₦airaland Forum

chiteny: Frosbel, do you by chance have two ID's with one named Fr0sbel and the other Frosbel?

i think they are two different people.

OLAADEGBU: This is not speculation but facts except you don't want to be disturbed by it. Here are the facts.

it is a pity, those who cant face the truth go after fairy tales. Ha! It is a pity,

OLAADEGBU: This is not speculation but facts except you don't want to be disturbed by it. Here are the facts.

it is a pity, those who cant face the truth go after fairy tales. Ha! It is a pity, ha! You cant face the truth, you cant face Jerome, you cant face the council of ephesus, so you go after fairy tales and tell me about seminaris or whatever you call it, did seminaries give birth to God incarnate? Did she give birth to Jesus christ? Ha! Im really sorry for you, a christian who runs away from the truth and go about pursuing lies. Mind you even martin luther the guy who started protestanism was wise enough to know that mary is the mother of God and a pepertual virgin, surprisingly you are a protestant who doesnt know his roots.

Enigma: I am assuming you mean the Roman Catholic Church. It is very common to see such a statement as yours nowadays, especially in the Internet age when false information is so easily and widely spread and preferred by many people at the expense of a rigorous examination of the truth.

people started calling the Catholic church 'roman' when the anglo-catholic started to claim catholicity, it was used to differentiate between the Catholic church and the anglicans. It would interest you to know that since vatican 1 the Catholic church has officially droped the 'roman' tag.

First of all, the Roman Catholic church is certainly not responsible for the creation of the Bible.

The Catholic church is my dear.

Secondly when it comes to compilation, where the misleading impression that it was the action of the Roman Catholic Church is more common, you will have to deal with a number of important points on the history of the universal* Christian Church. {*Note that 'catholic' simpliciter really means 'universal' --- again an important point you will have to address}

sorry to burst your bubble the compilation of the bible wasnt ecumenical, it wasnt done by the universal church it was done in a regional council in africa and confirmed by the pope in rome.

Questions you will have to address include:

- What is the Roman Catholic Church?

the church instituted by christ.

- When did the Roman Catholic Church come into existence?

Catholic church came into existence in 33 AD.

- Is the Roman Catholic Church, which is also called the C[/i]atholic Church (note the capital 'C'), the same thing as the c[/b]atholic Church (note the small 'c')?

you gat to be kidding me.

- Was it really the [i]Roman Catholic Church aka the C[/i]atholic Church that preserved and "compiled" the Bible or was it the [b]c[/b]atholic Church?

if you want to talk about before the schism then im happy to inform you that the compilation and preservation was done in the roman see.

- What is the effect of the East-West Schism that finally eventuated in the [b]11th century on our understanding of that which is known as the [i]Roman Catholic Church or the [i]C[/i]atholic Church?

ha! That schism simply divided the east from the west, the west retain the name of the church 'Catholic church' while the east decided to call herself orthodox church.

Logic Mind: If I were to confess my "sins" today, I would have to build a temple in 3 days to be considered for forgiveness.

hahaha, really funny, no matter how big and many your 'sins' are God can certainly forgive all he says is repent, turn a new leave, go, sin no more, do the works of righteousness. But before all these, faith is the first requirement. Building 9 temples would do you little unless u believe.
Peace logic guy.

ijawkid: Who is a presbytarian?

sorry i didnt say prebyterian, i said presbyterous, presbyterous is the greek word usually translated as elder in your bible, it is presbyter in latin and the root of the english word 'priest'. So when an english man say priest he is say presbyterous.

I read my bible......

D levites were under priests who carried out priestly activities.......
Burning of incense and other temple jobs...

What do ur lame priests do today??

as usual you simply insult, the presbyter is a dispenser of the divine mysteries

I know u guys still walk around d church with incense......wearing special gowns or cloths just like preists in d past did.....

Please read hebrews chapters 7 to 9 to see how u guys have back slided.........

i forgot that the jehova witness has their own bible, what does your fake bible say?

Was any of d apostles a priest??

ofcourse my dear, they were priest of the new covenant.

what does d word priest ring in ya mind??

hahaha, i could ask you same.

Oh I forgot,do ur priests get married

oh i forgot you have a fake bible maybe you would have seen that Jesus said 'some will be celibate for the sake of the kingdom' and paul advise regarding celibacy.

