₦airaland Forum

OkaiCorne:
If Martin Luther did not argue his case with the greedy Catholic Bishops on Christians that paid monetary indulgence for the forgiveness of their sins, perhaps you would have grown with the mentality that just like monetary tithing qualifies you for God's blessings...you also have to pay money for the forgiveness of your sins.


About your comments on me squandering money on the poor... kindly read up Matthew 25 v 31-46 and criticize me for obeying the instructions of Jesus. That's the basis God will use to separate the goats from sheeps and not this false doctrine of monetary Tithing.

actually the Catholic Church has solid biblical support for teaching that giving alms and charity covers a multitude of sin...the Bible supports that and the Catholic Church still teach it. albeit in the Catholic Church giving alms to the Church as reparations for sins isn't emphasized much but the teaching is correct.

Nodogragra4me:
Who, from your personal knowledge of the scripture did crush the head of the serpent between Mary and Jesus

I believe both crushed the head of the serpent, God created enmity between both the woman and her offspring against the devil, I believe he made sure the victory was total, both the woman and her offspring won. though the woman merely shares in the victory of her son.

plainbibletruth:
Did you read my first paragraph where I wrote: "Salvation is a package with so many things in it.?

And now you're saying I'm "looking at salvation as justification only"?

I think it's good not to be rushing to push your points without taking time to carefully read through others' posts.

Perhaps you need to go back and do that with my post.

I read you post from top to bottom as I always to when I respond to people on nairaland.

you said and I quote
salvation is a package with so many things in it...

Redemption, regeneration, justification, propitiation,
imputation, forgiveness, etc

I read it and immediately noticed you mentioned redemption, propitiation, both are works Christ did on the cross, in redemption he bought us back by paying the price of our sins, propitiation is a sacrificial term denoting how Jesus satisfied the demands of Justice by offering to his father a worthy sacrifice... those has nothing to do with works done in grace so they don't relate to the thread... you mentioned regeneration, forgiveness, imputation they all are related to as fall under justification....


what you didn't mention in the most telling, you neither mentioned sanctification nor glorification... in fact you skipped the parts of salvation that dealt with works done in grace and only mentioned the topics that relate exclusively to the works of Jesus and justification... that is why I feel justified in saying you consider salvation mainly in terms of justification.

so let me ask you,
do you consider salvation to include our judgement or not?

do you consider salvation as a one time only event?

Nodogragra4me:
All the names you mentioned here didn't give Mary the place your church is according her today. All they did with the exception of one is explain the scripture from the adamic era to the birth of Jesus and relating both... Not one of them spoke about litany of Mary , salvation through Mary , we fly to your patronage , hail holy queen ...All unscriptural and therefore demonic ..

I wasn't and never stated that Mary never gave birth , I am concern with her worship today by your church and the the opportunity it has given to Satan to invade your church with the demon that makes appearances every now and then with satanic messages to you guys

Have you ever wondered why she never or scarcely mentions Jesus but God ...In Fatima she promises to lead you people to God and not Jesus ...Does she have that authority after Jesus made it clear Jo one comes to the father except through him

keep reading.

"It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near
Him Who granted you all graces, for you are the
Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of
the King, the Lord God Master Who was born of you.
For this reason you are called 'full of Grace'..." (373 St.
Athanasius).
"Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with
praise and thanksgiving for having rescued a fallen
world by your generous consent? ...accept then such
poor thanks as we have to offer, unequal though they
be to your merits. Receive our gratitude and obtain by
your prayers the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers
into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to bring
about our peace with God...Holy Mary, help the
miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the
sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy,
intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all
who venerate you, feel now your help and protection.
...Make it your continual care to pray for the people of
God, for you were blessed by God and were made
worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, who lives
and reigns for ever (St Augustine in 430 A.D. ).


"you are the
vessel and tabernacle containing all mysteries. You
know what the Patriarchs never knew; you have
experienced what was never revealed to the Angels;
you have heard what the Prophets never heard. In a
word, all that was hidden from preceding generations
was made known to you; even more, most of these
wonders depended on you. (270 A.D., St. Gregory
Thaumaturgus),
"Blessed Virgin, immaculate and pure you are the
sinless Mother of your Son, the mighty Lord of the
universe. You are holy and inviolate, the hope of the
hopeless and sinful; we sing your praises. We praise
you as full of every grace, for you bore the God-Man.
We all venerate you; we invoke you and implore your
aid...Holy and immaculate Virgin...be our intercessor
and advocate at the hour of death and judgment...you
are holy in the sight of God, to Whom be honor and
glory, majesty, and power forever (373 AD, St. Ephem
of Edessa).

St. Epiphanius, wrote "Against
Eighty Heresies" where he affirmed: "Eve was called the
mother of the living ...after the fall this title was given
to her. True it is...the whole race of man upon earth
was born from Eve; but in reality it is from Mary the
Life was truly born to the world. So that by giving birth
to the Living One, Mary became the mother of all
living"

Methodius
“While the old man [Simeon] was thus
exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding
great and holy joy, that which had before
been spoken of in a figure by the prophet
Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now
manifestly fulfilled” (Oration on Simeon
and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).
“Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother
of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you
do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of
the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore,
we pray you, the most excellent among
women, who boast in the confidence of
your maternal honors, that you would
unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O
holy Mother of God, remember us, I say,
who make our boast in you, and who in
august hymns celebrate your memory,
which will ever live, and never fade
away” (ibid., 14).

Nodogragra4me:
Other than the misinformation about who the serpent and the offspring of the woman, the remainder of the articles you posted here are derivatives of the scripture simply explained. Not one of them mentioned anything to the adulation that goes on within the catholic church... You have invented a litany for Mary but not one for the Saviour Jesus Christ.

