₦airaland Forum

It seems oga enigma forgot d topic at hand.
@enigma, it seems u speak with a bit hate hidden under d tongue, for some time now all u see among catholic are liars and fraudsters, even in a thread with d above topic ur accusations seem more important than addressing d op, it gives d impression dat u hate.

[quote author=Mr. Aladin]somebody Tell my elder sister say my matanal ancestors beinq dey worship mermaid so the mermaid expect their decendant to continue worshipping them but reverse is the case it started causing havoc in d family.
Even my big sis her married is at brink of collapsing.
She don get more than 5 miscarriage[/quote]d gospel d other day was if u have faith u can say to d tree 'b moved and planted in d sea', you were on my mind, speak to ur situation, tel it to be uprooted and planted in d sea, it must obey u.

babestell: So today I attended mass in The Hague Netherlands, fortunately it was in the international parish so mass was in english not Dutch..
Nobody covers their hair here even the teenage girls who were serving mass, the choir was really nice, they used an organ and the music was on point. Next week is their food fair what we would call baazar and the priest allowed one if the harvest committee members to preach homily, tying in today's reading to the food fair, the proceeds of the fair will go to different charities all over the world. During consecration most people stood infact I noticed it was only the africans who knelt down. During the Our Father, the whole church held hands....I thought that was really sweet. Apart from that every thing was the same, I could as well have been in Mater or St Dominics. A sign of the unity of the Holy Church, a unity which has lastdd 2000years and will continue till the end of time.
Because of the food fair next week, fada kept talking about food and that made me hungry , plus the cold is crazy.
Unfortunately I didnt get the priest name.

d priest abused d liturgy.

@chidima, i just read up italo's link, it should provide you the needed points.
@aladin, do you have a specific prayer request?
@all happy sunday.

it seems my mb is finished, i'll begin tomorrow.

HolyHolla: Qoute where he said it, please. I know the age-old trick of putting words in the opponent's mouth, which you have been playing with me too.

this is what he said

So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both PURIFY and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13.

Sal C: Sedevacantist

if u are having a debate with a sedecaventist, i'll gladly offer backup.

HolyHolla: The difference? Well everybody else reading this would notice the difference, which is that I NEVER wrote "purification by imperfect works" nor agreed to any type of "purification after death". I'm even alien to any such thought, which I find ridiculous. How can the Bible that says nothing happens between death and judgement also go ahead to talk of a purification after death. That is contradictory.

I only wrote about the Day of Judgement of the Saints. They are not being "purified" at that time, their works are being judged for rewards. After death, only judgement, one to the unrighteous for punishment and the other to the Saints to determine their rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven. We shall all be judged. Paul says it clearly:

Rom. 14: 10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

2Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Please spare me if I have no more responses in this discussion stream. It's not out of rudeness if you don't read from me on this topic, even if you prod me. Honestly, I don't engage in arguments and my facts are clearly laid down so far.

your friend mavister said there is purification after death, i also quoted his post and ask you if you agreed you said something of d resemblance of yes.
Are you saying you disagree with mavister and there is no purification after death?

HolyHolla: The difference? Well everybody else reading this would notice the difference, which is that I NEVER wrote "purification by imperfect works" nor agreed to any type of "purification after death". I'm even alien to any such thought, which I find ridiculous. How can the Bible that says nothing happens between death and judgement also go ahead to talk of a purification after death. That is contradictory.

I only wrote about the Day of Judgement of the Saints. They are not being "purified" at that time, their works are being judged for rewards. After death, only judgement, one to the unrighteous for punishment and the other to the Saints to determine their rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven. We shall all be judged. Paul says it clearly:

Rom. 14: 10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

2Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Please spare me if I have no more responses in this discussion stream. It's not out of rudeness if you don't read from me on this topic, even if you prod me. Honestly, I don't engage in arguments and my facts are clearly laid down so far.

your friend mavister said there is purification after death, i also quoted his post and ask you if you agreed you said something of d resemblance of yes.
Are you saying you disagree with mavister and there is no purification after death?

