few times as possible so as not to be sucked into long and tiring conversations with people who don't know what they are talking about. Thanks.


[One more evidence that you don't know what you are talking about as far as Ika matters are concerned.

Ogbemudia is a Bini name and means My family/foundation stands firm. It is not the same word as Ogbe nmu dein which means the royal quarter, or literally, the quarter of the descendants of dein (king). Please try and remain in familiar territory, i.e., Enugu-Ukwu history and stop jumping out of your depth. ]

Cire80:
You and I know how dictionaries are written. They pick a word and compile all the possible meanings of that word. Anioma was in the scope of the research and they included Obi being a place where the founder of a community and the Kings Palace because that's how it's being used in Anioma.

If Anioma was in the scope, they wouldn't have entered Obi as 'King's house/palace'. They would have entered it as 'King'. You yourself has said it does not mean 'Palace/King's house' in Anioma.

Again: telling you as someone that has actually lived in the east, Obi means palace/centre of authority among these people.

Abagworo, like many Africans, you underestimate your ancestors. Comparative linguistics is a tool that has widely been used to assess the level of social development of many preliterate peoples. Linguistics like Robert Armstrong have applied it to African languages with very interesting results. In proto-YEAI times we had already attained the Neolithic stage of development, i.e, we were living in stone-age farming villages.

Apart from planting yams and beans, we kept livestock like goats and chicken and paddled canoes. We did buying and selling in markets (Yes, markets) and used money. What we don't know is what items served as money. It certainly wasn't cowries or manillas. Those came much later.

There is no mystery in the Ego, Igho, Egho issue. Linguists know Yoruba, Edo and Igbo are related languages descended from a common protolanguage. They are calle YEAI languages;and you can look it up.

What this means is that just as Urhobo/Isoko, Bini, Esan have inherited some words in common from Proto-Edoid, Edoid, Igboid and Yoruboid have also inherited some words in common from proto-YEAI. One example is the word for money

Owo (Western Yoruba), Ogho (eastern Yoruba), Igho (Edoid), Egho (Ika), Ego (many Igbo dialects).

The relationship is easy to see; gh, in proto-Yoruba changing to w in Western Yoruba dialects.

The Ika form is informed by the location of Ikaland on the frontier between Edoid and Igboid, and not because the word was coined by Ika. None of the participating groups coined it. They inherited it in common.

Please, what do you mean the dictionary was talking about the Anioma Obi title? The dictionaries clearly state that Obi is "King's house" or "palace", which has been my argument all the while, and which is something I have always known based on my experiences in the east. How is that talking about Anioma when we both know Anioma uses a different word for palace?

You said Igbo don't call palace Obi, and that is the only reason I showed you those dictionaries. The only reason.

Cire80:
all the Kings with the Obi title are said to be descendants of the children of the Oba that went into exile for one reasons or the other. Tell me how the title Ovbi Oba doesn't make sense when literally speaking they were children of the Oba. Even the Igbos here can't dispute that because I heard them say many times that the Oba lorded his children on Igbo aborigines of Ika.

Come on, you know very well that not ALL the Obis claim to be descendants of the Oba. The Obi of Ubulu-Uku makes no such claim, and Ubulu-Uku is probably one of the most ancient kingdoms in Anioma with over 26 kings on its kinglist. The Obi of Owa also doesn't claim to be a descendant of the Oba. Obi Efeizomor II has written a book where he reiterated what had been recorded in the Intelligence Reports, that the royal line traces its descent from Nri. The Obi of Ogwashi-Uku, another prominent kingdom also traces his descent from Nri.

In Oshimili, claims of descent from the Oba is even less. Our monarch in Illah, Obi Ogbelani most definitely does not claim Bini Oba descent.

So your statement that all Anioma Obis trace their descent from the Oba of Benin is quite extreme. Evidently, you are looking at a culturally heterogenous zone with Bini-tinted lenses, and consequently your views are likely to be quite coloured.

And your explanation about semantic change is another speculation which I'm sure you're aware of your bias here. There's no proof that any part of Anioma once used Obi in the sense of a place of gathering. As for your question about Imen Obi, I'll tell you that there are times that translating something word for word without knowing the history and origin of that thing is misleading. This is where your bias started from. You'll need to find out about the origin of the Imen Obi before you can get the correct meaning. Every royal term in Ika has a story and history surrounding it. You can't possibly attach any meaning to this without knowing the history surrounding it's first usage. So here is another speculation.