You have a rosary where ...Jesus's , Holy spirit is mentioned Just six times but hail Mary is mentioned 53 times ... There is not a sentence prayer in your church that doesn't have a place for Mary ... Your creed ....I believe in God refuses to mention that the death of Jesus was to make available the grace for salvation but your church buys the satanic Mary version in Fatima that she will makes available the grace necessary for salvation even though there is nothing like graces in the Bible ..


NB: he died under pontiff Pilate the third day he rose again from the dead ..... Why does this creed omit the most important reason for the death

my mfm friend shout die over 60 times before he says Jesus, the other one mentioned enemies more times than Jesus, he didn't even remember the holy spirit. at least Catholics repeating scriptures.
besides the rosary is a Christ centered prayer, it is mainly meditative, Catholics actually use the rosary when meditating on the life of Christ, repeating scriptures keep you mind from going off track.

it seem you haven't even read what you're condemning, in Fatima Mary talk about her son. the creed tells us why Jesus died it says.



For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven... became man.. died...buried... as the scriptures say.


read up the Nicene creed.

Nodogragra4me:
All the names you mentioned here didn't give Mary the place your church is according her today. All they did with the exception of one is explain the scripture from the adamic era to the birth of Jesus and relating both... Not one of them spoke about litany of Mary , salvation through Mary , we fly to your patronage , hail holy queen ...All unscriptural and therefore demonic ..

I wasn't and never stated that Mary never gave birth , I am concern with her worship today by your church and the the opportunity it has given to Satan to invade your church with the demon that makes appearances every now and then with satanic messages to you guys

Have you ever wondered why she never or scarcely mentions Jesus but God ...In Fatima she promises to lead you people to God and not Jesus ...Does she have that authority after Jesus made it clear Jo one comes to the father except through him

then you didn't read well.


the place in the writing of the early Church is exactly the place of Mary in the Church today.

each one of then addressed Mary as the new eve who undid the by her obedience, the disobedience of the old Eve.

irenaeus wrote.

And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to
death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a
virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in
the opposite scale by virginal obedience. (Against
Heresies, V.19.1, A.D. 180

that Mary rescued the human race, just as Catholics says till today because that is the implication of what the Bible says.

they also called her mother of God, honoured her and ask her intercession.




Irenaeus
The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received
from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God
(Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Hippolytus
[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured
forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for
action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in
the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and
God-bearing ( theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and
growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with
men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new
birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by
the laver [of baptism] ( Discourse on the End of the World 1
[A.D. 217]).
Gregory the Wonderworker
For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a
testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the
Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to
the very family and house of David ( Four Homilies 1 [A.D.
262]).
It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the
festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the
feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to
wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, "Hail, full of
grace!" (ibid., 2).
Peter of Alexandria
They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of
God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he
had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for
a cemetery of the martyrs (The Genuine Acts of Peter of
Alexandria [A.D. 305]).
Methodius
Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our
unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail,
you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we
pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast
in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you
would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy
Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast
in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your
memory, which will ever live, and never fade away
(Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The
Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the
form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness,
bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of
God bears witness ( Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).
Ephraim the Syrian
Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and
the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the
Mother of God (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).
Athanasius
The Word begotten of the Father from on high,
inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and
eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the
Virgin Mary, the Mother of God ( The Incarnation of the
Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate
among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son]
reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the
Mother of God through the Holy Spirit ( The Man Well-
Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).
Ambrose of Milan
The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the
greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the
Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom
Glory Itself chose? ( The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).
Gregory of Nazianz
If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of
God, he is at odds with the Godhead ( Letter to Cledonius
the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Nodogragra4me:
All the names you mentioned here didn't give Mary the place your church is according her today. All they did with the exception of one is explain the scripture from the adamic era to the birth of Jesus and relating both... Not one of them spoke about litany of Mary , salvation through Mary , we fly to your patronage , hail holy queen ...All unscriptural and therefore demonic ..

I wasn't and never stated that Mary never gave birth , I am concern with her worship today by your church and the the opportunity it has given to Satan to invade your church with the demon that makes appearances every now and then with satanic messages to you guys

Have you ever wondered why she never or scarcely mentions Jesus but God ...In Fatima she promises to lead you people to God and not Jesus ...Does she have that authority after Jesus made it clear Jo one comes to the father except through him

then you didn't read well.


the place in the writing of the early Church is exactly the place of Mary in the Church today.

each one of then addressed Mary as the new eve who undid the by her obedience, the disobedience of the old Eve.

irenaeus wrote.

And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to
death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a
virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in
the opposite scale by virginal obedience. (Against
Heresies, V.19.1, A.D. 180

that Mary rescued the human race, just as Catholics says till today because that is the implication of what the Bible says.

Nodogragra4me:
The city and tower of Babel set the pattern of the unholy alliance between civil government and a religion of self-effort and ritual which continued for thousands of years and was exemplified both in pagan Rome and in "Christian" Rome following Constantine's "conversion." The "separation of church and state" is a concept of recent origin, largely since the Protestant Reformation, and one which the Roman Catholic Church, as the religious continuation of the Roman Empire, has consistently and even viciously opposed.



Dr. Brownson, highly regarded nineteenth-century Catholic journalist, expressed Catholicism's position in the Brownson Quarterly journal: No civil government , be it a monarchy, an aristocracy, a democracy. .. can be a wise, just, efficient, or durable government, governing for the good of the community, without the Catholic Church; and without the papacy there is and can be no Catholic Church.1


The Vatican has consistently fought every democratic advance from absolute monarchies toward government by the people, beginning with England's Magna Carta (June 15, 1215), "the mother of European Constitutions." That vital document was denounced immediately by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), who "pronounced it null and void and excommunicated the English barons who obtained it"2 and absolved the king of his oath to the barons.3 Encouraged by the pope, King John brought in foreign mercenaries to fight the barons, bringing great destruction upon the country. Subsequent popes did all in their power to help John's successor, Henry III, overturn the Magna Carta, impoverishing the country with papal taxes (salaries to the numerous imported Italian priests were three times the crown's annual revenue). Nevertheless, the barons finally prevailed

does the Bible teach a separation of church and state?, or that the that civil authorities are to be respected and obeyed in all right things and rebuked by the Church when it goes wrong?


