₦airaland Forum

Investnow2017:
Just curious. Did the early Christians worship Mary as the Chatholics do today? Any evidence?

1 st Catholics are always happy to correct anyone who makes the mistake of thinking Catholics worship Mary.


2nd the early Christians are all Catholics in belief and practice.

Emyogalanya:
WILL IT MAKE HER LESS HOLY IF HE DID TOUCH HER? WILL IT MAKE JESUS LESS CHRIST? ITS NOT THE BIRTH OF JESUS THAT SAVED US IT IS HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS AND I MAKE BOLD TO SAY THAT IF JESUS DID NOT DIE EVEN MARY WONT BE SAVED

how will Jesus die if he wasn't born?


and I make bold to agree that no one will be saved without the birth, life and death of Christ

cyrilamx:
Your reaction shows u really ignorant of biblical exegesis. Your mind is so carnal that it can grasp spiritual things...no wonder there is so much confusion in pentecostalism resulting in splinter group emerging daily and erroneously claiming scholarship of the holy scripture. You think the humanity of Christ was separated from his divinity? I won't blame you because 3months of ur so-called Bible studies without the advantage Church history is really a set back in scriptural analysis to pentecostals. In christ Jesus, there are two natures- the nature of God as Son begotten of the Father from all eternity and nature of Man, born of the Virgin Mary at appointed time. However in christ Jesus, there is One Person- the second person of the blessed trinity. Just as humans have a spirit which is the person so Christ have a divine person. The Church fathers called the union of the two natures of Christ in on Person as the HYPOSTATIC UNION. So what was conceived in the womb of the blessed virgin was God the son who became man while still remaining God. That is why Mary is called God-bearer. In Greek the THEOTOKOS. MARY didn't give birth to a human Jesus distinct from the Person of Christ rather she conceived in her the second person of the blessed Trinity hence the Church Father at the council of Ephesus in 431 rightly called her Mother of God...and Jesus her son as God is not ashamed to call her mother. Pentecostalism should go and have a thorough scholarship in sacred scripture and stop misinterpreting same to the destruction of souls.

Amen wow, you are a teacher

LaaJiblik:
But what is the EXACT Biblical source that specifically said Mary REMAINED a Virgin all through her life?
What is the origin of this fallacy?
I can’t find anywhere in the Bible where Mary was said to have remained a Virgin ALL through her life.


Or maybe you have another source? Maybe you have a book?
“The AutoBiography of Mary, Mother of Jesus and Wife of Joseph”

Maybe that’s the source material?
Apart from the Bible and the Quar’an; is there any other source material which x-rays the life of Mary?
Maybe if we read that material, we will see where it expressly states that Joseph immediately became celibate, and Mary remained a Virgin all through her life.

you are forgetting the writings of the early Christians... those were written before the Koran.

bloodmoneyspita:
they will be supported by the false prophet the Catholic Church.

the Catholic Church is going to bring all faith into one faith.

lol,

some people are always looking for excuse to bash Catholic Church.
weytin concern Catholic for this topic?

Gaddafithe2nd:
Some people's comments shows many don't understand the world politics. Most comments here are based on their religion affiliations. I noticed most Nigerian Christians are in support of Trump's decision to move US embassy to Jerusalem. The UNGA last night resolution is about humanity not religion. Zionist state of Israel is a rogue/terrorist state. Everyone knows the land belongs to the Palestinians. The state of Israel is illegal.

Since the creation of Israel, no Catholic pope (both past and present) support the state of Israel. Nigerian Christians should read history books, everything is not about religion. The state of Israel doesn't even like Christians, they have more muslims than Christians. Palestine has more Christians than the state of Israel but myopic people don't know that.

Lastly, Nigerian foreign policy has always being in support of the state of Palestine. Our past leaders, both Christians and Muslims have always supports Palestine only GEJ is the black sheep. Africa has a whole supports Palestine, only the poor ones are in support of Israel just because of aids.
Bleep Trump and Netanyahu.

actually the last 3 Catholic Popes have supported Israel but they disagree with this move

analize701:
I see you don't kbow that when you type with Higher Keys/ Caplocks it means shouting.

Like i said, i have no time for take you up on this, keep on with your Hellenistic pagan religion.

but Chukwudi has enough charity to engage a follower of 16 century invention of men heretic.

analize701:
So now it's competition?