Again, yes, it is a postulation. Without written records that go far back in history, all we can do is postulate based on the information we have. What I have done all along is apply tested rules of historical linguistics on the question at hand. And to the best of my ability, i have done that objectively.

Bias is actually when you reject a theory without a better theory to replace it with, or without an error-proof argument as to why the theory is wrong. We probably wouldn't be having this argument if my theory favoured a Bini origin no matter how weak it sounded.

I,actually chuckle when I see people think Ika can be divided into two camps - those with Bini surnames who came from Benin and those with Igbo surnames who came from Igboland. Only someone with no in-depth firsthand experience of Anioma will think like that. In the old days one Owa man named Osagie or Adigwe may have two children, and call one Morka (Igboid) and the other Irabor (Edoid). Morka's descendants will use Morka as surname, and Irabor's descendants will use Irabor as surname.

Then one uninformed man from the east will come and say the Irabors immigrated from Benin and the Morkas were the Igbo aboriginals. Meanwhile the Irabors and the Morkas are children of one great-grandfather.

Cire80:
now, it makes lots of sense that Ovie is a cognate of Ogie or Ojie but Obi is not a place. That there is a place called Imen Obi is not doesn't mean Obi title is a location or Palace. And the closest term for Palace in Ika and Anioma is Ogua and not Obi. An average Ika man doesn't know what Obi means as regards a palace. And Obi in Igbo doesn't mean Palace. Obi Eze and the Anioma Obi title doesn't have any correlation whatsoever. You should have asked the people that have the Obi title to explain to you the origin of the word before making such speculation.

You said: "And Obi in Igbo doesn't mean Palace."

Let me re-iterate: Obi in Igbo means palace. The word (obi) has layers of meaning, all of them interconnected. At its most basic level, it refers to the centre of authority in a household or a clan. By extension it refers to, yes, a palace.

But since my words are not good enough, I will attach shots taken from two Igbo dictionaries in my archives. The first shot is from a wordlist prepared by colonial anthropologist Northcote Thomas (who started working in the Igbo field in 1898) and published in 1913. The second is from a dictionary prepared by noted linguist Roger Blench, one of the most prolific scholars in the field of "Igboid" linguistics.

(NB: I see some posts here saying Obi means heart. That is a different obi, and it is accented as óbì. The 'Obi' in question here is òbí. They are different words.)

True, we do not use obi to mean palace in Ika, Aniocha and Oshimili. We use egua/ogua (Ika) or ogwa (Aniocha-Oshimili). And this is a local rendition of the Edo word for palace, eguae.

But isn't it a bit strange that you were willing a few days ago to accept that ovbi, a Bini word for child is the source of Obi when ovbi doesn't mean child in Ika or Enuani, but will not entertain Obi the Igbo for palace being etymologically related to Obi the word for king because Obi as palace is not used in Ika-Enuani? This, quite frankly, betrays an implicit bias that many of us (not just Ikas, but also a great many of us in Aniocha-Oshimili) show when discussions of our dual or tripartite heritage (Edo and Igbo, or Edo, Igbo and Igala) are being had.


Anyway, from a historical-linguistic standpoint, it is not difficult to explain why Anioma uses a different word than obi to mean palace, while possibly retaining (with a slight semantic change) the word (obi) for other uses. This often happens when a language draws heavily from two language-stocks (like Ika and Aniocha drew from Edo and Igbo), and inevitably leads to situations where there are two differently-sourced words meaning the same thing. Sometimes both words are retained like that; sometimes one of the words goes out of use; sometimes one of the words undergo semantic change to refer to something else, but usually remains close to the original meaning.

This happened a lot in the English language, when English began to mix with French following the Norman Conquest. Eg: the English took the French words for pig and lamb (pork and mutton), but modified their meanings, so that pork amd mutton don't mean pig and lamb in English, but only the dead meat of these animals. The egua-obi situation is seemingly similar to the pig-pork situation.

I have already asked twice that you try and come up with a reasonable translation of Ime Obi, but you've brushed that aside twice. A historical linguist will easily identify that phrase (Ime Obi) as containing a linguistic relict. A linguistic relict is a word usage that has managed to retain an older meaning of a word after the meaning of the word has changed in other regards.


You said I was making a speculation. I agree. I myself used the word 'plausible' in my other post, and have used the word 'possibly' a number of times in this one. But speculation or not, this is a far better explanation than all the Bini speculations I have heard concerning the origin of the word.