HolyHolla: The difference? Well everybody else reading this would notice the difference, which is that I NEVER wrote "purification by imperfect works" nor agreed to any type of "purification after death". I'm even alien to any such thought, which I find ridiculous. How can the Bible that says nothing happens between death and judgement also go ahead to talk of a purification after death. That is contradictory.

I only wrote about the Day of Judgement of the Saints. They are not being "purified" at that time, their works are being judged for rewards. After death, only judgement, one to the unrighteous for punishment and the other to the Saints to determine their rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven. We shall all be judged. Paul says it clearly:

Rom. 14: 10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

2Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Please spare me if I have no more responses in this discussion stream. It's not out of rudeness if you don't read from me on this topic, even if you prod me. Honestly, I don't engage in arguments and my facts are clearly laid down so far.

your friend mavister said there is purification after death, i also quoted his post and ask you if you agreed you said something of d resemblance of yes.
Are you saying you disagree with mavister and there is no purification after death?

HolyHolla: The difference? Well everybody else reading this would notice the difference, which is that I NEVER wrote "purification by imperfect works" nor agreed to any type of "purification after death". I'm even alien to any such thought, which I find ridiculous. How can the Bible that says nothing happens between death and judgement also go ahead to talk of a purification after death. That is contradictory.

I only wrote about the Day of Judgement of the Saints. They are not being "purified" at that time, their works are being judged for rewards. After death, only judgement, one to the unrighteous for punishment and the other to the Saints to determine their rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven. We shall all be judged. Paul says it clearly:

Rom. 14: 10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

2Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Please spare me if I have no more responses in this discussion stream. It's not out of rudeness if you don't read from me on this topic, even if you prod me. Honestly, I don't engage in arguments and my facts are clearly laid down so far.

your friend mavister said there is purification after death, i also quoted his post and ask you if you agreed you said something of d resemblance of yes.
Are you saying you disagree with mavister and there is no purification after death?

Mrlouis: oga hope u visited that site.cos ur not even sure of what ur saying.

i simply gave u d background of d story

You have decided to propose a topic you know nothing about!

Mrlouis: oga stop being a pretender. I myself paid dues when i was a catholic ok? It doesnt even happen only here in nigeria.

first there is nothing like church dues, in the catholic church and you can not be denied a sacrament becos of money, canon law forbids it. In uk, nigeria, usa and many other countries there is nothing like church dues, and you cant b denied sacrament becos of money. If u paid anything as a catholic, it is most posibly because u join a voluntary organisation, whatever u pay to d organisations go to them not d parish or d diocese.

Chack dis
Germany’s Catholics told to pay church tax or no sacraments
http://www.thejournal.ie/germany-catholic-church-tax-608480-Sep2012/
so if they can do that, how much more not burying the dead. U need more examples?

u are speaking of what u know nothing about.
In germany d government has a % of tax for religious person. Simply put if i am working in germany the govermt will remove tax from my salary including religious tax, % of d tax revenue is shared to d different religion and denomination, even to protestant churches. To evade religious tax you have to swear affidavit dat you are no longer a member of a religion.
D bible says if u deny b4 men i'll deny u b4 my father. All who have swore affidavit that they are nolonger catholic cant recieve catholic sacrament. If you say u are not a christian then dont expect a christian burial.
Now back to d topic at hand.

obadiah777: Ube whats good ? you as scarce as a vegetarian in an isi ewu peppersoup joint

my dear i've been busy, it seems am a bit free this week.

HolyHolla: I notice that while querying the matter of purification as written by Mavista, you were only twisting his words. Everyone knows there's difference between purification by fire after death in a Purgatory and purification of the individual's works on the Day of Judgement of the Saints. It's the latter that Mavista wrote about, while you insist on the former. The Bible authoritatively states that it is appointed for all men to die once, and AFTER comes the judgement. Nothing comes in between.

