₦airaland Forum

wiegraf: Consider this, did adam's descendants ask to be born? Did any of us ask to be born? So now, created imperfectly as we are by him, we are just supposed to arbitrarily follow his whims or face eternal punishment? Do you know how that sounds?

the instruction from the start was "be fruitful and become many and fill the earth"

so, it was not a later thought that children will be born.

Sexual acts naturally produces osprings.

Children at no time ever asked to be born.

It is just a natural thing for children to inherit what their parent have/leave behind for them.

Some health/wealth
Some sickness.

wiegraf: Say we have a world class dog breeder, universally hailed as the best there is, and probably the best there ever will be. Supposing said breeder is looking to breed a perfect whatever breed but fails through no fault of the puppies.

No, the parent puppies were created perfectly, but the parent puppies rejected their creator/designer and went after another "supposed" breeder that was not the original designer/creator and another "user" manual was used to regulate them which was not the designers specified manuals.
^^^
what sort of result do expect?

wiegraf: He then forces them to live in completely terrible, inhumane environments despite being the richest man in the universe because one of the parent dogs

the condition they live now is a function of the (inefficient) provision provided by the new custodian who by the way is not the designer and is ill equip to fit into the role he has taken upon himself because of envy and pride.

The plan was a paradise and still is.
The blame is rather on the new impostor breeder.

wiegraf: (which he bred as well) bit him. When a dog is about to die, he either brutally tortures it for the rest of time in his specially designed torture machine which keeps them alive but in constant pain,

thats a lie designed by the impostor breeder that is running things to forment hatred for the original designer.

The bible does not teach eternal torment.

The use of the word fire in the bible is symbolic.

Two kinds of physical death exist in the bible.

1. One is the death due to Adam's action via inheritance/transfer to his children, in this, there is a promise that "all" will come back to life.

2. And A death meted out by God himself, in this there is no more hope of resurrection it is an everlasting/permanent death.

This death caused by the almighty is represented by the word "fire" in the bible.
It is an abuse when it is taken to be literal.

When the word "fire" is used, it is to signify that the destruction is from God and that it is a permanent death and no coming back/resurrection.

Then, the word "fire" marks the difference from the regular death of mankind resulting from Adam and the one caused by the almighty God so that we know the difference in the bible.

So, eternal torment is not a bible teaching but a misunderstanding of the use of the word "fire" in the bible.

wiegraf: or he puts them in a hippie machine which keeps them happy for the rest of time. Did you notice that he is torturing the 'bad' dogs for his own failures, yes?

like i have said, that is a misconception based on the understanding of the use of the word fire.

wiegraf: Now imagine that when the law finally catches on and is asking him why he treats them so, he explains that they broke laws of the house. Laws arbitrarily set up without input from anyone else, ie the rest of society,

nothing "catches" up on Yahweh since from the start in Eden he had already put this plans in motion out of his own volition.

wiegraf: Laws like prohibiting running on sabbath and eating shell fish, or he simply didn't like their parents. All these crimes he deemed punishable by death,

the laws that were given to the Jews was aim toward keeping them different from other nation and the things those nations do so that satan cannot easily access them.

If satan access them the Jews then he would have used them to work against the coming of the massaiah.

Because of this greater benefit that will reconcile all man back to God, any disobedient person was put to death, and it also serve to teach a lesson to us today.

Besides, disobedience from Adam is why we are in this condition today, such will not be tolerated for ever.

wiegraf: he encouraged the other dogs to track down transgressors and beat them mercilessly until they were barely alive. They then deliver them to him so he could proceed to put them in his eternal torture machine.

Like i have said up there, there is no such thing.
The bible does not support that teaching, it is an out of context doctrine.

The wages of sin is death and not everlasting
live in torment/fire.

wiegraf: And these laws he didn't even bother to enforce or train into the dogs himself, he just left some vague clues then leaned back into his recliner and watched the dogs

Adam was a free moral agent just like the angels, he was free to do whatever he likes.

The tree was actually meant to help him set boundaries so that he does not start following satan ignorantly. no law no boundaries, so, the tree help him track the bad guy.


Yehwah always educate those he gives his laws to, he did to the nation of Israel.

wiegraf: occasionally rape and eat themselves. To compound on this, he does not torture even the cannibalistic dogs if they eventually learn to answer his special whistle, he tortures all the others that do not learn this trick though, regardless of how good they might have been.

this ^^^ is not true. Yahweh always warns people.

wiegraf: The bold again, he has unlimited capacity to fix the problem, then what is he waiting for?

for all mankind to be warned first in all the earth:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. " (Matthew 24:14).

wiegraf: What you've been describing isn't the traditional omnipotent. What you describe goes to war and seems very afraid of losing, is this correct? So what is your definition of omnipotent

error.
He cannot lose in war!.
He only ask the humans that do the fighting to obey his instructions and do exactly as he had commanded, failure to he abandons them.
His plea is for compliance.
He did took on all the gods and defeated them.
Peace

guy, it has been long i have not seen you around here, how you dey naa?