I rightly disagree with a state built without God. or a state where the Church can't advise the government, I reject a state where religion is considered a thing of the Church that shouldn't be brought out into society and laws, I reject a society that censors the name of Jesus etc as done today in the US, and so does the Catholic Church.

there is a right separation of Church and state called religious liberty and a false one as practiced in some western countries.

plainbibletruth:
You're getting things mixed up.
Salvation is a package with so many things in it.
Redemption, regeneration, justification, propitiation, imputation, forgiveness, etc, etc are all in the package.
No works is involved here. They are the results of FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE.
Remember the jailor in Acts 16 asked "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"

After salvation, our christian production - works - is what will count toward eternal rewards. "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3.
Jesus Christ the foundation gives us salvation. What we build on it determines our eternal rewards.

I think you are the person getting things mixed up.


you are looking at salvation as justification only, that is why you are running into trouble. maybe you have to define what you mean when you say salvation.


as for the jailer who asked what he must do to be saved, I think you are Cherry picking scriptures, that question was asked more than once the the new testament, and that wasn't the only answer given.


in acts 2 the Jews also ask that questions and the response wasn't FAITH ALONE, Peter told them repent, believe and be baptised. don't cherrypick act 16 because it supports Calvin's invention called faith alone.



let me rephrase your last paragraph.

After JUSTIFICATION our christian production - works - is what will count toward eternal rewards (GLORIFICATION). "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3.


OUR SALVATION IS NOT COMPLETE UNTIL WE HAVE ACHIEVED GLORIFICATION IE RECEIVED OUR REWARD. And we will receive absolutely ZERO REWARDS if we do not show forth our faith in good works after we are justified.



you will receive absolutely zero reward (no heaven) if your salvation by Grace alone, through faith in Christ alone (aka justification) does not have a capacity for good works. your faith will not take you to heaven if it is without work.

that is what I mean when I say saved (justified) by grace without work, and assured of salvation (glorification) by works

Nodogragra4me:
women praise Her, the pure Mary — that as in
Eve their mother, great was their reproach — lo! In
Mary their sister, greatly magnified was their honor.
[…] Of him the Lord said, that he had fallen from
Heaven.— The Abhorred One had exalted himself;
from his uplifting he has fallen. The foot of Mary has
trod him down, who bruised Eve with his heel.
(Hymns on the Nativity , 15)


When reading all this catholic supervised books, keep in mind the position of the scripture.... Eve wasn't the one that trod the Satan but Jesus Christ... The offspring of the woman shall trod not the woman ....This is where you people invented Mary worship... Go back to the book of genesis and find out what it said ... Gen 3:15 ..I am not one bit surprised at the remix taking place within the catholic church.

you are quoting someone who is conversant in the original languages of scripture and you are trying to refute him by brandishing your English translation. lol.


now watch how that passage is translated in English.


King James 2000 Bible
And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed; HE shall bruise
your head, and you shall bruise his heel.




King James Bible
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed; IT shall bruise
thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


king James translates that as IT in the original king James, then the 2000 version translated He will crush ur head.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed; THEY shall bruise
thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

tanakh translates it as they shall crush your head.


American King James Version
And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise
your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
.n

Douay-Rheims Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and
thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and
thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Rhein translates SHE Will crush your head.

English Revised Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise
thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.



Webster's Bible Translation
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise
thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.



This ones translates it will crush your head.


that passage is translated differently in various English translation some translated IT others HE, another translated it as SHE, THE Catholic Church didn't remix anything, the issue comes from the manuscript which allows for more than one possible translation.

Nodogragra4me:
From a site you provided I pointed out to you that your church is rewriting history and this is one of them


The two legs in the image foretold the division of the fourth empire, the Roman, into East and West, and so it occurred. In A.D. 330 Constantine established Constantinople (today's Istanbul) as his new imperial capital, leaving the Bishop of Rome in charge in the West and setting the stage for the later political and religious division of the empire. The final break came religiously in 1054 when the Orthodox Church in the East broke off from the Roman Catholic Church in the West and Pope Leo IX excommunicated Michael Cerularius, Patriarch of Constantinople. That division between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy remains to this day and is at the root of the current bloodshed in the Croatia-Sarajevo-Bosnia-Herzegovina region of Yugoslavia, as we shall document.


When Emperor Constantine supposedly became a Christian in A.D. 313 (really a clever political maneuver), he gave freedom to Christians as well as official status alongside paganism to the Christian church. Since the church was now a recognized religious body in the empire, Constantine, as emperor, had to be acknowledged as its de facto head. A s such, he convened the first ecumenical council, the Council of Nicea, in A.D. 325, set its agenda, gave the opening speech, and presided over it as Charlemagne would over the Council of Chalon 500 years later, Interested not in the truth of the gospel but in unifying the empire, Constantine was the first ecumenist and introduced that error into the persecution-wearied church. While heading the Christian church, Constantine continued to head the pagan priesthood, to officiate at pagan celebrations, and to endow pagan temples even after he began to build Christian churches. As head of the pagan priesthood he was the Pontifex Maximus and needed a similar title as head of the Christian church. The Christians honored him as "Bishop of Bishops," while Constantine called himself Vicarius Christi, Vicar of Christ. He meant that he was "another Christ" acting in the place of Christ. When translated into Greek, however, as we have seen, Vicarius Christi literally means Antichrist.

this is the quote


Protestantism and the Enlightenment ''created a new
historiography of the church, claiming that it was not
just stained by sin but completely corrupt, so the
church had to build up a Catholic historiography to
combat it,'' he explained.

as you can see, it was the Protestants who created a new historiography, the Church is simply setting it right.





as usual you have ended up with false history, no Christian leader was stupid enough to call Constantine head of the Church, he only gave freedom to Christian, he called the council of Nicea because the bishop of nicomedia his friend told him that the Church resolved any issue in council.