The Holy Spirit can only speak to a heart that is willing to learn, not one already filled with hard doctrines of men.
Blessings to y'all for the interesting discourse. Everyone tried, but Mavista won my heart.

you never cease to interest me.
Pray! tell me dear ma, what is the difference between purification of d elect as though by fire and the purification of imperfection?
I'm happy we can agree that there is purification after death, now please tell, what is d seemingly difference between, purification as though by fire and the purification of imperfect works?

This is what your gallant soldier said[b]So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both PURIFY and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.[/b]
do you agree with him that there is a final purification after death?

HolyHolla: @ mavister, you have fought a good fight. This is turning into endless arguments with noone ready to submit. You have made the necessary points on the issue at hand with a lot of decorum and I think it's time to get off the stream. Gallant soldier of Christ, you've won a high respect.

mavister: The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

i bring forth your words as testimony again you.
So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both PURIFY and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13.
you admitted above that scripture teaches the believer undergoes final purification before entrance into heaven, how can you admit that d bible teaches dat d believer undergoes final purification and then go on to deny it. DO YOU have two mouths.

What are the three steps of the Christian walk and do they have anything to do with purgatory?
Step 1 - Justification - Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. When you do this, it is "just-as-if-I" never sinned. Justification removes you from the penalty of sin. This is a free ticket to heaven. You don't have to endure a purifying fire beforehand.
Step 2 - Sanctification - Leading a life according to the Spirit as opposed to leading a life according to the world. Sanctification sets you apart from the world. The world should be able to look at your life and see that you "are not of the world". This is a lifelong process. Sanctification removes you from the power of sin. The closer you walk with God, the less tempting sin is.
Step 3 - Purification - No, you don't go to a room with a cleansing fire to be purified. You are purified when God calls you home to heaven and removes you from the very presence of sin. Purification is the blessed hope that all Christians await. Christians are not afraid of death...they know they are going to heaven.Imagine the fear of death when someone believes they must first go to a place of torment before they get to heaven. How can they be comforted when death approaches? Why would anyone even want to be a part of such a teaching?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Often, the apocryphal books are also called upon to make the case for purgatory. Some basic problems exist with the apocryphal books:
- No author of an apocryphal book ever claimed to be a prophet.
- No author of an apocryphal book was confirmed by any miraculous works of God.
- No author of an apocryphal book is ever quoted by any of the prophets in Scripture.
- Even the Jews acknowledged that the prophetic gifts had ceased by the time the earliest was written (400 BC).If the Jews didn't accept them, why would we?
In summary, we have a massive problem with sin. Purgatory just isn't enough to deal with it. Only Christ can pay my sin-debt.

when i have finished addressing you double speech, i'll address ur ignorance abt d deuterocanonical.

@ mavister, instead of a long arguement, i'll simply hold you to your word. You have already admitted it that bible say some will be purified before entrance into heaven.
You cant say that some will be purified b4 entering heaven and still claim that there is no purgatory unless you are mad. I'll like to assume that you are not mad, so please make up your mind, are believer purified of their impecfection or not.

Paul goes on to say that unless a person builds upon the foundation of Jesus, his work will be burned up the in the day of judgment (v. 13). See also, 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14; 1 Thess. 5:2).
Paul is simply using the terms that are familiar with the people of the time. Fire was the tool used to purify metals and to get rid of that which was unwanted, the dross. So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both purify and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.
1 Cor. 3:15does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on "that day." Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw. What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved. It has to do with rewards in heaven.So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both PURIFY and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.

amen, amen, amen, what you explained above, is the catholic church teaching on purgatory, on the day of judgement your worth will be revealed, before you reach heaven the hay and straws (human imperfection) must be purged out, even if it is burnt you'll still be saved but 2 thing will happen 1st you'll suffer loss, 2nd you'll "escape as though by fire".
Dear mavister, in simple terms what u explained above is purgatory, the removal of human imperfection b4 entrance into heaven.

six one: You mean the political entity still stands firm?

if this tickles your fancy then open a thread to discuss it. Don't derail.

