₦airaland Forum

sirjec:
You see these Nairalanders, it is sufficient for us to talk on tribes and criticize other tribes, criticize GEJ and other government official and politicians, criticize dead corp members, do anything we wish, but do not insult God or his anointed servant.

We know in parts and we speak in parts, but God knows everything. So, Let us not do God's work because we can attract God's wrath. Touch not my anointed and do my prophet no harm.

We know that there are fake men of God but let us leave it for God to punish them like HE did in the days of Jeremiah.

Please OP delete this topic

This is exactly one of the views i so much despise! 

Annointed men of God are entitled to 10% of people's earnings, along with several gift items which could come in the form of cars, goats, plasma tvs etc etc.
Annointed men of God must never be questioned, they are higher humans and are free to do what they wish, questioning them would be much akin to insulting God.

Ask yourself What Would Jesus Do?  Give 10% of his salary to a Pastor who already has two luxurious Jets parked in his hanger along with a fleet of cars. . . . . or give the money to his neighbour who could barely survive on 2 meals a day?. . . .Let's say in this instance, Jesus could only part with 10% of his salary?

Universal Laws of the universe, there is seed time and there is harvest time, It can also be called " God's law", I don't know about you but anytime I put obsene money down as 'tithe' my fortune changes, there is something airy about this concept but it works like magic, hence why the Church is big business in Nigeria

would this same law apply if you decide not to give the church your tithe but instead decide to put it to fund a water project in your community or feed a family of six?  It would be an unfair law if it doesn't, No?

Church is simply a big business in Nigeria because it is easy to convince people that if they don't part with 10% of their earnings, they are either not going to be successful or they are going to hell. . .what surprises me however is that this doctrine is preached only in Africa, peharps because most Africans tend to be gullible? in nature?
I ve been attending a fellowship in church where members are mostly british, and I am yet to see a situation where a deep bowl is passed around for congregration to put their hard earned cash in,. . .are these people sinning for not collecting tithes from the Public?

I was soooo mad when a couple of years ago back in school, someone advised i pay tithe on my pocket money. . .seriously?

This is just a massive fraud, clearly the money is not ending up in God's pocket, the monies, only end up in bank bullions, and jet purchase!

Even the Jews, the original custodians of religious teachings, don't pay tithe today, where is Nigeria getting its own form of Christianity from?

wesley80:
Violent,
I go to church to fulfill a religious obligation not to practice a democracy. If I trust a Pastor well enuff to sit among his congregation at least once a week for a minimum of 3hrs, then I believe he's capable of managing whatever funds r in his care. Pity u have no clue as to how most big churches r run but for most there r structures and hierarchies and procedures. Whatever is the case, my obligation ends when i give, i have no business questioning how my money is spent, if i'm not comfortable with what i'm seeing i'm free to walk afterall dem no bury my placenta there. Religion isnt something meant to be rationalized, it is incomprehensible to the carnal man (woman) - of which we've got quite a number on this thread.

Gosh!  Nigerians are dumb! so so so dumb!  Give me your money and ask no questions. . . .gosh! i feel like i've wasted my life trying to obtain professional degree when i should have just become a Pastor!

I remember asking this same question in a Nigerian church here in the UK and the following is what i got from the congregation

my obligation ends when i give, i have no business questioning how my money is spent, if i'm not comfortable with what i'm seeing i'm free to walk

I walked!. . .simple! 

This is not meant to be a religious thread, but do you folks even think it makes any sense to ask that if Jesus nor the apostles haven't mention tithing for just once then it must be like several other Jewish traditions that are now irrelevant?. . .No?

The brain washing going on within the religious spheres of naija is mouth gapping!

*****Give me your money, ask no questions****

naijaking1:
If you find a way to explain the Christian faith to non-believing muslim, please let me know

No son,. . . . . . I am more of the Christian who believes in loving God and loving your neighbors, . . . . .I am more of the person who believes that God is not interested in your money but the content of your heart and your humbleness in worship. . . .

