₦airaland Forum

@enigma this is neither the time or place for that. Permit of to ignore.

@enigma, i could go on the defensive and i'm certainly not scared to have all the my post on nairaland brought forward and examined piece by piece so my unsavoury acts may be revealed. I could also ask you to get off your high horse as your posts on catholicism are hardly charitable. Heck, i'll love to go thru so much story with you till we understand ourselves and loving tolerate each other even when we totally disagree. But this isn't the time or place for that discourse. Permit of to postpone this discussion. @all happy solemnity of christ the universal king. Enthrone him in your life and he will lift your past been a servant, he will make you a friend and then a brother, if he reigns in ur life then he shall cause you to reign with him. Peace to you all.

Hello @ all, hope ur day was peacefull. @danmerry nice rules, please permit me to break them one last time. @enigma, i noticed you tagged alonged, i also noticed you think i uncharitably brought you here to be slandered, i'm sorry if you think so. I actually asked that question after waving a white flag on d other thread, a white flag you actually stuck up my a$$ metaphorically. I don't hate you, i don't dislike you, but i do feel your post on the catholic church are most times filled with half truths often times twisted and added a little unwholesome sacasm and turned into a monologue to give the impression that catholics are liars. On a day when i'm chanced i would love a polite discussion with you, but not today and this thread isn't tailored for such discourse. If you feel maligned by me in any way then accept my sincere and deepest apology but please kindly keep away arguementative posts from this thread as i wouldn't want to disturb the others with my banter when they are supposed to be resting.
Thank u all

Wow, so you say u are not a catholic, what them are you doing in a catholic only thread?

Enigma: Thank you, but you need to be clear on that! I am not part of the Roman Catholic Church ---- only the catholic i.e. universal Church.



You and your friends are dishonest and in any event historically Roman Catholic arguments have always been based on lies and fraud.

The problem of you and your friend is that in me you run into someone more than capable of both exposing and debunking Roman Catholic fraud and falsehoods!



I do not wish to discuss anything. I post whatever I feel necessary whereever and whenever.

Enigma: OK my crybaby takes the invitation of Ubenedictus to insult me (behind my back) in their enclave. Well I am not afraid of coming to the Roman Catholic enclave.

Meanwhile this is the same mumu dunce of a crybaby that I thoroughly schooled on his ignorance about his own Roman Catholic organisation's rubbish doctrine of papal "infallibility" ---- even with documents that the mumu supplied!

wow d newest addition goes on an insultive rampage, how do we handle this uh?

E newest catholic in our midst welcome.

Enigma: @Ubenedictus

I have deliberately stayed out of this thread out of respect -- to allow Roman Catholics to have their space.

You are now inviting insults to my person --- and thus you are inviting me to the thread.

Anyway, let me first give you a bonus: Honorius was condemned as a heretic by a Council and by other "popes". What is more, successive popes for several years had to declare in their 'Profession of Faith' that Honorius was a heretic before they could take office.

i actually brought it up becos ur methods seem insincere at best and i really need a charitable way to deal with your monologues with half truths. Do u wish to discuss honorius? And to what end?

Syncan: I always believe in 382 AD as the date.

so what about the canons before 382ad?

Syncan: Dearest, the boy is just incorrigible, He quotes from a biased historian who is out to paint the church black no matter what. His manner of speech is appalling and he cares not about christian charity in his speech. I simply ignore him as he copies and pastes along. The only Input he makes in his posts seem to be the insulting contents. His posts are filled with twisted half truths, while he keeps shouting obscenities against Catholics. How do you deal with someone who has so much "info", and still remains an Anglican...with its infamous origin. It simply tells you the person is not honest, so Ignore. Or if you care, refute without caring about his comments.

unfortunately i can only refute an arguement that has a face, enigma says little truths and cloud them with lies, he doesn't discuss he just tells u he thinks you are a liar. I can make a discussion a conversation a dialogue, i dont know what to do with a monologue.

Syncan: Na only three times you call me o, ohoo, you see, na fela talk am sef.

lol, u no serious oh.

adsonstone: you have said well.

The birth of water and the spirit is for christians.....Jesus told Nicodemus when he was explaining 'being born again'.

And regarding the eucharist, does your statement mean that any christian that doesnt take it is unsaved (and perhaps, will go to hell)?

i actually put the quote on 'born again' and that on the eucharist to emphasized the necessity of the sacraments as it is called in d west or e mysteries for salvation not to say one who doesn't take the eucharist is unsaved. My principle remain the church is a necessity for all who know her. All who know d truth in her and willfully seperate themselves may forget salvation. Becos d means me salvation and the fullness of the faith are found in her.