I bet they are like mary too

hahaha maybe like st paul. Since you are so into the priesthood debate i would like to show you this guy an ex protestant [url]Www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRIEST3.HTM[/url]

ijawkid: The fact that Jesus can forgive sins doesn't make him d same as Yahweh or equal to him....

Apply ur logic to Jesus's case.........

He also received authority to forgive sins from Yahweh............

ha! I guess you just dont get the divinity of christ do you? As the father is almighty so is the son and so is the spirit, the father is Yahve so is the son and spirit. The father, son and spirit are not 3 yahves but one yahve. That is the doctrine of the trinity

yommyuk: It is wise to carefully consider whom to confess ones sins to. Especailly nowadays where confidentiality in the hands of the clergy can be used as a tool to blackmail or hold to ransom the confessor.

Personally, I will confess only to GOD.

yeah someone can blackmail you with your sins. That is why in churches that practice confession, the confessor are bond never to speak of or act as though they ever heard a sin.

BERNIMOORE: [b]@the funclub enterprise
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, [size=14pt]because he gave not God the glory[/size]: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
[/color]
Herod's silence to the 'undeserved reverence' means that he consented, and you can see the consequence.

Also your quote below (bolded)


Thank you for the remarks,to God almighty be the Glory.but then, 'judge not' or 'do not judge', as used in the bible, below here pls,

Matthew 7:1,2,15-16
King James Version (KJV)
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2,[size=14pt] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged[/size]: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

when i read this above bible verse, i have taken the time to read further,

jesus says 'judge not' in mathew 7:1-2.

only to also say again in verse 15,16 of same verse below;
15 [size=14pt]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.[/size]

so how do you recognise 'someone in sheeps covering but inwardly is a deadly wolf'? especially with a hidden identity?
Analyse, if you enter a strange location and was told to beware of a misleading read leading to a deadly Gang's hideout, would you just leave everything to fate, and keep quiet? refusing to ask questions and put your judgement into use,expecially when it involve your life's safety?
verse 16 shed more light on that,;

16, Ye shall [size=14pt]know them by their fruits[/size]. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

''knowing them by their fruits'' DEMANDS YOUR JUDGEMENT AND DISCRETION.


We should also note that,our bible was translated from Hebrew and Greek manuscripts,of which most words were rendered in consonants, and to have a fitting words to translate in such a way your mother tongue quickly convey message was a challenge,
this is evident in the way the word 'lord' was used for God almighty, jesus and even, sarai called Abram 'lord',does this mean that abraham is God almighty? no.

Does the bible contradict itself in the matter of 'judge or judgement?
lets see the hebrew meanings in strong hebrew dictionary;
mathew 7:2
2, For with what [size=14pt]judgment ye judge,[/size] ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
emphasis here is on 'judgement ye judge'

JUDGE AND JUDEMENT (as used in the context ot mathew 7)
below;

[size=14pt]G2917

κρίμα

krima

kree'-mah[/size]

[size=14pt]From G2919 ; a decision (the function or the {effect} for or against [ crime ]): - {avenge} {condemned} {condemnation} {damnation} + go to {law} judgment.[/size]


see the meaning in the various instances of the translation of 'judgement or judge' below;

{Avenge} {Condemned} {Condemnation} {Damnation} + Go To {Law} Judgment,
Above instances shows the 'extreme kind of judjement, 'the law court condemnation to death' or 'the final judgement.
see the same usage of code used for this 'type' of judgement 'G2917'
below in
Luke 24:20

And G5037 how G3704 the chief priests G749 and G2532 our G2257 rulers G758 delivered G3860 him G846 to G1519 be [size=18pt]condemned G2917 to death,[/size] G2288 and G2532 have crucified G4717 him.G846

just a little correction, the apostles didnt gather in jerusalem to appoint bishops, the truth is, in those days any apostle or even a bishop could appoint and ordain another bishop.

KnowAll: [size=14pt]A Church and a especially a spiritual filled and laden church in Nigeria has a mutual understandable ethics, albeit unorthodox conventions, which both the congregation, the elders, and the pastor abide by. We would not find an Imam, Boko Haram or an athiest in such gathering, reasons been that the modus operendi and the philosophical insights of these " house of God" are at variance from their own scope and outlook of religious and general belief. Since it has been established that birds of the same feather flock together, and the attendees of these Churhes are fully aware of the sensationalised excosism that takes place there in the name of 'casting out unruly spirits' from afflicted and affected individuals, the un-warranted attention and concern from busy-bodies and other outsiders from what happens in a close knit community even though it is done in the full glare or view of mordern day mass media is nobody's business.