Constantine didn't contribute in the doctrinal debates because he was just a catechumen then, he was baptised closed to death.

in fact the party of the Bishop of nicomedia were the arians, that was the teaching Constantine received and supported yet that was condemned by the council as heresy. that should tell you he didn't have control over the council.

hitman2911:
@op please for your information, the surviving part of the old temple does not have any ark of covenant. It was destroyed or taken away by the Romans after the death of Jesus around 70AD.
The muslim also invaded Jerusalem and turned the temple into the second most important mosque in the islamic world.

there was no ark in the temple during the time of Jesus, the ark was lost during the Babylonian captivity.

Goshen360:
What really is your stand on this topic?

Works is a by product of salvation......or,

Works produces salvation?

let me put it down in simple terms,

when people say salvation they are usually referring to one or more of these works that God does in the life of believers.

1. justification: that act by which God translates us from the state in which we were born as sons of Adam into Sons of God by the merits of Christ. here the bible says we are saved by grace without works.

2. sanctification: the work of the HOLY spirit by which we are caused to live HOLY lives. here the bible says we should work out our salvation.
3. glorification: God crowns his graces in us and rewards our work. here works again plays a role.

therefore

1. work is a by product of salvation I.e justification.

2. work assures our salvation if by salvation we mean our eternal inheritance

plainbibletruth:
[size=6pt][/size]

1. "Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation." Romans 4: 4
According to the above verse our "works" are not credited as "gift".

2. Entrance into eternity with God is ONLY on the basis of his GIFT.

The inheritance we get, beyond salvation, is on the basis of how we lived our post-salvation lives:
"Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward." Colossians 3:24-25.

3. "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Corinthians 3: 11-15.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5: 10.

The above two Corinthians passages clearly distinguish between a person being saved and loss of rewards.

4. Therefore,
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2: 8-9.

"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy....." Titus 3: 5a.

"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" 2 Timothy 1:9.

The "PRIZE" we'll receive as REWARD depends on how well we live in line with God's mandates. The SALVATION we possess is on the basis of faith ALONE in CHRIST ALONE.

because you used the big word salvation, you fail to distinguish between justification and glorification.



we are justified irrespective of works, in fact we are initially justified without a single good work done by ourselves. that is where the passage about without works come in.

but none is sanctified nor glorified irrespective of good work done in grace. that is why Jesus teaches that the test for heaven isn't do you believe? or do you have the spirit? it is based on works done in grace, did you feed, cloth, or visit me.
that is where the passage you quoted from Colossians comes in.
"Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward." Colossians 3:24-25.

our inheritance, I.e glorification is achieved not just as gift but also as reward.


the 2 Corinthian passages actually agree with me, glorification include works and it is a reward, in fact it tells us what happens to the imperfect worker the guy who built on straw but it never anywhere talks about the guy who didn't build at all, it never says a person who has no works will be saved (glorification).

Statsocial:
Show me the verse where it says DO NOT TITHE in the new testament. If you can't find it then forever hold your peace.

sorry dear, no one is asked to prove a negative. you guys are the ones claiming tithe the burden of proof is on you.

Statsocial:
I don't judge a message I didn't listen to, I don't just rely on hearsay. If anything negates the Word it can't be adopted. But it doesn't change anything about the relevance of tithing.

When you say Pentecostal churches who do you really think you are referring to. There are thousands of Pentecostals everywhere. Thereby the voice of one isn't the voice of all.

then read up and hear what the pastors are cursing just to get tithe.

lasting tithing isn't relevant in the new testament, generously giving is what the new testament preach not tithe.

ichuka:
The Giver sets the gift as a reward??
Dude,take it easy na haba.

why take it easy, God himself tell us his gift is a reward.

maybe this will help you understand why it is both grace and reward. it's a preacher called Augustine from 1600 yrs ago.