free radical: Myself and every other catholic here have been trying hard to tell him that this isnt the case as any catholic that deliberately sins because he thinks purgatory can purge his sins after death and lead him to heaven will surely end up in hell but the dude still refuses to listen but prefers to rage on about how the catholic church is doing dis and doing dat and spreading false gospel. Just leave the dude he's not here to learn but spread anti-catholic propaganda. As if say na today we don dey hear all this things we he dey yarn

cool down and read his post. If you are not calm enough you'll fail to recognise when he unknowingly teach the exact thing the was condeming.

mavister: paul goes on to say that unless a person builds upon the foundation of Jesus, his work will be burned up the in the day of judgment (v. 13). See also, 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14; 1 Thess. 5:2).
Paul is simply using the terms that are familiar with the people of the time. Fire was the tool used to purify metals and to get rid of that which was unwanted, the dross. So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both purify and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.
1 Cor. 3:15does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on "that day." Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both PURIFY and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.

amen, amen, amen, what you explained above, is the catholic church teaching on purgatory, on the day of judgement your worth will be revealed, before you reach heaven the hay and straws (human imperfection) must be purged out, even if it is burnt you'll still be saved but 2 thing will happen 1st you'll suffer loss, 2nd you'll "escape as though by fire".
Dear mavister, in simple terms what u explained above is purgatory, the removal of human imperfection b4 entrance into heaven.

Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor. 4:5,"Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of mens' hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God."
Note also, 1 Pet. 1:6-7,"In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,7that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
2 Pet. 3:10-13,"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."

you have just proved purgatory.
You've saved me a lot of trouble, thankyou and weldone.

Thanks very much 4 the answer, are you of the opinion that every believer who died was sinless?

Kei144: My dear Ubenedictus, I am not yet sinless. But I know that we are the generation of followers of Christ who will attain perfection (sinlessness) in the land of the living. God is about to do a quick short work that will last for 1260 days; that is during the first half of the end-time tribulations. During this period, Jesus will open the seals of Revelation 6. Opening of those seals will release tremendous spiritual knowledge that Christians never knew before. The new knowledge will lead to full redemption in Christ. The people who get full redemption will ascend to heaven from the land of the living (rapture).

Re. 5:9 And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Re. 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

The 1260 days of God's quick short work starts in April 2014.

https://www.nairaland.com/1447777/apocalyptic-end-time-begins-2014

Kei144: Ro. 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
Ro. 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

[/i]It is only "by the Spirit" that a person could free himself/herself from sin. The reason why followers of Christ remain imperfect is that they do not now how to free themselves from sin "by the Spirit". Jesus apparently does that for them in Paradise, thereby giving them full redemption.
[i]
1Pe. 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
1Pe. 3:19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
1Pe. 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,


After Jesus Christ died on the cross, He went and preached to spirits in prison through the Spirit; these were spirits of those who died during Noah's flood. What is this prison? Is it Paradise or Hades? Does Jesus still minister to spirits of dead people after His resurrection?

There are many spiritual things we do not yet understand.

beloved, i'm happy you raised this topic on who we are in christ, another day i would gladly go deeply into this topic. Suffice to ask, kei144 are you now sinless?

alajor: Correct me if I'm wrong abeg...but since I've been reading the bible I've never come across these words...purgatory, chaplet. Don't know where those pple got these words from. Do you? Hell I know, Heaven I know, purgatory,I don't.

i have been reading the bible and i have never saw the word bible or trinity there.
I believe the same place they got the word bible from, is where they got purgatory from.
Have a nice day.

HolyHolla: I tried to read each and every submission on this thread and what I've noticed is a group who believe in a concept applying every means available to scorn, ridicule and jibe at others who dare express any deviant view(s).

So far, I find no substance in the arguments put foward in support of Purgatory and in the far-fetched biblical and sometimes uncannonical references with human traditions forcibly applied to justify unsubstantiated opinions arising from machinations to control others. Is there someone who's ready for Christian Apologetics without insult and rancour? Please join me in discussing.