The difference between you Catholics and us is that, you cover your sins up and defend your evils, but we expose the evil people in our midst.

Satan hates to be exposed, he does everything to protect his acts and cover up.

Saaaaad.

actually the article Chukwudi referenced says you guys also cover your sins... the only difference is that you guys have small mushroom churches so when you guys are caught few people learn of it.

analize701:
Now the Catholic Priest has declared his abominable stance, we should all treat it as a normal thing, but when an Anglican Priest declared his, you Catholics called a Crusade against the Protestants abi?

And, lying or fornication is a sin, but homosexuality is an abomination. YHWH said that, i didn't.

I judged you a very intelligent person. pls don't say this, it's a spoiler.

If this man does not commit Sodomy with other Priests or people outside the Priesthood, why then is it important for him to publicly declare it?

If i don't drink, why should i go about declaring publicly that i have thirst or longing for Alcohol?

Why will i do that except i want to declare my stance in case someone sees me drinking alcohol, so it won't seem a shock to the person?

Abeg sir. What that priest has done is telling everyone that he has no interest for women unlike other priests, his preference is for men and no one shd be surprised in case he is seen handling a boy.

if I am an alcoholic who doesn't drink then my story may help other struggling with alcoholism.


no one said sodomy is okay but I won't compare a celibate Catholic priest with same sex attraction to a Protestant minister who has both a gay boy friend and got married in a Protestant church with the Church agreeing.

one is committing an "abomination" the other isn't.

Prosper123:
He didn't make an outrageous claim; it is true. How can you tell a man not to marry in this generation and expect him to remain a celibate. Many of the Priests you see today are gays, or womanizers. I am talking from experience. One wanted to commit gay sex with me. Another confronted my friend. It normally starts from seminary schools. I passed seminary school, went there for interview. We slept over. That night was something else. After, I couldn't study there again. The Reverend father in my secondary school who was the manager was carrying women like water. The students even filmed him 'dealing with women'. All these are real among us. The truth must be told no matter who is involved

we can start throwing our rumours around abi?

my friend who is a receptionist in a hotel also told me a story of a popular married pastor who is a sex machine and sends lots of time with prostitutes after buying condom.

I have a feeling I can match you story for story, did celibacy cause that too.

DoctorAlien:
Is anyone surprised that homosexuality, child abuse and all forms of abominable sexual sins pervade the ranks of Catholic priesthood, where everyone of them is required to be celibate?

I am not surprised at all. Some of their popes did even worse.

now we can all start listing every Church leader we know in an apparent shit throwing contest.

even in your Protestant churches without celibacy we still find homosexuality, child abuse and all forms of abominable sexual sins in their clergy...did the bad Catholic popes also cause that one.

analize701:
Fine, Since he is not to act on that attraction as a Celibate Priest, why did he declare it?

because there are many people in America who has same sex attraction and the world is telling them that it is right and good to act out this attraction and that those who don't act it out are simply archaic, the lgbt crowd will advise such people to commit sodomy, he is presenting his own life to show that such narrative is untrue... one may suffer same sex attraction without giving in to sodomy but instead work for God.


his life is an example that one can resist temptations to sodomy even when he suffers SSA.

in his own words,
“Because of this, there are no authentic role models of
healthy, well-balanced, gay, celibate priests to be an
example for those, young and old, who are struggling
to come to terms with their sexual orientation.This only
perpetuates the toxic shaming and systemic secrecy.”

Prosper123:
Many Priest who were gays were not defrocked. Make research very well. Like the ones I encountered, even my friend. How can you know if I don't tell you. Many are hidden. The system is the fault. Let's use our common sense, how can Priest or expect men to die celibate in this generation. You can't cheat nature. That is why even the papacy advocated for marriage in Priesthood

actually the Bible says you can cheat nature for it tells us some people will be celibate for the sake of God's kingdom.

if it is impossible as you claimed, the Bible won't say it can be done. that means you are wrong and incorrect.

Prosper123:
What did 1 Timothy 4 say
1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

It says that a time will come when men will forbid people from marriage. It's not from God. You don't know this one yet you gave us Bible and you are the first church. Nonsense. Do you know when Islam started and you can see how fast they are growing. When they started and their population doesn't make them a true religion.

if you want to know what it means to forbid marriage read up the carthars, don't just come and spew half ignorant rubbish.

analize701:
Question: "What is the cause of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Why are there pedophile priests in the Roman Catholic Church?"