When one sees two words that are:

1. pronounced exactly the same (òbí, òbí),
2. have meanings that are close enough that differences are likely to be only semantic (palace/centre of authority, king),
3. come from languages that are recognised by all professional linguists in the field as belonging to the same language family (the Igboid language family),

one has to hold some bias not to strongly suspect that it was originally the same word.

Cire80:
What's the meaning of Obi in Igbo then. I'm sure you know quite well that every word must not be translated word for word. OK, assuming Obi is an Igbo word, translate it let's see. The Last time I checked, I didn't see any reasonable meaning of Obi in Igbo that relates it to kingship. No non Anioma king uses the Obi title. Only recently I started seeing some writing something like Eze of so so and so, then something like Igwe then Obi on bracket before the name and this is because of the prestige attached to the Obi title. Then you And are you going to ignore the Ovie title which was also corrupted from Ovbie?

Sigh.

If you had translated 'Ime Obi' for me, it would have aided this discussion. The 'obi' in 'Ime Obi' is not a person, is not 'a king'; it is a geographical location, and that is a very relevant point to note in all this. But I will come back to that.

Now to Ovbie. As far as I can ascertain, there is no word like that in Bini. The word is Ovbi, and it has nothing to do with kingship. It means child; no connotations of royalty whatsoever.

Ovie is not a corruption of this Ovbie (which is not even a true word to begin with; like I said the word is Ovbi.) Rather Ovie in Urhobo/Isoko is cognate with Ogie in Bini and Ojie/Oje in Esan. They all mean the same thing. Ovbie/Ovbi is not in the picture at all.

Note that I said 'cognate'. There was no borrowing involved. All these languages are related (Edoid languages), and as such inherited certain words in common from their common ancestor language (Proto-Edoid). Of course due to the linguistic phenomenon of sound shifts over the course of centuries, the 'j' in the Esan version of the word now varies as 'g' in Bini and 'v' in Urhobo and Isoko.


Coming to Obi. Based on this, if you want to claim that Obi came from Bini, then ovbi (child) is a very very weird source --- it did not even serve as the source in the Ovie example as you thought.

An Igbo origin for Obi is most plausible, although I will still give Anioma (more specifically Aniocha) credit for semantic innovation in the way the word came to be used in the Anioma area.

'Obi' (same intonation, same everything with Anioma 'Obi' ) in Igboland means the central building or court from which the head of a household, or the head of a kindred or a quarter or a clan lords it over his dependents. In loose terms, 'Obi' is a palace. Seeing any relationship with kingship yet? Referring to someone by something it is closely associated with is a common metonymic device, eg. Pharaoh = Great House.

When you understand that 'Obi' started out as a fixed place/location before it became a person, 'Ime Obi' begins to make sense.

In what universe is Niyola an 8?

Cire80:
Are these kings Monarchies? And why is the Obi title only in Anioma and Kingdoms affiliated with Anioma. Could it be this?

If the Ovie title of the Urhobos was corrupted from this Edo word Ovbie, then it makes lots of sense that Obi was also from this same word. The Urhobos eliminated the letter B while the Aniomas eliminated the letters B, E

I do not agree, and I will tell you why shortly. But first, how would you translate the name of this Agbor quarter in English. 'Ime Obi'. It doesn't mean 'Inside the King' now, does it?

berryice:
I saw wen kemen was massing tboss...she was laying down,half unclad...

People get topless body massages all the time. That is not an invitation to put your finger on a sleeping woman's clit.

Please, all of you calling Tboss 'manipulative' and feeling sorry for Kemen, how is it doing you?

It was Tboss's plan to get fingered by Kemen so that he could be disqualified? This is why rape remains prevalent here --- because we always find a way to put the blame on the vicitm and excuse the perpetrator. Kemen is a rapey creep; we knew that from day one. This was bound to happen sooner or later If not with Tboss, then with someone else.

The perv had even once joked in the house about a 'friend' who once had carnal knowledge of a girl while she slept. Now I feel that friend was probably him, or he moves in the same circle with guys who habitually molest/rape women.

Papykush:
You can't keep doing all these shìt before me, asking me to massage you while you are nakeď and hope I wouldn't make a move on you. Bìtch I've got a dick and it works.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfh6AX5clLI

So you make a move like a mature self-respecting person. Don't go fingering a girl when she is sleeping. That's rape, and there's no excuse for rape.