Perhaps we all need to go back and study to understand:

1. The origin(s) of the concept of Purgatory since all evidence found from practices and beliefs of early Christians expressed clearly a concept of judgment immediately after death as contained in Heb 9:27 which says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Anyone may please disprove this by quoting early Christian writings, apart from Gnostic books, and Maccabees, justifying the concept of Purgatory, which should be differentiated from a concept of merely praying for the dead on their journey to the after world)
2. Gnostics' contribution to the concept of Purgatory and their link to the concept of reincarnation since the Gnostics were the first to propose the doctrine in NT times, which was supressed by the Early Church until it was sanctioned by the Council of Trent in 1031 BC and resurrected in Catholic scholars' writings between 1170 and 1200 BC. Please once again, let us refrain from confusing "Purgatory" with the simple concept of praying for the dead which is as old as 4th Century BC
3. The relationship of Purgatory to paganistic and/or unChristian religions such as Bhuddism, Taoism, Cults of Ishtar, Cult of Nimrod and Semiramis, Greek Pantheon Religions, African Traditional Religions, Islam and many others who also believe in the same concept
3. The origin of citation of Purgatory in Africa (I'm sure this was not developed by an African, and if it was an African that sited Purgatory in Europe, the whites would have employed every argument possible for a disclaimer instead of embracing it)
4. Apostle Paul in 1Corinthians 3:11-15 wrote:
"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus . Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved , yet so as by fire."
This does not justify the doctrine of Purgatory as the singular reference to "...for the day of the Lord shall declare it.." tells us that this message is relevant to the Day of Judgement of the Saints, not a place or time of recluse in a place of purging
5. What if purgatory really doesn’t exist? Then, we would have succeeded in decieving people with a hope that their little sins don't matter instead of gearing them to righteouness in preparation for Heaven.

Please, I will appreciate if any responses are devoid of the usual insults, scorn and hate which are completely against Christian ethical relationships.

please would you mind starting a thread with the above, i'll love to discuss d above at considerable length.

obadiah777: nah Sal. this here topic is about purgatory. we are talking about being purged in the wilderness

i agree

obadiah777: nah Sal. this here topic is about purgatory. we are talking about being purged in the wilderness

i agree

Richieboyn: hahahaha, ubenedictus speaking pidgin. LOL!!

weytin b ur own na? Na so my pidgin bad?

Incrizz: There was a debate on this issue and there is a write-up I read somewhere that intelligibly helps to express my take on this seeming "error" as some have put it.
Here's is my answer in this write-up:

Claimed Error: In Exodus 20:4, we see the widely known prohibition in the Ten Commandments to make no graven image, yet in Exodus 25:18, God commands Moses to prepare two golden cherubim (i.e. graven images) to sit atop the Ark of the covenant.

The very simple answer to this "contradiction" is merely to point out that the critic apparently has not bothered to read Exodus 20:4 in context.

Quite clearly, the very next verse (v.5) provides the stipulated purpose for the prohibition on graven images - which is that they are not to be bowed down to and worshipped.

This commandment prohibits idols and other artefacts to which man might be tempted to ascribe the glory and place of God. This commandment does not prohibit the making of all statuary or other artistic representations of men, animals, etc. It merely forbids the use of visual images for worship or as aids in worship - to help one "imagine" God or through which the attention of worship might be directed.

Worshippers of God are to know that His children walk by faith, and not by sight. It is demeaning to the worship of God to create an image and then use it as a visual representation of God or as a way of "reaching" God.

Thus, all idols are forbidden, as would things like crucifices, statues of Mary or the saints, and even artistic pictures of Jesus (if the picture is being used as an aid in worship).

Any graven image which is made to be bowed down to or is used to help one envision or pray to God is covered in this commandment.

However, "graven images" in the more general sense of artistic adornment and what not are quite clearly not covered in the stipulating addendum of verse 5.

This is why the 2nd commandment is not then in contradiction with Exodus 25:18. The cherubim on the ark of the covenant were not produced for the purpose of serving as a worship aid to Israel.