Excorcism in practise in such spiritual led congregation take the form at times of physical " slapping" the unruly spirit out from the person, or cajoling the spirit out of the person by way of "commanding" the spirit to leave the individual or better still and in extreme cases the spiriit can be "horse whipped" out of the person. These are mutually understandable unwritten ethics that governs these churches.

If an individual has chosen to subject, submitt and conceed to these unconventional(in the genereal world's view)ways of excosicsm and later cry blue murder over what is a 'determined norm' and way of life in the full view of clear evidence pinning the attendee to an irreversible association with the sect, how on earth can the attendee dissociate herself from the scene of the 'rituals' when she was not forced to go there but chose to be amongst what she consders to be like minded brethrens.

Unlike the earlier aformentioned individuals that is the "imam", "Atheist" and " Boko haram" these individuals surely know their onions and would not be caught lapping up to a pastor in such citadel of christandom. This individual have got no case, she is free to dissociate herself from her known sect after her painful exeperience but dissociating herself from the scene of the crime when it was obvious she is a party to the crime is not admissible.

The relationship between pastors and congregation members who beleif they have daunting and unruly spirits residing in their souls is like the relationship between a patient and a private money grabbing doctor, an unsick man who approches a money grabbing doctor for an un-necessary surgery cannot feine ignorance once after the operation he/she now becomes terribly sick.

We as humans have an indellible right to associate and dissociate as we journey through the long, perilous journey of life, If Boko Haram where to bomb that Church when the slapping took place, to them(the Boko Haramites) they have bombed a Church and all in it are quitisentially christains and enemy of their movements irrespective of whom is slapping who.

[/size]

wow fine piece, the problem is that you have proved nothing, where can a court find a list of all these 'norms' that obtain? Or havent you heard that the law of a state can trump those 'unconventional norms'. So a pastor cant abuse because it is fobiden in the law.

frosbel: It is not !!!

actually if you want to make a good discussion you need to back up your claims, you just cant come here and shout 'it is not!!'.

Pastor AIO: No, I'm not a signed up member of the Catholic church establishment, I'm Church of England, but I have an interest in the entirety of man's religious experience and expression of this religious experience.

I've developed a lot of resentment over the years towards people who try to denigrate other people's beliefs especially when they are also being hypocritical and not applying the same stringent criteria on their own beliefs that they use on others.

This is probably why I seem to come into threads on the side of Roman Catholics, as well as the fact that I think C of E is not part of the catholic Church due to an accident of History rather than due to any real ideological differences.


However I also like to downplay the membership of any establishment as a part of religion. I think religion is a lot deeper than that.

again i see your point. The accident in history was unfortunate. One thing surprise me though, you talk of the catholic church as an establishment, it seems you mean business venture which i think isnt cool. Why do you refer to the church as an establishment?

Pastor AIO: No, I'm not a signed up member of the Catholic church establishment, I'm Church of England, but I have an interest in the entirety of man's religious experience and expression of this religious experience.

I've developed a lot of resentment over the years towards people who try to denigrate other people's beliefs especially when they are also being hypocritical and not applying the same stringent criteria on their own beliefs that they use on others.

This is probably why I seem to come into threads on the side of Roman Catholics, as well as the fact that I think C of E is not part of the catholic Church due to an accident of History rather than due to any real ideological differences.


However I also like to downplay the membership of any establishment as a part of religion. I think religion is a lot deeper than that.

again i see your point. The accident in history was unfortunate. One thing surprise me though, you talk of the catholic church as an establishment, it seems you mean business venture which i think isnt cool. Why do you refer to the church as an establishment?

