₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU:
Yea right, just as your Pope assures atheists that they don't have to believe in God to get to heaven.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-don-t-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

the beauty of it.

Catechism of the catholic church 847 and 848 says

those who througgh no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience- they too MAY achieve eternal salvation.

848 although in ways known to himself God can lead those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of the gospel, to that faith without wish it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to envangelise all men.

That is the general teaching on the possibility of salvation for those who are unknowly ignorant on the gospel. Maybe that will inform you on what exactly the pope said and prevent you from misrepresenting his views.

On atheism proper them I suggest you read paragraph 2123 to 2126 on the catechism.

OLAADEGBU:
How does your spin above corroborate with what your church teaches below?

5. The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation

CCC 846, "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

hahahaha,

did u miss the part of the catechism that says that all who are saved by faith in baptism are Christian and members of the body of Christ?

This is what happens when u study selectively.

Please read article 819, it says
futhermore many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside the visible confines of the catholic church...Christ uses these Churches and communities as means of salvation whose power derive from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ entrusted to the Catholic Church.

people who do not know that Jesus entrust the means of salvation to the Catholic Church but try in their own communities of woship to do what they believe is right may attain salvation.

Learn before you speak.

dmandy:
It happened, not symbolic. Adam and Eve were real.

i certainly agree that the story of adam and eve in the bible relates a real event in salvation history.

OLAADEGBU:
Here is a list of NL catholics to either affirm or deny the claim: italo, btoks, MariaGoretti, dmandy, SalC, Syncan, Rich4god, FrancisTony, Bluerange, Debbie, Damerry, Ubenedictus, Jnrbayano, Kamsified, Titoetal, Jennydoris, Vest, HurricaneChris, MariaGorreti, Aizenosa, Babestell, e.t.c.

weytin dey happen here.

I saw my username,

OLAADEGBU:
Why don't you say what you really mean? You mean to say that the Roman Catholic Church is the body of Christ and the Pope is it's vicar.

Does anyone outside the RCC have a chance of having a living relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ?

you wish to display your ignorance.

The church of Christ subsist in the Catholic Church but that doesn't mean that only "card carrying" Catholics can have a relationship with Jesus.

All who are justified by faith in baptism are Christians and have "communion" with the Church, the catholic church. So yes it is possible for many people who do not identify themselves as Catholics to have a relationship with Jesus.

Timmytimmy:
Haaaaaaa! You people!
What part of my comment did I complain about the use of the word "bigot" by italo? I challenged him because I realised he was generating this negative vibe that was manifested in little insults like"you are not thinking well" or something of the sort. And of course I don't agree with the guy that called him a bigot. I quoted him so he'll stop ending his somewhat meaningful comments with stuff like"Pray that God improves your reason and give you the grace to use it well" It's condescending and insulting.

And, does the fact that things are like this on religious section not raise a question in your heart: Are this people here in search of truth or do they just want to prove their points. If we're here to prove points, then who are we fooling?

i should ask u dat question. Are u here to seek d truth or condemn?

MariaGoretti:
I observed the stations of the cross last saturday. when I got to the 11th station, the part that mentioned the indescribable pain that surged through Jesus's body when dropped into the hole dug for the cross with him hanging on it, I felt a sharp pain in my chest.
And since then, that has registered in my memory. Each time I remember those words, I feel the same pain.

Can someone tell me what that means??

see a doctor, check ur heart.

Apart from dat, africans have a habit of discribing events with the least posible number of words, nobody can guess what really happened from d above.

PastorAIO:
I agree with the Pope too. And the OP is trying to mirepresent what he is saying and the title of this thread is totally false.


There is NO (!) relationship with christ outside the communion. Anyone who says so is deceiving themselves and deceiving others. It betrays a totally lack of understanding of the dynamics of christianity.

it is this idea of personal relationship outside of communion that leads to thousands upon thousands of different churches with everybody getting a different message from the same god (apparently the same God).

seconded

elantraceey:
I rather not live than live without a relationship with my best companion . Pope that doesn't stop me instead it makes me want to work more in church just to see others develop the same closeness to God.

you are getting the pope wrong.