Your Pastors are cunning liars who only want to steal from you, they'd throw everything at you in the name of religious obligation, fck that shyt, Jesus wasn't even obeying any religious obligation while on earth!

wake up you ídiots!

wesley80:
Tax Churches? Based on what criteria? Profits, Returns Or donations? The terms u lot r using are sickening to say the least. Y are my hearing words like rip-off! Who's being ripped off? People PAY their tightes as a religious obligation not cos they r fooled into doin so. And why do u think the gullible foools keep goin back every month to pay even more tightes? You think there's nothing in it for them? For Christ's sake there r educated, civilised and prosperous people that r able to make rational decisions in churches and they give what they do cos they believe in it and it works for them (it sure does for me) these whole concept of churches being a get rich scam is dumb and malicious. Pastor Chris has got over a million followers on Twitter( dont take my word for it) and u guys expect him to be a poor man? Whatever these successful pastors have 2day, they've earned it a couple of years ago he was shouting himself hoarse around a university campus without even a bullhorn! Now he's got millions of followers across 5 continents and u expect him to be sitting crammed up in economy class? Seriously u lot need to get a life.

one question.

What percentage of tithes, offerings, donations, etc etc do you suppose is fair that Pastors keep for themselves? the entire lot of it?

oh another question {i know i said one}

shouldn't pastors be publishing a detailed account of how much is being received and how much is being spent?. . . or is it God's money and God took it, don't ask, don't tell?

Seun:
I think it's clear where Bishop David Oyedepo made his money from: tithes, offerings, and special offerings.  There is no question or controversy about that, at all.  I went to Winners Chapel once before they moved to Canaanland, and they definitely had thousands of members even then.  If you have a congregation of just 5000 people paying you 10% of their income, that means you'll be making 500 times what they earn on average.  Sweet eh?   If I could convince every Nairalander to give me 10% of their income, I would be super rich!  So that's not the controversy at all.

when a single individual convinces another or a group to part with 10% of his/their earnings for some substantial expected earnings it becomes very difficult to understand the difference between scammers who do so illegally and those who preach it without being regulated!----a big fraud!!!

More depressing is the ideology that has been ingrained in the minds of Nigerians that asking questions or demanding explanations on how your fund has been used is considered rebellious!---wtf?

If someone is collecting 10% of your earnings on a weekly basis, shouldn't you be asking questions on the exact percentage the dude is keeping or allowed to keep for himself?

Nigerians are starting to deviate from their title of being the happiest to being the dumbest people on earth. . . perhaps they were all along?


oh and all that asides, we could set up a Nairaland bible believer's church---hallelujah, we'gon be effing rich

wesley80:
You guys really expect someone versed enough to pack out a 50000 seat auditorium to be a poor man? Sometimes i find it hard to believe u guys r supposed to be intelligent. Are there not orators and motivational speakers out there living the good life with much less than the followership these pastors command? Ok i get your flawed reasoning, pastors r supposed to poor, dirty and blind to living the good life because they serve God right?
And What makes u think everyone attending a church is wretched and illiterate? Just cos u guys have a voice on a faceless forum does not mean you know any better than anyone walking the streets or sittin in churches so the least u can do is respect people beliefs. Giving, not just to the poor and needy but also to your 'man of God' is an integral part of many a Christians belief and the appropriateness of it is not something i think i can reason out with a bunch of Sardonic atheists.

It's not about expecting pastors to be a poor man, it's about expecting Pastors to do the right things with the tithes and offerings---they ought to do what it says on the pack i.e give it out to the poor, not spend it on endless bottomless undefined "logistics"!

Don Moen pulls twice the crowd that Oyedepo pulls any day any time, and yet, not a quarter as rich as the dude!

One of em preaches the love of Christ, the other simply screams "Pay your tithes and expect twice as much"---question is, where does this tithe go?  how much of these tithes does the Pastor now claim in his bank account?  how much is the Pastor's salary?

If someone's been making billions telling people "Pay your tithes, sow into the house of God". . . .how exactly does this differ from a ponzi scheme?

I saw this excerpt when digging about Kenneth Copeland

Senate investigation

On November 6, 2007, United States Senator Chuck Grassley, Republican of Iowa, announced an investigation of Copeland's ministry by the United States Senate Committee on Finance. The Associated Press reported that Grassley said the investigation was a response to complaints from the public and news media. Grassley stated, "The allegations involve governing boards that aren't independent and allow generous salaries and housing allowances and amenities such as private jets and Rolls Royces." [18] [size=14pt]IRS guidelines require that pastors' compensation be "reasonable" and net earnings may not benefit any private individual[/size].[19] Grassley asked for the ministry to divulge financial information [20] (Grassley's letter)[21] to the committee to determine if Copeland made any personal profit from financial donations, and requested that Copeland's ministry make the information available by December 6, 2007. The Copelands responded with a "Financial report from Kenneth Copeland Ministries."[22] KCM created a website to help explain their side of the inquiry.[23]

. . . ours is a society where the government watch as the weakest get exploited!  wait a minute, isn't the government itself exploiting us all?

ode remo:
some body shout allellllluyaaaa.
nigeria shall not be ruled an evil person again halleylllllluuuyaaah

Lmao!