Chysler:
Late colonel NWAWO from igbanke in present day Edo state in the civil war documentary after the war said dt he was in Britain undergoing military training when the war broke out and had to be summoned back to Nigeria, on his arrival he was told to take soldiers and fight against Biafra but he refused asking them how can he fight his Brothers (igbos), he was imprisoned but was later released by Biafra soldiers wen they entered Benin and he fought on the side of Biafra. In the clip he maintained dt the Igbanke Pple are a sub or a dialect of Igbo Pple and therefore Igbo... Am proud of this man, He is one of the silent Hero's of Biafra!God rest his soul

Nwawo was from Onicha-Olona in Aniocha.

blank:
If you have ever been to all parts of Britain, you will know she speaks with a British accent. There are so many types and variants of British accent. Same as in Nigeria, South Western part has a different accent from north western even if we are all speaking English.

When I found out that quite a number of English people can't speak proper English I was so amazed.

Baba, don't bother. Me and a couple of other people here have been through this matter with him. He doesn't know squat about British accents (you can see that everything he knows is based on listening to Kate Winslet and watching Merlin), and he refuses to listen to people who know. Just leave him.

Which kind falling of hand be this?

ImperialYoruba, what do you gain from slandering people?

http://m.digitaljournal.com/blog/11297

ImperialYoruba:
Here, with human hands.

This picture is almost certainly from King Leopold's Congo. Prove me wrong by posting the source.

As for the other pictures, please how are they evidence of cannibalism?

PabloAfricanus:
You see the problem of shameless history revisionists is analogous to that of the actor on stage.
Everyone can see your back, your moves, the entire stage...except the actor who is squarely focused on acting out his script.
If the actor goes out of line or misinterprets his character just a bit, there are those who can tell...
The audience generally have a more holistic view of the whole play than the individual actors...

When you go around inventing tall tales and fabricating nonexistent history...
maybe due to lies or fallacies you have been fed from home(happens to everyone)...
You do not generally perceive anything in your narrative as being off...cos you have been consciously desensitized to it.
That there are those with stronger historical perspectives and facts than yours almost always escapes revisionists...
particularly those whose mandate came from their traditional narratives...
It is a veritable blindspot well known to anyone who has confronted historical revisionists...
usually it takes a whole lot of fact digging and public exposure of one's historical ignorance to wake up these set of people
to the fact that there are indeed other narratives that are more factual and accurate than the ones they've been fed with.


That you agree in general with the load of bombastic and wholesale revision of history by Cire80 leaves little to discuss...
Cos you apparently are not aware of how ridiculously funny his narrative sounds...
Lemme paraphrase it for you...that history or narrative espoused by him and believed by you in general...never happened.
Nothing like that ever took place, neither were there any people called "Igbos" who partook of such a history with another set of people
called "Ikas". Never happened, precolonial, during the colonial times, post colonial times.
Anyone who has studied the matter not just from a neutral perspective, but from even a shallow knowledge of the history of both peoples across the Niger can tell by reading that load of BS that such a thing never took place.
Except ofcourse in the parallel universe of revisionists...
...where a grown man cannot recite the Lord's prayer in his own supposed language in which he claims fluency and claims to be an authority...but can recite the same in a foreign language imposed on his people.
One wonders if the Lord's prayer is not available in English for translation?
...where the Annangs, Ibibios, Efiks and Ijaws who are closer to the Igbos escaped buying Igbo language, words, dialects from the Igbos when they came to trade with them...despite very very heavy intermarriage with the Igbos...
but another set of people who claim to be Edos and have never had anything to do with Igbos suddenly lost their language and culture in less than 100 years...after conducting trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific trading with the Igbos.
I could go on.
You lots should go get some sense and quit making fools of yourselves.

What is this incoherence about?

PabloAfricanus:
In ur opinion his assertion makes less sense to you than that of the bombastic revisionist he was responding to right?

There are finer details in which Cire80 and I disagree, but in general, yes.

Donbabajay12:
Abeg Uriel shouldn't go home ooooo,this girl madness na Certified

Then vote, bruv, vote.

bigfrancis21:
Any Ika person who clearly answers Irabor, Osazuwa or Okunbor etc. as surname is clearly a Bini settler in Ika (Igbo) land and you do not belong in Igboland. They are the ones that make the loudest noise about their bini ancestry. You clearly belong to Edo state and not Ika/Anioma. Please return to your respective villages in Edo state.

I honestly don't know how you guys can type things like this with a straight face.


And why do you use your mod power to get into a quoted comment and make alterations. That's messed up and so not right, dude.

bigfrancis21:
.

Many people on such pages are not from the group the pages were created for. I easily spotted Easterners and people from other parts of Anioma there.