Hoping all is well.

true2god: Pls get busy and spend less time on nairaland. Enjoy ur week.

this was how you have been lying all over the place in the past but when you were called to defend the bible today you turned ignorant and cant quote the bible.

Yes, people like me should leave NL so that people like you that thrive in ignorance will have a field day in darkness.

You should be ashamed of your self.
Rut.

deebrain: With the authority in me as a member of nairaland and with the available facts via the above pages that the hell advocates could not express their views not to talk of giving an objective answer to the above questions, i move the motion for the official close and termination of this thread.
Thank u and take yr hell doctrines else where.

you should have told them never to preach the lie to any body again. Thanks.

Imagine, painting Yahweh black for satan.
*sigh*

wiegraf: There you go. Or you noticed a democracy somewhere with regards to yah'weh? Your god is a dictator.

rational i say.

In Genesis he discussed with Abraham as though they were equal.

Moses made suggestions to him that he accepted.

he will never destroy wicked people without first warning them.

Very reasonable to me I will say.

wiegraf: No, not really. If I persecuted your children for some grievance I perceive you caused me, and they had absolutely no involvement in said perceived transgression, I'm definitely being markedly vindictive, no?

not when you were the source of a all good things that they had and even their life depended on their remaining connected to you, but their father cause you to leave him and his subsequent children.

That the father did not realise the result of his action does not mean you did not warn them.

If you unplug a fan from the power source the fan will stop running, Yahweh knew this an as such warned them(Adam and eve)

Yahweh is the source of life and knows that if Adam disobeyed him he will abandon him and this "unpluging" will result in his death and his subsequent upsprings.

wiegraf: If the child was in pain

not when you have an infinite capacity to fixe whatever situation the child is perfectly, you will not be so desperate but look for a permanent solution to the cause of the child pain.
See:

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which

"all"

that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of Judgement " (John 5:28-29).

And:

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4).

wiegraf: , especially in pain I was involved in inflicting,

he did not have a part in afflicting any thing.

"You can only take the cow to the stream you cannot force it to drink"

Adam chose another authority. So he allowed him to exercised his freewill just as he allowed angels in heaven exercise theirs.

wiegraf: I'd be more worried about rehabilitating him then how clean my suit was.

and that is what he is doing by sending his son not minding the cost to him.

wiegraf: And rebelling does involve questioning authority,

this rebellion is more than what you think.
He said that Yahweh is a liar.

Actually, satan started in heaven where he had caused 1/3 of the angels to rebel already.

The fruit was to help Adam not to cross the line like the Angels did.

Other faithful angels in heaven were watching the proceeding. To proof matters Yahweh allowed satan to proof his claims so that all will see who the liar and deceiver is.
and here we are, dying and suffering instead of "being like God". Now, Yahweh is justified to destroy.

wiegraf: the xter yah'weh is a vindictive, immoral dictator. Not an opinion.

i dont think so and i dont see that any where am afraid NO.

wiegraf: edit: bonus pic demonstrating yah'wehs logic. So, one shouldn't question our boss, hmmmm?

the passage of time was for satan to proof his claims and challenge.

We are all witnesses to how badly satan's claims have caused us.
Peace

frosbel: not a surprise coming from you, I always knew you were a pathetic case for a moderator

lol. You cant be serious?

Praise on the one hand, accusation on the other, all for one person!

manmustwac: [size=16pt]SHHAAARAPP!!![/size]

lol. Very interesting.

frosbel: Can I make a complaint and ask manmustwac to stop trolling and derailing a thread I opened recently.

https://www.nairaland.com/1156627/atheists-please-tell-us-conversion

imagine!

A "trolling" Mods.
Lol

Seun: I'm referencing the entire bible from Genesis to Revelation. Throughout the entire bible, slave-keeping is never condemned as a sin.

i have said that there are context behind every statement.

The context of the OT is different from the context of the NT.

Seun: Actually, I think we should dwell on what the bible does not say about slavery. The bible does not say it is a sin to own or trade slaves.

the bible/Yahweh has a purpose from the start and it is to that end that the bible is written, being: "to reconcile all men back to God"

Yahweh had abandon Adam after the fall and the process of reconciliation and the obstacle therein at the start is the message of the bible with the ultimate goal being to restore back the paradise that was lost by Adam.

such ^^^ is the bibles terms of reference.

It is not you or in your power to change the bible terms of reference and to argue from an out of context point and intent.