This is the council of ephesus. Those who deny the theotokus are called heretics http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum03.htm

OLAADEGBU: You ain't seen nothing yet, wait for it, and here it comes.

your ignorance has really reached it hight, so let me clarify. According to lk 2:22 a sin offering wasnt mention because it wasnt a sin to give birth what mary brought instead it was for 'purification according to the law of moses', as it seems birds of a feather flock together and you have found a site that shares your ignorance of scriptures and unfounded ideologys. The law of moses applied is lev 12:2-8 these laws apply because anyone that touches blood is unclean. Vs 2 makes it clear 'if a woman concieves and bears a male child she shall be unclean for 7 day; as at the time of her mensuration, she shall be unclean' and the solution for uncleaniness is a sin offering. So in case you dont know when mary brought those pigeons it want because she had broke Gods law but because the law say she is unclean. That 'sin offering' is not to wipe away sin but to remove uncleaniness that is why lk 2:22 calls it 'purification' not forgiveness.
I also saw your quote of 1tim 2:5 and mary and the saint donot contradict that passage. Inteccession can be found in the same chapter of timothy 1tim 2:1 and 1tim2:3 say that "it is good and acceptable in the eyes of God".
When roman say all has commited sin it is a generalisation not an absolute. If it was an absolute that mean you are saying that Jesus is a sinner.
In lk1:47 mary said 'my soul rejoices in God my saviour' you cant call God your saviour if you are not already saved. Mary didnt say she need a saviour she implied that she already had a saviour, but in your ignorance you continue to think that she need a saviour, she also said 'from hence forth all generation will call me blessed.
You have also showed your ignorance in church history when you went to talk about the 'mother of God' theotokus. Since you dont know i'll teach you how mary is the mother of God. [url] http://en.m.wikipedia.org:wiki/theotokus[/url]
I had alr

OLAADEGBU: You ain't seen nothing yet, wait for it, and here it comes.

OLAADEGBU: You ain't seen nothing yet, wait for it, and here it comes.

wow speculation is a good way to change topic. It show a bad arguement.

Pastor AIO: UBenedictus has hit on a very important point here. A point that I've been hoping to investigate for a while here.



https://www.nairaland.com/143699/what-worship


There is a very interesting historical anecdote that I came across recently.

It is regarding the life of Alexander the Great, the Greek/Macedonian conqueror. After he conquered Persia he started to copy Persian customs. He assumed the role of Persian monarch in the Persian style of monarchy. This included what is called Proskynesis. That is the Kissing of the Hands. Persians kissed the hands of their Kings as a gesture of respect.

However in Greece the act of kissing someone's hand was considered an act of Worship reserved only for Gods. When Alexander insisted that his hands be kissed a lot of his followers started to grumble against him and say that it was hubris.

Same Action. In one culture it is a gesture of respect. In another culture it is a gesture of Worship reserved only for deities.

Is not what we call Worship a culturally specific phenomenon that changes from one culture to another?

Idobale, the act of prostration that Yoruba people do to their elders is considered an act of worship in Jewish culture. And also in Islam. Are the Yoruba really worshipping their elders when they prostrate? Or shouldn't we allow for that fact that we are dealing with a different culture?

My conclusion is that Acts of Worship are culturally specific, and what matters is not the act itself but the intent behind the act.

Those people that don't like or respect references to Wikipedia should please close their eyes now:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proskynesis


One last point. Circumcision was the Jewish sign of the covenant between Israel and Yahweh. When christianity (while it was still a jewish cult) was spreading through the Roman empire one major obstacle that it had was the Greek repulsion to the act of circumcision. This act of self mutilation was disgusting to the Greeks and it stop many from joining Christianity and Judaism. What is the significance of st. Paul abrogating the necessity of this ritual? Is the significance of circumcision absolute or is it only significant within the Jewish cultural context?

your point is well made. Circumcision is only significant in the jewish covenantal context, in the african context it is a initiation into manhood. That is the thing, so when protestants say catholic worship idols it is because they dont know the difference between veneration and worship. When catholic bow, kneel etc they dont ascribe divinity the venerate, but protestants think it is worship. So i see a difference in understanding.

Pastor Kun: Evidently you know nothing about the history of tithes in the christian church. The catholic church first mooted the idea of collecting tithes at the council of macon in the year 567AD and it became an accepted practise in the catholic church in the year 585AD. Even then tithes was still basically collected from agricultural produce. Monetary tithe from income is relatively recent, it started in the 1870s in america and the practise was 'invented' by pentecostal churches there.

thanks for correcting me, i totally agree.

alexleo: Thanks dear, but you have no proof that there is non existent after-life when there are many people that have experienced it. Is it fair enough to dismiss what people living in different locations of the world and even various other religion said they have experienced and gave their life to Christ and say it does not exist just because you ve not experienced it? I mean in all fairness apart from the fact that it confirms the scriptures.