Now a more interesting question. Wen was d catholic canon set?

Sal C: Pardon my curiousity but is it possible for a pope to keep mute over raging issues during his papacy and not held accountable for them?

he wasn't mute, he took a middle road. Instead of declaring with authority, he said be careful about both phrase. Who knows maybe posterity will say d same for poses like john 23.

Let me take a little diversion. What is d right way to deal with the guy called enigma. D guy don tire me small. E prefer to call me liar than discuss with me. Weytin una think?

Syncan: I am sorry for me o abeg. Who said that your name end with us, Sal C is it you? Pls no vex, no be your type of "us".

syncan. Syncan syncan. How many times did i call you? U were playing fella with me abi? Who kill dele giwa na baba who come put gida na him know. Who cause d trouble na 'us' who come put ubenedict na him know abi.

adsonstone: If I may ask, what exactly does the bold mean and how is it of the church?

the rebirth of water nd d holy spirit isn't for judaism or any other sect, it belongs to the church as established by christ on the apostles. What part do you not understand. Another quote will be, 'unless u eat my body and drink my blood you shall have no life in you' it is the church that is given e power to make bread and wine the body and blood of christ.

adsonstone: regarding the bold

sorry, where did they teach this?

If its in the bible, can you please, give the references.

the place they taught that 'unless you are born of water and the holy spirit you cant enter d kingdom of God' the birth of water and spirit is of the church.

Enigma: Oh, by the way, these questions remain of course.

1. Is the Anglican Church --- a Church?
2. Is the Methodist Church --- a Church?
3. Is the Baptist Church --- a Church?

dat depends on how you define 'church'.

Sal C: So in other words he was condemned for not speaking out against heresies?

dis question is so complex that i cant even answer yes or no to it.

Enigma: Follow up to my last post:

One of them raised the "Council of Florence" with me recently. For all their modern talk of "separated brethren", here is something from the Council of Florence.

"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."

Tell me that is not to be disparaged and ridiculed!

the neccesity of the church didn't start from florence, cyprian, augustine, Jesus and paul are just a few who taught that the church was necessary for salvation. I taught you knew that from your readings of the church father or did you simply pass over it wen reading?

Since you want to go there

Enigma: @Gombs

All of them Roman Catholics cannot deny when I was begging them that we should avoid fight --- even when they were raining very bad insults at me.

Moreover, Roman Catholic doctrine is such that it is difficult to discuss without disparaging their claims. Look at just two of their starting positions:

1. No one can be saved unless he submits to the authority of the Roman Catholic "pope".
2. Those who reject the "primacy" and "infallibility" of the Roman Catholic "pope" are heretics and are anathema!

With that starting position, how can one argue with them without disparaging their claims? And it is made worse when we know that Roman Catholic claims are not only based on lies but also on deliberately forged documents that they use to try and support the lies.

These are facts --- not even insults or disparagement even though I don't deny that I now present these facts in both sarcastic and disparaging ways.

Let me show you a sign of some the progress that the vigorous challenge approach has made: some of them here are now careful about calling other people's assemblies as "shops"; until very recently they effectively did it on a daily basis!

many 'churches' truly are business for some pastors, you may want to deny it but it is true. And there are some pastors who want to really, sincerely and honestly teach people the "word of God" at least as they understand it. Even so i can say i have never refered to anyones worshipping community as a shop, even if i may have good reasons to do so. Your generalising doesn't work well.

Really? Dont worry i wont defend myself even thought i know i could. Just tell me.

Gombs: Umm Ubenecdictus....Enigma's right

I can fish out thread where your fellow brothers were on rampage insulting ALL that is not catholic, and you were part of the thread, and NEVER called for civility or called them to order. Now, it's pinching you and you raising a white flag.

Have you seen the venom of Chukwudi or Sal C or PopeII etc?

Anyways, enigma hit the brakes, let's just be plain and void of sarcastic verbs and adverbs.

how many wrongs make a right?

Enigma: ^^^ Look, "move forward" in whatever way you like. When I see you constantly telling your fellow Roman Catholics to stop calling people heretics, bastards and saying their "assemblies" are not "church" etc etc etc, I might just take you seriously.

As for my posts, you don't tell me what to do. I will post whatever and in what manner will make my points effective for the intended audience.

When your fellow Roman Catholics have been "in fighting mood" (which is very frequently), where were you?

Abeg, make I hear word!

so b it. I don try.