There was no intention for them to be bowed down to or used as a channel for envisioning or reaching God. Their purpose was didactic (to teach God's holiness as they symbolically guarded the mercy seat) and artistic.

Indeed, other than on very exceptional occasions early in Israel's history (such as when the Ark was brought out to go before an army, etc.), the Ark was hidden from view in the Tabernacle, and then later in the Temple.

In the Temple, only the High Priest could enter into the Holiest of Holies where the Ark was located, and then only once a year to make atonement for the nation. Hence, it would not have even been available most of the time to serve as a worship aid, even if the people had desired to use it for such.

Indeed, the Bible does record an instance where a graven artefact which had originally been produced for a non-worship purpose began to be revered and worshipped, and was thus destroyed as an idol.

This would be the brazen serpent produced by Moses in Numbers 21:8-9.

The Bible records in II Kings 18:4, the children of Israel had begun to burn incense to the brazen serpent (apparently preserved as a treasured national artifact), thus going beyond merely acknowledging its place in their history and into an act of outright worship of the image.

Because of this, King Hezekiah broke the image into pieces during his campaign to rid Judah of idolatry. This shows, then, the dichotomy which exists Scripturally between mere artistic, graven works, and those works which are used as aids in worship or even as replacements for God in worship. The brazen serpent was perfectly fine until it began to be misused as an object of worship, and then it became an idol to be destroyed

please make up your mind. 1st you say no one should make any image, now u are saying they can make an image so far they dont look at it.
Toss a coin or something, just make a choice and stand by it instead of hopping on one foot.

[quote author=Imobus 爱]Miloslav with the skull of Saint Vaclav
https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Russian_Orthodox/skull_worship-catholic.jpg

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Russian_Orthodox/catholic-all_seeing_eye.jpg
Above is an Orthodox Catholic church found in Poland. Notice Satan's all seeing eye at the top. It’s in Zamosciu, Poland and the pope visited it a few years ago. It is in a shape of a triangle with a big Horus eye on top. On the church it is written: "Big Hope"

All seeing Eye - Believed to be the eye of Lucifer and those who claim control of it have control of world finances (as seen on the back of a one dollar bill). Used in divination. Hexes, curses, psychic control and all corruption are worked through this emblem. This one is a symbol of the Illuminati. Look at U.S. currency.[/quote]you need to do more research, an equilateral triangle is the symbol of the trinity. An eye within an equilateral triangle is the symbol of divine omniscience, do some research.

[quote author=Imobus 爱]"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists (Popes and priests); whereby we know that it is the last time" —1st John 2:18

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color (official Vatican colors), and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls (the Vatican is filthy rich), having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations (the Holocaust, inquisitions, etc.) and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY (very few people realize where the Catholic religion started), BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS (who seduce people into their damnable religion) AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” —Revelation 17:4,5[/quote]which holocaust are you talking about?

You claim catholics teach salvation by works, pls can you provide catholic source that teach salvation by works?

[quote author=Imobus 爱]The "Bent Cross" is a grotesque emaciated depiction of Jesus Christ, the only Son of God who died to provide salvation for those who believe in Him. This scepter is used by the Popes on many occasions. Its occult ramifications and connections cannot be disregarded.

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/bentcross.jpg
Pope John Paul II with frontal view of the Bent Cross.
https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/bentcross4.jpg
Pope John Paul II with side view of the Bent Cross[/quote]again i ask you to cool off, your love for criticism is coulding your reason ability, d cross used by johnpaul in those photographs isn't the bent cross, that is actually a more exact reprentation of the cross. Christ died on a wooden cross not a concrete pole, wood is affected by wether and isn't exactly straight. A wooden cross wont be exactly straight.

Notice the Catholic religion calls herself a woman. The Bible calls Catholicism a LovePeddler, and what a GREAT LovePeddler she is—committing spiritual fornication with the kings and rulers of the earth (nearly every king throughout history has had some type of political, economic or religious ties with the Vatican)

so economic and political 'ties' are in and of themselves sinful?