^^

But even at that, let's say make a few assumptions:

given no prior business background or jackpot, l would be assuming that he started his church business on a budget sum, let's assume being modest, 500 grand.

This money was to take care of renting church buildings, buying equipments, tv campaigns etc etc.

Let's assume that for the first year of this church business, he managed a seizable congregation of 200 people.  Let's say the average person pays 200 naira offering every Sunday.  Given 48 days a year, this sums to  1.92 million annually.  

This amount doesn't really look like something you could build a university, biggest church in Africa, and own a fleet of cars plus an expensive jet on!

there's got to be someone paying for those--No?


It shocks me the way the poor could be convinced to part with their savings, all for the already rich guy to add more cars to his garage! I think I am going to begin a campaign against tithe giving!

@ekt bear & Sun of god:

To be honest, i don't quite get why these things just happen to be a norm in Nigeria?  I used to think the Oyedepo dude was into gold business before establishing his multimillion naira church business, apparently i was wrong, thus the curiosity, how did he become so rich?

wealth is a zero sum game, unless you have a printing machine in your room, who's / what's paying for this dude's luxurious lifestyle?

why doesn't anyone question anyone's source of riches in Nigeria? it's quite disturbing to be honest!

Yes, the topic is exactly what it says!  I am looking for opinions of broad minded knowledgeable Nigerians here.

How did Bishop David Oyedepo become so wealthy?

I have done a bit of research into the dude's profile and all i seem to get is;

David O. Oyedepo, affectionately called Papa by his followers (born September 27, 1954) is a Nigerian Christian author, Preacher and the founder and Presiding Bishop of Living Faith Church World Wide also known as Winners Chapel and its affiliated International churches known as Winners Chapel International, with headquarters in Ogun State, Nigeria. He is also the senior pastor of the acclaimed Faith Tabernacle,a 50,000 seat church auditorium reputed to be the largest church auditorium in the world by the Guinness Book of Records.[1] The Winners Chapel network of churches is present in over 300 cities in all states of Nigeria, as well as in over 63 cities in 32 African Nations, Dubai, the United Kingdom and the United States of America. Oyedepo has been seen as one of pioneers of the Christian charismatic movement in Africa and has been referred to as one of the most powerful preachers in Nigeria.

. . . .blah blah blah blah!

No products sold, no tangible services rendered even the business model is not clear, and yet this man seem to have "grown" into riches!  and he's now measured in billions!

The intriguing question is, what exactly is the breaking point in his life? when and how did he make his first Million?  Every successful wealthy man seem to have a story in which tears, blood and sweat was shed, what exactly is this man's story?

What lessons are there to be learnt from his story?

texazzpete:
Ah, now it's clear. You main concern is that it really shouldn't be CBN's role to carry out this sort of activity. I had thought it was concern about the viability of the project that led to your ire.

Economics has never been my area of strength so i'll keep out of this argument. Perhaps there's a method to Sanusi's 'madness' though. It would be good if we get more clarity from the CBN about the direction they intend to go with this.

As for Sanusi's /CBN's plan to severely restrict the amount of cash you can collect from the bank from next year, i'm definitely not impressed.

Isn't it appropriate to argue on the viability of the project itself?

why does CBN need another hotel amidst tens of 5 star hotels across abuja?  how exactly would this project revive the country from it's endemic stagflation?

What impact does it have on the average Nigerian?

I see this as some sort of money laundering scheme.

haha. A "highly placed source"

bullshyt!

blink182:
mEN, enyojo killed it, chei

i tell you men, i just burst into laff as i read hin post, the babe wan tear my belle

enyojo:
YOU ARE WRONG THERE. WHAT IS ILLIQUID AGAIN?
IF AN ASSET IS NOT LIQUID, IT IS SOLID!
simple commonsense proves that a solid asset is better and more reliable than a liquid asset.