Consider this approach:

Imagine you are trying to woo a lady that never knew you befor to be your wife.

without her knowing your intent and without her consent you start out giving her your rules and regulations as to how you wish your wife to act and do, without winning her and helping her to know your plans you start taking offence on her on the way she has been living her life in the past which by the way is Withing the acceptable norms in her society, do you think you will succeed in winning her over and succeed in instilling the values you have in mind?

Most probably No.

And she may never come round to hear you out because of your "unreasonable" approach.

Consider the spread of christianity from such ^ angle.


Have you been told that in the kingdom of God which is the ultimate target for christianity and her convert that slavery will be a standard norms there?

The essence of christianity must be taken into consideration and hence her "Mode of operation" = "appeal to all kinds of men of all back ground and culture"

hear paul speak:

"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; "To them that are without law, as without law, though i am not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (1 Corinthians 9:19-22)
................
^^^
exactly.

See the big picture :
In the kingdom of God all ills will be corrected:

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, and I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:

"for the former things are passed away." "

(Revelation 21:2-4)
.................

^^^

considering the aim/target of christianity a realistic approach i will say.

It is not your place to redirect the tasks and target of christianity.
Peace.

dejo2007: Why does the catholic church worship 'Mary' and use 'Images' in their act of worship? This mantra is common among the protestants which is why they have continued to protest. I want to make something clear here. For you to understand why somebody does something, you should put yourself in that person's shoes. Millions of catholic faithfuls the world over can not be deceived or fooled at thesame time. Suffice to say that one's culture is peculiar to that person. So for you (protestants) to understand what we do, ask questions about the catholic faith and doctrines, instead of being an armchair theorist who just sit right inside the confine of his room, speculates and concludes. In other words, alwayz justify your stands with facts! Now get the point: we catholics dont worship Mary, but honour her for her kind gesture for accepting to bear our saviour Jesus Christ. If God Himself honoured her first through the Angel Gabriel, ('hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee....') what crime have we catholics committed by towing thesame part? On the issue of the use of Images, they are means to an end, and not an end in themselves. People stand on the commandment that says, we should not make or worship any image, but who do these Images we use resemble? I know people will counter me on this question, but just read on. Now what do you have to say when God commanded Moses to lift up the Bronze Snake in the wilderness that whoever looked at it would be healed. That presently represents our lord Jesus Christ on the cross, thus whoever looks at him shall be saved. Thus the sight of these images reminds us of the presence of Christ among us physically, though He is alwayz present spiritually. What point am I trying to drive home here, we dont worship Mary, but honour her and see her as our intercessor before her son Jesus Christ with reference to what happened at the wedding at Canaan. Don't expect the story from me. We dont worship Images, but see them as points of reference. But let me ask, if all we do is to give God glory and is for the salvation of mankind, which among others are the ultimate of religious act, what is wrong with it. Do not be ethnocentric, but be relative in your religious practices because we all pursue one common goal: 'Heaven' though through different means. This avenue won't permit me to fully express my views, but you (UNN students) can join the Catholic Faith Club at St. Peter's chaplaincy every Saturdays by 8am for proper re-orientation. No pun intended!

is you or human we should as questions or we should as the bible question or rather read the bible to know the truth?

Is it you that should specify how God should be worship or God has spelt that out already in the bible?
*sigh*

TroGunn: Note that soul in the Bible is the man or animal (Gen 2:7 - man became a soul when he received breath of life). Similarly soul is used to describe dead men or dead bodies, meaning soul (man) dies (nephesh-soul used at Leviticus 21:1, Numbers 9:6, Numbers 9:7)

Soul is also used often to mean "life that a person or animal has". Most of the verses you quoted refer to soul in this usage.

Example of soul being used to refer to "life" is Acts 20:10 - "To whom, when Paul had gone down, he laid himself upon him, and embracing him, said: Be not troubled, for his soul is in him". (Douay Rheims). Most translations use life, though it should be soul.

Note too that "spirit" is used to mean character or mental disposition/attitude - e.g spirit of jealousy (Numbers 5:14). Most of the verses you quoted refer to spirit in this usage.

In Matt 10:28 - Here soul is used to mean "life" or prospect of life. Jesus here meant we should be concerned about God who can deprive us of life. Satan and his agents can kill us, but God can give us life again (by resurrection). Only God can permanently take away life from a person - as if by burning in a fire, meaning permanent destruction without possibility of resurrection.

Hebrews 4:12 simply means the Bible can change lifes and show people up for what they really are. Soul here is life and spirit is character - combined to denote a living person's inner feelings or mental disposition/character that can be laid bare or change by the bible's message. Unless you think the bible can attack real joints and marrow.