Concerning the bible, catholics dont even read much of the bible rather they dwell
much on the catholic books and if they wrote the bible how come they aint following it strictly? Where comes the strange doctrine and traditions we see in their system which is outside the bible?
May God help us to be close to him and may he prepare all of us for heaven. My dear brother, i always pray for you that God will draw u close to him so that you ll serve him in spirit and in truth and make heaven at last. You must not miss heaven.

hey dear friend, please dont criticise what you dont understand, it is a fact that the early roman catholic compile and canonise the bible in the council of hippo. The scripture according to those who compiled them are part of tradition. So i think it is the protestants that got it wrong. Im not ready for a long debate so i'll simply ask you to make sincere inquiry and research into the catholic church before you issue condemnations. Abeg take am easy. I sincerely doubt that an average protestant uses the bible as much as a practicing catholic. To memorise the bible doesnt mean you know it better.

OLAADEGBU: See real reasons why she would be crying in the pictures below:

i saw your pictures, i just cant find the reason in them

italo: I do not like beating around the bush.

When God performs a miracle, it is not ALWAYS clear for all to see. YES or NO!

The Church has always had a heirarchy. YES or NO!

If your answer to both of these is "yes", then we can move forward.

But if your answer to any of these is "no", then off with you delusion which you admit you are unsure of anyway.

Why should we discuss quadratic equations when you cannot accept that 1 + 1 = 2?

something i have learnt from talking to protestants is that many are almost incapable of truth when it comes to the catholic church.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]First of all the Math teacher analogy was originally Italo's doing and not mine.
Anyway let us look at the reality. I believe the true church of Christ is not just an organization with members and leaders. The true church of God are those people that do His will.[/quote]and you think 30000 contradicting guys are doing the will of God?

Those are the people Christ will rapture.

ha! The protestant doctrine that says that the christains wont witness the antichrist. Do you know that at least 1000 denominations disagree with that doctrine.

It is those that have kept themselves pure that are Christ's church that the gates of hell will not prevail against. if a church is living in sin, then it is not a true church and the gates of hell are already prevailing against it.

you have it backwards, christ didnt say the 'gates of hell wont prevail if christains are sinless' infact christ didnt promise a sinless christainity. He said 'the gates of hell will never prevail' no if.

God's Spirit is infallible but man is not infallible. Anything a man says must be tested and tried to see if it is true it doesn't matter what title the man goes by.

hahaha, God rendered man infalliable when he inspired the apostles to write scripture, he helps them interprete the word of God to make sure the gate of hell never prevail.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]The sin is not in giving or denying permission. The sin is in the kind of punishment meted out. I like how you like to talk as if the church and state were separate back in the middle ages. Are you willing to claim that popes and bishops never condemned anyone to death? Now please show me from the bible anywhere where Jesus or His disciples preached that it is okay to kill a man for heresy or whatever reason at all.[/quote]wow! I just saw someone who said that there is nothing wrong with printing adultrated bibles. Wow what a christain!!!

Of course, but people were executed for reciting the Lord's prayer in English and teaching their children to do likewise

this is a big lie.

No my friend in the case of the popes sins, it is not ad hominem considering that you guys claim the pope is infallible.
There will be no need to attack the person of the popes if they didn't claim infallibility and if they had a proven track record of actual infallibility

again infalliability doesnt mean that the popes never sins, infalliability means that the pope doesnt teach errors when teaching ex cathedra. Ha! It is a pity you dont know the difference between infalliability and indefectibility. The pope infalliable not indectible so you are still making a logical fallacy called adhominem.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I was only playing back your logic to you. I'm glad you realize it is defective. I asked shouldn't truth be more important than agreement? And instead of answering about truth and agreement, you created a false parallel between agreement and confusion which is clearly not what i was talking about so I led you down the route of your folly. I am glad you now agree that that logic was defective.



I can see your teammate also chipped in as well. I'm glad that both of you can actually identify good logic when you see it. Hopefully we we can argue properly from here onwards.[/quote]real pride, you cant even take resposibility for your mistakes. I said God brings harmony and you thought i meant God bring about all harmony, your mistake. Now you are talking crap

[quote author=Mr_Anony]were there any superior christians whose word was law and not to be disputed?[/quote]and a heriarchy doesnt mean some are greater than others it means some have more responsibility than other.