If you don't know what illiquid means, why should you even argue about it?

we are not talking english terms here darling, we are talking financial terms, you should have probably shut up so people don't have to put a ridiculously low value on your IQ!

1. Like I said, I'm just guessing on this. But i sure know that the entire money available to the CBN is not in CASH. But in some crazy figures documented in computers. So those are the unreal financial resources. If CBN is to print all monies, then they will have unimaginably large warehouses to keep them.

If it's those crazy figures you were refferring to, then they are as real as as daylight, they are the most liquid form of instrument available, and contrary to what you thought, they are about being tied down into some illiquid real estate asset!

joecrack:
I mean WTF with some of these guys who bring these crappy stories and put a blog that is not credible as reference,i'd googled this story and cant get any credible source commenting on it,so pls lets stop commenting on it until we are sure its for real

this is a source from guardian,
http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48038:tender-opens-for-cbns-abuja-hotel-design-competition&catid=25:property&Itemid=655

and guardian has been publishing news since 1983

blink182:
In the first bolded, you seem to be supporting Sanusi's act by citing Alan as an example then you turn around to strongly kick against it

so you actually think Alan Greenspan built some Las vegas resort? hehehe, phew!

if you can recognize the slightest saracastic statements or play on words, i don't see a reason why you should be here to begin with

he is trying to convert unreal financial resources into real profitable use

could you explain this? what are the unreal financial resources? liquid cash?

only to later confess that he is the best INEC Chief ever!

this is very debateble, and I'm among the group of naysayers who feel all those who support this notion have bubbles in place of brains.

blink182:
Edit your post, you are contradicting yourself

how??

If the Pat Utomis, Paschal Dozies, Ezekwesilis, Okonjo-iwealas, etc have not made any negative remarks about this move, then I don't think anybody here is well informed about the operations of the CBN.

this has got to pass for the dumbest thing i've heard in decades!

Until you start believing in yourself, you will forever remain stunted in terms of growth!. . .does it mean that whatever these people say, holds to be the truth and should never be challenged? gosh!!!

Must you be an economics/banking&finance major to debate on policy developments? 

if dumb people abound on Nairaland, could someone please point me where intellectuals go?

kokoA:
Do not criticize this guy for the sake of criticism. Can any one here prove that Sanusi is going against the laws of CBN? Can we stop this market women gossip please.

I expect an expert in the financial sector to post a reply to this post telling us if the CBN also has rights to embark on projects like these. Get the right information before you jump on your keyboards please

edoyad:
Wise words, it's better to avoid jumping on the band wagon. I'm still waiting to hear from someone who knows about CBNs functions.

Let's not change "Akara" to "puff puff" bullshyt is bullshyt anywhere in the world.

The CBN's funnctions are;
*****implementing monetary policy
*****determining Interest rates,  used to manage both inflation and the country's exchange rate – and ensuring that this rate takes effect via a variety of policy mechanisms
*****controlling the nation's entire money supply
******the Government's banker and the bankers' bank ("lender of last resort"
******managing the country's foreign exchange and gold reserves and the Government's stock register
******regulating and supervising the banking industry


Building fancy cinemas, malls, hotels and public toilets isn't exactly what a CBN governor should be planning, more ashamedly given the fact that the nation currently moans under soaring rates of unemployement and starvation!

The hotel being planned, even though will gulp billions, has no immediate impact on the economy overall, i wouldn't think a foreign investor would be looking to invest millions of dollars in Nigeria simply because there are fancy hotels there, the Net Present Value of this shytty project is most likely negative in the medium term!

702:
CBN undertakes 3 main fnx
1. Traditional fnx
2. Regulatory fnx &
3. Developmental fnx---they assist banks for commerce n industry. so no harm as such in constructn of 5 star hotel n conf centre,

Its only tryin 2 tap limitless opportunities in d real estate sector, huge investment, hpfully creatn of job n attrx of foreign investors

first, wtf is Traditional fnx?

Second, when talking about Developmental fnx, does that translate into building hotels? wht next? a CBN owned Cinema and restaurants?

Third, if you want to creat limitless opportunities in d real esatate sector. . blah blah blah, yur responsibility as a CBN governor should be ensuring that right people have access to cheap funds.  Inflation is soaring at the highest levels in Nigeria at the moment, yet Banks are holding this monies in their cash reserves, and our brilliant CBN governor thoughtfully decides to invest the nations resources in real estate. . . . seriously?