In 1Thessalonians 5:23, here Paul was talking of the preserving (used by some translations instead of sanctifying - no biggy) the church or congretion. From the context, the Thessalonians were to remain blameless by praying (verse 17), quench not the Spirit (verse 19), keep away from evil ( verse 22) so that the spirit ( mental disposition or character of the congregation), body (members of congregation - 1 Corinthians 12:12-13), and soul (life or existence ) of the congregation is preserved.

Paul couldn't have been talking of preserving physical body (why would physical body need to be preserved at death - until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again - when it returns to dust) or preserving spirit in the context you are looking at.

Nothing here to hold onto to support story of the immortal soul that survives and lives indepndent of the body at death.

The bible's message is so clear, no point twisting unrelated verses. Here's what was going to happen to man (Adam) after his sin:

Gen 3:19 - By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Eccl 3:19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Man stays dead untill resurrection. That's the whole point of resurrection - if man had an immortal (and better) component that continues to live after death, then the whole point of resurrection would be meaningless.

i guess you have done a fine job of it already.
Well dong.

I dont just know when the spirit of Gone turned to an individual.

God send his spirit or his power and takes it back when the persons dies, but people wish to say that this spirit now turns to a person while returning back. Na wao!

Meanwhile it is this same spirit that God us in doing all other things in divers form and the creeping things.

Well, since this same spirit powers all other living things like worms, ant, flies maggot, milipede, centipede, rats, cockroches, mice, etc etc, they also go back to stay with God when the spirit also goes back to God.
see:

"And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of

every "creeping" thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the "breath of life",

of all that was in the dry land, died." (Genesis 7:21-22).

"And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the "creeping" things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." (Genesis 7:23).
...............

Yes, all this creeping things are with God also since the same breath/spirit on them leaves and go back to God according to @Annony.
*sigh*

.

wiegraf: Note the bold. You are asking an atheist if he is made in god's image? Do you now understand why I asked this?

well, for an atheist! Ok.

wiegraf: Ok, so that is what the fruit was, rejecting god in a sense, yes? Ok

yes, a symbol of his authority and not s.ex. Lol.

wiegraf: But note, what you've described here is a dictator.

a dictator would have killed them, not allowing any opposition to escape.

A dictator will have killed off satan, Adam, Eve, and all disobedient Angels at that instance, not giving satan an opurtunity to justify/defend his claims.

wiegraf: A rather vindictive

how?

Your opinion though.

wiegraf: one that goes as far as punishing the descendants

but the descendants also inherited their fathers characteristics haven't been operating outside devine guidance that has led to all sort of badness. No?

How can he relate with the unrighteouse while he is holy, holy, holy?

If you were putting on a clear white cloth, will you pickup/carry up on your body a mud stain child without an attempt at cleaning the child?

wiegraf: of people he banished for asking questions of his authority.

No, they did not ask question they rebelled.

1. They said that Yahweh was lying. Called Yahweh a liar.
2. They said that Yahweh was not a good ruler, that he witched soothing good from them.
3. They coverted Yehwah's position as their God.

wiegraf: To add more to the situation, he's supposedly omnipotent

^^^

if you mean most powerful(almighty) yes.

wiegraf: and omniscient

^^^

i have not seen that word ^^^ in my bible.

You cannot abandon people an at the same time destined them.

wiegraf: making his case particularly petty and

your personal opinion that is.

wiegraf: irrational.

if your creator is irrational, then i wander what you are.

The brain he designed is a testament.

You are limited though, unable to get the ful picture yet.

wiegraf: No spin can change these FACTS except for redefining terms.

adding is tantamount to a crime.


Like you can see, he Yahweh is not afraid of any person, his words are written in black and white and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

I dont need to twist, so, it makes it very easy for me.
Peace

Logicboy03: Employees in the bible? Slave was redefined in the new testament? The bible doesnt support slavery?

When did the bible get so modern?


You christians make me sick sometimes. Your bold lies and remixing for the bible only makes you guys look more and more immoral.

thank you!

If that was meant to be a compliment that is.

Lol.

Logicboy03: 5 facts for Truthislight

1) All older bibles use the words "slaves" for the 3 verses I wrote.

2) There is no where in the bible that states that the definition of slaves changed within christianity. That is a baseless claim

3) The old testament is part of christianity

4) How can you claim that your "good" God was involved in a winner take all" battle? where slaves and virgins were taken after genocides? S

5) The old testament is God's word. God commanded his people to take slaves whether you like it or not. That is not a good God.

i belief i have already addressed your concerns.

However, this:

Logicboy03: 4) How can you claim that your "good" God was involved in a winner take all" battle? where slaves and virgins were taken after

it is either you are short of the facts or you are deliberately being deceitful.

But if you dont have the facts how then can you make an informed argument?