Are your bishops allowed to marry?

is that a doctrine? Ha! You dont even know the difference between doctrine and disciple, was paul married. In case you think celibacy is wrong read 1cor7:1.

Does your church believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues?

of course, it is called confirmation or charismation, and in case you havent heard catholic speaking in tongues go and ask about 'catholic charismatics'

Did the members of the early church kneel or bow down to any images of Jesus or Mary or any dead saint?

so you dont know? Have you ever heard of the sophia hagia? You havent heard of christain icons as old as d first century? Ha make research.

Did the christians of the early church pray to any saints dead or alive?

yeah my dear friend, when catholic say we pray to the saints, is means we ask the saints for intercession. you should read about the early christains my dear.

Is your doctrine the same as the one preached by Jesus and His apostles? you answered yes............Did Jesus or the apostles institute a system of priests and nuns not to talk of forbidding them to marry?

so you havent heard or read about 'presbyter' in the bible? In case you dont know that is where the english word priest come from, maybe your bible interpretes them as elders. The nun are the unmarried lady talked about in 1cor7:34 and celibacy is good according to 1cor7:32-35 and according to 35 it secures undivided devotion to the lord.

Where did the teaching of "don't eat meat on fridays" come from?

it is called a discipline and it falls under the power of the church 'to bind and lose'. I think protestant pastors usually tell their church members to fast for a week for a certain prayer, fasting is simply abstainence from food in the discipline above catholic abstain from meat for an intention like the conversion of a sinner.

The disciples preached that only Jesus mediates for us to God. where does Mary or any other saint come in?

so you have never heard of intercession? The bible say that Jesus alone mediated the new covenant, the bible didnt forbide intercession.

If Peter the apostle is the rock on which Jesus will built His church, how come Peter and Paul describe the rock on which the Church is built as Christ? (1 Peter 2:4-6, Ephesians 2:20)

it is called delegated authority Jesus the rock calls peter a rock and gives him the keys.

Lastly, Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

wow did you know that the letter of the law brings death it is the spirit that gives life. You have to interprete the law according to the spirit. The same God who said never make an image also says 'make an image of a serpent and hang it on a pole' that same God wrote on a stone and put it in some wood and it was called the ark of the covenant, that same God who said never make an image resemblin thing above also say make a image of a cherubim. Ha that law isnt against all image making and use, that commandment is against idolatry. And in case you dont know the isrealite worship before the ark (just some wood and stone) and God wasnt angry. He is angry when they used images to worship some non-existent gods.

how does your church's doctrine of icons and bowing and kneeling before images tally with that verse (mind you the apostles never made or knelt before any images even of Jesus Christ for that matter)

who told you that the apostles never used images? Even paul went to the temple acts20:26 and made purification and offerings. And incase you dont know an offering is an act of worship and it was done in a temple befor images.

Please defend the truth of your church. Remember; according to you it was the catholic church that compiled the bible. This is more reason why you should not contradict it in doctrine.

none of those teaching contradict the bible, learn to interprete the scripture.
Peace

Every church (gathering of christians including yours and mine) must be examined by scripture.

where does the bible say this?

I noticed your careful word play, here is your answer: Christ's Church can never be corrupted because he reason it is Christ's church at all is that it follows Christ. If it stops following Christ, then it is not Christ's church.

and my point is the church christ instituted while on earth is his church, the catholic church and he promised her the infalliable spirit and that hell will never prevail. It seems you dont believe in d promise of christ. Christ didnt say there would be 30000 contradicting denominations.

The Roman Catholic Church on the other hand is corrupted and is not Christ's church as long as it continues to preach false doctrine.

hahaha tell me the year she was corrupted. The church christ instituted cannot be corrupted because he promises. You really need to start believing in christ.

Again, I put to you the questions which you evaded last time.

Are your popes infallible? you answered yes.........How about the ones that committed adultery, murdered people and sentenced men to death? (something Christ would never do). Were they also infallible?

i cant believe you are so ignorant! Infalliability isnt indefectibility. Infalliability doesnt mean the pope never makes mistakes, it doesnt mean the pope never sins, it doesnt mean all the popes will be or are saints, it mean that the pope thru the power of the holy spirit cannot teach wrong doctrine when he teaches ex cathedra as a universal teacher. So all those examples u have in mind about a popes sin doesnt affect the infalliability of the pope.