The church is the "body of Christ". U cant claim to have a relationship with Jesus outside the body of Christ. That is a contradiction. Anyone who claims to have a relationship with God outside his church is a liar, a heretic who is harming both himself and d church.

DoubleDeeX:
The man of sin at it again...He has finally revealed himself. Smh!

Jesus Christ will soon rapture His bride...The time is nigh people!

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

weytin concern man of sin for inside dis issue.

elantraceey:
I rather not live than live without a relationship with my best companion . Pope that doesn't stop me instead it makes me want to work more in church just to see others develop the same closeness to God.

you are getting the pope wrong.

The church is the "body of Christ". U cant claim to have a relationship with Jesus outside the body of Christ. That is a contradiction. Anyone who claims to have a relationship with God is a liar, a heretic who is harming both himself and d church.

nobilis:
There are two arms of the Catholic Church.
1. The Roman Catholic Church which thrives in the West and believes in the headship of the Bishop of Rome also known as the Pope.
2. The Eastern Catholic Church (also known as Eastern Orthodox) which thrives in the Middle East and parts of the former USSR and believes in the headship of the Bishop of Constantinople (present day Istanbul), also known as the Ecumenical Patriarch.

a little correction.
A lot of what you said is correct.

The Catholic Church has two arms, the western catholic church and the eastern catholic church, but the "eastern catholic church" here isn't the eastern othodox who are with constantinople, those church are technical in schism. The Eastern Catholic Church herf means the eastern rite churches in communion with rome.


Lastly the east-west schism didnt start at nicea, at Nicea constantinople wasn't even a patriacate. The schism began years later. At first the pope was involved in excommunicating nestorius the patriach of constantinople when he fell into heresy, constantinople later fell into heresy again was was excommunicated. Different political and doctrinal issue later broke d carmels back and led to d 11th century mutual excommunication.

saintlawr:
The first organised Churches for Christ was called The Catholic Church. The believes of The Catholic Church are different from today Roman Catholic Church..

The Romans Catholic Church was the Catholic Church that was formed in Rome and many doctrine of Rome was added to the Doctrine of the Church of Christ..
Confession of sins to fellow man was popularly practice in Rome.. They confess to the Emperor for leniency this was added to the Catholic Church and many others..

sorry dear, go and make ur research, confession is taught in d bible and all ancient churches practiced it, both in alexandria, constinople e.t.c.

parisbookaddict:
OLAADEGBU is too blinded by conspiracies about the catholic church to answer you objectively.

nobody should be above criticism, but at least criticize with facts and not hearsay or unfounded rumours. OLAADEGBU does Not understand that in this regard.

ola is a classic case of distructive indoctrination, he has some sites he visits and anything he hears there become law. He will never doubt it or bother to use his brain to critique it.

The guy he is reading from is a conspiracy theorist who once said that d vatican has a very big computer that contains all the information of every protestant in world and that in some time in d future d vatican wil try to kill all protestants.
Even after reading such nonesense ola wil not use his brain.

The naira weakened 20 percent to a record low of 206.32 per dollar in the year through Feb. 12. Extra curbs introduced by Emefiele after that slashed trading in the interbank market and have seen the currency stabilize at an average of 198.93 since the beginning of February.

Op, the topic of ur thread is incorrect. The pope isn't making it easy to get a divorce. He simply revised the annulment process. There is a difference.

SirWere:
I'm sorry to any catholic person on NL buh, Catholicism has been destroying and degrading the name of christ since the Middle Ages

how does ur comment concern the topic.

Edited

5solas:
Definitely not taught in the same way. In Luther's view, grace comes so free that no amount of endeavouring towards good is necessary.

even catholic will agree that salvific grace is free and preceeds works, i believe aminian will say the same.

What do u mean by "no endeavoring towards good is neccesary"?

Definitely not true, Catholics have been screaming freewill since A.D 1525 while Arminians since about A.D 1590. Both groups are clearly against predestination.

catholics have been screaming free will before 1525, they have been discussing free will since the time of the apostles. They alway taught that grace and will must work together. Augustine once said "he who created thee without thy help will not justify thee without thy help". That is another very old teaching.

Catholics are not against predestination, neither are lutheran or even arminians. They are against the double predestination of Calvin!

5solas:
Good! It was the song of the reformers.

take a look at what the catholic taught.