If you had red your bible well when you were a christian you will have known some facts about what happened in the OT. (go and read your bible again well this time around)

The Nation of Israel on leaving egypt after their slavery there, where on their way to the promised land with women, children, and domestic animals for their journey.

But, from no where and without provocation for no offence of any kind against them, the Amalikite attacked the sons of Israel, killing innocent children, woman, and unarmed men that had never fouth war befor and plundered their livestock sending the whole throngs scattering in the wilderness/desert.(why not read the story yourself and learn?).

Then Yahweh the God of the Israelites vowed to pay back Amalikite back in their own coins which he did when he sent Saul the first king of Israel to go and devote them to destruction.

Though Saul disobeyed came back with livestock and their king instead of destroying every every that caused Yahweh to get angry with Saul and rejected him.

I hope you know this words, "to obey is better than sacrifice"? Yes, that was the reason for that statement.

To cut a long story short, my God Yahweh the creator of the univers is a God of Justice, that you lack this basic understanding of what had happened and pass on ignorant Judgement is not my making but your folly.

I advice you to read the bible a second time, and properly this time.

You fail to see how the god of the Amalikite(satan) sent his Worshpers to destroy the people of Yahweh from were he had plan to send the massaiah Jesus christ as to prevent the coming of Jesus.

That Yahweh is a honest God and wrote down the history as it had happened while you are ignorant of the parts satan played is not a reason for you to think one sided.

I know what happened and that is why i am everly greatful to Yahweh for taking all necessary action to ensure that the massaiah came and reconciled man.

Learn the facts befor you miss out.

As for the rest of what you said up there, it is a function of your limitation.
Peace

Logicboy03: Leviticus 25:44
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

Exodus 21:20-21
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property

it is as though you did not get my gist with @seun.

I had told seun that in the OT it was a battle between Yahweh and other gods and as such it was "the winner takes all".

That my argument is NT the context and use of the word slave should not be taken out of context since slave/servant means different things from the secular use of the word "slave" in today's World.

So, please, limit your quotes to the NT.

And, slow down. Lol.

Logicboy03: 1 Peter 2:18
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

^^^
are this the commandments to christians to take slaves?

this is what i having been saying that the context of the NT and the use of the word slave is completely different.

Maybe that scripture should have red civil servant for you to understand what the instruction was for.

Most people those days were traders and craft men and any that works under the other for the purpose of payment were all classified as slave/servants, that in the NT.

The instructions there is a directive to those doing a job under a master to be an exemplary worker in conduct as not to bring reproach to the faith and such good conduct will bring a positive report concerning the christian way and if possible attract the master to become a christian which at the end will serve the end result of the christian faith.

Christianity has a purpose which i doubt you know.

But christian have the command to preach to all sort of men in both words and conduct and help them come to christ.

Meanwhile, if the individual were not workmen but slave owing to force labour, how does that translate that there master was a christian?

Were the christians supposed to maltreat others under him and remain as christians? No.

If this slave were under force labour, how come they have the liberty to become christian and have this much freedom to associate? .

Do people on chains and force labour have such privileges? No.

That they can decide to follow the christian faith which their master was not shows that they were not on chains and free to work and not under your conventional definition of "slavery" as i had said.

Meanwhile, read from kingjames version below. :

"Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward." (1 Peter 2:18).
...............

That ^^^ was a simple advise to employees under someone on how christians are to behave under employment as not to bring reproach to the name of christianity.

The target of christianity was also geared toward converting their master also, and to that end, instructions were given to ensure that the purpose of christianity that will accomodate all sort of men and not to create disharmony.

Peac

.

Logicboy03: Why do christians like to redefine things? Soon Goshen and Truthislight will redefine "slavery" to "paid servitude".


We are to believe that working conditions in biblical times (before the dark ages) were humane with beating and marking your slaves allowed?



I am tired of the lies

are there scriptures that give commandment to christians to take force labour?

Please, can i see them?
Thank you.

Seun: Jesus, his disciples, and early Christians lived in a world where slavery was commonly practiced, and yet it never occurred to them to condemn slave ownership anywhere in the Bible. They even allowed slave owners to join the church without being required to free their slaves. How can you claim that biblical morality is superior in light of this fact?

less i reply you out of context, can you Pls, post the the exact portion you are referencing to and lets see?
Peace.

i seem to love this thread though, maybe because of the fine work of @honeychild

TroGunn: What's with the emotionalism? The God's Holy Spirit is used to accomplish God's purpose - creation, empower God's servants, etc and is very powerful indeed. It doesn't have to be a person and is generally not presented as a personality in the scriptures. The bulk of the appearance of Holy Spirit talks of it filling people or being given by God to do extra ordinary things - gifts of the Spirit.

That it's personaliised in some verses doesn't make it a person.