Chapter 20.— The Question Answered. Justification is
Grace Simply and Entirely, Eternal Life is Reward and
Grace.
This question, then, seems to me to be by no means
capable of solution, unless we understand that even
those good works of ours, which are recompensed
with eternal life, belong to the grace of God, because
of what is said by the Lord Jesus: "Without me you can
do nothing." John 15:5 And the apostle himself, after
saying, "By grace are you saved through faith ; and that
not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest
any man should boast;" Ephesians 2:8-9 saw, of course,
the possibility that men would think from this
statement that good works are not necessary to those
who believe , but that faith alone suffices for them; and
again, the possibility of men's boasting of their good
works, as if they were of themselves capable of
performing them. To meet, therefore, these opinions
on both sides, he immediately added, "For we are His
workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God has before ordained that we should walk in
them." Ephesians 2:10 What is the purport of his
saying, "Not of works, lest any man should boast," while
commending the grace of God? And then why does he
afterwards, when giving a reason for using such
words, say, "For we are His workmanship, created in
Christ Jesus unto good works" ? Why, therefore, does it
run, "Not of works, lest any man should boast"? Now,
hear and understand. "Not of works" is spoken of the
works which you suppose have their origin in yourself
alone; but you have to think of works for which God
has moulded (that is, has formed and created) you.
For of these he says, "We are His workmanship, created
in Christ Jesus unto good works." Now he does not here
speak of that creation which made us human beings,
but of that in reference to which one said who was
already in full manhood, "Create in me a clean heart, O
God ;" concerning which also the apostle says,
"Therefore, if any man be in Christ , he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things have
become new. And all things are of God ."
2 Corinthians 5:17-18 We are framed, therefore, that is,
formed and created, "in the good works which" we have
not ourselves prepared, but "God has before ordained
that we should walk in them." It follows, then, dearly
beloved, beyond all doubt , that as your good life is
nothing else than God's grace , so also the eternal life
which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of
God ; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is
given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to
which it is given is solely and simply grace ; this
therefore is also that which is given to it, because it is
its reward —grace is for grace , as if remuneration for
righteousness; in order that it may be true, because it
is true, that God "shall reward every man according to his
works."
Chapter 21 [IX.]— Eternal Life is "Grace for Grace."
Perhaps you ask whether we ever read in the Sacred
Scriptures of " grace for grace." Well you possess the
Gospel according to John, which is perfectly clear in its
very great light. Here John the Baptist says of Christ:
"Of His fullness have we all received, even grace for
grace ." John 1:16 So that out of His fullness we have
received, according to our humble measure, our
particles of ability as it were for leading good lives —
"according as God has dealt to every man his measure of
faith ;" Romans 12:3 because "every man has his proper
gift of God ; one after this manner, and another after that."
1 Corinthians 7:7 And this is grace . But, over and
above this, we shall also receive "grace for grace," when
we shall have awarded to us eternal life, of which the
apostle said: "The grace of God is eternal life through
Jesus Christ our Lord," Romans 6:23 having just said
that "the wages of sin is death." Deservedly did he call it
"wages," because everlasting death is awarded as its
proper due to diabolical service. Now, when it was in
his power to say, and rightly to say: "But the wages of
righteousness is eternal life," he yet preferred to say: "The
grace of God is eternal life;" in order that we may hence
understand that God does not, for any merits of our
own, but from His own divine compassion, prolong our
existence to everlasting life. Even as the Psalmist says
to his soul , "Who crowns you with mercy and
compassion." Well, now, is not a crown given as the
reward of good deeds ? It is, however, only because He
works good works in good men, of whom it is said, "It
is God which works in you both to will and to do of His
good pleasure," Philippians 2:13 that the Psalm has it,
as just now quoted: "He crowns you with mercy and
compassion," since it is through His mercy that we
perform the good deeds to which the crown is
awarded. It is not, however, to be for a moment
supposed, because he said, "It is God that works in you
both to will and to do of his own good pleasure," that free
will is taken away. If this, indeed, had been his
meaning, he would not have said just before, "Work out
your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Philippians 2:12 For when the command is given "to
work," their free will is addressed; and when it is added,
"with fear and trembling," they are warned against
boasting of their good deeds as if they were their own,
by attributing to themselves the performance of
anything good. It is pretty much as if the apostle had
this question put to him: "Why did you use the phrase,
'with fear and trembling'?" And as if he answered the
inquiry of his examiners by telling them, "For it is God
which works in you." Because if you fear and tremble,
you do not boast of your good works — as if they were
your own, since it is God who works within you.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

plainbibletruth:
Reward: to give money or another kind of payment to (someone or something) for something good that has been done.

Gift:
something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation.

dictionaries are usually correct except when we are talking in a particular field. I'm talking about theology not contemporary English.

actually the Bible teaches that the GIFT of eternal life is also a REWARD.

Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is
great; for in the same way they persecuted the
prophets who were before you.

Luke 6:23
"Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold,
your reward is great in heaven For in the same
way their fathers used to treat the prophets.

Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is
with Me, to render to every man according to
what he has done.

Philippians 3:14
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the
upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:26
considering the reproach of Christ greater riches
than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to
the reward.

Matthew 16:27
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory
of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN
REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.



it is a gift because we can never merit it for our self, the Bible says no one can pay his own ransom.

it is reward because God promised to crown his graces with a reward as long as we receive it and walk in accordance to it.

that is why the Bible talks of heaven as both a gift and a reward.


it isn't and either/or case as Calvin taught, it is both/and

ichuka:
OP
So ones gift can turn to reward,right?

what if the giver sets a reward for whoever receives his gift.


because that is exactly what God did, he gifted us salvation, he gifted us the ability and capacity for good works and then promised to bless us with more favour, more reward for simply receiving his gift and bearing its fruits.

that is the stupendous generously of God and I am surprised some one will prefer to reduce it because it doesn't square up with the musings of a 19th century lawyer called Calvin.


so yes, In Christ gift can turn to reward, not because we strictly merit it but because God has bound himself by promise to give it to us.

Jolliano:
Bros, Vicar doesn't mean Christ na.
It means a representative using one's authority.

he is purposely misrepresenting what Catholics believe.

brocab:
I found this on Got Questions and this is what they have to say about these two different doctrines.
Question: "Catholic vs. Protestant – why is there so much animosity?"

Answer: This is a simple question with a complicated answer, because there are varying degrees of, and reasons for, animosity between any two religious groups.
The battle between Catholics and Protestants is rooted in history.
Degrees of reaction have ranged from friendly disagreement (as reflected in the numerous ecumenical dialogues produced between the two groups) to outright persecution and murder of Protestants at the hands of Rome. Reformation teachings that identify the Pope as the Beast of Revelation and / or Roman Catholicism as Mystery Babylon are still common among Protestants.
Clearly, anyone with this view is not going to “warm up” to Rome any time soon.