Answer: In recent years, hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals have come forward claiming sexual abuse from priests in the Roman Catholic Church. Numerous "pedophile priests" have been identified. Sadly, rather than defrocking the priests (removing from the priesthood), the Catholic Church has in most instances attempted to cover up the sexual abuse by transferring the offending priest(s) to different parishes. The scandal and attempted cover-up continues to expand, reaching all the way to the papacy itself. So, what is the cause of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Why does pedophilia seem to be such a common problem among Roman Catholic priests?


what is the cause of the sexual abuse that has taken place in the Roman Catholic Church? Our contention is that the unbiblical requirement that priests be celibate is a primary cause. It is biblical to say that celibacy can be useful to ministry (1 Corinthians 7:32-34). At the same time, it is completely unbiblical for any church to require celibacy of its leaders. In the qualifications of church leadership (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9), the apostle Paul assumes that bishops, elders, overseers, and deacons will be married and have children. While these qualifications should not be viewed as requiring marriage/family to serve in church leadership, they are most definitely an allowance for married men to serve as leaders in the church. It is, therefore, completely anti-biblical for any church to require celibacy of its leaders.

The unbiblical requirement of celibacy on priests in the Roman Catholic Church likely contributes to sexual abuse in that men whom God never intended to be celibate are forced into celibacy, resulting in sexual tension and stress. Also, the stricture of celibacy is appealing to some men with abnormal sexual tendencies who view the priesthood as a means of keeping their desires under control. These men find that external rules do little to change the heart, and, when they give in to sexual temptations, the result is unnatural sexual acts, such as homosexuality or pedophilia.

Compounding the problem is the Catholic teaching of “once a priest, always a priest.” The fact that the “sacred ordination” cannot be invalidated has contributed to a reluctance to defrock pedophile priests. When abusive priests are transferred to different parishes, the same behavior is repeated. Also, lax rule enforcement and cover-ups have encouraged the application of pedophiles to the priesthood. Many pedophiles see the priesthood as a means of easy, unsupervised access to children.

Whatever the cause of the sexual abuse in the church, pedophile priests should be arrested and punished just as any other pedophile would be. Anyone covering up or, by negligence, enabling pedophilia in the church should be prosecuted. A priest who has sexually abused anyone should never be allowed back into church leadership, as he could most definitely not be considered "above reproach" (1 Timothy 3:2).

The pedophile priest scandal in the Roman Catholic Church is absolutely horrid. There is nothing more antithetical to the message of Christ than priests sexually abusing children. May God use this scandal to awaken the church of Jesus Christ to the presence of apostates within the church and to strongly motivate the church to be fully biblical in all of its beliefs and practices.

if the cause of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church is celibacy abeg tell me what is the cause of sexual abuse in the Protestant Church?


dear Lord save us from hypocrisy.

hopefulLandlord:
er, Celibacy and attraction are two different things

a Celibate would chose not to act on the attraction but getting the attraction doesn't mean he/she was not celibate to begin with

please help me inform him.he can't differentiate between an attraction and the act.



dear Lord why do certain Protestants suddenly lose their reasoning faculty any time they hear any thing about the Catholic Church?

Prosper123:
of course. Many priests are married. Secretly married. Or married by mistake.

not secretly or by mistake. priest may be married. there are many married priest and it has been so for centuries.

analize701:
What are you saying? A celibates should not have any sexual attraction at all, whether to men or woman, except you are trying to say, they are indeed not celibates.


Apostle Paul was celibate, we never heard he was attracted to women.

What a shame. All the lies and deception.

sorry dear but this is so dull.


why shouldn't a celibate man have sexual attraction, is he an alien? sorry dear, that sounded stupid.


every human being I know has a person or persons he is attracted to, it is natural and part of our make up, that one chooses not to express this natural attraction doesn't make them disappear.