Just like wisdom is not a person even though it's said of it "Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words" (Prov 1:20,21). That wisdom also speaks in Prov 8 doesn't mean it's a person. Nor is sin a person when it's to said "reign" in Rom 6:12. It's common in grammar - personification.

Nice cop out, though no one is fooled.

Guess we can conclude that man doesn't have some immortal soul, but at death "returns to dust". (Gen 3:19).

there is this part about the use of the word government also.
See:

"on behalf of the "Government" of the federal republic of nigeria, i declear that 1st of Jan. ..... Is a public holiday"

i guess the "Government" there ^^^ is a person. .

hisblud: In short, most of what i posted agrees wit this your explanation truthislight and i will bring more scriptures. Soon

we have spirit creatures as spirit.

We have ones character or his disposition as spirit.

We have breath of life as spirit.

We have the power of God as his spirit(holy spirit).

We also have the power of satan as his spirit.

You should not abused the usage because you saw the word "spirit"

TroGunn: Funny, the proof of existence of soul/spirit that survives death! Chief, all that verse points to is one's inner feeling - only you know what you feel or think with your brain.





Are you insinuating that something jumped out of Paul and was present there, though Paul wasn't there bodily? Like seriously? Paul was there speaking to them invisibly thru that letter, having heard what happened and being guided by Holy Spirit so could judge accordingly the issue at hand.

The whole of 1 Cor 5 deals with a bad case of immoral behaviour. See the rest of the verses to show that it is the spirit (mental disposition or attitude) of the believers was to be saved or protected from the corrupting influence { because "a little yeast leavens or corrupts the whole batch of dough" } of the immoral unrepentant person ( who is thrown out - handed over to Satan):

1 Cor 5:6 - "Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people".

Clutching at straws here my friend.




The whole of 1 Cor 14 deals with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, manifest in prophesying and speaking in tongues (unknown tongues). It clearly showed that people Spoke in Tongues as a gift of the (Holy)Spirit, and yet it may not be advantageous if not understood. If you weren't so engrossed in twisting the scriptures to support a failed imoortal soul ( now turned to spirit) teaching, you'd have noticed.



No difference - breath of life is from God and is what sustains life.




Read Rom 8 awhole, especially verse 15 again. Discusses sinful nature and not having "spirit of bondage" - it's all about our mental disposition, character. Instead talks of "spirit of adoption" or sonship - all about disposition as sons, co-heirs.

Terrible to discount the various bible verses clearly pointing to "return to dust" and absence of life for dead sinful man, only to look for scriptural support for this immortal soul Greek mythology by twisting these verses which discusses something else entirely. Bros change your ways, stop allowing Satan fool you like he did Adam when he told him he won't die - you and I know that Adam is back to dust and has no further part with the living.

the part that talks about sending out the sinner is to keep the congregation clean.

I just wanted hisblud to see the consistency of the use of the word spirit as the power of God.

Meanwhile, what we are to discuss on this thread is soul and not spirit.

He has nothing to hold onto that is why he is running to spirit and saying things as though the spirit is now the soul which we all know it is a different thing all together.

The spirit is not the soul. QED.

hisblud: what exactly are you up to sef?



Let see:
hisblud:
action=good/bad (fruit)
correct
yes


hisblud:
electricity=life
error!
Electricity = power that produce the life in combination with the mould.


hisblud:
cpu=tree
error!
Cpu = the brain.


hisblud:
haa haa nice.try this...
Have you tested a mango fruit?
yes


hisblud:
what gives the tree the ability to produce the fruit you enjoy? is it not the mango
error!
It is not the mango.
It is the force of life.
hisblud:
"life" in the mango tree?
Life in the mango tree = soul.




hisblud:
thus we can "blame" the "electricity" aka life of the tree that bears its fruit.
what!
The electrcity is not the life but the driving force.
How can you blame an impersonal forcethat has no character or person on its own just like the current that powers the cpu?


hisblud:
thus without the life, the tree cannot bear its fruit....
you mean without the life force or current the tree will not bear its fruit?
hisblud:
therefore back to my conclusion i had earlier asked
so what about those your wrong assumptions?
My friend upgrade please.

my friend i am not understanding you here.

hisblud: aight, as a newbie, let me take both ur interpretation

Lets take some verses to apply your explanation of the word "spirit"
a. "attitude"
b. "mental disposition"
c. "power of God, breath, holy spirit"
d. "Satan also have his own spirit"
e. "we also have spirit creatures as spirit"



@truth


So here b. mental disposition maybe be accepted for spirit.







@truth

John 4:23,24 :
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. "
....................
Spirit = unseen force that is God's power without any physical intermediary, God/Jesus promise his spirit to all his Worshpers to help them worship him in truth = word of God= bible.