On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.


The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the
prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of
the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom

council of trent session 6

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

Council of trent.


That teaching was not new.


And thus according
to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God's sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul <sic> commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God.
And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares,
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29). And again, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of
God" (Eph. 2:. And as the Apostle says of himself, "I have obtained mercy to be faithful" (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, "because I was faithful," but "to be faithful." And again, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17). And again, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from
heaven" (John 3:27).

There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.

Council of orange.

5solas:
Good! It was the song of the reformers.

one funny thing about the reformers was that they tried to sing to the choir.

The catholics were already teaching that so why try to make it seem like a new doctrine?

True. To be precise, (in proper context) can only do good after the salvation experience.

this is another difference btw luther and calvin. Calvin said u have to b regenerated before u can chose to become a Christian and be baptised. Lutherian and even catholic believe in 'predisposing" grace that enables on chose to b a christian. Lutherans believe regeneration occured in baptism.

5solas:
Lol. Definitely not Catholic or Arminian. Too grandiose for them. It is actually called Amyraldism after Moise Amyraut. It sought to unify Calvinist and Arminian views on the extent of the atonement.

I find it suprisingly arrogant and naive that you think the teaching is too grandiose for catholic theologians, when d protestants simply copied and modified catholic views.

Centuries before martin luther, Calvin and Amyraut were born, st Thomas of Aquina taught.
"[Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, efficaciously for some, but sufficiently for all, because the price of his blood is sufficient for the salvation of all; but it has its effect only in the elect."

st thomas aquinas commentary on titus.


I cannot tell u what to believe, but I can give u the facts. I know some calvinist love to think that christianity started with d reformation and that before then there was no real theology but that is not true.

The teaching in question is distinctly catholic, and predates d reformation my centuries, amyraut only copied and modified.

Before d discussion ends u'll see many teaching d reformers borrowed from catholics.

OLAADEGBU:
When I mentioned Theodore I meant Ted the son of Walid Shoebat. It is obvious that he was named after bishop Theodore of Syria that you mentioned. God has always left Himself a witness in every era. Christians were scattered all over the then known world especially Africa before the RCC through the "Muhammadians" forced them with either the Qur'an or the sword just as the Muslims are doing today.

the part you bolded is a quote from bishop theodore. The time bishop Theodore was writting the 'muhammedans' hadn't started fight. Nobody had been "driven" out of anywhere. That was during d time wen islam was in it infancy and theodore was busy combating d arianism dat islam taught.
The catholic church didn't make friends or support islam and its doctrine just as d testimony of theodore shows.

5solas:
Not true. That view is by Moise Amyraut 1596 – 1664, and it is called Amyraldism.

i know u will try to change it.

Catholicism predates amyraldism. Besides mr amyraut borrowed his views from the luther.

Years before amyraut formulated his modification d council of trent had already taught universal atonement and limited salvation
But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated.
council of trent session 6.

Both luther and amyraut borrowed universal atonement from d catholics.
Amyraut tried to modify d teachin of calvin predestination by teaching a form of universal atonement.

Calvin didn't and he was right in virtually all his views.
Calvinism is not about Calvin, get that right, it is about the reformed faith.

calvin was wrong on almost all his views. Jesus did die for all according to scriptures, d atonement is universal in scope. On That among other calvin was wrong.

5solas:
@Ubenedictus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

sorry what was ur point. The article gave a non exhaustive list of the 'calvinist reformers' and didnt talk about the lutherian ones. And noted that calvinist prefer to address themselves as reformed, how does that affect dis discussion?

wytecat:
You can be half man, what do I care?

If you like show letters that were written by Jesus, it won't change anything. You will continue to be beneath Yoruba and live under our shadows. Look around you, what do you see? Your boss in every aspect, your better and superior, the one that opened your eyes and brought civilization to you, the larger than life.

Once big is forever big, and once fake is forever fake.

Empires fall, but remnants are seen, what do you have to show for whatever it was you had? Nothing cos it was an Urban legend.

you can now enjoy your ignorance and arrogance. I do not have the tine for useless banter.