Syncan: Sorry Sal C, I could not come back till now. However, I no start anything ma'am, all those involved in the matter get "us" as suffix for their names, honorius, sergius, theodorus...if you check our names, you go see who im own end for "us", na that person you go hold o.

no be for my mouth you wan hear am.

eh eh! So na my name end with us abi? So na me cause am? Syncan i don begin vex.

Syncan: Pope honorius did not "teach" heresy. He merely failed to condemn one, hence did not stop, even encouraged, its spreading by his silence. Moreso, he never claimed his stand on the matter was binding on all catholics, which is a pre-requsite for infallibility as I earlier stated.
He neither made his opinion binding on all, nor condemned the other opinion. Infallibility claim cannot be invoked here.

This is to the best of my knowledge.

good job, weldn, 1st it is hard to prove pope honorius taught heresy. 2nd a pope posses infallibility only when he teach in his office as universal teacher, and when he publicly pronunces a binding doctrine for the entire church. Honorius wasn't excerising infallibility so his case can't be used to disprove papal infallibility.

Abeg make una help me confirm e b like say sal c say 12 no too much. Abeg i read am well?

Sal C: Me think you heard me, 12 is not much.

Enigma: No be by force! You can choose to ignore my posts; afterall some of the Roman Catholics here claim they don't read my posts!

But of course when the Roman Catholic posters are calling people heretics, bastards etc and throwing all manner of insults and telling blatant LIES you don't see any of that.

so you have NEVER read in any thread watsoever that i advocated for more politeness among my catholic brothers? @Italo please will you address the claim that i never advocated for politeness with my catholic brother. If ur accusations are true, i'll like to ask you how many wrongs make a right? Besides thus far in this thread you are the only person who seem to be in a fighting mood. Please check urself and let us move forward.

Enigma: A "majority" --- yeah, like the majority of the "Tridentine fathers" who voted for the Roman Catholic Bible and Apocrypha by

25 in favour
15 against
16 abstained

Whereas the vast majority over more than a thousand years said that the Apocrypha is not part of the canon!

Oh and like the "majority" who did not see Matthew 16 (and equivalents) as giving Rome some "jurisdiction" or "supremacy"!

my dear, your blend of sacasm doesn't make for a discussion it makes for a mudslingling parade, a free for all fight. I abstain frm such. If you wish to make a discussion kindly and politely do so, if you can only use sacasm and well conceal insults then weldn.

adsonstone: alright then.
We're moving fine so far.

If all traditions' principles are found in the bible and the only one left out is the NT itself, now, those who use the bible (applying its principles) and make use of the NT (having exactly 27 books), can it be concluded that they follow tradition?

in a sense they follow tradition, atleast in using 27 books, but using 27 books isn't the only tradition. Accepting one and throwing away the rest is hypocrisy.

kcjazz: Nice thread so far...

Meanwhile my question is... Since the Catholic church is regarded as the "one true "church, whats the churches stand on other Christians (secessionists) making heaven?

he is condemned if he knows d truth but freely rejects it and refuses to hold it. For those who do not know then mercy of God is there.

Enigma: A propos the book of Maccabees, here are just two major Roman Catholics who state that they are not in the "Bible" or canon.


Jerome:

"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."


Per "pope" Gregory I or Gregory the Great

Just before referring to the Maccabees, he said

“With reference to which particular we are not acting irregularly, if from the books, though not Canonical, yet brought out for the edifying of the Church, we bring forward testimony.”

There are still many others we can point to .............

Meanwhile the lies about Carthage have been exposed on other threads, if necessary all I have to do is copy and paste from one made earlier.

for posterity you should give links, don't just say he said, and the polite thing to do is ask why this is this not claim "they are liars".

DrummaBoy: It is my hope that Pentecostals can read this thread and see what the error of General Overseerism can lead; from the way Roman Catholics have turned Christ's innocuous words to Peter to Him ordaining peter a pope with possibility of a successor. Indeed the Reformation is the greatest to Christ body following His first coming. I have heard of Catholic theologians but not read any. I praise Italo; atleast he knows what he saying... Not like these Pentecostals - I will reserve names for now.

the fact that the apostles have successors isn't an assumption it is a fact and is back by both scriptures, church history and the testimony of the early church. Don't simply make an unfounded assumption. And lastly there have always been catholic theologians, we probably invented theology as an academic discipline years befor the luther revolted, even luther studied theology under sumbody.

adsonstone: my answer: NO

Kindly re-read Italo's post that prompted that reply.

By the way, He has replied and his respose is quite satisfactory.

forgive me dear, it seems i misunderstood you.