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. "

Truth = word of God.



hmm maybe, maybe not!




11 For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God.
Darby
Spirit here is related to one's mental disposition- one's inner feeling. The essential idea is, that no man can know another's mind; that his thoughts and designs can only be known by himself. Even today we talk of knowing what's in one's heart- it doesn't make the heart a separate being that survives death.

1cor 2:11 :
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."
.....................
That it takes the help of God's power to discerned the deep things of the almighty God, were the spirit is God's power that will help his followers to do that.




fail the spirit here is e. "we also have spirit creatures as spirit" thus it points to the spirit of man!!!




1 Cor 5:3
3 For I, [as] absent in body but presentin spirit, have already judged as present,
Darby
Figurative speaking- present"invisibly"- talking to them through the letter. Sprirt (same word used for"wind" - something invisible.


1cor 5:3 :
"For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,"
.....................
Though he apostle paul is not present in person but by the power of God that he has he has Judged already.



fail the spirit here is e. "we also have spirit creatures as spirit" thus it points to the spirit of man!!!





1 Cor 5:5
5 to deliver him, [I say,] [being] such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Darby
Talks of removing an ardent sinner to the world (handing over to Satan) for destruction of flesh (removing corrupting influence), so the spirit is saved (mental disposition of believers, church is preserved, people thus uncorrupted by sinner).




1cor 5:5 :
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
...................
Only almighty God can destroy both soul(life) and body.

So, that such a person should be given a temporary blow by satan by satan destroying him temporary (body) but the future life(soul) of such a one can be saved via the resurrection hope.

But if it was the almighty God that destroyed him there will have been no hope of a future Resurection to life for such a person, since there will be no more life(soul) for such a person in the future.




fail the spirit here is e. "we also have spirit creatures as spirit" thus it points to the spirit of man!!!




1 Cor 14:2
2 For he that speaks with a tongue does not speak to men but to God: for no one hears; but in spirit he speaks mysteries.
Darby
Speaking in Tongues - a gift of God's Holy Spirit. Spirit here is Holy Spirit




1cor 14:2 :
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
.....................
gift of the spirit = help from the power of God to speak a foreign language.

So, such a person is worshiping God via the help of the power of God using a foreign language that is a mystery to others that also speak in other foreign language.



fail the spirit here is e. "we also have spirit creatures as spirit" thus it points to the spirit of man!!! btw @truth you are mixing it here. how can it be a foreign language when its says NO ONE understands but God? Here its not talking about the type spoken by the apostles in Acts 2.




1 Cor 14:14-16
14 For if I pray with a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding.
16 Since otherwise, if thou blessest with [the] spirit, how shall he who fills the place of the simple [Christian] say Amen, at thy giving of thanks, since he does not know what thou sayest?
Darby
Related to operation of Holy Spirit. Here"my spirit" is akin to "my gift of the Holy Spirit endowed on me". Meaning if u speak in tongues (as a result of Holy Spirit) that is not understood, it's unfruitful. Read the context.

1cor 14:14-16 :
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."
"Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?"
................
From above.

When you use the help from God's power(spirit) To speak/pray in a foreign language it is not bad, but the next person that also speak in a foreign language(spirit) that is different from yours and cannot understand your own language will not understand what you are saying and as such will not know when to say Amen to your prayer, of what use is it?

So, it is better you speak in a language that all will understand instead of using the gift of the spirit(power of God) to speak a language that is not beneficial to the rest of the congregation. (Abused)




fail the spirit here is e. "we also have spirit creatures as spirit" thus it points to the spirit of man!!!



John 13:21
21 Having said these things, Jesus wastroubled in spirit, and testified and said, Verily, verily, I say to you, that one of you shall deliver me up.
Darby
Troubled in spirit - his mental disposition or mental state. Same as in Acts 17:16 - Paul's spirit disturbed, provoked or troubled.




John 13:21 :
"When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. "
......................
Jesus christ with the help of God's power(spirit) knew that one of the disciple will betray him.

mmh maybe, maybe not

Luke 23:46
46 And Jesus, having cried with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit. And having said this, he expired.
Darby
Spirit here is "breath of life" operating in him. Once gone, death results. Same as in Eccl 2:7. Only God has power to restore it to the person thru resurrection, so committing it to God expresses Jesus faith and hope that Godrestores his life. Same usage as in Job 34:14,15.

which one should we choose "breath of life" or "power of God"?

fail the spirit here is e. "we also have spirit creatures as spirit" thus it points to the spirit of man!!!

lol.
Judge hisblud, who made you a judge over us?

Show the bible basis.

You mean two spirit that are "persons" will be fighting/struggling inside our body abi?

I tire for you.

frosbel: The bible says it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD.