OLAADEGBU:
This quote alone proves that Theodore is a Roman Catholic and I am not surprised that he will go on to defend the Vatican. It's such a pity.

bishop theodore of syria lived around the 8th century. At that time there were no protestants. So ofcourse almost all christians were catholics, only the heretics like d arians who had been excommunicated were non-catholics.

So he is as good a source as any when it comes to islam

morbeta:
Catholic with their there dogmatic ways, my bible says only jesus forgives sins and the only way to life everlasting. How come catholic priest are the ones to forgive sin even the ones they are part of. Na nwa oooooo

you did you read your bible well, you certainly didn't read it completely.
What does Jn 20:23 say in your bible?

5solas:
I doubt he did. I will paste some of his thinking on the matter very soon. He taught a whole lot of things in , ''The bondage of the will''. I doubt he disagreed with Calvin on regeneration. You shouldn't equate Luther's teachings with that of the Lutherans! It seems logical to do so, but I have observed before that the Lutherans (I am informed the latter ones) later deferred from him on predestination. Nonetheless, I will look at the Augsburg Confession and respond to you.

Not true.

You enlightened me on the meaning of the bolded, I thank you. Do Catholics actually teach it that way? I doubt that, because it is a middle position between Calvinism and Arminianism. The Catholic Church has hardly ever shifted its ground on these issues.Rather, Arminianism has always been a middle ground between Catholicism and Calvinism, taking apart as much as it can, the gains of the reformation by its compromises.
Why should Calvin believe that in the Eucharist, the bread and the wine used become the actual body and blood of Christ? If his view was that they were symbolic, which I think it was, I think he was right.

many people are misinformed about Catholicism, the teaching I explained is simple Catholicism, it is not a compromise between anything. That is how Catholics have always taught on the scope of the atonement. Luther adapted the teaching, arminian teach the same.

Calvin got it wrong Jesus said "This is my body" and all Christians for 1500yrs before Calvin have never doubted that he meant exactly what he said. Calvin invented his own new doctrine.

5solas:
Most of the reformers were Calvinistic in their thinking and teaching. This applies to reformers before , during and after Calvin. The Puritans , for example, were Calvinistic.
Do Arminian proponents know how Arminianism came about?
Do they know their origin?

it is a bit arrogant to claim that reformer before Calvin were "Calvinist". Calvin agrees with a few other reformers but that doesn't make them Calvinist. Luther had a mind of his own, his line of arguements were different and to call him "calvinist" is funny.

5solas:
@Ubenedictus
Luther's summary on the ''part'' a man's will plays for his salvation.

http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm

that view if properly understood is actually catholic and is the same with the arminians. That human will cannot desire on it own or do good on it own is the very basics of our need for salvation.

Human will is not "free" strictly speaking, we fell in adam so without grace the human will is encouraged to sin and can not do "good", with grace human will is encourage to virtue and can do good, that was the point Luther made above.

That passage properly understood is exactly taught by both catholics and arminian. Infact it is a dogma in catholicism, that is d 1st canon of d council of trent on justification.


That quote is not even an issue to arminian, lutherans or Catholics.

The one that causes disagreement is irresistable grace, lutherans reject that teaching, arminians reject it too, catholics too, but Calvin teaches it. That is the strong issue.

MzNelly:
Hmmn.

Ex Jw?

no dear.

I did grow up with a lot of watch tower articles, (i have an aunt and cousins who are witness)

wytecat:
I never said that and you DUMBO aren't going to put word in my mouth.

What I said is that, an Etsako man told me that there are Yoruba speaking villages around him. And if this man told me just as I said it, from now on, you will be called a liar for every truth you say by young, old, men and women until the end of your life. You foools don't know that not everyone tells lies.

you are now denying your own words?

It's still the same low self-esteem that's making you take whatever the Oba might have said out of context just like Awujale who said Ijebu aren't Yoruba, only Yoruba understand what he said.

i didn't take anything off context go make your own research.

Open your eyes and look around you, there's nothing to show that your Bini, I mean the Bini of your dreams was ever more than an Urban Legend and a myth. It never happened.

people like Oba Akiolu remind me it is not an urban myth, all the records of the europeans who visited in the 16th century remind me it is not a myth, the oral traditions of the Esan, itsekiri...people, even d lagos people who were part of the bini empire remind me it is not a myth.