I am celibate, neither lust or formication or porn or sexual immorality of any sort is acceptable in my life but that doesn't change the fact that I am attracted to ladies and sometimes I just thank God for his creation.


every human has sexuality it is part of how God made us, even when we decide not to give it rein it is still just as we all feel the urge to eat even though some people like fasting.


in as much as the apostle Paul was a human like me and you, he had sexuality and was at one time or the other sexually attracted to someone even though he was celibate

sarrki:
Do you have half of rather Quarter of the brain he has ?

He's not a mere commentator

He's a world religious leader

he is also on ground, not some face in a computer 20000 km away.

Prosper123:
You know what it means. First, Priests took a vow of celibacy. But homosexuality? It should not be mentioned

same sex attraction is a disorder, sodomy is the sin... this priest has a disorder as far as I can tell he hasn't committed any sin.



homosexuality can be a sin just like any other sin, I don't understand why you put it in a class of its own.

analize701:
ought not the priest be celibate? How does the issue of Homosexuality come in, or are they indirectly telling the world that they are indeed not celibate?

This is strange. Does this mean he engages in sexual activities with other men in the Priesthood? And he was given a standing Ovation.

Step by Step, the Catholic church is unfolding it's long term agenda.

he is celibate.

the wahala is, celibate priest are suppose to be attracted to ladies, this one is attracted to men.

he has same sex attraction, that can happen even if the person is celibate.

MicheyJ1:
Homosexuality is a common practice amongst Catholics

the fallacy of judging a whole by the few.

PaChukwudi44:
Once it is confirmed he will be on his way out of the Catholic priesthood. As the article says, there is no provision for anyone with homosexual tendencies in the Catholic seminary let alone the priesthood

it is not so clear cut... a lot depends on his Bishop.


there is a guideline that prevents people with same sex attraction from becoming priests. In fact the seminaries are suppose to make sure a same sex attracted person never become a priest.

But there is no law that says a same sex attracted person who is already a priest and is keeping all his vows and discharging all his duties should be pursued from the priesthood.

in fact I don't think his same sex attraction is enough reasons for him to be laicized.... he hasn't committed a crime worth such treatment...he is celibate.... he may be suspended and even curtailed but all that depends on his Bishop, he may also go scot free, he suffers from a disordered affection he hasn't committed a crime.

Lord have Mercy. what have men done in your name?

AkunnaTochi:
Catholic all d way i love d eucharist even though the last time i attended mass was 15 months ago i pray for the grace to start attemding mass regularly

Please, see that you start attending Masses again. God bless.

what is the problem dear one, why haven't you been to mass?

joshnes:
ken4christ thanks for your last quote. Works as you said determine reward, not salvation. Hence some christians will be rewarded more than others. Once you accept Christ, you're saved, works will not increase or reduce your salvation. If works could save or preserve salvation then it will be useless preaching to a dying man, because, he will not have the chance to work. Salvation is an inheritance not a reward. You don't work for an inheritance you are born (again) into it, but you will have to work for a reward.

salvation is both inheritance and reward

Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the
Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the
Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance
It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

joshnes:
I am sorry ubenedictus but you're wrong. Firstly, works will not make you attain salvation, belief in Jesus gives salvation. Eternal life is not a reward, but an inheritance. You don't work for an inheritance, you're born into it, in this case born again into it. Works determine reward not salvation. If works makes you attain salvation, then it will be useless for anyone to accept Christ on a death bed. Secondly, I never supported disobedience, if you read what you quoted well I said works are highly important for a christian, highly important. Works are an offshoot of your faith, you can't say you're saved and revel in disobedience. Jesus Himself went about doing good but, works will not enhance or reduce your salvation, definitely influence your reward.

Firstly I never claimed works make people attain salvation. especially when you seem to talk of salvation mainly as justification.

In fact what I believe is different.

I believe, man is saved by Grace through faith apart from works, that is justification. I also believe that man is saved so that he may perform the good work for which God foreordained him to walk in just as the apostle Paul teach.
I also agree with scriptures as it says who who does righteous deeds is righteous and that falls under sanctification. then finally I believe as scripture teaches that will grant eternal life to those who do righteous deeds and damn those who live in sin
Romans 2:6-10 ESV
He will render to each one according to his works: to
those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory
and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey
the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be
wrath and fury.

as such eternal life in heaven is both inheritance and reward.
Romans 8:17
and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow
heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so
that we may also be glorified with Him.

note the Conditional If
Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the
Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the
Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance
It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
the Bible calls it REWARD OF INHERITANCE, the inheritance is a reward.


work do impart you salvation, one who is saved but doesn't work has refused to fulfill the very reason for which God created him infact such a persons faith will not save him.

