₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje:
Well the Delta governor Said many things, and one of the things we touched me personally was when he narrated how he travelled to lagos to see pastor CHRIS during some election crisis. He said the thing pastor Chris asked him was. "WHAT WILL YOU DO FOR YOUR PEOPLE." . By that making him to understand that the point of contact for success in such situation is determination to deliver result .He said when he came into that birthday dinner , the first thing pastor Chris asked him again was the same question."WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR YOUR PEOPLE?"

aletheia:
I would have agreed with this statement except for the portions in bold. Seems like splitting hairs, I know, but it leaves enough wiggle room for one to argue that works do save.

Zikkyy: Are we saved by just doing the work bit? i will say No, but you cannot have a work-less faith. And that's why i'll say faith and works are inseparable.

aletheia:
Remember that you have not really given a satisfactory answer to the issue of the thief on the cross because his faith did not produce any visible work that we could see

aletheia:
The way I understand the relationship between faith and works is as follows:
1. Only by faith are we saved (Eph 2:8-9).

aletheia:
2. If our faith is real. . .then it will produce good works

aletheia:
3. Only God knows what constitutes real faith. . .and thus what is good works.

aletheia:
3. Only the works of real or genuine faith can be regarded as good works.

aletheia:
4. Some works that appear to be good works to us are not. . .because the faith is false.

aletheia:
It may be I am too rigid in my understanding of faith.

aletheia:
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, [size=14pt]not according to our works[/size], but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
[2Ti 1:9]

aletheia:
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[Titus 3:5]

aletheia:
These verses do suggest predestination by God in eternity past; how God works it out in time is beyond me. . .

Pastor AIO:
So conclusion:  Works do not save, but works are a sign of salvation.  Therefore if you don't do works, then you cannot be saved.  The works will no save you but it will allow us to know whether or not you are saved.

aletheia:
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 13:20-21.

aletheia:
Second, [size=14pt]if they abandon the work[/size], then it probably [size=14pt]an indication that they were not saved to begin with[/size]. (By their fruits you shall know them). That one is part of the crowd that calls itself Christian does not mean they are.

aletheia:
That one is part of the crowd that calls itself Christian does not mean they are.

aletheia:
I fail to see the conflict. 

aletheia:
The thief's request was an acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord, a working out of his faith in Jesus

aletheia:
. .do you realize both thieves asked Jesus to save them?! Why was only one saved? Look again at the passage.

aletheia:
And doesn't this precisely show that no additional work is needed beyond Jesus Christ's blood for the salvation of souls? If the thief did no work and yet was saved. . .what does that tell us?

aletheia:
If you believe that God knows all; why balk at the fact that from the beginning, God knew those who will have been saved at the last, and knowing this made provision for them to be saved.

aletheia:
We often find this confusing because we do not gaze upward beyond ourselves to Christ Jesus. Too often we stop at Philippians 2:12. . .

aletheia:
. . .without proceeding on to Philippians 2:13

aletheia:
. . .but did the thief on the cross really present himself? Did he play a role in his salvation?

aletheia:
The thief died that day on the cross. He had no further opportunity after a lifetime of depravity to do good works. . .and yet he was saved.

aletheia:
The reason (in my opinion) we think we have a role to play is because we are clouded by traditions concerning the nature of the gospel of Jesus. We have fallen prey to decisionism.

aletheia:
When we truthfully examine ourselves, can we say in all conscience that we have loved the Lord God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our mind, and with all our strength. There have been times when our minds wandered, our hearts faltered and our strength waned (including today). . .at such times weren't we in transgression of this command. And being in transgression of this command everyday of our lives (because our love for God is not perfect), what can save us except the atoning blood of Jesus?

aletheia:
Not robots. Christians are saved.

aletheia:
Still using the illustration of the child. He is dressed in a clean white robe which has already been washed spotless. He puts it on and goes out into the daily grind amidst admonitions to keep it unsoiled (what we see in scriptures). The truth is that the child's best efforts (his works) cannot keep the robe clean, rather only the One who cleaned it can keep it spotless.