Isn't being pope a political position? for instance, at a point three different people were all claiming to be pope at the same time. Which of them was infallible or were they all infallible?

first of all a pope is a religious position, the pope is the bishop of rome, he is also the president of the worlds smallest country. There was never 3 popes, there were 3 people claiming to be pope. One was the pope and the remaining two where antipopes, if you are good in history you will know that they later resigned.

Some popes have accused other popes of heresy is there such a thing as an infallible heretic?

hahaha no pope as accused another pope of teaching heresy as a universal teacher, your knowledge of history is really bad.

Some popes have changed doctrines of their predecessors. Does it mean the truth changes?

hahaha no pope has ever changed the doctrines proclaimed by another, please go and research.

and the church must remain infallible no matter what?

because she is alway guided by the infalliable holy spirit. Jesus didnt say 'the gate of hell will prevail sometimes'.

Is the description of you church the same as the one described in the book of Acts? you answered yes..........Was there a hierarchy in the early church?

yes.

were there any superior christians whose word was law and not to be disputed?

did you read about the council of jerusalem? Ha! They said 'it is good to d holyspirit and to us' they didnt say 'if you dont like it you can come and dispute it'.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]The teacher still has a lot of explaining to do. Let us paint an even clearer Math teacher analogy.[/quote]your analogy doesnt cut it.

Now the maths teacher stands before us and introduces a maths concept such as A+B=C. Up until this moment, the only maths we know is numbers (and yes we know algebra too) so we ask the math teacher to please explain it in terms of numbers so that we can understand but instead of answering, he tells us about his ancestral heritage and expects us to just swallow his teaching? Sorry it is either you can explain A+B=C mathematically or what you are teaching is not mathematics.

No one is questioning your qualifications as a math teacher but you don't just invent something and declare it mathematics. If you claim that your first ancestors, those who wrote the textbook taught people that A+B=C, then you must provide proof that they did because you are not the same person as your ancestors. How hard is that to ask?

here comes the reality, we have a church that is guided by the holy spirit and the gate of hell will never prevail against her, is that promise made to the math teacher? We have a bible written thru the inspiration of d spirit by members of the church, for the church to be interpreted by the spirit thru the church, is that d same for maths? No its not d same. The church is guided by the infalliable spirit and hell cant prevail against her. That is why she always teach the truth. Not some maths teacher.

Ptolomeus: For God!
First we have a spirit that impregnates a woman!
Then a spirit cries ...

Call a psychiatrist!

God can do the imposible that is why it is called a miracle. Actually i believe mary is in heaven body and soul.

fellis: The girl claiming to have seen what comes after death could very well be lying. I know there are people that are fame-freaks and they are constantly pulling different publicity stunts to get attention so untill the girl comes forward with more concrete evidence i will regard this story as bull-sh[i]i[/i]t.

this is possible, or a demon could have decieved her. I find it surprising that she is saying the catholic church doesnt teach about hell, i think she probably missed the vision because those who say there is no hell a protestant. Besides i would be particularly interested in how you can see a spirit, a spirit is coporal.

Ptolomeus: I will answer your question with pleasure.
Yes, I believe in God, I'm not an atheist.
Now ... you answer my question?

You would sex.o with a spirit?

sex wasnt necessary, a spirit doesnt have a body so a spirit cant have sex. The divine work is not for the carnal mind to comprehend.

OLAADEGBU: Why Is Mary Crying?

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp

she is crying because the iniquity of the world has reach horrible heights, because many has left the church of christ to form their own churches, she is crying for the sins of people like u and me. Scrape that your anti catholic site. If you have a church father to quote i'll be more inclined to listen untill then stop diverting the topic.

Ptolomeus: I just wonder if it is necessary to mention the Bible, to know if Mary was a virgin or not before your pregnancy to see if after calving remained virgin., ...
A little common sense ... within both blind fanaticism.

wow u are on ya own.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I love how you flare up when I play your game on you. (Notice the bolded) I asked if agreement was more important than truth and your answer was "if God isnt the guy who brings confusion then i guess he bring harmony and agreement." in other words you were implying that if we disagree over what is truth, the guys who agree on a viewpoint are on God's side. FAIL[/quote]you are alledging that im implying, if you are not in my mind you cant know. Even then, the fact that i said God inspires harmony doesnt imply that all agreements are Godly. Your logic is very defective. I inspire laughter in people, but that doesnt mean im responsible for all laughter.