Is the CBN now a profit oriented org?
Isn't the real estate sector already oversaturated with big industrial players, who due to lack of land, now have resorted to sandfilling water bodies, just to make space for an extra house/hotel/office building, should the CBN really involve itself in this?
How many jobs will an hotel create? a million?

If the CBN diverts these resources into agricultural sector and ensures that rural farmers get access to cheap loans, how many jobs or families do you think this will benefit?

Sanusi must be high on some really cheap skate!

Is there some other meaning to the word "central Bank" that we should know about?

Excellento!!! now the government is a businessman who dictates commodity prices?

hahaha, your ex threatened your girlfriend and you come crying on Nairaland. . . what happened to those days when men had ballz?

2mch:
The trains are simply too old and not good enough. If the state cannot afford the project, do not go into it. Nigerians always think of today and not tomorrow. We do not have the resources to operate old trains. The masses who the trains are supposed to be for, would not be able to afford the rides, as part of the cost for maintenance will be passed to them as fare. The idea is good, the execution should also be good. He should ask himself whether the project is sustainable and affordable even after he is out of office. I do not argue with fools, and idiots content with mediocrity. It is my home state, and i ask for the best for my people. Simple. If you dont like my opinion, please take a dive off the crumbling third mainland.

The average age of trains in Britain is 20 years, and many of them are still in service.

You looked at pictures, proabably never been on a train, probably never read articles on trains, and you simply conclude they are too old?  how dumb can you get?

2mch:
As you have an opinion, so do i. Lagos state cannot afford these trains. I actually know better what i am talking about than you do, i will also not argue ridiculously and childishly with you. It is my state after all, i have a stake in the affairs. Truth be told, it is not good enough. It is too old, and too costly to maintain. When Fashola leaves, the next governor might not care too much and cut corner's. It is best he does it right than to go into it at all.

If you don't know much about trains, then you should just shut the fck up, trains, unlike cars are built to last for generations, they are not something you have to "warm" every morning!

tit:
chigozie is near right.
getting the trains from canada is 'outsourcing jobs'.
lagos needs a intra state rail line and regionally we need an east-west rail line.
we have ajaokuta steel that has been moribund for years.
turning iron-ore into steel is not like going to the moon.
and the more you do it, the better you get at it.
oyinbo were doing it 200 years ago when they did not have water closets.
they stuck at it and now they make these trains with sleek lines while we still import machets.

Think, little dolt, think!

If you have four years to improve the transport system of a state, what would you do?
Put together a team of people who have never done it before and "try it out"?

think, little dolt, think!

[quote author=EzeUche_ link=topic=668039.msg8331727#msg8331727 date=1305558242]Eko Ile, don't let your hatred for the Ndigbo come into this thread.

You can tell by the way A. Chigozie writes that she is not Igbo, but an optimistic Pan-Africanist AA.[/quote]who gives a rat's arse?

Optimistic Pan-Africanist my ugly butt!. . .the dude is simply a spoilt little Ibo roots,  born and bred in America!

ah! my bad!  I forgot Chigozie is very American!

[quote author=A.Chigozie link=topic=668039.msg8331527#msg8331527 date=1305556758][size=20pt]I'm not the one giving away African wealth to western nations, nor am I someone who thinks such things are o.k.  Liberate your colonial mindsets and build a strong Africa for and by Africans.  [/size][/quote]I simply hate it when people come in here to spit trash about someone giving away African's wealth to western nations. . . wtf?

When will people start understanding the fact that the world is a global community and the availability of skills is a zero sum game, if there are engineers with over 20 years of expertise building trains in Nigeria, why couldn't they just come out and let their works speak for itself?

Except if of course what you are suggesting is that we should entrust billions into the hands of people who lack needed expertise or experience {which in my own opinion, sounds extremely fo'olish} only to spend millions treating accident victims and compesating families of train crash victims, simply because in your own words, "we shouldn't give Oyinbo, africa's wealth". . .

. . . . .should we also consider it a joke that you are probably making postings from the USA even though you're African?  I bet you schooled there as well, are there no good schools in Africa?. . . .if you were truly patriotic as you would have us believe, you shouldn't even be spending a dime in any sector of the western economy.