.

Ken4Christ:
There Are those who also will fall away from the faith. Grace becomes effective when We do the right things.

What about those who completely withdraw through commitment to God. The Bible says they do so to their own destructions - Hebrews 10:38-39.

Amen

nicemuyoo:
LUTHER, MARTIN; August 27, 1525
HOW CHRISTIANS SHOULD REGARD MOSES he spoke on tithing and he completely rejected tithing. jesus, john, peter, paul , james, early church never taught or collected tithe. roman catholic introduced tithing to church in 777AD by order of emperior. tithing was stopped in rome and uk due to revolt/ rioting by congregation as it was making people impoverished taken from the poor and making clergy fat and rich.

hmm, the tithe wasn't introduced by an emperor, The first recorded legislation is found in a letter of the Bishops assembled at Tours, France m 567 and the canons of the Council of Macon in 585, they were conciliar decisions....
apart from that you are correct that Martin Luther was against tithe... but I never claimed he taught tithe.


I said he never claimed the Church didn't have the right to collect and distribute alms.


I never mentioned tithes in my post, you are arguing with yourself.

OkaiCorne:
This would open another round of discussions. You might be coming from the angle of "love covers a multitude of sins", but that was a case of twisting the scriptures to meet the desires of a greedy few in the days of Martin Luther.

You may correct me if I am wrong though. Who were these indulgences paid to...the poor or to the church leadership? (i.e. in Martin Luther's days)

Cheers

according to scripture it was the job of the Church leader to collect and to distribute alms collected


act 4 … 34 There were no needy ones among them, because
those who owned lands or houses would sell their
property, bring the proceeds from the sales, 35 and
lay them at the apostles’ feet for distribution to
anyone as he had need.
… 36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the
apostles called Barnabas (meaning Son of
Encouragement), 37 sold a field he owned, brought
the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

the alms collected in those days range from donations to the upkeep of the Church and her ministers and those for the poor. Martin Luther never challenged the right of the Church to collect such donations instead he was angry that they were over emphasized, that those who give are not reminded to confess their sins, then finally the challenged the power of the Church to teach and declare that punishment due to sins are remitted to those who give. He never said the Church shouldn't collect the alms instead he said the Church shouldn't tell people their alms covered their sins.

there were some abuses of process at that time and the Church corrected them but Luther never said the Church shouldn't collect alms.

joshnes:
ken4christ, you're write ups are cool, but I still believe the word "preserve" in this context is wrong. No doubt that good works are of high importance in christianity but as to the preservation or keeping of salvation, works cannot preserve what grace gives. Even the works themselves are by-products of grace (Titus 2:11-12). God Himself has the sole responsibility of preserving what He gives "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless...." (Jude:24). "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1Peter 1:5). Works in itself are more like signs for men and not for God (Matt 5:16). God has called us unto good works to the glory of His name (1Peter 2:12), not unto the preservation of our salvation. He will keep me and preserve me and I will live my life according as He pleases in appreciation.

God calls us to good works not just to give glory to himself but also that through it he may attain unto so great a salvation (glory), that we were promise.

John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son
has eternal life; whoever does not obey
the Son shall not see life, but the wrath
of God remains on him

don't be deceived by any that you are not under wrath if you live in disobedience. he who believes must be careful to obey.


in fact good works is a reason for which we were created.
Ephesians 2:8-10

it will be the basis for eternal life or wrath.
Romans 2:6-10 ESV
He will render to each one according to his works: to
those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory
and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey
the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be
wrath and fury.


lastly you are correct that God himself preserves our salvation and the Bible tells us how he does it, he multiply his grace in us so that we may not be wanting in good works.


Philippians 2:13 ESV
For it is God who works in you, both to will and to
work for his good pleasure.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you,
so that always having all sufficiency in everything,
you may have an abundance for every good deed;

Goshen360:
This is gospel as simple as ABC and I've been preaching the same thing. Some folks here are just out to say whatever they like to say. Thank you!

I hope you are aware that the fact that you teach same doesn't make it true.

if you think some folks are saying what they like then man up and rebut/refute them