aletheia:
When a child is born. . .the neural pathways that will enable him to walk and run are present, but it needs to learn how to walk and run from the examples of others around him. Barring any untoward incident, the child will walk.

aletheia:
What is written in James etc are exhortations, reminders, examples for Christians to see and learn from. . .which is why the word "grow" occurs in the Bible.

aletheia:
It is the walk in holiness that is characterized as works. . .but we know that this only arises because he has been made holy.

aletheia:
It is God's sovereign choice. Just as you did not decide for your parents that you should be born;

aletheia:
It is God's sovereign choice. Just as you did not decide for your parents that you should be born; [size=14pt]even so we have no input into being born from above.[/size] Or how do you read John 1:13. If it says born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.. . .[size=14pt]what then can be our role in the process?[/size]

aletheia:
that's how it is with the Christian. He has been transformed. Dying in Christ and being born anew with a new, divine and holy nature.

OLAADEGBU:
Can you be more specific on what your objections are?

aletheia:
Genuine faith comes from God as a gift. It cannot be willed into existence by men.

aletheia:
The bearing of [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit (representing works) is hard-coded into the [size=14pt]good[/size] seed's DNA. The seed therefore has no choice but has a genetic imperative to bear [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit.

Joagbaje:
It will only be deserted by the abusive agberos posters . They will either change or be [size=5pt]Banned[/size] but more responsible posters will emerge world wide, and this section will be a world class resource Center.

Joagbaje:
maybe if o Some of us are allowed to donate towards that. especially if I become moderator.

aletheia:
And what is faith? Do you understand faith to be mere assent of the Lordship of Christ? It is not. If you have genuine faith. . .then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow.

OLAADEGBU:
Thus, we can not only have salvation, but also assurance of salvation if we love and guard His Word, seek to keep His commandments, and love all others of like precious faith.  Finally we have the indwelling witness of the Spirit.  "Hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us" (1 John 3:24). HMM

Joagbaje:
Some of us are allowed to donate towards that. especially if I become moderator.

dare2think:
A company that sells air crafts without a name.

Joagbaje:
Why not find out , at least from his members here.

OLAADEGBU:
True saving faith inevitably will manifest itself in works of righteousness.

firegirl:
hello pals
i am firegirl not taskgirl

firegirl:
A guy was a drunkard, he went to drink with his friends, he slept off and they left him, he heard peolple singing praises wen he woke up, he joined and on the following sunday,he came to church and Daddy asked people who were interested to make it BIG should come out for a seed of 1k(one thousand naira), he didnt have a dim, he borrowed from some1 he happen to know and he sowed the seed, that week he was favoured wit 30k, he came back the following sunday and sowed a seed of 10k after pating his tithe, that same week he was favoured with 300k, he came back and gave a testimony and sowed a seed of 100k and that week he was given a contract 10million, he came back again and sowed a seed, the following week he got 3 international contracts worth 54billion,

garyarnold:
7 - The crime is so carefully crafted and executed that most church goers will yell AMEN!

taskgirl:
Seven, we know that Jesus was rich because of the kind of clothes He wore! He wore “designers”! “Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout” (John 19:23).

Joagbaje:
The only reason he would not have countered it is that it's true.

Sagamite:
You must be dumbed to conclude: since it was not challenged then it must be true. That is a cretinous deduction.

newmi:
l thought to myself is it possible that l am being deceived? Is there a chance to suggest that l am being or have been brain washed?

Hmmmmmm but again l reason and consider isn't the word of God there for all to see and understand

Pastor Kun:
It is quite evident you created this. Thread to spark controversy knowing fully well in your heart of heart that pastor chris is fraudulent character with no morals or regard for God hence he deserves no respect.

Joagbaje:
That means you have the ability to love like God, but you have to make a choice to walk in love, for love is a choice – you choose to love!