For the most part, today at least, the animosity comes from basic human nature when dealing with fundamental disagreement over eternal truths.
Passions are sure to ignite in the more weighty matters of life, and one's faith is (or at least should be) at the top of the heap. Many Protestants think Roman Catholics teach a works-gospel that cannot save, while Roman Catholics think Protestants teach easy-believism that requires nothing more than an emotional outburst brought on by manipulative preaching. Protestants accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary, and Catholics think Protestants are apparently too dull to understand the distinctions Rome has made in this regard.
These caricatures are often difficult to overcome.

Behind the particular disagreements over the role of faith and works, the sacraments, the canon of Scripture, the role of the priesthood, prayers to saints, and all the issues surrounding Mary and the Pope, etc., lies the biggest rift between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism: the issue of authority. How one answers the authority question will generally inform all the other issues.
When it comes down to deciding a theological issue about defined Catholic dogma, there isn’t really much to discuss on the Catholic's side because once Rome speaks, it is settled.
This is a problem when trying to debate a Roman Catholic – reason and Scripture are not the Catholic’s final authority; they can always retreat into the “safe zone” of Roman Catholic authority.

Thus, many of the arguments between a Protestant and a Catholic will revolve around one's “private interpretation” of Scripture as against the "official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church."
Catholics claim to successfully avoid the legitimate problems of private interpretation by their reliance on their tradition.
But this merely pushes the question back a step. The truth is that both Roman Catholics and Protestants must, in the end, rely upon their reasoning abilities (to choose their authority) and their interpretive skills (to understand what that authority teaches) in order to determine what they will believe.
Protestants are simply more willing to admit that this is the case.

Both sides can also be fiercely loyal to their family's faith or the church they grew up in without much thought to doctrinal arguments. Obviously, there are a lot of possible reasons for the division between Catholicism and Protestantism, and while we should not divide over secondary issues, both sides agree that we must divide when it comes to primary issues.
When it comes to Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, the differences are just too great to ignore. However, that does not give license for caricatures or ignorant judgments – both sides need to be honest in their assessments and try not to go beyond what God has revealed.

Recommended Resource: The Unfinished Reformation: What Unites and Divides Catholics and Protestants After 500 Years by Alison & Castaldo

What's new on GotQuestions.org?

a rather simple answer, the Protestants separated themselves from the Church by sprouting new heresies they were excommunicated by the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church for sprouting new heresies.

brocab:
I wish I could make things a little easier for you to understand, but every time I write you seem to jump for glory, you jump straight in the defence mode. Not realising what I had just said, is true
Take it from me, your mother and father loves you, protecting you they would say the same, if they knew there is trouble heading your way-they will warn you or they will try and stop you from entering the dangers that lay ahead.
Why because they love you, and they care for you, like I do for the brethren.
Try opening your eye's and look at it another way, instead of running to your defence, take it as a learning.
And I am not aiming at Catholicism either, all Churches have problems, born again Christians have problems some refusing to believe, they prefer to spend more time worrying about the cares in this life, then they would spend time with God, claiming to be saved, but have chosen to walk among the wolves-because there heart can only follow after the world in selfishness, envy, strife, arguments, hatred, unforgiving, unrepentant, that's lending them to their destruction.
I could ask if you are saved under Christ Uben, but I believe you are saved under the banner of the Catholic Church, which means your Pope is God on earth, which means, he is your vicar the Christ? Jesus said: By their fruit we will know them, Uben I don't know you" believers grow in Christ-and preach His Word, Uben you don't grow to preach His Word, you preach another doctrine.
We study and learn the Word of God on all accounts, Catholicism is your account, true believers in Christ are changing from their old selves to their new selves, Uben you haven't changed since the beginning, nasty you are, and nasty you will stay, we believe in One God, One Word and One Spirit, you believe in two words, two doctrines and many spirits, ask the saints..
We pray to One God, you pray to many, we ask our mediator to pray for us, you have many mediators to pray for you..
{John 10:27} Believers recognise the voice of the Lord, and again you speak of another, Jesus said: His sheep knows His voice. Do you hear His voice.
The stories are told, that Catholicism can only hear the voice of Mary, "The 3 Children for instants..
Believers stop at nothing, we believe in one doctrine, One Lord and saviour, which means there's no other doctrines to fill our needs, none other can save us, "There's no room to be lukewarm in Christ..
{Revelations 3:16} Jesus said: Because you are lukewarm neither hot or cold, I will spue you out of My mouth.
A lukewarm Christian, is someone that don't walk nor talk with God, do you walk or talk with God? "Catholicism that believe in another doctrine had separated themselves away from the church of God.
Its a big difference between beliefs, and which God we believe, One God and One Mediator the Lord Jesus Christ..

sorry it is Protestantism that originated new teachings and separated themselves from the Church of Christ after inventing their heresies 400yrs ago

Statsocial:
And a man also single handedly built a billion naira church in a pentecostal church, a man single handedly offered to park the Church's jet. They were not paying tithe they were doing it out of their cheerful heart. So you see it is not only the Catholic Church that can survive even without preaching tithe.

if they can survive without it then why are they preaching it with so much guile?

why is one pastor preaching that people who can't pay tithe won't make it to heaven? why have they made it a condition to enter heaven.

the Pentecostal churches brought this shit storm on their own head with their unwholesome tithe emphasis.

Goshen360:
Again I don't know him. All I do is teach scriptures and if we disagree we both learn from each other with open mind...I like to question and challenge what people teach with another scriptures and if you can harmonize scriptures together with explanation then I'll look into what you teach and likewise me, I like people challenge me and how I harmonize scriptures together with explanation. That's the Berean spirit

lol,

if you are happy to examine your teachings then you should be willing to examine their origins, where they came from, who propounded them? are they historic Christian teaching or inventions by men merely 400yrs ago?