Just imagine on that day , the wicked will be raised and judged and then all their secrets will exposed and their shame will be a public event. At this time , they will suddenly realize that this is the end for them , no hope whatsoever.

They will hear the master say "depart from your you cursed into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels " , then to be taken by angels to the edge of the lake and suddenly realize it's over. The angels will throw them into this lake along with all the other wicked , to be burnt to ashes and they will die forever.

even though you are giving the benefit of the doubt it will not really help saying that the fire that the grave and death will be thrown into is literal.

Beside, that revelation that talked about the situation after judgement day put it this way:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison," (Revelation 20:7).

"And shall (satan) go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:8,9)
....................
^^^ = destroy them.


The lake of fire must remain the second death as the bible puts it, "death and grave will be thrown" into it. Not literal fire. Rev 20:14.

There is no body of fire somewhere that people alive will be thrown into.


"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." (Jeremiah 7:31).

Sending people or things into a body of fire remain second death.
Peace.

Fire = symbol of everlasting destruction of anything.

Seun: @truthislight: regarding slavery in the new testament, what you're saying is that you will interpret the word "slave" as "servant" or "employee" in some contexts and as the original meaning in some other contexts. In other words, you will pick the definition that fits your current beliefs better in every case. That's absurd, but I'll drop it.

My original argument, which you were trying to challenge, was that the bible does not condemn the practice of slavery. This remains true.

my argument was NT.

OT, wars were fought between servant of Yehwah and servants of other gods as to whose God was the most powerful or the "true" God and as it were winner takes all.

That ^^ haven been cleared the focussed hence in the NT was to draw all kinds of human back to the "true" God and laws were given to serve that end.
Peace

cyrexx: @bolded.

You just nailed it, man.

Yahweh cannot survive without our belief in him and our worship of him. He is a needy god and a puny god.

Richard Dawkins correctly describes him thus:

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak"
- Richard Dawkins

this is purely a statement burn out of complete ignorance, or egotistical self importance out of nothing.
a life you dont even know how you come to be, 60 or 80yrs life and pheeeeewwwww, gone!

What happened to Yahweh befor human was created?

Dont you know he has a host of spirit sons very powerful angels also and they have been with him long befor humans were created? What is mortal man?

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"
"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?" (Job 38:4-
.....................

Yehwah have his spirit sons long befor the earth was created and they dont die like grasses, here today and tomorrow are no more. Imagine!
Just Imagine the pot abusing potter:

"Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so the potter made it again into another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."
"Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel." (Jeremiah 18:3-10)
.....................

Just as a potter can do whatever he wishes to do with the clay, breaking it as it pleases him and moulding it as it pleases him so Yahweh can do with the human he formed from the dust.
Yes, he can do whatever he wants and there is nothing you can do about it.
Maybe when you are dust you will have the mouth to abused him still, How wise you are?
...................

Yes, he is showing interest any further towards human because of christ and christ loves humans.

So:

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

Oversize ego!
*sigh*

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I don't think the problem is from me, I think the problem is from what you expect Christianity to be. It is not your "good works" that save you, Christ does by his grace. After you have been redeemed by His grace, you live according to His pleasure not out of compulsion or to score points but out of love for Him.
We don't sin not because we are "trying be holy" - we can't impress God with our "holiness"- but because we love Him and His grace will keep us steadfast in Him. Not by our personal ability but by His grace. I know you know this.


Please read the verses above again and be so kind as to show me exactly how I have contradicted it.


Apologetics is basically evangelism and it will be wrong if I am preaching anything but truth. The sad thing - it seems to me - is that somehow you want truth to be unreasonable. It isn't.


Please give the verses a second - and possibly third - read.[/quote]"do you not know that they that run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain the prize.
And every man that takes part in a context excersis self control in all things, Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible."
"I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so, the way i am directing my blows is so as not to strike the air: But I pummel my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should not be disapproved some how." (1 Corinthians 9:24-27)

christianity is not lawlessness.

musKeeto: You make it sound like Christianity has no 'conditions'. If you disagree and if Christianity does have conditions (like you have said on so many previous threads), then those conditions imply that the Christian still has some work to do: obeying God's commands, studying the word, keeping away from negative thoughts...

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God has appeared
that offers salvation to all people.
12 It teaches us to say “No” to
ungodliness and worldly passions,
and to live self-controlled, upright
and godly lives in this present age,
13 while we wait for the blessed hope
—the appearing of the glory of our
great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem
us from all wickedness and to purify
for himself a people that are his very
own, eager to do what is good.

Maybe you need to stop the 'apologetics' and stick to the 'truth of the Word', instead of trying to make it more attractive and 'reasonable' to the atheists.

NB: feel free to give me a lecture on the verses I just put up. I agree with you that I misquoted them.

*Smh*