God doesn’t make you love someone; He’s already put His love in your spirit and now it’s up to you to let it out. Learn to relate with people from God’s perspective. See them the way God sees them, and that’s the right way to live. If you walk in love, you won’t steal, slander or malign anyone.

wordtalk:
1. No, I did not imply or assert that we give "only when" there is reward.

2. And no, I did not assert or imply anywhere that anyone's act of love should be 'dependent' on any rewards.

wordtalk:
Hahaha!! You are one very funny fellow!!

wordtalk:
In just the same way, you can derive your answer to your question posed earlier.

wordtalk:
Let me elaborate. The guy is often borrowing from the very people he has been preaching his anti-tithing arguments to. With all his "freewill offerings" (sorry, 'love-driven' so-and-so), he is reduced to begging borrowing. Worse yet, he has three kids to feed daily. . . and his favourite text of the NT? Luke 6:35 - "give LEND, hoping for nothing again" - he claims it is his Christian right to ask others to give LEND him whatever he needs and expect nothing in return.

wordtalk:
Did I assert anywhere that anyone's act of love should be 'dependent' on any rewards? What I tried to say was that giving is taught as reciprocal in both the OT and NT. 'Reciprocal' does not run contrary to acts driven by love.

wordtalk:
Did I argue anywhere that we give only when there is reward? Did I? If I did not, what is bringing you to such a conclusion?

wordtalk:
People give not because they must first attach a reward - whatever such would be.

wordtalk:
I also know of another anti-tither who tried all his best to stop others from giving. In all his arguments about 'love-driven giving', he remains broke today. Could I also ask you: how come his anti-tithing arguments and rule did not better his life?

wordtalk:
In that manner, giving is reciprocal. "Give, and it shall be given unto you" (Luke 6:38) is a fundamental axiom - and that is also 'love-driven'.

wordtalk:
In that manner, giving is reciprocal. "Give, and it shall be given unto you" (Luke 6:38) is a fundamental axiom - and that is also 'love-driven'.

wordtalk:
However, I think many Christians often confuse this idea 'love-driven' giving for lending on interest in Luke 6:35 (KJV) -

[list]'But love ye your enemies, and do good, and LEND, HOPING FOR NOTHING AGAIN; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.'[/list]

The word 'LEND' in that verse is 'daneizō', defined by Strong's G1155 as "to loan on interest; reflexively to borrow".

When Christ said to 'lend, hoping for nothing again', it appears He was highlighting what the Law of Moses already stipulated in Leviticus 25:35-36 about taking no usury (i.e., "interest" on loans/lending/debts among the Jews.

bros12345:
Answer: The principles do not work in isolation.

bros12345:
Answer:

My dear, life is a circle of input and output. The heavens gives the earth rain. Then the earth evaporates those same water back to the sky and helps life production, then those evaporated water comes back to the earth in multiplied formats again. That's the circle.

Man feeds the elephant and the elephant produces huge manure that fertilizes what feeds man back. Its a circle.

bros12345:
You donate and /or give to support good causes and nature creates avenues to bring back into your life in good measure.

bros12345:
Answer: All kinds of giving are of equal importance. That you tithe does not mean you should not help others and that you help others does not mean that you should not tithe.

bros12345:
Thanks

Enigma:
Jobalua/Azibagbaje

bros12345:
Son, let me lecture you a bit.

bros12345:
Principles like giving, creative thinking, persistence, meditation, hard work, etc, will always push you to the top in life.

Joagbaje:
God doesn't need tithe. We are the one that needs to conquer our greed by giving. There are two important things about our givings. They are honour to a God. Man cannot worship a God without giving and sacrifices. The second part of our giving is our ability to deal with greed.

bros12345:
In the garden of eden, the forbidden fruit was to be Adam and Eve's tithe. God could have asked them to chopulate every [size=14pt]damn[/size] thing there,