I guess the question is are those the teachings once and for all delivered to the saints or are they read into scriptures over a milenium after the apostles?

Nodogragra4me:
There is no so called ' historic Christianity' that gives Mary any role in church affairs ...As a matter of fact , early Christianity never contemplated any thought of her assuming omnipresence that the catholic church later assigned her.


The woman that parades the earth claiming to be Mary only gives out anti scriptural messages. ... You should be more concern that she doesn't mention the name of her son, Jesus Christ, in her messages.

As for intercessory prayer from anybody in heaven , you ought to know that there is no single scriptural support or insinuation of such. The person who should be praying for anyone are here on the earth ... When you return to heaven you become as angels ... Matt 22:30


You guys are always in the habit of running to satanic strongholds called tradition of the church from aeons without minding what the scripture says about such practices ..... Tradition of the church must have scriptural support or it is satanic ... The scripture is the constitution of the church and all traditions are nothing but by laws of it or they are from hell

sorry dear the canon of scriptures was invented by the Catholic Church 400yrs after Christ. the early Church taught by the apostles kept all Christian practices including your Bible.

so yes I am happy to tell you that you are ignorant of historic Christianity and the right interpretation of scriptures because the guys who invented the canon of scriptures, also could trace their discipleship back to the apostles and they bear witness to how scriptures is interpreted and lived.


since you just lied about the teaching of the early Church about Mary, read up.


St. Justin Martyr,
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin, in order that the
disobedience which proceeded from the serpent
might receive its destruction in the same manner in
which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin
and undefiled, having conceived the word of the
serpent, brought forth disobedience and death.
But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the
angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that
the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the
power of the Highest would overshadow her:
wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the
Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me
according to your word.’ ( Dialogue with Trypho, 100,
A.D. 160)

St. Irenaeus of Lyon,
[W]hat is joined together could not otherwise be put
asunder than by inversion of the process by which
these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former
ties be cancelled by the latter… […] [I]t was that the
knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the
obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had
bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary
set free through faith. ( Against Heresies, III.22.4, A.D.
180)

For just as [Eve] was led astray by the word of an
angel, so that she fled from God when she had
transgressed His word; so did [Mary], by an angelic
communication, receive the glad tidings that she
should sustain God, being obedient to His word. And
if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was
persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the
Virgin Mary might become the patroness of the
virgin Eve.
And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to
death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a
virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in
the opposite scale by virginal obedience. (Against
Heresies, V.19.1, A.D. 180)

Tertullian,
For it was while Eve was yet a virgin, that the
ensnaring word had crept into her ear which was to
build the edifice of death. Into a virgin’s soul, in like
manner, must be introduced that Word of God which
was to raise the fabric of life; so that what had been
reduced to ruin by this sex, might by the selfsame
sex be recovered to salvation. As Eve had believed
the serpent, so Mary believed the angel. The
delinquency which the one occasioned by believing,
the other by believing effaced.
But (it will be said) Eve did not at the devil’s word
conceive in her womb. Well, she at all events
conceived; for the devil’s word afterwards became as
seed to her that she should conceive as an outcast,
and bring forth in sorrow. Indeed she gave birth to a
fratricidal devil; while Mary, on the contrary, bare
one who was one day to secure salvation to Israel,
His own brother after the flesh, and the murderer of
Himself.
God therefore sent down into the virgin’s womb His
Word, as the good Brother, who should blot out the
memory of the evil brother. Hence it was necessary
that Christ should come forth for the salvation of
man, in that condition of flesh into which man had
entered ever since his condemnation. (The Flesh of
Christ , 17, A.D. 210)

St. Gregory the Wonder-worker,

When I remember the disobedience of Eve, I weep.
But when I view the fruit of Mary, I am again
renewed. Deathless by descent, invisible through
beauty, before the ages light of light; of God the
Father wast Thou begotten; being Word and Son of
God, Thou didst take on flesh from Mary Virgin, in
order that Thou mightest renew afresh Adam
fashioned by Thy holy hand. ( Homily Concerning the
Holy Mother of God Ever-Virgin , 1)

St. Jerome,
Death came through Eve, but life has come through
Mary. ( Epistle 22, 21)

St. Ephrem,
With the body then that [was] from the Virgin,
[Jesus] entered Sheol and plundered its storehouses
and emptied its treasures. He came then to Eve the
Mother of all living. This is the vine whose fence
Death laid open by her own hands, and caused her
to taste of his fruits. So Eve the Mother of all living
became the well-spring of death to all living. But
Mary budded forth, a new shoot from Eve the
ancient vine; and new life dwelt in her, that when
Death should come confidently after his custom to
feed upon mortal fruits, the life that is slayer of
death might be stored up [therein] against him…
(Homily on Our Lord , 3)
Let women praise Her, the pure Mary — that as in
Eve their mother, great was their reproach — lo! In
Mary their sister, greatly magnified was their honor.
[…] Of him the Lord said, that he had fallen from
Heaven.— The Abhorred One had exalted himself;
from his uplifting he has fallen. The foot of Mary has
trod him down, who bruised Eve with his heel.
(Hymns on the Nativity , 15)

St. Augustine,
Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took
the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female
he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here:
that just as death comes to us through a woman,
life is born to us through a woman; that the devil,
defeated, would be tormented by each nature,
feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in
the defection of both. ( Christian Combat 22.24, A.D.
396)

of course you know your teachings are 19th century inventions

Nodogragra4me:
You don't know how to use Google or you are looking to find it in your catholic doctored sites ...Your church says they are writing their version of history to counter that of their victims....So don't be surprised when you wake up and can't find some facts anymore online ...Your church is the biggest capitalist on earth

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/7641/was-any-pope-imprisoned-during-his-service-to-catholic-church



Then you dont know the history,... The croats who were catholics first engage in genocide and when the Serbs had the support they went for revenge.... But for American intervention they were ready to wipe out the croats ...Go and read ...I won't recommend any title for you

again your ignorance is showing.

Pope John xxii was not imprisoned, not once is he named in the site you provided.


sorry for your slanted history, the civil war began when the Serbs fired at a Croats peaceful protest.

read up.

When Izetbegović was
elected president of Bosnia and Herzegovina and moved
toward the country’s independence, his main rival, the
Bosnian-Serb leader Radovan Karadžić and his party,
received arms and money from Serbia. Serb nationalist
militia and fired at the crowd that marched for peace and
national unity in Sarajevo on April 5, 1992, thus igniting a
civil war. Karadžić planned a partition of the country
fighting for a Serb territory “cleansed” of Muslims and
Croats. He is at this writing the principal war criminal
tried before the International Criminal Tribunal for the
ICTY at The Hague. Yet the international community
allowed the Serb territory to become a state within the
state pursuing secessionist policies.

www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199935420.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199935420-e-37

Nodogragra4me:
Your history is slanted ...The pope excommunicated him. He severed relationship with Roma ... Rome returns the Fabour by declaring anathema against him ...Anyone who successfully removed him gets a ticket to heaven ...The black Jesus and supporters of Rome , started plotting coup, they were unsuccessful and paid the price of every failed coup

Constantine was declared the head of your church and those who rejected his headship got the worst forms of death known to humanity .... Constantine was not even a born again Christian but a pagan and a war general. He brought the church. Of Rome to gather that he wanted to be a member. They welcomed him then he ask for titles equivalent to the ones he was bearing as the head of the pagan religion and got it ...He fused the Christian and pagan Worship hence some of the unscriptural practices and doctrine of your church.

Those purple attires of your bishop were adopted or copied from him. They were his dressing mode whenever he was performing his pagan function

Constantine was never, NEVER EVER, declared head of the Church, but of course you are totally ignorant and prefer to lie through your anus. the first guy to stupidly call himself head of the Church was the stupid guy called king Henry who taught it was cool to take the place that isn't is, it is even stupider that some people called Protestant believed his lies.


as for slanted history you should be given a degree for having all of history upside down. Henry declared himself head of the Church and began killing any one who disagreed even BEFORE he was excommunicated, he was already murdering all who could see his heresy even before the Pope declared he was an unjust ruler.

sir Thomas more, Bishop Fisher and countless others never committed any crime except to tell the truth that the King according to the new testament could never be the head of the Church. funny enough the Jesuits weren't plotting coups.

Statsocial:
It is voluntary in the Catholic Church as it is in most mainstream Churches.

Most Churches don't predicate Membership upon Tithing. Therefore you can be a member for 20 years and chose not to give.

I have spent 20 years of my life in ECWA. My Grandfather is an Anglican Clergy and I am hoping the Orthodox Churches are doubling down on its message endorsing Tithing.

Already a long serving pastor(decades) in ECWA collects 45,000 Naira per month after tithe deduction probably because many who belief in Tithing were actually not Tithing. What now happens if you allow the nonsense on social media fly.

This so called Anti tithe campaign is being directed at Pentecostals. However, it is Orthodox Churches that would take the First hit because leadership there can be too democratic. Pentecostals on the other hand are centralised theocracies and would be the last to take a hit in finance(that is if they ever take a hit). If anything most Pentecostal members are just irritated by this campaign.
Lalasticlala

the anti tithe campaign will hardly affect Catholics, for centuries they haven't preached tithe yet the Church hasn't died.

give cheerfully from your heart has always been enough for the Church, some gave 1% others 30, others 50, some people sold their entire wealth and gave it to the Church. nobody was stupid enough to claim that it is a divine law of prosperity that one must pay a 10th of his income and support it using old testament laws, that is just a way of conning people of their wealth by claiming it is a debt that must be paid.

samuelezekiel:


Yes we agree that bowing down doesn't mean one is in worship, worship comes from the heart. Only God knows those that worship him truly

Amen

JMAN05:
True, singleness makes someone to focus in spiritual things without distraction associated with marriage. I believe Paul's advise is so that one can have less distraction. Not necessarily no-corruption as you seem to opine. Singleness does not prevent corruption. Secondly, one can still put kingdom first while married. I can mention Peter and Philip as good examples. I wouldn't say that Peter and Philip were more corrupt than Paul since they were married. Would you say that?

I want to inquire, can't one become a bishop without his being a missionary? Is there any biblical injunction against that?

2. With regards to rev frs, I want to understand from your comment that it is not a church policy nor scriptural injunction that all reverend fathers can marry? It appears that in some part of the world, the church allows it, while restricting it for some areas? Church policy, not scripture I guess?

there is corruption both for married and single but it is different, the single guy doesn't give Church property to his kids since he doesn't have kids. peter wasn't more corrupt than Paul but he wasn't able to cover as much ground as Paul.

you can be a bishop and not be a missionary.


it is both Church policy and scriptural advice. The Bible says singleness is better, the Church choses the better one in her bishops and others especially in the west, she keeps married priest too even though it isn't the best according to scriptures in the east.

solite3:
was God not existing before Mary? Mary gave birth to a man called Jesus not God. Jesus relationship with Mary ends in the flesh it does not go beyond it. Mary is dead now that relationship has ended.

so the baby Mary gave birth to wasn't God abi? when did the divinity enter the baby since you say Mary only gave birth to mere flesh.?

solite3:
was God the Son not in existence before Mary?, you are not making sense.

you are the one not making sense.

a mother is someone who conceives and bears a son, that is what Mary did, God was in her womb and she gave birth to him, she is the theotokus, bearer of God.